Download Episode.

Attorney Leonard Goodman returns to the show to talk about the government’s case against his clients in the Uhuru Movement. These left-wing activists have been tied up in court, fighting ridiculous charges that allege they were working for the Russians when they spoke out against the war in Ukraine shortly after it broke out. The trial wrapped up recently. Goodman updates Scott on the results and the likely next steps in this important legal battle for free speech. 

Discussed on the show:

• Scott’s previous interview with Goodman

Leonard Goodman is a criminal defense lawyer, a columnist and an Adjunct Professor of Law at DePaul. Follow him on Twitter @GoodmanLen

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Roberts and Robers Brokerage Incorporated; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; Libertas Bella; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott.

Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack.

Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjY

Daniel McAdams talks with Scott about some of the unintended—or maybe not so unintended—consequences of America’s support for regime change revolutions all over the world. These include powerful drug cartels, the rise of regimes that are more extreme and violent than the ones they replaced, and immigration crises and terrorism that can come back to directly affect America and its allies. Not only is the current impeachment inquiry into Ukraine a direct result of the Obama administration’s backing of Ukraine’s revolution in 2014, it’s also a domestic example of the very same process our government has tried to encourage in other countries, says McAdams. That is, instead of our CIA funding a cabal to overthrow a foreign country’s democratically elected leaders, today we see them doing it in our own country against President Trump.

Discussed on the show:

• Colour revolution
• Jeans Revolution
• Revealing Ukraine
• “Bolivia interim leader recognises Guaido as legitimate Venezuelan leader as balance shifts” (Telegraph)
• “Hillary Clinton Said Children Of Illegal Immigrants Should Be Sent Back In 2014 CNN Interview” (Newsweek)
• Confessions of an Economic Hit Man
• “Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call” (BBC News)
• “Ukraine whistleblower: Don’t forget the deep state has a dark side” (USA Today)

Daniel McAdams is the executive director of the Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity and the co-host of the Ron Paul Liberty Report. Follow him on Twitter @DanielLMcAdams and read all of his work over at Antiwar.com.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Michael Bell shares the story of his son, who was killed by police in 2004 at age 21. Michael Jr. was coming home after a night out, was accosted by officers for spurious reasons, and was eventually fatally shot after one officer claimed Michael was trying to take his gun from him. Michael Sr. has spent the last 15 years putting together his own investigation into his son’s death, fighting to uncover the truth and to change unjust laws about police misconduct investigations. You can find out more at MichaelBell.info.

Discussed on the show:

• “FORENSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE- Anatomy of a Police Cover-Up (full version)” (YouTube)
• “EXCLUSIVE: Air Force Col. Buys 24 Billboards To Expose Cops Who Executed His Son” (The Free Thought Project)

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.Audio Player

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Ray McGovern explains some of the background to the current Ukraine impeachment inquiry, starting with the fact that Russia is obviously just being used today as a bogeyman and a scapegoat for fears of any potential challenge to absolute American global hegemony. McGovern reminds us that after the Russiagate narrative completely fell flat, the democrats and the mainstream media shifted seamlessly to supposed Ukraine corruption, without ever acknowledging the false narrative they’d been pushing for the previous two years. In both cases it’s clear that a disgruntled cadre of deep state operatives is trying to get back at President Trump, who is both personally rude to them and politically dangerous to their continued grip on power.

Discussed on the show:

• “Ukraine For Dummies” (Consortium News)
• “When Did Ukraine Become a ‘Critical Ally’?” (Patrick J. Buchanan)
• “Opinion | What Putin Has to Say to Americans About Syria” (The New York Times)
• “Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call” (BBC News)

Ray McGovern is the co-creator of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity and the former chief of the CIA’s Soviet analysts division. Read all of his work at his website: raymcgovern.com.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Listen to the audio from Scott’s speech at the Ron Paul Symposium on state propaganda and the 2020 election in Texas last weekend. He talks about how important it is, now more than ever, to present a credible opposition to the neoliberal consensus that dominates both major parties today. He sees the 2020 election as a unique opportunity to show the American people that they have another option, and that the best way to do so is to attack the left from the left and the right from the right, reminding them of the most important issues behind what they should be standing for.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Scott interviews Jacob Hornberger about his bid for the presidential candidacy of the Libertarian Party. Hornberger has all the right libertarian positions: End all the wars, end the drug war, open up a free market in health insurance—and just about anything else you can think of. Scott urges all of his listeners to consider joining the Libertarian Party in their states so that we can revive the spirit of the Ron Paul revolution and take advantage of this unique moment in American electoral politics. You can find out more about Hornberger’s campaign at jacobforliberty.com.

Jacob Hornberger is the founder and president of the Future of Freedom Foundation. He’s written numerous books on freedom, peace, and the JFK assassination. Follow him on Twitter @JacobHornberger.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Danny Sjursen advocates for a reclaiming of Veterans Day and a return to the principles of the holiday originally known as Armistice Day. Armistice Day celebrated the end to one of the bloodiest wars in world history, and Sjursen reminds us how eminently worthy of celebration that occasion is. But the modern Veterans Day is not only meaningless and soulless, he says, it also implies that there will always be veterans to celebrate. This attitude helps enable acceptance of America’s forever wars in the Middle East, and makes it more difficult to spread the antiwar cause he has dedicated himself to.

Discussed on the show:

• “Opinion | ‘Democracy Doesn’t Come in a Box’” (The New York Times)
• “The Armistice We Need: Time for Vets To Reclaim Veterans’ Day” (Antiwar.com Original)
• “11/4/19 Dan McKnight on the Fight to Bring Our Troops Home” (The Libertarian Institute)

Danny Sjursen is a retired U.S. army major and former history instructor at West Point. He writes regularly for TomDispatch.com and he’s the author of “Ghost Riders of Baghdad: Soldiers, Civilians, and the Myth of the Surge.” Follow him on Twitter @SkepticalVet.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin:

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Scott interviews Ron Enzweiler about President Trump trying to keep troops in Syria in order to seize their oil fields for American use. Enzweiler says that apart from this being illegal under international law, Syria’s oil fields amount to about 0.2% of the global supply, and the cost of keeping U.S. troops and infrastructure there is orders of magnitude greater than the potential revenues. Enzweiler says Trump’s statements are really about promoting Israel’s interests—since a military presence in Syria is seen as a defense for Israel against Iran—and in so doing, win the political support of American evangelicals.

Discussed on the show:

• “Absurdity of the Neocons’ Syrian Oil Narrative” (Antiwar.com)
• “When Will We Learn?” (Antiwar.com)
• “11/1/19 Sheldon Richman on the True History of Israel” (The Libertarian Institute)

Ronald Enzweiler is an air force veteran and worked for USAID in Iraq for seven years. He is the author of When Will We Ever Learn. You can follow his writing at Antiwar.com.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Android | RSS

—–

Following is a computer-generated transcript of the episode.

Foer, Pacifica Radio november 10th 2019 I’m Scott Horton. This is anti war radio. All right, you guys, this is anti war radio. I’m your host. Scott work on the editorial director of anti war dot com and the author of Fool’s Errand, Timed and the War in Afghanistan. You find my full interview archive or the 5000 interviews now going back to 2003 at scott wharton dot org’s Aren’t you guys Introducing Ron Ends Wyler?

