03/12/14 – Jason Leopold – The Scott Horton Show

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I'm Scott Horton.
This is my show, The Scott Horton Show.
And you know, I used to be concerned about this hunger strike down at Guantanamo Bay.
And a bunch of people who, most of them were kidnapped and sold for bounties by the Pakistani military to the U.S. Army back in 2001 and 2002.
Never charged with a crime.
No evidence against them.
Held forever without trial.
And here they are trying to starve themselves to death.
The only way they can commit suicide.
But now I've come to understand that's not really a problem anymore because they've called off their hunger strikes.
They're no longer trying to starve themselves to death.
Now they're just on long-term non-religious fasts, which sounds to me like it probably doesn't hurt too bad.
Isn't that right?
Jason Leopold's on the line.
He's now writing for Vice.com.
Welcome to the show.
How are you doing?
Hey, Scott.
Great to be with you.
Yeah.
Long-term non-religious fast, huh?
Long-term non-religious fast.
The mangling of phrases and words and introduction of new euphemisms at Guantanamo continues.
That's my favorite part of 1984, honestly.
I mean, even when I was in high school and I first read it, that was my favorite part was when Winston's neighbor or his co-worker at the Ministry of Truth, I guess, I think he sees him in the cafeteria and the guy's like, Hey, check it out, man.
We got the 11th edition of the New Speak Dictionary.
It's got fewer words than ever before.
We're really narrowing everything down and beating the life out of all terminology in the world.
Well, you have to wonder if that's what they're thinking.
I mean, you know, this follows the use of phrases such as humane restraints, which is what they call, you know, the shackles.
And they actually say that to us when we're down there.
When we say restraints, they will say, I mean, when we say shackles, they'll say, Oh, you mean the humane restraints?
You know, we're corrected when we talk about Guantanamo as being a prison.
They say there is no prison here.
It's a detention facility.
And they're very, very serious about it.
But I have to tell you, Scott, this is just amazing.
Because, I mean, in previous standard operating procedures, and that's what this is, this is a standard operating procedure that the medical personnel of Guantanamo uses with the prisoners, who, by the way, we're also told we can't refer to them as prisoners.
They're detainees.
That, you know, this is what they use to manage the hunger strikers.
But the fact that they literally stripped out any reference to hunger strike is just stunning.
In fact, the title of the SOP previously had the, you know, the term hunger strike in it.
This has been renamed Medical Management of Detainees with Weight Loss.
That's what they call this.
I think Orwell must have been thinking of the U.S. military above and beyond when he was writing about the Newspeak.
I mean, they really are the masters of this kind of jargon on all levels.
That's even the George Carlin skit, right?
It was like, these guys measure nuclear radiation in something they call sunshine units.
They're at war with the truth more than anything else.
Well, they're really, you know, they really do not want this to be seen as, you know, anything other than it's weight loss.
It has nothing to do with a political protest, that the medical personnel should not even think about, you know, this in terms of, you know, the politics or their detention, that it's just they're losing weight and this is what your job is.
And, you know, there's a...
It's like they're animals in a zoo.
Exactly.
Take all the humanity out of it.
It's not a medical condition or a crisis of a human being.
It's just a waste that needs thickening.
Exactly.
It's, you know, it certainly, you know, strips out the, you know, any sort of, I guess if it were to come up, if it were to conjure up any images or feelings or emotions with regard to, you know, these are prisoners.
These are, my words now, you know, prisoners that are, you know, protesting their indefinite detention.
And there's just, there's nothing there.
And, you know, keep in mind that this is a document that was, by the way, I obtained this document through a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit.
I have a, I currently have seven Freedom of Information Act lawsuits against the government, Scott.
This one pertains to a lawsuit against the Department of Defense in which I'm seeking more than a hundred, or rather I have a hundred different FOIAs that they, you know, failed to comply with.
So this is, you know, one document that was released.
And so it wasn't for public consumption previously.
This was just an internal document.
So just the fact that even on the internal, you know, just internally that they don't want to think about this this way, that's what's even amazing.
It's not just that they're telling us in the media or telling the public that they're not even referring it to, referring to it as a hunger strike.
They're even inside, for the folks that are there every day, they are, you know, they're in a fog.
They're in a completely whole different world where this doesn't exist.
Well, and Orwell would say it's for them especially, right?
What's that?
Orwell would say all the propaganda is for them especially more than anyone else, right?
