07/15/13 – Cori Crider – The Scott Horton Show

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All right, y'all, welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton.
It's the Scott Horton Show.
Our first guest today is Corey Kreider from Reprieve, the human rights activists/lawyers from the UK.
And they've got this brand new report here, which is called Hunger Strike Report.
Wait.
It's got a real title here.
Down the Tubes, the 2013 hunger strike at Guantanamo Bay.
Welcome to the show, Corey.
How are you doing?
Yeah, I'm great.
How are you?
I'm doing great.
I really appreciate you joining us on the show today.
And I got about two thirds of the way through this horrible thing.
And I mean, not that you guys didn't do a great job on it, just you did a great job on a horrible thing here.
That's all right.
I'm just proud you got it that far.
Yeah.
Well, I just I ran out of time.
I might have finished it, but man, so I guess my first question is about your role specifically here.
You you are a lawyer and your job at Reprieve is what exactly?
And have you gone to Guantanamo?
You personally represent some of these men or what?
Yeah, I do.
So I'm the strategic director of the of the team here that works on Guantanamo and related issues to do with the whole so-called war on terror.
I've been going to Guantanamo myself since about 2007 for the people who are quoted in that report.
I have been saying in the same corner of southeastern Cuba, you know, for about six years now.
A lot of them have been cleared for the vast majority of that time, which is the whole cause of the strike, really.
Right.
But now.
So it's fair to say that you are the lawyer for some of these men.
I'm the lawyer.
I'm not the only lawyer for all of them.
We have a team of lawyers, including some co-counsel in the U.S., but I'm I am the lawyer for all of them.
Yeah.
OK, right on.
Oh, wait.
And now define all that's all in the report.
Correct.
In the report.
Not not in Guantanamo.
Right.
That's too much for one law.
I just wanted to make sure, because I was going to say that's a heavy caseload there.
Not like the law applies to anything that's happening here.
But anyway.
OK, so now that we're past that, let's talk about this hunger strike.
It started in February, correct?
Mm hmm.
And as Jason Leopold has explained on the show, it was really the reaction to the suicide of Adnan Lateef and the clampdown.
And they had driven him to it in the first place, of course.
And then if that's even 100 percent clear, I think it pretty much is.
But then the clampdown from there is really what precipitated the hunger strike that began in February.
Is that about right, you think?
I think.
I think.
I think the spark of the whole thing back in February was this this search of the Koran that really offended a bunch of people because the deal had always been with the Gitmo authorities that that was just going to be off limits.
And I think everybody thought that that was basically a violation of a year's long agreement between them and the camp.
But the truth is, I always tell people, it's kind of like a fight you have with your partner, your husband or your wife.
You've been with them for a long time, like whatever it's about is not what it's about.
The fundamental issue is the fact these people have been here for nearly a dozen years, no charge, no trial and no hope of release.
That's the that's the basic issue.
Sure.
Yeah.
It's just the, you know, a single spark that kind of, you know, changes the dynamic or whatever.
Yeah, I think that's right.
Yeah.
And then.
So now the latest news is that, well, assuming this is true, I don't know, the latest reports are that 15 have gone off the hunger strike and have finally began to eat if for, I guess, because of Ramadan.
Yeah, I think it's important to take the Defense Department's view on this stuff with an enormous grain of salt.
I haven't talked to all of my clients on the phone since they made that claim.
But the one we did actually talk to one of them late last week, and he didn't say anything about the numbers going down.
He was one of the people who's being forced fed and is in the report on mental basha.
And, you know, I think what may be going on here and we're just going to have to talk to more people on the phone this week to confirm is that the military insists that everybody stay in isolation if they're hunger striking, supposedly so that they can look after them.
But I think fundamentally, because it's hard to hunger strike.
And one of the few things that makes it bearable is the support of your fellow prisoners.
So anyhow, it's Ramadan now.
And a traditional thing for Muslim and Ramadan is to do the last kind of prayer of the day together.
Right.
That's that's one of the basic things of the holiday.
And I think to do that, I think the military basically said, well, y'all are going to have to take some food if we're going to let you get out of solitary to do it.
And so it may be that a few people said, OK, well, I'll take your so-called clamshell.
That's the military lingo for the styrofoam container that they put the meal in.
And I might take a tiny thing out of it just so that you say that I've had a meal.
But the reason to do it is just to pray together.
That's the kind of indication we've gotten from a couple of conversations with people, but I don't know it for sure.
And I would just caution everybody not to assume that, you know, that it's all that it's all over and done with.
I mean, the other thing I would say is, look, the military has been trying to break these strikers from the absolute beginning.
Right.
Their response to people not eating has not been, hey, let's talk, let's negotiate.
Let's go back to the grievances that you have and see if we can find some kind of a compromise.
No.
Instead, they've raided the cells, put everybody in isolation, taken away their family and their legal mail and started groping them four times to go and talk to attorneys or their families in an effort just to make it so difficult for people that they'll just conclude it isn't worth it.
Now, it's possible, right, that after a couple of months, four months plus of that stuff, that some of the prisoners will decide it just isn't worth it to go on.
I think actually, in the end, they'll probably only harden some people's resolve.