[expand title=”Read More”]He has lately been writing for anti war dot com. He is an Air Force veteran and worked for US aid in Iraq and Afghanistan for seven years, and he’s written a book called When Will We Ever Learn About Us? Foer? Impulse. You know what? That’s Ah, the title of the article that Harry Browne wrote on September 11th 2001. Welcome to show, Ron. How are you doing? A great Scott. Thank you for inviting me to come on your show. And, um, you know, give you some feedback on what I know about some of these things we’re talking about. Yeah, well, so this article’s really important here at antiwar dot com. Absurdity of the neo cons, Syrian oil narrative. And when you say that, you really mean it and you break this down by the numbers here. So give us a little bit of that thumbnail sketch you start off talking about, for example, how much oil the Saudis pump and the Iranians pump and how the Syrian oil supplies compared to that so clueless in here, please. Okay, Well, uh, several other steam people have written about the fact that the or Lindh Syria is really just a tiny amount of world supply and really insignificant relative of the cost that we’re gonna incur Trying to keep 500 soldiers and armored vehicles at these particular oil fields in the southern part of the northeast quadrant of Syria that is Gore’s or that oil field is the major oilfield in Syria. But overall, Scott, that all of their oil reserves in Syria amount 2.2% of the world’s oil supply is that mentioned our article. We fought a lot of wars and spent a lot of money in the Middle East for the last 40 years or so, trying to keep the oil flowing, but that had nothing to do with Syria because it’s just always been a drop in the bucket. And what is particularly almost ridiculous about what we hear it out of the White House these days. This idea that even if you could legally acquire that oil and several esteemed people like Daniel Harrison and others have published how the illegality of that just makes that even almost infeasible from the get go. But suppose you could get in there and get what now amounts to about 24,000 barrels a day of production of the Dahr is their fields. That oil, even by the Russians account, is only worth about $30 million a month. $30 million a month is all that oil is worth, and it’s actually contractually Sinai into the Russians anyhow. So you’d be not just stealing oil from the Syrian government. Be Jos to be sterile it from the Russians, which would have its own problems but be on TV last night and caught criminal. Douglas MacGregor People who follow your show Scott in antiwar dot com know that name because he’s the retired colonel that Daniel Macao Adams and Ron Paul said should have been the replacement National security advisor When John Bolton, gut cashier in a couple of about a Munther Citgo whenever that was so gentle. I really take anything that Colonel McGregor says, I think he’s got the right Foer accent. Ah, perspective. And he was on last night’s and that I finally got this number, Scott, that the cost for the US to keep a military presence in Superior and 2018 was get this $16.2 billion. 16 point. And that was when we had about 2000 troops in the country. And that’s just the deal, Idi. That’s not the CIA’s cost for paying the terrorists on the other side. Go ahead, sir. Oh, clearly, clearly. Well, there was a $1,000,000,000 of foreign aid in that number, which is hard. Maybe that’s just the money we pay. This occurred right now that you know the Syrian Democratic forces under General ah, general body, you know, to basically, you know, keep them running is a is a Basically a mercenary army is you know, that’s really all there are for the U. S. In that part of Syria. Medea That’s 16.2 bit quits. Scotto $1.4 billion a month. So we are deploying troops into Syria at a cost to US taxpayers of $1.4 billion a month to protect $30 million a month of oil revenues. Yes. What’s Oprah explain to me? We’re talking about government work here. That makes perfect sense. I know. Well, how s O? Anybody goes on TV like Lindsey Graham or President Kampeas other people and say we’re gonna kept these oil fields to repay the cost of keeping US troops And in Syria, I mean, that’s absurd. I mean, just in the numbers orders of magnitude, out of line, you know, right away. That’s just a bogus argument and statement. They should have brought Paul Wolfowitz out to sell it. Yeah, that would have been about the same amount of credibility and course it just I mean, so that just tells you right from the get go there, that this was never about some sort of economical project to try toe generate revenues to keep U. S forces in Syria. It was not about trying to let the Kurds have a revenue stream to keep their ah counterinsurgency efforts against Isis. Going, I mean, is I think I missed my article. It would have been much cheaper if the U. S d o d just have look, it’s gonna cost us $1.4 billion a month to keep soldiers in their toe. Pretend we’re protecting oil. Won’t just give that money to the Kurds and tell them by your own oil on the open market. Get our troops out of harm’s way and let the let the Syrian government eventually deal with long term disposition the oil in the country. So that’s again just starting from the simple numbers and fax. It never made any sense to say that this anything to do with, you know, keeping getting money to cover the cost. Of course, at that cost of the U. S. Troops and of course, doing that, any out would be pillar during another country’s oil, which would be a war crime in itself. So that’s Yukio just writes. Cross that one off. There’s any legitimate reason why were presumably keeping a military presence in Syria. Yeah, and you know, it does raise questions about force protection, too. I mean, I don’t think that there’s any opposing army anywhere nearby, despite any scaremongering about Iran or Hezbollah. They’re not gonna secon American base there. But Isis fighters might get a suicide bomber in there. Some leftover guys and you have. And we’ve seen this happen before, in Beirut and at Khobar and numerous times during Iraq war to where guys air essentially left wide open at a base and taken out in one big bomb. And so who knows if they even have enough? You know, I actually have a friend of my reddit room who said, What’s all this about? They sent armor to the oil fields. That can’t be right, because when I was in the military, we did the survey planning for that and decided it can’t be done. So that’s not that can’t be right. And I says, Well, here’s read it and weep, man. Here’s all the Bradleys They’re going and called it in a task and purpose. The headline was Operation turned the F around and go back Thio, take over these oil fields and he’s saying, Oh my God, it’s this view, guys, and I don’t know all the military terminology perfectly or whatever he’s saying like Oh, it must be such a small fraction of a division sent there and was such a long tail of a supply line from there to Iraq. And with this is just at from a military, you know, planner, a lieutenant, colonel or or lower kind of point of view. This is just crazy to do. Some politician thought this was smart, but if he was one of those fighters out there, he wouldn’t like it at all. Is what he was saying. Well, it seems, Scott, what happened is you can see how the Pentagon now is scrambling around trying to make this operational plan work. Yugo Wone that trumpet Lynndie Graeme announced almost off the cuff, Remember a week or so ago and you’re dead, right? That there’s operationally having been in Iraq and haven’t been in Anbar and Bin Diyala side, the big base that they’re using the support. The Dahr reserve fields were out 200 kilometers, maybe two and 50 kilometers across the border into Syria. And that’s the base, by the way, that’s the base. We also launched the Chinooks from to do the Bin Ghandi raid a pinto up in the province, you know, a couple weeks ago. So that’s that’s the big operational footprint that the U. S still hasn’t Iraqis. Only big bass we still have. When I was there in 070 wait, we had five or six big air bases Bin. Now we’re down to just this one. They’re a little bit outside of the west of Baghdad and Anbar Province, and that’s kind of why your friend is exactly right. The other than to give you some other numbers is that it’s not the cost of the soldiers that is running that number up to 16 day. And it’s the fact that soldiers cost. This is the number I know from Afghanistan. Cost about a $1,000,000 per year per soldier to put one in the field in a war zone, so that’s only $500 million a year. The rest of that money, Scott, is what your friend said. It’s the air support from the air base is over, and the person golf is the quick response teams, in this case, probably from al Assad, is the net evac The metal back is really the key issue here because the D. O. D. Has a rule that familiar with from both Iraq and Afghanistan, they will not put a U. S. Combat soldier in a situation where they can not get a medevac helicopter to him. Get him out, I say him or her. But most of these operational people don’t love over man. At that point, get them back out to a what they call a Rove Nature Roll three medical facility, which is basically a trauma center with Western quality doctors. And I can tell you the only place in that part of the world that there’s a roll three NATO medical center is al Assad. So they’re really counting on keeping Al Assad is a U. S. Footprint in that part of the world the Middle East area between Syria, Jordan and Iraq. Can you keep these troops deployed there at Dahr Sauron? And that’s why the rial viability of that presence in mission depends on the Iraqi government. Continue to let the U. S military retained Al Assad is an operational base in that area and run. There’s not gonna be real happy about the let the U. S. Run anti isis missions like the one to get Baghdad e, but you that government, as you know, has got its problems right now and they’re gonna really let the U. S. Military run war profiteering missions into Syria to steal the Syrians oil out of Al Assad. So if the government doesn’t fall, which could happen, as you know, is likely that with the pressure from Iran, his influence, the fact that the Grand Ayatollah Soltan, who is the support of the most authoritative voice in the country, has already