02/26/14 – Justin Raimondo – The Scott Horton Show

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All right, y'all, welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton.
This is my show, The Scott Horton Show.
And our first guest on the show today is Justin Raimondo.
He's editorial director of antiwar.com, and writes there three times a week at antiwar.com slash Justin.
It'll forge you on there anyway.
Antiwar.com slash Justin.
He's also the author of Reclaiming the American Right, The Lost Legacy of the Conservative Movement, and Enemy of the State, The Life of Murray and Rothbard.
Welcome back to the show, Justin.
How you doing?
It's great to be back on my favorite radio show.
Oh, very nice of you to say there.
Good to have you back here.
So listen, your most recent piece at antiwar.com is called A World of Trouble.
And you echo sentiments of Eric Margulies on the show last week, where he talks about how the current situation with America blundering around over there in Eastern Europe right now kind of reminds him of the setup to World War I.
And it seems like, at least to some eyes, to yours and his, where maybe the rest of the world, you know, it's completely passing them by, you seem to think that the Obama administration is in the process of getting us into at least possibly a real crisis in terms of our relationship with the Russians right now.
Is that about right?
Yeah, that's about right.
What's happening is that, you know, these various powers are, you know, engaging in these alliances.
And we have one with, you know, the government of Ukraine, or, you know, the now government, you know, it's very dangerous.
All right.
So, well, let me ask you this.
Why does America, or why does the American government have such an interest in Ukraine anyway?
They're sitting on a bunch of oil or something?
Well, you know, it's the gateway to Central Asia.
Pipelines have to go through Ukraine to reach Europe.
So that's the prize.
But it's not just that.
It's the Cold War, you know, a new Cold War that, you know, we're all seeing now.
You know, like with the Olympics, you know, you couldn't have missed the huge propaganda anti-Russian campaign being waged in media.
You know, Putin is Stalin.
That's been going on for a couple of years, but now it's reached a climax of hysteria.
And now it's the, oh, he's anti-gay and blah, blah, blah.
You know, but they'll use any issue to really hit him over the head with.
Yeah, it's not like they really care.
Obama's only been, you know, politically correct on the marriage issue for two and a half years now or something like that.
So he's not that far out ahead of Putin, I don't think.
Yeah, but it's very interesting.
What's happening is that in this new Cold War, what you see is the complete role reversal.
I mean, it used to be that the Russians were pushing this, you know, revolution now, you know, let's subvert all these governments, let's overthrow all these governments which were supported by the US.
And I had an international revolutionary movement that was dedicated to that.
And now it's America that is sponsoring revolutionary movements all across the world.
Of course, you know, the idea is to install governments that are, you know, like subordinate to Washington.
But, I mean, it's interesting how, you know, Russia is now the conservative force in world politics, and we are the revolutionaries.
Now, also, talk about what's been going on in Ukraine since last November and the American role in it, as you understand it.
Well, we've been pouring millions of dollars into Ukraine's opposition movement ever since the Orange Revolution.
We supported Yushchenko and his allies.
And back in 2004.
Yes, and it's pretty astonishing what's happening now.
I mean, if you look at the character of the Ukrainian opposition, what you see is a motley collection of anti-Semites, Neo-Nazis, and out-of-office oligarchs.
These are the new freedom fighters.
All right, now, come on, who are you, Morris Dees or something?
You're telling me there's real Nazis involved over there?
Well, there actually are real Nazis over there, and they are involved.
Let's look at some of these people.
First of all, there's Svoboda, which is called the Freedom Party, but its actual name was originally the Social National Party.
Get it?
National Socialism, Social National.
So, yeah, kind of a little wink-wink there.
And their leader, whose name I'm going to try and pronounce, Ole Pianibok, was expelled from the Parliament for denouncing the pro-Russian Party of Regents, which is Yanukovych's party, as a Jewish Mafia, quote-unquote.
And so he was kicked out of Parliament, but let back in, I guess.
And what were they doing on New Year's Day?