And us trolls are allowed to think what we want because we can't do anything about it.
But the people who are implementing this stuff, they have to believe or they won't do their job right.
Exactly.
And I think that's what makes this such a great example of, you know, the newspeak and everything that you're raising here with regard to, you know, with regard to Orwell and how Orwellian this all is.
Because this is literally their own internal, you know, instructional manual and guidebook.
And, you know, this is the third time, by the way, that these hunger strike protocols have been altered or changed in 2013.
And I believe we spoke last year when I obtained the other version which was in May of 2013 which was completely unredacted, by the way.
That was simply, I didn't even file a FOIA for that.
That actually was just given to me when I asked.
And they certainly didn't make that mistake again.
But, you know, that one mentioned hunger strike.
It also contained information about when you're placed into the restraint chair and the mask you have to wear over your mouth.
This doesn't have any of that.
This just simply, you know, there's whole redacted pages.
So, you know, in terms of really understanding what has changed on the physical level, like, you know, whether it's a certain number of pounds, that is hard to tell because it's not there.
That's why the whole non-religious fact, you know, just stuck out.
And, you know, 2013 was a mass hunger strike at Guantanamo.
And the timing of this, of this particular document, you know, it's certainly interesting because they implemented this.
Just as they also implemented a new policy in which they would no longer provide the media with any information about the number of hunger strikers, the number of prisoners who were being force-fed, nothing.
And so in the past three to four months, there's been a blackout, a media blackout at Guantanamo where we just cannot obtain any information about the operation, about what's happening.
Yeah, you know, I mean, this is the thing of it too.
I mean, all these guys, they're not really trying to starve themselves to death, right?
They are in effect, but only they're doing it in this most horrible slow motion fashion to try to get our attention under the theory that, you know, there's any kind of democratic authority held in the hands of the people of America that we might do the right thing and force our government to do the right thing and give them a shot before a judge, you know, something, some kind of due process or charges or something to relieve them of their condition, this purgatory that they're stuck in, this legal black hole.
And yet when it was getting through and it was such a major news story last spring, the military's decision, as you describe it, to just clamp down on the information worked.
That was it.
And now they're just starving themselves to death and nobody's even taking notice anymore because they were able to just clamp down on the information.
So this was starting to become a thing in the news cycle.
Well, let's check in on the hunger strike down at Guantanamo, not just on this show, but on TV from time to time.
And all that's over now.
Yes.
They're just dying now.
It's completely over.
And, you know, I mean, keep in mind that, you know, we just can't get that information.
We don't know, you know, what's happening there because they, you know, obviously refuse to provide the information.
But I was there in December.
Well, I mean, Clive Stafford Smith has this thing about a client of his who's suing to stop his force feeding.
So it's still going on with some of them, even if we don't know all the numbers.
Yes.
And he just they just filed a lawsuit yesterday.
And that's a pretty historic lawsuit because it would actually possibly be the first time that a court would, you know, sort of weigh in on this and take a look at everything.
And by the way, this standard operating procedure fits, you know, very nicely with that lawsuit.
You know, they also filed a version of this standard operating procedure with their, you know, with their lawsuit.
But, you know, the description of what he was going through, what that particular prisoner was being subjected to, it's horrific.
I mean, it's very difficult reading.
But when I was there in December, Scott, the, you know, the military officials basically said, the reason we are not providing you with any more information or the reason that we stopped providing you with information about the hunger strikers is because the hunger strikers were too, you know, they were successful in attracting media attention.
And we simply don't want to help them with that.
And they were very, very open.
And in admitting that, that, you know, hey, look, they got media attention and we don't want to help them get media attention.
So we're not giving you that info anymore.
Right.
Because it's all about, you know, giving in to terrorists or something like that.
It's not about telling the American people who have the right to know about what's happening under their, you know, the color of their authority, supposedly.
That's the last consideration in mind here.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, you know, and, you know, just to bring up your point about the, you know, about the fact that, you know, given some due process rights.
I mean, look, you know, it's, we just passed 12 years.
You and I will be talking about the same exact issues in the months ahead.
I think that there is a certain level of fatigue that's setting in, if you can believe it.
You know, on the military side, they don't want to be bothered with this anymore.
They want this to simply just sort of disappear.
And, you know, as I mentioned, they've been very successful at that certainly over the past three or four months because there hasn't been any information coming out.
But when you do finally get an opportunity to obtain some info in the form of, say, a standard operating procedure like this, you really get an understanding of how little has changed.