said he wants foreign influence in her in Afghan and Iraq toe no cease to get it out, which includes the U. S. Probably to some extent, Iran. And of course, he’s upset that Israel is running missions into their based on U. S. Intelligence that they probably get from the U. S. Footprint in Iraq. So that’s gonna that’s gonna really dictate. So, you know, no matter what Washington says and what the Congress says, once they get to the point where we lose al Assad is a footprint, I can almost tell your listeners that we’re going to be out of Syria. Could it’s just not feasible toe. Maintain those people there in that dangerous situation. You can fly F sixteen’s overhead, all that sort of stuff. But when a soldier gets wounded her seriously, they’ve got to get a medevac in there to get him out. And those those missions, they’re not going to run from Jordan Mencken. It’s what it’s actually too far away. They can probably run tow outs in F. That’s that’s probably legitimate, President. It’s there because they’re relatively close of this space in eastern Syria called H four, which is a sort of a drone base there that they could probably at least get helicopters for those guys and they begin it back. Come on or something for the proper medical care. But that’s gonna be that’s gonna be Lt Dov May turned out to be sustainable to some extent, the night duty. Even people like Scott Ritter knows a lot more about this, and I to even doubts that’s even possible and certainly sees the Dahr Ansar presence is something that’s just not gonna be operationally feasible. Once they really analyze this thing further, hang on just one second. Hey, guys, ever tell you about liberty stickers dot com? It’s just nothing but anti government propaganda for the back of your truck. I invented most of them the good ones, anyway, Anti war stuff. Anti cops making fun of all the candidates in the upcoming election. Liberty stickers dot com Hey, guys, check out the great lineup of podcasts we’ve got going on over at the Libertarian Institute. There’s me foreign policy and focused with Call Anzalone Freeman Beyond the Wall with Peak, Winona’s a k A Man’s Raider, The Liberty Weekly podcast with Patrick Macfarlane and Keith Night, and our newest addition, Jen Libertarian with Jen Monroe. Check them all out at Libertarian Institute Dot or GE. Hey, guys, don’t think it be cool if you could go to college, but Tom Woods was the dean of the thing. Yeah, well, something like that. Check out liberty classroom dot com, where Tom Woods went, had his pick of all the best professors to teach their courses in, uh, the real history and economics that you didn’t learn when you went to college the first time around, or maybe didn’t learn because you skipped your higher education altogether. But, ah, here’s some riel American history and some real economics, the kind of stuff that you’ve been missing. It’s all liberty classroom dot com and make sure to click through the link in the right hand margin of my website. Scott horton dot ord. All right, I’m talking with Ron Ends Wyler writing for anti war dot com, former Air Force and U. S aid and we’re talking about Trump pulled the troops out of northeastern Syria, where they were standing between the Kurds and the Turks, and that situation is more or less resolving itself. You can comment on that a little bit if you like, but just setting up here that Trump started to pull those troops out into Iraq. And then, as you say in your article here, Jack Keane, the author of the Iraq and Afghan Surges Sorry the failed Iraq and Afghan surges went on TV and said, Hey, Trump, you gotta steal that oil or else someone else is going to get it or something like that. And it was that easy to get Trump to turn right around and order this toe happen. And so this is where we get back to what you mentioned, that this is absolutely illegal. In fact, the war in Syria the D. O. D. Presents itself is completely illegal. The O. M. F doesn’t count against Isis and the government under Obama when they launched Iraq War three at which includes eastern Syria, didn’t argue that it did, really. They just went ahead anyway. And the sovereign government of Syria has said We’re not welcome this old time, so we’re not allowed there at all, and then much less to come in and outright steal. The resource is which is against the international law that the United States of America wrote for the rest of the world. And what’s even more ridiculous, Scott, Because that, of course, is right on this idea that an American oil company and of course, Trump’s Pacifica mentioned Exxon Mobil. Someone other in the middle of this war zone would go in there and effect with the U. S. Force protection as minimal as it is and basically invest what probably needs to be a couple $1,000,000,000 to bring that oil field Dahr solar field back up to its pre war production. Probably that particular field might be in the 300,000 barrels per day range Total serial range before the war is about 4000. But I mean that you just mentioned that no U. S oil company is going to be involved in pillaging another country’s oil. They’re not gonna make a capital investment in a country that’s in a war zone. I think I think of my article. I mentioned Yalom. McGurk was the terrorist advisor there for the government actually ran this idea past Rex Tillerson when he was secretary of state. And obviously, if anybody knows how Exxon Mobil operates and makes decisions just Rex Dulles and their ex CEO and even said, this is completely illegal as we got the Syrian government in the Russians who have the contractual rights involved in the whole project and neither one had ideas. So plus, you look at it that potentially with restored fields that could be a $5 billion a year revenue, remember revenue or is not profit. Someone has to invest money. Someone has to operate the field. Someone has to transport the oil, so you might need a couple $1,000,000,000 out of that. You normally would pay the host country royalty so that that would be required under a foreign direct investment situation. So there’s a couple $1,000,000,000 there that could net back to whatever government to the Syrian government, for example, which is mixing feasibility. But the conditions right now don’t even make that remotely possible so that you have to have the peace going. And that’s what makes it really meant. Have we all know that the only law for Exxon is money, not do anything that they want or Cannes up to the limit of what doesn’t make business sense? Then all of a sudden the law kicks in and, yeah, you know we can’t do it. And it’s obvious why it appeals to Trump. That’s what he always complained about. Iraq War two was the relative cost, he said. We didn’t even take the oil, which like what we’re gonna do, scoop it up with one big spoon and bring it home with us to pump later. But yeah, that that, of course, was completely I mean, getting. He’s just fueling up anti. This imperialism and pillar. Jane is just making us image in that part of the world. You know, all the more negative and society more terrorism because everyone thinks now it’s true. I remember not too long ago Assad himself when on TV and said, At least Trump is I liked Leupp being honest about what the U. S is doing is the most transparent president. Every cent question. Yeah, yeah, that at least he’s being honest about it. You know, he’s admitting what the U. S has always done. So I know. Tell you what. You know. If Trump is really a peacenik and was just trolling and trying to make everyone react against him in this way, it would be perfect. Unfortunately, no, he’s really that horrible, but it would be perfect. Trolling Efraim Joscelyn Wasat. It’s not even nail that it’s all the lobby’s that were that control Washington You know, the oil lobby, the he mentioned. The arms industry lobby didn’t exactly mention the Israeli lobby, but that was implied in what he said. So, yeah, I mean, the lobby’s air controlling these decisions by the Pentagon and the Congress on howto maintain. This is what you know, Daniel Harrison said, was exactly right. We just made up three or four reasons why we would You need to keep a U. S troop presence in Syria, But it’s all about, you know, stopping the so called Shia Crescent supply line from Iran into Damascus. And yeah, that’s exactly what time it is. All of Altona is all about. That was right on that highway. But the presence there in the not too far away and in Syria is also intended to keep the U. S presence there and hopefully revived the or the war with the Kurds. The Syrian defense forces to try toe this crazy idea, Scott, that we need to guard those fields to keep Isis from coming in and taking the whale when isis has no operational capability. No present is to do that no capital or run that type operation. That’s just another just, you know, made of idea toe try, toe, get the U. S. Public. Someone other support this and all the talking heads on television, of course. Say that Which is, of course I mean the other course. Ridiculous. Wone that mission. My article is the idea of we leave or Ron’s gonna come in there and take the oil when you know 30 million barrels, $30 million a month is a drop in the bucket, even though what they’re now generating, even with the sanctions in terms of or Lindh hydrocarbon Rove profits. So they’re gonna go in there and jeopardize their chance to get back to their 4.5 million barrels a day. You know, 43 or $4 billion a month type of revenues to get uneasily Amman Hadar Oil out of Syria, which would have to fight their allies, Russia and the Assad government even take so that just we went. I mean, the all the absurdities of these bad guys. After that, we’re tryingto protect against her. Just all just straw, man, that got put up to sort of justified the presents to, you know, basically satisfy the And by the way, that article was on anti war dot com today, the one from The Spectator in the UK by John Bradley. He just nails that right to the final fact that this is all about Trumpian to get re elected based on keeping the evangelicals happy and the pro Israel lobby happy and leaving a few troops. They’re saying we’re tryingto protect Israel from the Syrian aggression in that part of the world is fundamentally the rationale Why, where even spending $16 billion of taxpayer money to protect a teeny amount of oil, which is not even