Well, you know, the opposition had a big rally at the Maidan, and they put on a little play, which was called The Zid.
Now, what does Zid mean in Ukrainian?
Well, I'm not going to even say it with a radio.
Yeah, I think everybody understands the context, yeah.
Right, I mean, it's an anti-Jewish epithet.
And it was all about how Zid was a stereotypical Orthodox Jewish wheeler-dealer character, and he explained to the crowd that his various occupations included banking, stock market speculation, hosting a TV talk show, and loan sharking.
And he sang a song in which one of the lines was, let's see if I can recall it, East and West belong to me, our people are everywhere, quote-unquote.
Now, the play goes on, and of course, the entire leadership of the opposition was sitting in the audience, and they were applauding this, including the people who are now in line to be president of Ukraine and prime minister.
And they're now our favored candidates over there, and they were applauding this.
And, you know, the play went on, you know, talking about the birth of Jesus, and how Zid was collaborating with Herod, and then he decides to join the protesters, and he switches sides, joins the opposition, when he learns that on orders from the king, the Yanukovych forces are preparing to kill all Jewish firstborns.
So, of course, the message here is that Jews only care about themselves.
I mean, it's just like a neo-Nazi play, and there were tens of thousands of people sitting around celebrating this.
How is this possible?
That's what I want to know.
I mean, why is no one in the media, which is very sensitive to any kind of ethnic slur, especially here in the West, why are we not hearing about this?
I mean, how come I had to read it in the Jewish Telegraphic Agency report, and that's it?
Well, not only that, I mean, there was an attack on a Jewish synagogue or something, and the head rabbi in Ukraine has now come out, and this may be an overreaction to some degree, but I don't know, at least it's newsworthy in and of itself that he said all Jews should get out of Ukraine right now while the getting is good.
Well, not only that, but he said that the Israeli embassy had told him to tell his people to stay inside, and if I were them, I would do that, or I would get out of the country.
Well, and there are many pictures of the mobs down in the Maiden Square there with their proud Nazi lightning SS symbols, swastikas, and iron crosses, and Hitler salutes, and there's not much dispute about it.
I don't think Max Blumenthal did a great write-up for Alternet going through the evidence as well.
Right.
You know, the symbol of the Svoboda Party is the old SS symbol.
Their hero is Stepan Bandera, I think his name is, or Bander or something, who was the leader of the pro-Nazi uh, you know, fighting force in World War II that fought the Red Army, and significantly, I mean, you know, you have to look at how these forces are playing out.
So people are estimating that about 30% of the people in the Maiden, you know, the hardcore activists are actually neo-Nazis.
So why are we supporting this?
Why, I mean, why is U.S. taxpayer money being shipped to Ukraine?
Right.
Yeah, Timoshenko, she might be a corporatist type of fascist, but not a, she doesn't necessarily have to have a brown shirt army, but we're going ahead and buying her one anyway, it looks like.
Well, I mean, she's an anti-communist, she's anti-Russian.
So all these groups have one thing in common, and that is nationalism, or rather, ultra-nationalism.
So they hate the Russians.
I mean, politics is about who do you hate?
That, you know, that's the question.
And there, it's the Russians.
So they're all united in that.
And, you know, I guess they'll fight over the spoils after, you know, they come to power, and they have come to power.
Alright, well, we have very little time here, but I wanted to bring up a Robert Perry piece on this subject where, you know, he sort of is acquitting his buddy Obama he loves so much, but he's, he may have a point, I think, about the neocons themselves are really what they're doing here is they're trying to disrupt the Iran talks by driving a wedge between America and Russia under any excuse before this final nuclear deal can get done.
What do you think about that?
Well, you mean the Syria talks?
You don't mean the Iran talks?
Yeah, the Iran talks, that it's all about, you know, creating a difference between us and Russia before the final deal can be made over Iran, because that's all they care about, is Likud.
Well, I mean, I don't quite agree with that.
You know, I think it has much to do with, you know, Syria, and this new, I mean, well, Putin...
Hold it right there.