But but bottom line is, you really got to you really got to take that stuff with a grain of salt when it comes out of DoD.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, listen, nobody would blame anybody for breaking down and getting a bite to eat or whatever.
I can't imagine deliberately starving myself.
You've got to be in a horrible position to do that.
And by the way, could you just sort of go off for a little bit about what exactly a hunger strike is and exactly how it is this works?
I mean, basically what they're doing is they're they're threatening slow motion suicide.
Basically, the government sticking a tube down their throat to prevent that.
And we'll get to that.
But there.
But it's not just that they're giving up.
They're ready to die.
And this is the only way to kill themselves.
They're trying to get the American people, such as they are, to force the government to go ahead and end the predicament that they're stuck in their indefinite detention.
So it's it's a cry for help, but it is an attempted suicide at the same time in a way to write.
Yeah.
I mean, I want to be really clear with your listeners about this, because I've had a lot of long, hard to heart conversations with my clients about this.
You know, I've been with them for years.
I've been trying to get them out all that time.
Obviously, for one of my clients, detention to end in a death by voluntary starvation is a huge failure from my perspective.
And so I've said this is this is serious.
Are you are you serious about it?
We also went to you know, we went to the judge for four of our clients about two weeks ago now and said, stop the force feeding.
It has to stop.
And I said to them, I said, look, if you if you win this motion, you're going to have a choice.
You're going to have a choice to continue your strike potentially until you become irretrievably ill or die or or you're going to drop your strike and start eating.
And they say, look, they've all basically said, look, it's not that I want to die.
I don't want to die.
I want to go home.
I want to see my family again.
And some of their cases, because they were so young when they were picked up, they said, I just want to start a family.
But I've been clear for years.
I am completely running out of hope.
And it seems to me that this is the only option I have left.
So, yeah, for people who don't have a bit of background on hunger striking, these people are.
And since the start of February have basically been refusing most, if not all nutrition.
Most of my clients have lost between a quarter and a third of their body weight to somebody who maybe started at one hundred fifty or go down to one hundred twenty or less.
And at that point, once you drop that much of your weight, the military tends to start force feeding you.
Now, there are all kinds of crazy things about the way they do it that they get to.
But one of the most dangerous things, actually, is that to keep the numbers of force fed prisoners down, they wait for a long time before they start the force feeding.
So a prisoner got a faint several times on the block and be hospitalized for a hypoglycemia and what have you before they will actually commence force feeding.
And, you know, it doesn't take a genius to imagine that one of those prisoners could be in camp five, pass out and brain himself on a sink, and then you really do have a tragedy on your hands.
So far, I'm happy to say that hasn't happened.
But the longer the strike goes on, the more concerned I get about one of those things happening.
Well, I really want to allow you all the time you need to describe the process of the hunger strike and some of the discrepancies in the media here and that kind of thing in a minute.
But you also have there's a part of this report where you talk about the different methods that the government is going through to try to break the strike.
As you said, they are not trying to work these things out at all.
They're simply trying to force everyone.
One of the things that you mentioned previously also was the solitary.
They're separating everyone so they can't reaffirm to each other that are you still sticking with it?
Good.
I am, too.
They're probably lying to him, too, and tell him they're the last ones left and whatever.
But I just was hoping you could talk more about how they're trying to break the will of these men.
Yeah, absolutely.
One of the generals at SOUTHCOM, which is a part of DOD that runs Guantanamo, said, oh, this is just a hunger strike light.
And I just thought to myself, man, when was the last time you ever missed a meal, much less missed, you know, two, three hundred in a row?
But the military has just reacted with total bloody mindedness.
So they put everybody who was striking in isolation.
They raided the cells.
They took everything out of their cells.
My client, Eunice Shikori, a cleared Moroccan guy, said to me, man, my shoes are my pillow right now.
I really don't.
I'm trying to get a toothbrush.
I mean, they don't have anything.
And, you know, the other thing is there's not a lot to do if you're sitting there in your cell in isolation for twenty two odd hours a day.
And they took from them the few things that they would have used to pass the time and not to think about their hunger.
So people used to have some books, for example, most of those were taken away occasionally because Barack Obama, at the beginning of his presidency, made things a bit better.
They would even be able to go and get a little bit of news of the outside world from TV.
I used to have clients occasionally say, hey, I saw you talking about Guantanamo.
Yeah, none of that anymore.
And their letters from their kids or their parents, those are gone now, as well as their legal mail.
There's this whole kerfuffle now because the military put all those attorney client privileged letters in one, as far as I can tell, a whole bunch of bins.
And they say, we don't know whose is what.
And they're like, but don't worry, judge, this isn't contempt of court.
We're going to sort it out.
And then the thing I think is most troubling about it is we'll get to the fourth thing, but the other thing that's most troubling is this this effort to stop information coming out about the strike.
So, you know, if you go to Guantanamo, you're not going to ever be permitted to interview a prisoner.
You go on a sort of show tour where they take you through the facilities, you see the shiny modern facilities, and they'll show you the kind of many thousands of calories of culturally appropriate meals that the prisoners aren't eating and stuff like that.