Taba Stasi related to the reality of the situation Yep. I’m gonna go back to your point about the bait and switch here where this isn’t about. Oh, we have to protect the Syrian Kurds. That’s Obaid and Switch. And it’s not even a bait and switch. Foer. Well, we really have to stay there to fight Isis, not they’ve been essentially eliminated and obliterated from Eastern serious, not Isis. The real jihadists in Syria, everybody knows, are American turkeys pets up in the Midland Province in the northwest of it. So it’s not that it’s a double extra bait and switch. It’s all about Iran. And what about Iran? As you said, it’s not preventing them from getting the oil and running off with it. It’s about then being able to move things by truck into Syria when they can fly stuff anyway. And when. If there’s a solution to the problem off the jeopardy of the Kurds and the vulnerability of the rest of the Syrians, including the Kurds, to the last remnants of the presence off the Islamic state in eastern Syria, the obvious solution is for the Syrian government, with the help of the Iranian and Hezbollah and Russian friends to reestablish their territorial monopoly with their army in that country to keep the Turks out, to keep Isis down and to try toe, rebuild their country, put it back together again, and then you have this great quote in this piece just kills me where they admit outright that that is really what they’re trying to prevent more than anything. Same reason they built up these jihadist forces in the first place is the same reason they want to keep serial broke. Not because they hate Syria, not cause even they hate Assad. Or they just don’t want to see Syria rebuilt in resentment for them defeating our Al Qaeda friends there in this war. But just so that they remain a financial burden on Iran. And the truth is Scott the only entity that once they separate Kurdistan there in the northeast Syria, which is kind of what, of course, the Syrian Kurds were aiming towards a legend. The U. S. Promised them, which I can assure you they did not. But that is basically Israel would like to see a separate Kurdistan because it lets the only one country around there. There’s a little bit of a good relationship there, and they get along somewhat and, of course, the U S. And just backs that. And but, you know, creating a separate Kurdistan there in eastern Syria would just, you know, that would cause all sorts of Bronx Turki with Iran. You know, they all have Kurdish minorities in their area. And it’s really funny, Scott, because I was in Iraq in 07 or eight. The idea. Irgun Arak up into three separate entities. Kurt, the Iraqi Kurdistan of the North and she and the South and the Sunnis in the West. That was vetoed. Bye Washington Simply because they knew that creating the Illing, Iraqi Kurdistan become autonomous country or even south Kobani region would be completely anathema. Toe Iran, Syria, Well, Iran and Turkey. And of course, at that point, Syria and not really got into a civil war yet, So it should also be against all that. So they backed off that idea, which actually might Hameed Arak a more stable place, long term. But that’s always been not a viable scenario, which is so interesting now that we we flipped out when Wone, 80 saying that we need a separate Kurdistan in that part of the world Theo, hold back Iran from being more powerful in tow. You know, keep Shias you mentioned exactly. Right. Keep keep the Assad government in a weak position of not even overthrown at some point basically, to make that part of the world a safer place for the the Israeli Zionist, you know, which, by the way, your article. Your podcast. Khalis. Oprah Shelton. Rachman was just so informed ship on the whole subject. I really listen to it. Listen to that one. Because I think he nailed it, too. Of course, that’s what this is all about. I mean, you can’t really say that in the US press, but the U. S. Suspected from the UK and John Bradley. Hoboken say that, and he actually did an excellent article, which I encourage everyone to read on anti war dot com because he’s is spot on to what’s really going on here. Yep, all domestic politics. And ah, it’s interesting, innit? Right away. Domestic politics, rules, foreign policy and foreign policy rules, domestic politics. And it’s just stuck like this in the Yeah, there’s no way around it, and it’s just let’s face, it’s got no matter works out of the al Yugo to that just aren’t good options out there. Who’s going to really be a change agent and really get us off this situation that in my book I talk about how it’s just, you know, we’re just going off the cliff here in terms of financial solvency of our country, creating enemies around the world. Everything we do, you know, this that is the answer. It’s it’s the broken dollar that’s gonna finally in this, Uh, yeah, for a politician makes the right goal, that’s for sure. I think I think David Stockman is called that a couple times. And of course he knows what he’s talking about. So I think that’s probably where this and unfortunately, the political process isn’t going to solve. It even matter who you elect initial X. I’m gonna says they’re gonna do all this. The Washington establishment just mowed them under, you know, just, you know, I appreciate soc Gabb, but she’s got the right message. And by the way, she did file legislation trying to deal with the legality of what we’re doing in Syria. But you think there’s any chance nasty places don’t bring that up for a vote of course not. You will never see. Our democracy does not work when it comes to challenging the status quo in Washington. Yeah, as Tom Woods law. No matter who you vote for, you always get John McCain. Ah, that’s a good Harlingen. So that maybe rest in peace kiss. You know, he’s the big he and Lynndie Graeme and jacking that you mentioned the big liars about Obama pulled the troops out of Iraq and that he created Isis. When the truth is the Grand Ayatollah Yasar Taayie had already said Get these troops out of here. And that’s what caused, you know, the status of forces agreement not to be extended. And that’s why we got kicked out of nothing. Do with Obama in the No, no, thank you. I would have never come back if it hadn’t have been for Obamas support for their efforts in Syria next door. I mean, you know, in real time, Patrick Coburn warned on this show G. I just got back from Baghdad and all the Shia leaders there are saying American support for the Sunni insurgency in Syria is re energizing the Sunni insurgency hair and that is this really what we’re doing. How changing sides as long as you’re on that side of the line. We all saw it coming for years before they took Mosul on created the caliphate. So and I think the bottle on your Scott is that foreign intervention has unintended consequences, and we’re never gonna be able to make these things work. When there’s so many interrelated parts and variables, once you intervene, take out a government of regime change. Start bombing people. You create enemies. The facts on the ground change, you get stuck in a quagmire. I mean, thank goodness there’s a few people in Washington like I mentioned Colonel McGregor in Colonel Workers and, by the way, was Kolache piles chief of staff. Although they don’t have the same has good ideas to on this. And you kind of wish these other talking to his generals, you know, guys like Petraeus and the Crystal and Jack Keane and the Crave Inn. John Allen. These are all guys that were in Iraq when I was in Afghanistan. I was over there. These guys are just, you know, they’re just propaganda pieces for the War state and what actually what? Pepe Cannes and calls the warfare state. So you really, really got You know, it’s amazing how these guys get so much publicity and there’s time when they’re just proven losers in terms of the strategy and the execution of war plans that we’ve been through for the last 15 18 years. And you know what? You could be 10 years old and never heard these arguments at all. And all you have to know is that this war started back in 2000 and one, and we’re having this conversation now, eight years later, we’ve been trying really hard to kill the 400 guys who, you know, were in the group that attacked us back then and somehow we just created 40,000 of them. I just don’t know if you have to know anything about it, but that to know that something’s not right here. And, you know, we’ve spent an additional 7.5 being in military spending over that period. And even the people in charge now admit that you make sure you’re safe today than they were. I’m sorry, Trey. And yet you’re right. I’m sorry. Yeah, it’s our guys. These numbers, right? With what are you talking about June 2003 course. That’s 1/3 of our current debt right now. $23 billion. $22 billion. So that’s 1/3 of that debt is simply this war on terror that we started in 2000 and one and two and then continue today and buy any Wonsan mission. Since we kill Baghdadi, they’d come back. And Orwell, it’s not over. They’re going to new leader. We’ve got to keep going to keep spending more money. We can’t bring anybody home. So I mean, this is endless. The famous endless war Is that your self perpetuating? Because it were fueling the terrorism that we’re presuming out there trying to defeat and, you know, having lived there and work there long as I did, I could see that in none of these, there’s no viable strategy other than get out of there That’s ever going to make Americans safer. And that’s you know, unfortunately, that’s not the political dynamic that’s in Washington right now. That’s anyway, anywhere close to being effectuated Aviv. No matter how our politics go. Yeah, All right. Well, thank you very much. Everybody, that is Ronald Ends Wyler. He used to be Ah, in the U. S. Air Force and also worked for US aid in Iraq and Afghanistan. And he’s the author of the book When will We Ever Learn? And you can find what he’s been writing lately at antiwar dot com. Thanks very much. You’re welcome. All right, Sean, that is anti war radio for this morning. Thanks very much for listening. I’m Scott Horton, editorial director of antiwar dot com and author of Fool’s Errand. Timed and the War in Afghanistan by my full interview archive. More than 5000 of them now going back to 2003 at scott horton dot org’s and I’m Here Every Sunday morning from 8 39 on KPFK 90.7 f m Cnet.[/expand]