You know, they are continuing to operate to some degree, you know, in the same way that they have been for, you know, for more than a decade.
All right, y'all.
It's Jason Leopold now writing over at Vice.com.
And this one is called Guantanamo now calls hunger strikes long-term non-religious fasts.
We'll be right back after this.
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All right, y'all.
Welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton.
I'm talking with Jason Leopold.
This one's for Vice.com.
News.
Vice.com.
Guantanamo now calls hunger strikes long-term non-religious fasts.
A.K.A. attempted suicide avoided only through torture.
The torture of the force-feeding.
Now, can you describe a little bit in real terms, if your six-year-old is listening, maybe change the channel back to pop music or something there.
Can you explain what it really means to tie somebody down and force-feed them Ensure brand products there, Jason, down at Guantanamo?
You know, I mean, there's obviously been much discussion about what that entails.
And there have been medical professionals that said that the way that they do it at Guantanamo rises to the level of torture.
And there have been, you know, other people, for example, the medical officers that I've spoken with, when I went to visit Guantanamo, said, oh, this is, you know, it's painless.
It's not really, you know, this is no big deal.
I do the same thing in hospitals.
But what they're doing is, is that, you know, they are, for the most part, the prisoners who refuse any meals and their weight drops to a certain level, that they need to be, you know, that they need to be force-fed, or what they call, again, some new speak here, enteral feeding, that, you know, they're taken to a restraint chair by force, you know, with shackles, with a guard force.
They're put into that restraint chair, and it's a six-point restraint.
So your head is restrained, your arms, your ankles, and they have a tube, you know, a tube shoved up their nose until it reaches their stomach.
And, you know, they'll test it out with, to make sure, you know, with water, to make sure that it actually reached their stomach.
And then through a bag, they, you know, like an intravenous type bag, they'll start pumping in that liquid and sure.
And they're doing this against their will.
So, again, that's what's so important here, is that when you go to a hospital, obviously, if you have no choice, you can't eat.
Okay, you know, this is what you're, you know, what's being done to you.
These are people who are resisting.
And so that, you know, the World Medical Association said if they can make, you know, their own choices about their refusing to eat, you have to respect it.
Here, you know, they're, you know, they're going through what many have said is a very, very painful process, because of, you know, certainly the way they're moving around, that there's been claims that the tubes are being shoved through, you know, in their nose without any lubrication, pulled out, there's blood, there's vomiting.
When they use like an extra thick gauge hose that they don't need to use as well, right?
That's what's been said as well.
I mean, you know, keep in mind that the attorneys, you know, are getting this information from the prisoners.
And when we try to follow it up in the media, you know, the folks at Guantanamo say absolutely not, that's not true, we're using the proper, you know, the proper tubes.
But, you know, there's been talk that they're, you know, they're making this as painful as possible in order to stop the hunger strike, to get them to, you know, stop their long-term non-religious fast.
Accusations which are a lot more believable than a lot of the ones being leveled against these people that are the excuse for holding them there in the first place.
Some of whom haven't even been accused of anything.
Correct.
Yeah, and that's, you know, I mean, that's...
That's one way to measure it, you know.
That's what's just so crazy about this, Scott.
I mean, you know, there's hunger strikes actually happening here in the U.S. as well.
So, in immigration jails recently, actually as of yesterday, there are, you know, ICE is holding, you know, a bunch of people.
And so in Washington State, you have two dozen ICE detainees who are being, you know, who are just placed in medical, under medical watch because they're on hunger strike.
So, you know, this whole idea is, it's a protest.
They, too, are protesting their confinement.
You know, up in Pelican Bay, you know, you have the hunger strikers who are protesting their placement in solitary confinement.
What stands out about Guantanamo is that when they resort to force-feeding, you know, this is not like they're going to a judge, you know, and saying, Hey, your honor, this is what we need to do, and they're considering it.
This is a policy that ultimately the last word, the person who has the last word on this to sign off on it is the commander of Joint Task Force Guantanamo.
So, it's not even a doctor who, you know, gets the final, final word.
I mean, a doctor sort of, you know, weighs in on it.
It's, you know, it's their policy.
And so, it differs dramatically from what they say happens at the, you know, Bureau of Prisons or, you know, even in, you know, with regard to immigration.
But who knows what's happening there right now?
I mean, you know, I can't even tell you what, you know, the number of hunger strikers there are currently.
