Scott Horton 0:10
All right, shall welcome it’s Scott Horton show. I am the director of the libertarian Institute editorial director of anti war.com, author of the book fool’s errand, time to end the war in Afghanistan. And I’ve recorded more than 5000 interviews going back to 2003, all of which are available at Scott horton.org. You can also sign up for the podcast feed. Full archive is also available@youtube.com. Slash Scott Horton show.

All right, you guys on the line. I’ve got Richard booth. He is an independent journalist. And he has specialized in the cover up and the real story behind the Oklahoma City bombing of April 19 1995. And we have now at the Libertarian Institute reproduced his entire research archive of documents and very good journalistic reports on this story. And all of that is available at libertarian institute.org/OKC will have every single thing you need. And it’s really mostly a repository of firsthand sources of documents for researchers to base their journalism off of. And there’s some good journalism in there too, but it’s a lot of raw intelligence, as they would put it, and absolutely can serve as the basis of all kinds of new great investigative journalist reports if investigative journalists would feel so inclined to do so. For example, Richards article that we’re running on the libertarian Institute front page right now, Timothy McVeigh suspects, visit strip club in weeks before bombing. Welcome back to the show. How you doing, Richard?

Richard Booth 2:12
Very good. Thank you for having me, Scott.

Scott Horton 2:15
Man, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate all the work that you’ve put into this and then letting us mirror it all at the libertarian Institute. We’ll be keeping this archive for safekeeping from now on at libertarian institute.org/OKC. But let’s start with this article. McVeigh went to the strip club and he was with some people and none of them were Terry Nichols. Is that right?

Richard Booth 2:41
That’s right. It’s right about a week a little over a week before the bombing in Tulsa, Oklahoma. There’s a strip club there called lady good divers. And this was a story that came out more than a year after the bombing, but it’s one that was followed up on by an Oklahoma drill. Analyst named JD cash. A excellent journalist, also followed up on by Canadian film crew for their program, the Fifth Estate, which is kind of like our 60 minutes. And basically, McVeigh went to this club and he had two people with him or not Terry Nichols. And that is obviously very interesting to look to see who he’s he’s hanging out with, you know, that close to the bombing. And what makes this encounter so special is that the the club had an audio and video surveillance system in the dancers prep room, you know, cuts down on crime, it was kind of for safety purposes. And when the owner of the clubs reviewing the tape, he saw and heard an encounter between his server and one of the dancers, it was a bit alarming to him. And the server was talking about an unusual customer that she had that Evening. And she actually repeated to the dancer what this gentleman had told her. And what he told her was he said, I’m a very smart man. And on April 19 1995, you’ll remember me forever. And at the time, of course, it didn’t really make a lot of sense. It sounded rather bizarre. But in retrospect, the owner of the club recognized immediately how serious it was. And he contacted the FBI who did show up and they did take confiscate that tape, but not before JT cash made a copy of the tape and had given a copy to the Fifth Estate, and they ran a program on it. Now for your listeners who are going to access this archive, they’ll be able to look at the transcript of the Fifth Estate program while I have the transcript in there. I’ve got articles by JD cash about the the encounter in the audio tape, and then there’s that short piece that I wrote that just kind of summarizes what happened. And it cites at the end of this article I’ve written it cites various pieces and a person can go and they can look in the archive and they can look at all those primary sources themselves.

Scott Horton 5:15
Right and then in the documentary by Jon Ronson, they feature the video itself in there they have the clip of the garage talking, and people can see themselves and they and they also interview on camera, the owner and his wife, I think, right?

Richard Booth 5:33
That’s right. The owner Floyd Radcliffe and his wife Julie are interviewed on camera in that that documentary from Ronson which it’s about 18 years old now, but it’s worth looking at. And that was also aired on the Canadian Fifth Estate program. They aired the the clip. I’ve isolated it and get a copy of it up on YouTube. It’s a short two or three minute segment from an documentary a really good one that I recommend people look at called terror from within, which came out in about 2002. And it focuses on McVeigh having been a neo nazi rather than this militia guy, which that’s really what he was, was a neo nazi and the people who are with him that night at that strip club, they were picked out of photo lineup by the witnesses. JD cash writes about this and so does the Fifth Estate. These people in their investigations showed a photo lineups of multiple individuals to these people. The bottom line is one of these guys had a German accent. And he was very easily identified as a German national a man named Andrea Strasse Mir and the third person was identified by photos evidently, as stressed as roommates at lm city which is a gentleman by the name of Michael brusha, who is a member of a neo nazi terrorist group at that very time.