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Scott interviews Francis Boyle about his attempts to help Liz McAlister and the Kings Bay Plowshares 7 in their legal battle for what he views as justified civil resistance. McAlister helped break into the Kings Bay nuclear base in order to peacefully and symbolically protest America’s illegal possession of warheads that could end all life on the planet. Boyle was part of a team of advisers and expert witnesses with experience getting acquittals in previous cases like this, but the night before the trial they were blocked from testifying, essentially guaranteeing McAlister and the other defendants a conviction. They are awaiting sentencing on numerous charges.

Discussed on the show:

• “Francis A. Boyle in Defense of Kings Bay Plowshare 7 Activists” (Accuracy.Org)
• Draft Declaration of Francis A. Boyle
• “10/18/19 Elizabeth McAlister on Nuclear Winter and the Kings Bay Plowshares 7 | The Libertarian Institute” (Libertarian Institute)
• The Doomsday Machine: Confessions of a Nuclear War Planner
• Religious Freedom Restoration Act

Francis Boyle is a human rights lawyer and a professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law. He is the author of Defending Civil Resistance Under International Law and Protesting Power: War, Resistance, And Law.

This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: NoDev NoOps NoIT, by Hussein Badakhchani; The War State, by Mike Swanson; WallStreetWindow.com; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; Washinton Babylon; Liberty Under Attack Publications; Listen and Think Audio; TheBumperSticker.com; and LibertyStickers.com.

Donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal, or Bitcoin: 1KGye7S3pk7XXJT6TzrbFephGDbdhYznTa.

—–

Following is a computer-generated transcript of the episode.

All right shall welcome with Scott Horton Show. I am the director of the Libertarian Institute editorial director off anti war dot Com author of the book Fool’s Errand. Time to End the War in Afghanistan and I recorded more than 5000 interviews going back to 2003 all of which are available at Scott horton dot or you can also sign up for the podcast feed. Full archive is also available at youtube dot com slash scott Horton Shoah. All right, you guys. Time to welcome Francis Boyle back to the show been a little while international law expert and would be expert witness for the Kings Bay Plowshares seven who were convicted at the end of October.