But if you read that lawsuit that was filed yesterday for, you know, one prisoner who hasn't even been accused, or rather hasn't been charged, and what he's saying and his account of what's been happening, it's horrific.
I mean, they're saying that they've been pumping in the fluid so quickly that it's causing, you know, it's certainly causing him to vomit, but then causing this, you know, distension of the intestines.
When you put liquid into, you know, a body, particularly in that form, the way that they are, so quickly, it can also lead to pneumonia.
That's one of the side effects, actually, believe it or not, from force feeding.
And from what he's claiming, that, you know, there are steps that they're taking, that they're trying to break this hunger strike.
And so they are apparently, allegedly, implementing these new procedures.
Man, you know, I don't know.
Maybe I should do like Colbert and get in the satire business and just work hard on setting all these things up to trick everybody into thinking we're talking about foreign countries that we need to invade for the first half of it, you know, and then, but every time it ends up we're talking about America at the end.
Are you kidding me?
This is the kind of thing where if it was any other country, it would be our government's talking point of why it's okay for us to kill them.
Because we're saving them from the kind of people who would do this to them.
Like even Andrew Sullivan went and found where if you translate from the original German, it literally, the SS documents translate directly to enhanced interrogation techniques.
Right.
This is, we are really, and maybe this has always been the American way.
Some would certainly argue, but right now, I mean, we're way past the point of embracing this and allowing this to just roll on with no accountability whatsoever.
No one even seems to care anymore but you.
Yeah, well, where, you know, I'm still certainly just, you know, fascinated by it.
And I think it's just important it gets reported.
But, you know, I think that we've become so used to hearing these types of stories, reading about this, that in a way we're sort of desensitized to it.
You know, there's, I'm not even sure what new revelation, you know, could be made.
It's really funny.
Just, you know, just, again, with this particular document, Scott, you know, I went through it.
It's 24 pages.
It's attached to the story if people want to read it.
I looked through it.
There were certainly things I could have brought up in terms of the medical aspects of this, what they're doing, you know, with regard to the, you know, the force feeding and the hunger strike.
But I've reported that so many times.
What really stood out, honestly, was the fact that they renamed this a long-term non-religious fast.
You know, and that hunger strike doesn't appear in a hunger strike standard operating procedure.
It does not, it's not there at all.
And so, to me, that was just, you know...
I mean, you're right.
In a way, the fact that they would resort to this euphemism is the most newsworthy part of it.
Not necessarily the most important part of it, but the most newsworthy part.
And it's outrageous.
It is almost as outrageous as what it is that they're doing, that they're going to go ahead and just lie in the name of the damn thing, you know?
Yeah.
Come on.
Yeah, yeah.
And so, you know, it was...
I knew that, like, well, if I were to focus on that, I think that will get, you know, the attention of people.
And by the way, has it gotten any kind of TV attention or anything like that?
It hasn't.
And I'm not surprised at that.
You know, I think that...
It's catchy, though, you know?
It could.
Yeah, yeah.
It's just...
The military never sees it to a man.
No, see, here's NBCNews.com.
Picked you up right here three hours ago.
They credit the Miami Herald.
Oh, yes.
Yes, that's a little point of contention there that I have with that particular report, which failed to provide proper credit, as they often do, when I obtained these documents via FOIA.
Yeah.
So...
Well, that's too bad.
Well, it must be Carol Rosenberg, but did she give you credit at least?
No.
No, and that's part of the problem.
Very typical.
Happens often.
I've become used to it.
Yeah.
Wow.
You know what matters the most is that you're doing the work, and I know you feel that way about it in the first place, and that's why you do such good work.
Otherwise, you'd be just reporting on football games and making a lot of money.
Exactly.
So...
Well, thanks, Scott.
It comes down to it.
If what it takes is taking your name off it to get NBC to look at it, then damn it.
I'm sorry, Jason, but I guess we're just going to have to carry on.
Yeah.
That is too bad, though, about Carol Rosenberg.
I'm sorry to hear that she would do you that way.
Well, you know, as I indicated, I've got this FOIA lawsuit.
There will be plenty of more documents hopefully coming soon, so I do feel confident that we'll be able to continue to put out some news about Guantanamo, and I appreciate you taking the time to cover it, Scott.
Cool.
Well, thank you very much for coming on the show, as always, Jason.
I really appreciate it.
My pleasure.
I'll speak to you soon.
All right.
That's Jason Leopold, everybody, at vice.com.
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