Scott Horton 7:05
And well, and people will see, that’s just the beginning of that thread. And there’s plenty of, you know, again, FBI documents, official government documents in the research archive here, where so many of these ties can be, you know, identified and solidified. It’s it’s pretty far beyond speculation to the realm of, I would say beyond the reasonable or even beyond a shadow of a doubt that McVeigh was in conspiracy with these guys from the area and Republican Army to do this attack. Would you agree with that?

Richard Booth 7:46
I would agree with that. My suspicion is that the members of the area and Republican Army, certain members were involved in the bombing and in fact had been accused of having been involved in the bombing. By other people in that group when when the all that group was busted by the FBI, and they most of them went to prison. Several of them identified one or more particular members and said specifically, these guys has something to do with the Oklahoma City bombing. And so that’s something that I think that people can look at and they might be surprised to find out by looking at the news reports, the FBI also believe this and in April of 1995 April 28. newspaper reports ran, which said that the FBI believe the bombing was financed through a series of unsolved Midwestern bank robberies, which as it turns out, were robberies carried out by the so called area and Republican Army. And so early on in the investigation before the story kind of started changing. The FBI spoke to reporters and you can read what they say. He said to reporters, and you can read those earlier reports and see that they very much knew this was the work of four or five people.

Scott Horton 9:06
Hmm. Well, I want to go ahead and add this very important quote from the book, Oklahoma City by Roger Charles and his writing partner here, Andrew Gumbel, who’s a reporter for The Guardian. And they wrote this book, Oklahoma City, what the investigation missed and why it still matters. And on page 328, they have a quote here from Larry Mackey, who was a federal prosecutor who helped to prosecute Nichols. And, you know, this is a little bit unclear because of the double negatives and so forth kind of thing the way he constructs it, but I think people can understand he says, if you had said to us, anybody in the room, 100% confident that McVeigh was alone, raise your hand. We would have all kept our hands in our laps.

Richard Booth 9:56
Mm hmm.

Scott Horton 9:56
Meaning In other words, he and his entire team he believes, never believed that this conspiracy was just Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. And they go on I’m not sure if it’s on the same page or not. But they make it clear that essentially, their excuse is not the author’s but the people that are writing about the feds excuse was that they didn’t want to jeopardize the death penalty case against McVeigh by pointing to the rest of the guilty, because even though they all deserved at least life, they were worried that if they implicated anyone else that would jeopardize the death penalty case against McVeigh. And so they went ahead and made that decision that killing the probably the most important member of the plot. I think we agree about that was more important than locking them all up for life, which sounds like government work to me. Although you know, I’ve long suspected and I think either of us could prove pretty easily that it went beyond that, right? They had a real reason to cover up who all was involved because of other federal government employees relationships with those co conspirators, right?

Richard Booth 11:18
No, that that I’m glad you bring that up because that’s an excellent book on the bombing, I highly urge or recommend that people read that book. And it’s true that the prosecutors were basically working with what they had, which is they have Timothy McVeigh, they can assemble a very good case against him because he absolutely was, was involved in this bombing, and was one of the principals but on the other hand, they knew that the FBI had did not apprehend some of these other people. And to focus on that, to talk about it or to otherwise highlight it would only cause skepticism in the minds of some jurors who might, well could have been argued by the defense team that oh, this guy McVeigh was just a foot soldier. He’s just taking orders. So they really, really had to get away from that issue of other people. But I urge people to go just look at the archives read the read the news reports, and the FBI reports from April in May of 95. And even and then in May of 97. And two years after the bombing, there was a news cycle, whereby about two weeks over a period of two weeks over all news report after news report about a third suspect in the bombing. This is a man that the FBI investigated for five years to try to locate guy who went by the name of Robert Jax was an alias the man was using and this man was trying to purchase property with McVeigh and nickels that had a cave on it. And the FBI in the in that Ronson documentary that you mentioned, they’ve got a thing that was in that one. If not, it was in the terror from within. They’ve got a quote from Bob Rex at the FBI talking about this gentleman. And Rex is saying, Yeah, you know, we believe that that they were looking for a place to hide with this guy. And this gentleman was he, according to the witnesses, he was the boss man. He was the guy who did all the talking asked most of the questions. McVeigh and Nichols were both there with him. And this third gentleman who went by the name Robert Jackson is somebody that the FBI never could locate. He becomes one of the first of the others unknown. In this case of which the FBI believed and I believe there were four to five of these other people.