[expand title=”Read More” class=”ex-expand-transcript”] Ah, for their protest at the Kings Bay Trident submarine nuclear facility There. Uh, Yul might remember we had Elizabeth McCallister on this show just a couple of weeks ago What, three days before the trial started, I guess, um, a few weeks ago Ah, well, they were convicted. And so Francis Boyle is here to talk about the trial and what comes next and all the rest of those things. So welcome back to the show, sir. How are you? Well, thank you very much for having me on my best. Your listening audience. Well, great. I’m very happy to have you here, sir. So please remind us about the the Kings Bay Plowshares seven who they are and exactly what happened here. That’s at issue. Well, these are, ah, religious people affiliated with the Catholic Workers and also the Ploughshares movement that was founded around 19 eggy by Phil Berrigan, Dan Berrigan and Phil’s wife, Lizza Macao Alistair, whom you’ve already talked to. And they went on the King’s Bay trying to, uh, nuclear weapons site that has the trying to nuclear subs there on the east Coast. They got in there. They did what? You know, they call to be ah, symbolic disarmament. Ah, they prayed and things of that nature. They were arrested voluntarily. They were peaceful, nonviolent. They did not resist arrest. Andrei Eeyore, United States government indicted them Foer Deputation of government property 10 years Ah, Destruction of naval property five years Destruction of US government property. Five years. Yeah, naval property conspiracy Five years and trust past six months. So, um, we I work Foer Lizza Macao Alistair She was represented by my friend Bill, quickly. Listen, I have been friends for many years as well. Ansar, Uh, her late husband, Phil, and I’ve represented them in other contexts. The other kings make plowshares, uh, decided to represent themselves. And there were basically two. Why would say three approaches to defending them? The first was the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Ah, this is the first time ever to best my knowledge that such a defense was made in one of these PowerShares cases. And then the second, uh, Dan Ellsberg of put it in an affidavit on the basis of his book of the Armageddon machine, which I encourage you read, outlining the necessity defense. And then I had a very extensive declaration. I hears about nine pages long you can find on the Internet. It is stupid. Public accuracy are going through a lengthy international law violations criminal law violations. Ah, by trying to and concluding that they really did not have the criminal intent, uh, necessary to constitute these crimes. And in any event, the government had to prove that credible intent beyond a reasonable doubt. And certainly my declaration had created a reasonable doubt, and the charges should be dismissed Now on the Friday evening at 10 p.m. In the dead of night before the trial was open on Monday morning. The U. S. Federal judge, who is a Bush junior appointee, by the way I’ve dealt with them before, issued an order that struck them off A ll defenses They could not make any of these defenses and in addition, muscle that as to their capability to to raise these types of issues in their own ah, testimony and also threaten them and their lawyers with contempt if they did not know and other harsh sanctions if they, uh missile mater or so after reading your right, I did put out a press release their Mr for public accuracy, saying, This is a kangaroo court with rubber stamp on a railroad towards their conviction. And that’s exactly what happened in court. You could read the transcript if you want. At the King’s May Plough share website, they repeatedly cut off, interrupted They they were threatened with contempt, etcetera, etcetera. So not only were they stripped of all their defenses illegally, unconstitutionally, they were muzzled and threatened on the witness stand. So of course they were convicted. Yeah, Well, so And of course, I just assumed that the jury was full of not the peers of the accused but the peers of the accusers, just like always, which is, you know, a big part of it. Meaning government employees from the local area, probably as well. But now, I mean, I don’t know. I guess if you give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe if they got to hear the defense’s side of the story, they would have at least had a chance. Um, it’s correct. But not only that up, there’s a good chance they would have been acquitted. I’ve worked on these up cases before, Uh, on the first anti nuclear protests case I ever did. Foer Kochs Christie was 1982. Uh, the first Paulish Aires case I did was 1985. You could read about this in two books I’ve written of defending Civil Resistance under International Law 1987 which I wrote for lawyers to use in these cases and made later another book protesting power. More resistance in law. Aah! Brahmin littlefield about publishers 2008. And when we’ve been able to get these arguments to the jury. Uh, we have been able, uh, to get outright acquittals or hung Juries, at least. Really? Yes. I didn’t realize that. Well, and I guess so That was gonna be one of my other questions was how often is it that the judges are this total in banning the defense from even being allowed to put on a case in this way? It’s typical in clashes cases. Yes, they don’t really care that no federal judges here, they’re just part of the federal system. And you have to understand that, uh, the ploughshares go directly at the heart of the American Empire against the Pentagon. Indeed, the U. S. Department of Injustice has a special task force to deal with, Ah, plowshares cases to monitor them, to direct the persecutions, I would call it and always to go for the max to go for the maximum charges and the maximum sentences. And that’s been the consistent pattern that I’ve seen since doing these cases in 1985. Foer Foer the postures. Yeah, well, I mean, let’s break this down a little bit when you say go after they’re doing symbolic protests, they’re not truly threatening to disable any nuclear weapons or, you know, they’re not cutting open the fence of the Al Qaeda terrorist Cannes sneak in there not doing anything other than creatively protest ng and committing acts of civil disobedience to bring public attention to the danger of these weapons. So it goes to show just how important nipping even that is nipping that in the bud is to the state that they don’t want it to look like any old nun Cannes protest a nuclear weapons facility and get away with it ever because somebody else might copy her. And that’s a pretty total stand to take against what on the surfaces. Just kind of, you know, left wing direct action protest tactics, which aren’t really dangerous. It’s like they’re breaking windows at Starbucks or something terrible like that, you know? Well, everything you said is correct. Ghandi. I worked on the case of ah, three nuns there in Denver who went out to an I C B M Silas Ayn cut the fence, went in there and great. And the, uh, federal government. It was again Cannes total Kadima Yul court proceeding before a Bush junior judge, and they were found guilty of depredation and sabotage. And then the United States government demanded 30 years, 30 years, the maximum for both of them. And they were elderly. They were between 66 67 years old. This would have been wife in prison, Minh. Um, and, you know, at the end of the day, they got short of three. So this is typical because the United States government understands this goes right up against the heart of what the Pentagon is all about. Yeah. Yugo into these trials, ex cases which I have you known, you’re up against the Pentagon. That’s is really behind the Department of Injustice. So persecuting these people now, I would only make one correction there. Scotsman Weicker, This is not a case in civil disobedience. Go that, you know, going back to Dr King and the American civil rights movement, the courageous African Americans and others who supported them. Um, this is a case of civil resistance, Uh, in that the crimes here are being committed by the United States. Gotcha. In violation of international criminal law and, ah, us domestic criminal Waal, including, but not limited to the Nuremberg Charter judgment and principles. I outlined these briefly in my nine page ah declaration which you are free to re also U s Army field manual 27 10 um, the Geneva Conventions and other basic sources of ah international criminal law. So and that gets incorporated into United States domestic wall, the U. S. A. War crimes act, for example. So these people aren’t disobeying anything. They are obeying the rules of international law which are part of the United States. Moammar and also us crippled walk in trying to prevent the ongoing commission off crimes. Um and so they are the sheriffs and the people running the trying to system there. The outlaws, I think I just figured out why the judge won’t let you testify. Well, it’s exactly right. And that was all set forth in my declaration if if you read it. But when we get these arguments to the jury’s oh, and I have enough time to present these arguments and we can bring in an expert witness on US nuclear weapons systems like paying Ellsberg that we wanted to do here, we could usually turn around a jury and getting acquittal, if not, you know, Hung jury. Sure. Yeah, I’ve done it myself. uh, by myself. Sure, it’s interesting it on. I’m so interested in the topic of nuclear weapons and and all the politics surrounding them and everything. And I’m just ceaselessly fascinated by how little anyone cares about this, that set when it’s a new story like this. But for the most part, these things they’re just out of sight, out of mind, even though everyone knows enough about them to know that one good Wone Cannes kill a whole city and that that’s bad and that, at best, we’ve got a bunch of lawyers in charge of deciding when they should be used. The same kinds of soulless monsters that would put old lady in prison for life for praying at a facility are the same kinds of people who decide whether to use these or not. And so far we’ve been lucky. But it just sort of goes without saying in our society, and I guess around the world that yeah, well, we’re just gonna all have Or not all but many nations are going to have aged bombs pointed at each other from now on, the Nonproliferation Treaty and the rest of these things you cite notwithstanding and anyway, what’s for lunch and that nobody cares, really. They care more about TV shows and they care about h bombs. And ah, I’m not sure why. I guess Well, we all know we’re powerless to doing there. We feel powerless to do anything about it. That’s a big part of it. But, boy, what an emergency. You know, to think that these guys air holding on toe bombs that are measured in the mega tons when they detonate, right. And in the case of the trident to its use, uh, would probably destroy all humanity. These are, you know, 150 kill Aton bombs, maybe 10 size 10 times the size of Parachini, my Nagasaki and many warheads. And it would definitely set off a, uh, you know, a major nuclear war between the United States and