Syria, Iran, Ukraine, it's just Armando, antiwar.com slash Justin, coup in Kiev, and also I forgot the latest one after that.
Anyway, we'll be right back after this.
Hey, you own a business?
Maybe we should consider advertising on the show.
See if we can make a little bit of money.
My email address is scott at scott horton dot org.
All right, y'all.
Welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton.
This is my show, The Scott Horton Show.
I'm talking with Justin Armando from antiwar.com, antiwar.com slash Justin, about the coup in Kiev, America's recent regime change, with the help of some neo-Nazis in the state of Ukraine over there.
And now, where we left off, I was asking you about Robert Perry's thesis that there may be a little bit of insubordination going on here with the wife of Robert Kagan, who's the undersecretary of state for EU affairs or whatever it is, you know, perhaps deliberately saying what she said about F the EU and all that controversy on an open line.
I don't know if Perry makes that connection.
But anyway, pushing so hard to make a controversy out of Ukraine in a way just to secure their more important interest, which is trying to sabotage the Iran talks by driving a wedge between America and Russia on the Security Council and the P5 plus one and all that.
And then you were saying, well, I don't know.
What about Syria?
So what about Syria?
Well, I mean, you know, Syria is being brokered by Putin.
He, he, he got Assad to, you know, give up the, the chem weapons.
And so that alone, you know, he outflanked Obama on, on that score.
So that alone is, you know, reason to, you know, like, go after him.
But I mean, they don't need that reason, because Putin has been an articulate spokesman you know, against us hegemonism.
I mean, he alone has stood up to the US and said, well, wait a minute, you know, you know, all of this, you know, like invading countries.
I mean, he has been very articulate, much more articulate than I am on that subject.
Yeah, I wish they'd give him a regular spot in the New York Times.
His most recent piece and it was great, you know, replace Tom Friedman for all time.
Exactly.
In fact, he should replace Tom Friedman.
I would actually read the New York Times then and actually subscribe to it.
As it is, I can't because, you know, they keep asking for money and I say, well, no, it's not really worth it.
All right.
Now, so what are the Russians going to do about this?
Because, well, the Americans won this time, right?
The president had to flee.
I don't think he's won.
I mean, look, you have a bunch of different groups, roaming gangs of people, you know, dressed up in medieval armor carrying clubs.
I mean, that doesn't look like a very stable coalition to me.
I give it maybe 10 more minutes until they start clubbing each other.
So we'll see how that turns out.
And of course, secondly, there's the Crimea.
There is Eastern Ukraine.
So what's going to happen with those people?
They're not going to go along with this.
And that's the very dangerous part of all this, because Putin apparently called Yanukovych and advised him to step down, which he did.
Well, he didn't officially, but he flew the coop.
So, I mean, it looks to me like Putin does not want a confrontation over this.
And the stakes for Putin are really high, because if he loses, quote unquote, Ukraine, there are much more nationalistic people in Russia waiting to take the reins from him.
And if you think Putin is an autocrat, you haven't seen his right-wing opponents.
So if the West is saying now that Russia is fascist and authoritarian and a danger, wait until Putin loses Ukraine and then perhaps even lose his office.
Then we'll see what happens.
Who was it who coined the phrase about the Americans play checkers while the Russians are playing chess and all of that back in the Cold War?
I saw, I believe they introduced him as the editor of foreign affairs on Jon Stewart.
And he was basically giggling and saying, you know, yeah, we're we got Putin nice and distracted with the Olympics and we're running off with Ukraine and all this.
And he was saying it in such a way that, I mean, if I was on the Russians team, my assessment would be, like you said, give them 10 minutes.
These guys are all going to defeat each other and we're going to win in the long term anyway.
So they don't really need to react because, after all, it is their backyard, not ours.
And we pulled off, the U.S. pulled off a coup d'etat in 2004.
And what good did it do us?
That lasted all of 10 minutes itself, right?
Well, I would remind people that Yanukovych won the last election and he didn't steal it.
He won fair and square.