Scott Horton 13:41
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Hey, you guys may know I’m involved in some libertarian party politics this year, but you can’t hear or read about that at the libertarian Institute due to 501 c three rules and such. So make sure to sign up for the interviews feed at Scott Horton. org and keep an eye on my blog at Scott Horton. org slash stress.

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Well now and I wanted to point out here real quick, too, that this cover up that they described as being so necessary to guarantee the conviction and death penalty case against McVeigh. It almost cost them a conviction against Terry Nichols. And the original vote was tempted to to acquit Terry Nichols, who I think we both agree was guilty and was in on this. But what had happened was the government didn’t prove it because they couldn’t prove it without telling too much of the story. And so essentially, they just try to guilt trip the jury into going along with it which eventually they did. But they found him guilty of, I think just manslaughter or even involuntary manslaughter or something, rather than give the government the full murder conviction, you know, the the conspiracy and everything else that they were trying to get. And, in fact, the McVeigh jury had the same problem. And in the archive, people can hear the audio clip that I had taken from 60 minutes, where they interviewed one of McVeigh’s jurors, where she is just purely rationalizing and says, Well, you know, she’s the subtext leading up to it is they never really proved a case at all. And so she says, Well, I was just waiting for the defense to call someone to provide McVeigh an alibi, and say it couldn’t have been him because he was with me that day. And since that never happened, I figured that I guess he really did do it. Right. In other words, Cops are really sure. And they’re guilting me into voting guilty, but they haven’t convinced me they have no evidence. Now the burden of proof is on the defendant to provide an alibi, otherwise, he must have been the guy. And that’s clearly her just filling in the gaps. Like when you’re trying to make sense out of something, George W. Bush said, you just have to put words in there to make it make sense. And that’s what she does here. She just tries to figure out a way to make it make sense. And of course, you know, he was guilty, but the prosecution spent the whole time interviewing. I remember in one specific case, it was a little girl who had lost her mom and I think her Auntie at the same time they’re, and was like nine years old and was wounded herself. And they put her on the stand and they asked her, you know, how do you feel ever since losing your family members, and she cries and says I feel terrible? And they say, Okay, thank you no further questions. And this is how they convicted the guy because they couldn’t prove that his guilty ass was guilty without implicating again, these other Nazis were not unknown to the Federal Police before this whole thing happened and what they call embarrassment that the rest of us would call, you know, criminal culpability comes into play here that this is why we’re not going after Richard Guthrie and Michael Brescia is because they work for us, or they used to and we supposedly we’re keeping tabs on them. This kind of deal.

Richard Booth 18:27
Right no, I’m glad you mentioned that because at the trial, you’re very correct insofar as that they had witness after witness that they brought in who were sent. These are people who are victims, and they just had a parade of victims, which was horrifying to see the real human toll. And the number of people who died or her were maimed in this bombing. But the one thing that stands out to me and to any other students who might look at this case, is they will find no one was called who pointed to Timothy McVeigh in the courtroom and said, that’s the man on saw at the scene of the crime. Not a single person did that. And that was not for lack of witnesses because as the reader will see, there’s the listener will see if they go look in the in the archive, they’re going to find FBI 302 reports which are witness interviews with witness after witness after witness who saw Timothy McVeigh at the scene of the crime. It’s at least 24 different eyewitnesses. Right. That’s on that morning elite. There they had at least 24 FBI had at least 24 that they felt were solid. One of these witnesses. The FBI had pointed him out of a real live lineup downtown at the Oklahoma City command post he said pointed to this guy said that Sam right there pointed McVeigh out. This gentleman had a discussion with McVeigh that morning. And there was another man sitting in the Ryder truck at that time. That was a pretty that was a problem that the prosecution faces if they called any one of these witnesses, and that witness put McVeigh at the scene of the crime. The defense could follow up and say well, who else did you see with Mr. McVeigh? And every one of them would say the same thing. And there was no answer that the the prosecution had for this other person.