Russia. Indochina and I don’t think anyone would survive human life would be, uh, extinguished. And according to ah, scientific study, Ah ah, the on Lee ah form of life that would survive of the cockroaches because their shells would would resist the radiation. So that’s what we’re dealing with as Foer list Macao. Alistair, hold that thought for just one second because I should mention that, you know, there are are less, um, drastic scenarios for that that still include the deaths of billions of people and widespread famine and essentially, the cancellation of human civilization back to bronze age levels and absolute catastrophe beyond anyone’s imagination. But that, you know, and the Southern Hemisphere, some humans air would be able to pull through, you know, eventually this kind of thing. So maybe it wouldn’t be down to the cockroaches, but it would certainly be. I mean, without question, right? A war between America and Russia would mean absolutely. That question would mean the end of all northern civilization on the planet and and certainly the destruction of billions and billions and billions of whoever’s left after that. So anyway, I just Sometimes people hear, hear things stated so totally and maybe dismiss it that, like, I don’t know, you could have a war where hundreds of millions or billions die, but maybe not all eight billion of us. You know, we would have brought on Dan Ellsberg in with his new book that I would encouraged you read. Oh, I have. And I’ve talked with him about it. Brahmins times. Yeah, I I think dance opinion would have been, uh, using the trying to nuclear weapons system would have extinguished basically all forms of life on the planet Earth and turned it into, ah, radioactive wasteland for cockroaches. That that, you know, we could have had Dan address that precise issue. That’s what we recorded. And, hey, I’m with you. Everybody needs to read the doomsday machine. I mean, that thing will absolutely blow your mind. The indigenous listen, firstly, involved in drawing US nuclear war plans. So he Neo has enormous credibility here. The reason I even bothered to dispute is actually have another friend. Um, you might remember Gordon pray there from the George W. Bush years, right? So much great stuff for anti war dot com to bunking all the lies about Iran’s supposed nuclear weapons program and that kind of thing. And he used to make a TSH bombs for Uncle Sam during the Cold War and knows a hell of a lot about it and says like a you know, if you survive the initial dose of radiation, you’re far enough away from the actual explosions. Um, you know, you’re not gonna The radiation eventually dissipates from that. So you survive that. And then obviously, weather patterns changing and crop failures and all those things, you know? No, I don’t think he discounts nuclear winter altogether, but I think he he also said that Yeah, some of those things might be absolute worst case scenarios to. So then again, I mean, I think at the if this is the low end of the sliding scale that we’re still talking about, billions of deaths were still talking about catastrophe beyond anyone’s imagination. That’s hardly an argument for going ahead and hang on to these things, you know? Well, Dr Helen hold account has written books on the dangers of radiation, and I think she would respectfully disagree with this. Ah, person. Also, Dr Struggle, as is written the book on the radiation. So I don’t think we would have had much difficulty if we had a chance. Uh, establishing in court that certainly the Yusra trying to nuclear weapons systems, uh, would have extinguished life on the planet Earth as we know it, but that, you know, you’re welcome, Uri. Doctor. Cold, hot and stirring glass. Yeah. You know, maybe I should get ah, her and or Dan back on the show to talk about that. And exactly, I mean, the tried and we’re talking about one missile with multiple warheads launched from Wone submarine. And that alone could extinguish all life in France or something. But if you’re saying that, that was if the use of one of those would mean unstoppable chain of events that would lead to full scale nuclear exchange between American Russia, America and China, then that’s a different question, right? Sure. Yeah. Anyway, I’m sorry. I don’t mean to bicker with you here. I’m absolutely on your side. And the idea that you would ever that that any that humanity can even entertain the possibility that we would hold on to weapons that even the use of one of which would kill an entire city worth of human beings is just absolutely, unforgivably mad. So not to coin a phrase, but anyway, right, well, a zay said the The systems on both sides the United States and Russia are on a hair trigger alert that could go off at any time and even in the event of a computer malfunction or a flight of geese or band satellite images or things of that know the cases I’ve worked on. We have introduced evidence of repeated malfunctions on warning systems, so it’s far more dangerous. I think, that most people realize, right, Yeah, there have been at least 20 extremely close calls tow absolute brink of war, which I don’t I’m not really good with Maven’s Statistics and stuff, But that sounds, you know, a cat only has nine lives. We got away with 20 almost h bomb wars over Ms takes right over a bomb that accidentally fell out of a plane or misunderstanding between the Americans and the Soviets over their intentions at different times. And these kinds of things that’s cutting it way, way, way too close. Effect. No, my dad was at U. C. L. A. In 1963 and his professor disappeared for two weeks and came back and said, Yeah, I was there advising the ex Com. And I’m here to tell you kids that this Cuban missile crisis is this close to nuclear war, as we could possibly get without having Wone that is the absolute brink of the crisis. The fact that we survived it is a miracle. Well, and as a matter of fact, if you study all the letter drawn the Cuban missile crisis that that’s exactly correct. We came, uh, with a hair breath away off nuclear war with the Soviet Union that that’s cracked. Indeed. I, uh, Artie to that effect in Scotland in a court in a chronic Scotland, uh, where three women went out and damaged a tender for the UK Tried in twos that we gave them. Um and, uh, at that I argued that exact point. If you’re interested, you could see that my argument testimony Website Foer Trident Ploughshares Talal the British Way p l o u g h S h A R E s 2000 Oh, and at the end of the day, we got a directed verdict from the judge over acquittal. Oh, on behalf of all three of them, Foer Foer chart four different charges each on various different counts of destruction of property and even made the British press the next day saying our nuclear deterrent is illegal, which which it is. We have to understand that despite all this nonsense about deterrence, that’s a joke in a frog. All our weapons, our strategic nuclear weapons, are designed Foer offensive First Strike, Strategic nuclear attack on Russia or China are now other targets that we allege have nuclear weapons. And indeed, Maginot Doctor Michaux Kochs wrote a book on this. The physicists you see him on TV called for a strike and eagles through it all there the number of times we threatened or prepared for first strike of nuclear weapons. So these weapons, they’re not there to deter anything. They are there to be used in a first strike. Indeed, in a plowshares case I worked up on Wisconsin Tom and Ron Howard Hastings Ah, they had damaged the e l F towers that communicate. We’re trying to submarines. And they were both facing charges of sabotage. And we brought in a naval Capt. Retired. He used to command submarines, and he says it’s well known that the E L F. Dryden to system ah, will be the bell ringer for the start of an offensive. First strike strategic nuclear war. Well, with his testimony and my testimony and my arguments, we got out right acquittals for both of us. So again, it goes back to the point when Juries actually here. Ah, the destructive I mean, we’re talking about weapons that far exceeds even the wildest fantasies of Hitler and the Nazis. If you study those, these are natural weapons to the umpteenth time. And when Juries get to hear that, and then the that that this is ongoing criminal activity conspiracy, planning, preparation to commit Nuremberg, crimes against humanity, war crimes, crimes against peace and outright genocide typically no quit. And by the way, the United States government knows that the Department of Justice does that, which is why they fight so hard to keep up my testimony out of there. And even my declarations were even putting aside me testifying your court, which I was standing by to fly out there. Even my declarations by two declarations they did not get to see, even though they’re they’re filed with the court. The second declaration. I submit it after the Trump administration pulled out of the I N F tree and I itemized in that second declaration again, which you could find on the King’s Obaid Plowshares website. Now the dangers that are facing us that these high enough weapons now will be deployed by the United States, first against Russia and also against China and reduce warning time. Uh, from the time they’re set off to the time they Landay neither Moscow, St Petersburg or elsewhere two, maybe 3 to 5 minutes. So I had the same will be true with respect to China. So clearly they are there as part of an offense and first strike nuclear weapons system against Russia against China. There’s no question about it if you study the literature, and Dan would agree with me that that was the bidding. You know, if we had abandoned me, it would have been the 12 punch there. Well, it’s always been clear, you know, for the project Offputting the so called defensive missiles in Eastern Europe that that was part of an offensive package, it was just meant to be able to shoot down their retaliatory strike to make it easier to launch a first strike in the first place. In fact, when the Russians are now pointing out that in fact, we are putting ah, Tomahawk cruise missiles in there in those launchers are nuclear capable and that therefore they have an offensive capability and not just are there for defense. And the Russians said, you know, if you do that, we will have to respond in kind. So I forget if it was at a G eight conference or something like that when George W. Bush said that, you know, it was like an aside, I think, some international conference with a bunch of European leaders there and that kind of thing. And he says, Well, you know, this is all just you know, these missiles air going into Poland to protect from Iran and the whole room just busted out laughing already knows Iran doesn’t have any missiles that can hit Poland and doesn’t have any nukes and doesn’t have a beef with Poland of all places. And what he talking about, This is about Rush. In fact, I think Putin was there, too, and they all just kind of had a laugh that Oh, that’s what you’re supposed to say, huh? Even though we all know on the face of it that this is Foer part of our policy of containing Russia in the new Cold War at war. Worse as you’re