And I would also remind people of something they probably don't know, and that is that Russian is the first language of the overwhelming majority of people in Ukraine, including in Western Ukraine.
So and if you look at their websites, most of them are Russian language.
Second comes English.
Third is Ukrainian language.
So, I mean, culture trumps everything.
That's true.
My wife is from there and the way they think of it, and this is really kind of a sad and unfortunate legacy of Soviet communism, that Ukrainian, the Ukrainian language was pretty much banished to the countryside and everybody else just adopted Russian in order to get along in the communist system.
And it is really pervasive.
So it really is only the bumpkins now, basically, is the way they consider it, that still speak Ukrainian.
Right.
At least, you know, regularly.
Right.
So, I mean, what's the meaning of that?
Well, you know, the meaning of it is that Russia will win in the long run.
And so but in the short run, we have the prospect of a civil war in Ukraine.
And if the West tries to impose its government on the East, then you're going to see actual fighting.
And then what will Putin do?
Will he call in the troops?
Well, certainly, you know, the neocons hope he will.
But I think that what you'll see, I mean, look, there's one solution to this, and that is a plebiscite.
Let the people of Eastern Ukraine vote.
Do you want to go with Russia?
Do you want to go with the West?
But of course, they'll never allow that.
So well, the problem here, as is often the case is democracy itself, where a 51 percent majority gets to decide for the screaming 49 who can't stand it.
And in this case, you know, when it comes to big decisions like leaning this far east or west, they're not willing to just wait for the next election and see if they can turn things around.
They go right out there and, you know, riot and try to put a stop to it.
So it seems like the solution is secession.
But again, who's willing to which side in power or which group in power on either side, east or west, would be willing to give up the other half of the country if they think they can control it, too?
You know, well, I think that what you're going to see is what happened in Georgia with Ossetia and Abkhazia.
They had a plebiscite.
They voted to go with Russia.
The Georgians under Saakashvili said no way.
And there was a war which Georgia lost.
So, I mean, I think you're going to see a repeat of that.
And it's interesting that Obama, when he was running for president, when this occurred in Georgia, you know, competed with Hillary as to who could be the most anti-Russian.
So I think you're going to see an extenuation of that worldview when that happens in Ukraine.
Well, and he's been pretty soft, actually, on including Ukraine into NATO up until now, but it sure seems like that's what he's pushing for.
Well, I think that...
Or else, what does America care whether Ukraine's in the EU?
It's all about us, and that means NATO, right?
Right.
And, I mean, you have to look at the money, okay?
Ukraine is bankrupt, so it's in danger of default, which means western banks that loaned it all this, you know, all this money is, you know, are in danger.
And if Ukraine defaults, it could set up, you know, a kind of a, you know, dominoes falling, because these banks are inherently unstable anyway, and especially now.
So that is the main concern, I think, of the EU.
And that's why they were stepping, kind of, you know, gently.
And, you know, Newland didn't like that.
You know, she was, you know, saying F-E-U because she thought that they were being too timid.
But, of course, if the country collapses, then no one's going to get repaid, and all those European banks which had lent to Ukraine are, you know, going to lose billions of dollars, which is not going to be good for them.
So the Americans are in more of a hurry than the European Union to put the American people on the hook for Ukraine's debt to the EU.
Is that basically it?
Well, yeah.
I mean, that's part of it.
You know, money is always a consideration when you're talking about the American ruling elite, and also its European counterpart.
But I would bet that the American banks have less of a stake in Ukraine than the Europeans do.
But when the IMF bailout comes, that's just another term for the American taxpayer, or inflation sufferer.
Right.
I mean, since we are the major contributors to that particular scheme.
Right.
All right.
Well, I'm sorry we've got to leave it there, but thanks very much for your time, Justin.
Good to talk to you again.
Thank you.
All right, everybody.
That's Justin Raimondo.
He's editorial director of antiwar.com.
That's antiwar.com slash Justin.
And he's got this piece, Coup in Kiev, and also A World of Trouble, antiwar.com slash Justin.
We'll be right back after this.
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