Scott Horton 20:09
Yeah. And you know, it’s such an important part of this story is the media rolling over and going along with this. And I remember reading the onion headline was incidents incidence of angel sightings in Oklahoma City goes up by 70% are just mocking these people for being Christians and believing that their loved ones might have gone to heaven or something. Instead of the obvious. Americans go for the lone bomber scenario, and, and mocking and ridiculing the newspaper editor of Let’s count them. Right everybody at set the Rocky Mountain News and the Denver Post who they never really got it together. They ran good articles, but they never really said, Hey, we have a real problem here and tried to make a thing out of it. But meanwhile, The New York Times the Washington Post’s Miami Herald, the Houston Chronicle, the Dallas Morning. A news los angeles times the Seattle post Intelligencer just Dan Rather Peter Jennings and Tom Brokaw and lair and McNeil on the NewsHour, they all went along with pushing this story that this one guy did it. And the fact that they had journalists sitting in that trial, and not saying, well wait a minute, who what else is going on here that you’re not telling us because you’re clearly not telling us everything? And and wanting to fight about that, you know, September 11, made it pale in comparison, in in the public imagination. But what about in the six years in between when this was the biggest deal in the world other than OJ Simpson, which obscure the importance of it for a year there, but still we’re talking about 168 dead government employees and their babies. And they were able to cover this up to such a degree and get away with it with this hoax. That it was this one guy with his Ryder truck and that is closest co-conspirator was 200 miles away in another state at the time that the bomb detonated and hold rights trial circus in the world without calling a single witness to put them at the scene of the crime in which was in downtown Oklahoma City, right at nine o’clock in the morning.

Richard Booth 22:19
Right it you know, while it is an outrage, that’s what the official narrative has become one thing that that really plays into this being the tragedy that it is, and the injustice that it is, is that you know, people have a short memory, things will appear in the news and they’ll come they’ll go and they’ll maybe Forget about him. And if a person goes and looks at this archive, and they look at the news reports, just just read them in Chronicle chronological order for April and May just read those first two months. And what you’re going to find are newspapers that actually did publish interviews with witnesses who they found were credible, and you’re going to be reading about people who saw john doe number two people who saw Timothy McVeigh at the scene of the crime, and every one of them, seeing them with another person, and these people, these were quoted in the paper. These were people who many cases were very credible. A bank executive, you know,

Scott Horton 23:13
with john doe, is the biggest manhunt in world history until he didn’t exist, and was all right.

Richard Booth 23:19
And that is what really caused a burning passion in me for this case, because I’ve followed it in the paper, and I’m thinking, Okay, they’re gonna get john doe number two, one of these days, you know, it’s been almost a month, and then I believe it was in June and 95. And the FBI said, he did he doesn’t exist. I said, Okay, I was born at night, but I wasn’t born to last. You know, last night, something is going on here. And I’ve been just very curious about it ever since. And the the evidence that people can look at here was overwhelming, not just Meteor accounts there. There are FBI documents, Secret Service documents, and just a whole host of things and it’s going to cause people to very quickly realize that there’s more to the story.

Scott Horton 24:04
Now, so I wanted to mention here I see you have all your footnotes in the article that we’re running today. Timothy McVeigh suspects visit strip club in weeks before bombing by Richard booth April 9 2020. At the libertarian Institute, if you paste down to the bottom, it’s all your sources there. And the last one is the link to that YouTube video where people try to see and hear for themselves as the strippers talk about boy there was this weird creepy guy who talked about how famous he’s going to be one day out there, bla bla bla explaining all of that in the context around it too, I think taken from Jon Ronson documentary there. And you know, people really should take a look at that. So that they can see it for themselves.