saying, right, you have to be an idiot to believe something like that and my way. Then you see this subtle judge, the uh, Bushies Junior pointy. She knew full well, Shia goof Orwell that if I was able to present these arguments to the jury and, uh, Zidane Ellsberg was able to send his arguments, the jury, there’s a good chance we have gotten an outright acquittal for all of them. And that would have been a terrible blow against trying to. So, of course, she just not only struck me, she struck dead. Uh, my declarations never got to the jury. I don’t dance. After David didn’t and the Kings Bay plowshares were muscle. You could read the transcript and threatened with the judge. Gotcha. This they began talking about these things, She’d hold them in contempt. Well, now, let me ask you this. What was Can you give us a bit of a summary of the religious freedom argument there? Because that was something that Lizza, Macao Alistair had mentioned that you were more specific. You said they were trying to invoke the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Yeah, there. This was the first time ever the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Ah was adopted by Congress, uh, to make sure that the United States government does not put undue burdens on people Foer, uh, motivated by religious reasons. Uh, and all they wanted to do here was to argue these points, uh, to the jury. That’s what they wanted to argue. And the judge just stripped over that argument to so they were able to get up there and say, Well, I was motivated for religious reasons, but they could not tie into this specific statute that, ah, give special protections. Four people who are motivated by religious reasons. So that was stripped of them with the experts on that they they were going to bring in a Catholic bishop, since they are all Catholic workers. And, ah, a professor of theology, I believe, from Fordham University, which is Catholic. I wasn’t really involved in that. It was it was a novel defense bill quickly and said he publicly he is He’s going to try to appeal that Hirsi cision so well, we’ll have to see what happens. Yeah. All right. Well, uh, how long until the sentencing is announced there? I believe the sentencing will be in January. They each are facing 20 years. I suspect the Department of Justice, pursuant to previous practice will go for the max 20 years from all that. And that includes Lizza Macao, Alistair. He was about to turn 80. So effectively, that will be a life sentence for her. They tried to do this to her husband, Phil Baroud Keeghan in his last plowshares action. Do you plowshares out depleted Iranian Paulish airs and the prosecutor there publicly brag that this is gonna be filled. Baroud Guns last Ryan’s gonna put Phil away for the rest of his life. Um, and we started out facing 40 years. Uh, and at the end of a kangaroo court proceeding, his ah ah, trial attorney was my friend Ramzy Clark. Uh, Phil and the others got two years. Um And then he got out and was sent back on another problem. Paulish Aires Action Foer Probation revocation, I think another six months. So he did get out. And then soon thereafter, he you know he was diagnosed with terminal cancer and died, But at least fill Berrigan died at home surrounded by his wife lives and their children and their grandchildren and and your friends and that not rotting away in some federal hello for crimes against the American Empire. And that is what they’re trying to do once, Macao Alistair that, you know, leases Bin, uh, pain in their neck for the last 50 years since the Americans and Macao, Alistair launched their campaign against the Vietnam War. And they want to put Lizza way for the rest of her life and that, and I don’t mean to diminish the significance of any of the others. But But let’s has been at this for over 50 years. Hey, guys. Scott here, I got some books you should read. The War State by Mike Swanson A great history of Early Cold War No Dev No ops, no I t by Hussein Biotic Johnny How to run your computer business like a good libertarian. Oh, yeah, And don’t forget fool’s errand. Time to end the war in Afghanistan by me Hey, y’all, Here’s the thing. Donate $100 to the Scott Horton show and you can get a Q R Code Commodity disc as my gift to you. It’s a one ounce silver disc with a Q R code on the back. You take a picture of with your phone and it gives you the instant spot price and lets you know what that silver that ounce of silver is worth on the market in Federal Reserve notes in real time. It’s the future of currency in the past to commodity discs dot com, or just go to scott horton dot or ge slash Donate. Hey, guys, you know you probably need a new website a lot of people do. What you need to do then is go to expand designs dot com the great Harley Abbott and his team over at expand designs dot com. They’ll hook you up with a great new website for 2019 and in fact, what you really should do his type in expand designs dot com slash scott, and you’ll save $500. And listen, I have to say, I told her this to that. I’ve always known that there is this nun or a group of nuns and priests that do these actions and break into these nuclear weapons facilities in order to protest and bring attention to them. And that’s not exactly the same thing. And I guess there Catholic workers, you know, party background, whatever. It’s not exactly the same thing is just a bunch of I don’t know, eight Ashbury hippies or something like that. It’s a priest and his wife, okay? And then But I and I never knew a lot about it, right? But I’m just time out, like in my childhood. All my life growing up, I knew that these people existed and that they did this and that they went to prison to make this point and that, you know, along the lines. In fact, this was on the anniversary of Martin Luther King’s assassination that they did this action and that it was part of that tradition. I know you. You talked about the discrepancy there. Um, arguably segregation itself was an illegal regime to, uh but anyways, um, I think this stuff is really important is one of the things that got me interested in the subject as a young kid. And I know I’m not alone in that, so I don’t know how much that’s worth, but it’s not nothing, I guess. You know, for all the sacrifice that they put into this, it’s important to understand they’re there. Their slogan is they shall beat their swords and the ploughshares and their spirits into grooming Kochs. And that comes from the Jewish profits. Micah and is there. And so, uh, these, uh, plowshares, uh, many number Catholic but not all of them are motivated by the example of the Jewish profits. If you go back and read your bible and rule they played, and if challenging the king at that time, the emperor’s the Jewish emperors at that time. And, uh, you know, many of these profits were killed or imprisoned. And if you are interested following that up, there are two books day American late and very Ghouta. A Jesuit wrote, Uh, well, he wrote a series of books commentaries on the Jewish province, And then, ah, Rabbi Abraham Heschel, uh, now deceased. But hey opposed the Vietnam War and supported civil rights for African Americans and marched with Dr King and Selma. You know, my my kind of rabbi, and he wrote a book on the Jewish profits to too. If you really want to understand what motivates CIS people, these people, This was Rebekah Hesh als doctoral dissertation. He wrote to get his doctor in theology so you can get these books and they the PowerShares, try to fit what they are doing into this biblical tradition of prophecy. Yeah, well, um, you know it’s funny, cause all these political figures, I’ll pretend to be very religious. Toobin. When it comes down to it, the state ranks far higher than God or his son on their list. No question. Well, that’s right. And Azzam Lizza, Macao, Alistair pointed out. This is a religion of nuclear Hazmi, and it’s an idolatry. Oh, yeah, Cult of power, cult of death, right? So she’s been very eloquent about it for all these years. And, of course, the other Kings, Bay, plowshares and all the other file sharing since, well, they’ve tried to make this point the best they can in these trials. But again, the federal government and federal judges ah, to a great extent have Mosul Baluch and completely shut down their defenses in violation of their rights and due process a lot. Yeah, and I mean, that’s really one of the most outrageous parts of this, right? You know, for a guy who was raised on Matt locked like me, I know that the state’s gonna almost always win. But when the judge and the prosecutors conspired to just strike down every witness that the defense wants to bring, they’re just not even allowed to put on their case at all. That’s the kind of thing that should never happen in America, you know, and especially in a case like this, where the prosecution could afford to simply just be patronizing and insulting as hell, and asked the judge to give them all six months and a nice $10,000 fine and make the point and shame them for jeopardizing our security or some kind of thing and let them go and treat this like a really bad misdemeanor, which is what it really is. And I mean, for them to go to these lengths to prevent even any semblance of a defense. Ah, by these people who are clearly motivated by the highest purpose is Ah, well, it’s sickening. I don’t know. I could ended that a few different ways, but it bothers me. It ain’t right. Well, you’re right, Scott, and that your listeners have to understand they were each facing 20 years. All they wanted were three witnesses. They wanted the bishop, the professor of theology, of the religious defense and then me on the nuclear weapons aspect. Dan could not come because at the end of the day, because of a prior personal commitment. So sometimes in that type of situation, I do double duty. I’ve actually been qualified in court as an expert on U. S. Nuclear targeting doctrines and strategy. So I was fully prepared to do double duty here, and it were all stripped. That was Hey, they handled effect. Ah, the judge of the feds stripped them of all their defensive. So that’s why I said it was Ah, que grew court was a rubber stamp on a railroad. Sure enough, that’s that’s what it turned out to be. Yeah. All right, well, listen, I’ll let you go. Ah, thank you for so much of time here this afternoon on this very important story and all your great efforts. I wish you guys the best on all the appeals and all of this, and I wish I knew something better to say. Just thanks again for taking the time to go through all this so that people can understand, uh, what the clouds shares are all about and that they are acting as they see it as profits in the tradition offthe e of the Jewish Bible. Right? All right, well, thank you again. Everybody that is Francis Boyle, professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law. All right, shall thanks Find me at Libertarian Institute Dot or GE at scott horton dot or ge antiwar dot com and reddit dot com slash scott Horton Show. Oh yeah, and read my book Fool’s Errand Timed and the War in Afghanistan at Fool’s errand dot us.[/expand]

Podcast: Play in new window | Download