Richard Booth 24:48
Well, you know what, Scott, if people if they view that video, and you know, that’ll be one shocking thing, but one thing that they can they can consider in and this is what I was thinking of when I wrote that article is if Timothy McVeigh is going to be bragging to some stripper that he just met five minutes ago, about how on April 19, she’s going to remember him forever. And it’s obviously then on his mind that evening. What are the odds he’s going to discuss that same subject matter with the people that he’s there at the club with? And I’d bet on those odds. I bet if he talked about it that, yeah, if he talked about it that night with his dancer, he’s going to be talking about it with the two people who are with him, which was, you know, Andrea Strasse mirror and Mike brusha. And I think that both of them might have some explaining to do. Yeah, of course, dress beard

Scott Horton 25:42
in fact, admitted to Ambrose Evans Pritchard, essentially that he was guilty. You know, he has he admitted it in rhetorical question form, like, Yeah, but how could I come forward if it was all my fault in the first place? Because I was an agent provocateur. I gotta go. I forgot the exact quote, but it’s very much like that.

Richard Booth 26:01
It was incredibly incriminating if you read Ambrose Evans pritchards interview with Andrew Strasse Meir Pritchard did a an amazing job as an investigative journalist, he all bit got this guy to admit that he was in the truck five minutes before the bomb went off. And since then strassman has gotten much better with PR. And he does now deny things he owed. I denied ever knowing McVeigh deny this tonight that but if you go back and look at what he said to Ambrose Evans Pritchard in 1997, he had certainly had a different tune at that time. And anybody who studies this guy and looks into his history, they’re gonna find that a person does not just up and decide one day that they’re a neo nazi and say, I think I’m gonna move into a neo nazi compound. One day, they’re normal The next day, they’re a neo nazi. That doesn’t happen. And so –

Scott Horton 26:52
I have a book here, but all my notes, all my bookmarks have fallen out. So I’m not going to be able to read y’all the quote. Unfortunately, the book is the book is called The Secret Life of Bill Clinton, which is a stupid title. And it’s not even about Bill Clinton at all. It’s, I mean, he’s hardly even in the book. But that’s what the publisher called it to get it read. But it’s Ambrose Evans Pritchard from the Telegraph and it’s solid journalism on Oklahoma City, you know, everyone will really appreciate it. Sorry, I don’t have that. I pulled it off the shelf and I used to have this book was full of little yellow post it note bookmarks, but they’re all gone now. But you know, something else that was in that video, that same documentary is and this is something that was in pritchards book that I always cited pritchards book for this. But it turns out that Jon Ronson has Bob Rick’s on video and people will remember Bob, Bob Rick’s was the spokesman for the FBI during waco so whenever you see on waco the rules of engagement, and the guy is up there going we put massive gas in there and the women and children had to have been suffering. That’s him Bob bricks and he was the head of the Tulsa office of the FBI. And he admits on camera to Jon Ronson, that, yes, the ATF had an investigation into this Nazi compound that you mentioned eloheem City out east to Tulsa there. And that he shut them down. He’s happy to admit that he stopped the ATF. He was afraid they were going to do another stupid waco raid. And after all, they might right but then the implication was we’ll handle it, but then they didn’t handle anything at all. And in fact, it looks like the ATF undercover informant who was informing the ATF about this conspiracy there at the time, Carol Howe was actually informing on a conspiracy that was made up of a bunch of FBI informants, and I don’t know exactly who Strauss Meier was working for, or if you do, but most of those guys were informants or flip state’s witnesses. You know, the important ones involved in the area and Republican Army and all of that kind of thing there. And so maybe that’s the reason why Bob Rick’s never did follow up on the ATF investigation that really was leading somewhere.

Richard Booth 29:15
You raise a very good point and I think I haven’t a little bit of an alternative viewpoint on that and to kind of, yeah, to let people know the circumstances it is just as you said, basically, the FDA or that is the ATF is about to do a raid on lm city. They’ve had an undercover investigation. They have proof the laws are being broken. They know that firearms, they’re being converted automatic, they have their informant, they’re ready to have a raid. And so they have a meeting with the FBI. Bob Rex is at this meeting, like you mentioned. And what happens here is the FBI puts a halt to the raid. And now here’s where I have this alternative opinion. Bob, Rick says The reason for halting that rate is he wanted to prevent another waco. Well, this is how I look at it. What if Bob Rick’s or his people at the FBI had an ongoing intelligence gathering operation at LFM city, and they had an informant in place, that operation would be just completely ripped apart and just just crapped on if another agency comes in and does some kind of raid. And so I and –

Scott Horton 30:32
That makes sense then to that whoever the FBI informant was, or if it was more than one, that they were essentially double agents shine in the FBI on while they were planning this attack, which would also go to explain the two Ryder trucks that it’s abundantly clear that there were two different trucks. And so one of them was the decoy for the idiot Feds to chase around in circles while the other one was actually full of a bomb.

Richard Booth 30:57
Right, right. And you know, interestingly, that’s the story. tactic that was practiced by one member of the air this area and Republican Army bank robbery squad, that one of their members, Richard Lee Guthrie, this guy was really an antisocial personality, but very, very intelligent. And what he would do is he would actually get dropped cars and he would register them in the names of FBI agents, or he would get two drop cars that were the same make and model. And so they’d have two cars that were identical. He did these sort of these sort of smoke and mirrors type tricks, because he’s thinking ahead, he knows an investigation is going to be coming up, and he’s thinking what can I do to confuse that investigation? So when we talk about the potential of there being two writer trucks, which is what the witnesses bear out, I look at that and think now that’s a Richard Guthrie tactic. And there’s just there’s a lot of material people can dig into to see what potential links are between the area and Republican Army and McVeigh but why I’ll, I’ll just say this. The FBI believed that Timothy McVeigh was involved in bank robbery. His sister told the FBI that he, he told her that he was involved in bank robbery and had her launder some proceeds from it. And they believed the bank robberies finance the Oklahoma City bombing. And well, the biggest bank robbery group at that time, who had the exact same ideological beliefs as Timothy McVeigh were the Aryan Republican Army

Scott Horton 32:28
and ties to eloheem City, which is right down the block from the strip club.

Richard Booth 32:33
That’s what it’s Yeah, ties to lm city where there’s a place where they all congregate in the strip club. It’s in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Yeah. But Tulsa is if you’re going to go to a big city. If you’re going to leave the compound lm city, you’re probably going to go to Tulsa. You’re probably going to go to Oklahoma City. Yeah.

Scott Horton 32:50
Okay, well, listen, we’re out of time for this and got a run. But there you have it, everybody. The beginnings. Oh, I want to mention I have to mention here you mentioned Guthrie, and that for people who are familiar who’ve been listening to the show for a while, you’ve heard me interview Jesse Trentadue, whose brother Kenny was murdered by the cops, the Federal cops at a transfer station in the summer of 95. And it’s virtually certain that he was a case of mistaken identity, and that the cops thought he was Guthrie. And that’s how the confrontation with him began and how he ended up dead, which is a long, complicated story. But in the archives, you can find in search of john doe, to by James Ridgeway and Mother Jones, an excellent piece on it. And in my archives, you can find all my interviews that Jesse I don’t know how many there are five or 10, or something going back over the years about that. And so I’ll really encourage people to pick up the trail from that end if you want as well. Great stuff there. And that’s it. I’m sorry, we got to go. But everybody that is Richard booth, and he wrote this piece Timothy McVeigh suspects visit strip club in weeks before bombing that’s it the libertarian Institute libertarian institute.org He has compiled this magnificent archive of original source material on the truth behind the Oklahoma City bombing of 1995. And we have it all for you for free, of course, at libertarian institute.org/OKC. Thank you, Richard. Appreciate it.

Richard Booth 34:21
Thank you, Scott. It’s always a pleasure. And I’m glad to work with you to bring this this archive to the public.

Scott Horton 34:27
And boy, am I glad that you are to man it’s really something else that we have this so thanks again for sure.

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