But you won't be able to interview a prisoner.
And one of the few ways that we, the lawyers, have been able to get the information out to the outside world is by talking to our clients, either by going to see them at Gitmo or by talking to them on the telephone.
Now, after the strike had been going for a few weeks, the military suddenly instituted this search policy where they said, we got to make sure these people don't have contraband on them when they go see their lawyer or when they talk to their lawyer on the phone.
Now, I ask you, in what possible way is my client going to hand me contraband over the telephone?
But anyway, so...
Haven't you seen The Matrix?
Oh, sorry.
That was terrible.
Exactly.
That was terrible.
So anyway, look.
So to go and...
If my client wants to come out and talk to me, until last week when a federal judge basically told him to stop this, he had to go into a room two times, two and two times from the call, be surrounded by a bunch of MPs, and they would feel him up.
I mean, the TSA is nothing compared to what he would go through.
And I don't know.
I've had some pretty shocking, shocking searches by the TSA in the past few months, but I mean, much worse.
I mean, by a whole group of MPs, and this is a man who's lost a lot of weight and is sick and is feeling pretty humiliated anyway.
And some of the clients also say that it has occasionally involved gratuitous cavity searches.
And that stuff is just clearly about stopping the information coming out to the lawyers and by extension out to the outside world.
Now, I'm happy to say a federal judge told the government that it had to stop doing this, but they were pretty obviously trying to interfere with the attorney-client relationship.
And so they're now going to have to accommodate that.
But they were doing it for weeks and weeks, and I had client after client refuse to come to the phone and then write me a letter later and say, I'm sorry, I know that it was you.
I wanted to talk to you, but it was just not worth the groping.
So they've done a whole slew of things to try to suppress the hunger strike.
Yeah.
Wow.
This sounds like a story of some other terrible country.
Not mine, but OK.
Oh, it is down in communist Cuba.
I guess that makes sense.
But it's on the American side of the wall.
That's the problem.
OK, so now Mos Def, as I'm sure you're aware, the rapper Mos Def has volunteered to be force-fed and boy, he sure hated it.
But then all the right-wingers started sending around a video clip of a delicate, pretty little white girl having a tube stuffed up her nose, and her eyes are watering a little bit, but she's OK.
So I guess Mos Def is just, and everybody down in Guantanamo Bay, I guess they're just the biggest crybabies in the whole wide world, if this little white girl can take it.
So that's the end of that argument, right?
Yeah, I did see that.
I think that was the best that the Defense Department could do on short notice in response to Mos Def's video, was to say, oh, well, this is a medical procedure, and so when done by professionals in an appropriate context, it is fine.
But there's all kinds of problems.
I didn't even watch it, but I guarantee you that girl was not strapped into a chair, right, with her legs strapped into a chair, her arms strapped into her chair, her head strapped into a chair.
I mean, what you see there on the Mos Def video is much more like a reflection of what happens to the Guantanamo prisoners.
I mean, look, it's a basic issue, which is concern.
Yeah, I mean, the girl basically, you hadn't seen the video, I'll go ahead and tell the audience here real quick, and you too, it might as well be her own family doctor her whole life long, who's being as gentle as possible, and she's obviously a very willing participant in this for whatever reason.
I don't know if she's a young Republican or whatever, but...
Well, look, well, I imagine this is the standard medical video, don't you?
But anyway, look, the fundamental difference is consent, right?
And we can all, as Americans, understand a basic difference between medical treatment that we consent to and something that a doctor does to us that we don't at all agree to.
And we would all think that.
I think, I don't care if it's a shot or a tube up your nose or whatever, we would all consider that a violation, and no doubt threw the pants off the doctor.
So, I think it's a false comparison, and you know, Mose really did, he was not able to go through the process because he was nervous.
And when you're nervous, the girl is probably relaxed, but when you're nervous, the problem is, and doctors have said this to us, is that the tube tends to catch in the throat and you just can't get it down, right?
So, there's pain in the nose at first, which I think he describes in the video, but then later on, once it passes up the nose and down toward the esophagus, if you're rigid in the neck and you're finding it hard to relax, which, hey, when it's a group of MPs holding you down and a military nurse, you might find it hard to relax, the tube won't necessarily make it.
So, you know, I had clients, a Yemeni guy called Samir Mukbel, for example, who has always been a compliant person, always in the kind of lowest level part of the camp when there was a communal camp before he was in it.
He said, look, I went through some difficult stuff in my early days at Gitmo, but I never felt anything like the first time they put that tube in my nose.
I think it's just a, it's a violation.
I think you feel totally violated when you've decided that you don't want to take food.
This is the last thing left that you have to say.
And the military take even that from you by sending a group of soldiers in riot gear to come pull you out of your cell, throw you in a chair, strap you down, hold your head down and put a tube up your nose and into your stomach.
I just think it's pretty obviously apples and oranges, don't you?
Of course.
Yeah.
It's an absolute nightmare.
It's unbelievable.
Listen, the only reason that the little white girl video thing is credible at all is because of the dissonance, because Americans just cannot accept that our government is as cruel as the Soviet one in at least some ways or whatever.
It just can't be because we're from here and we're the good guys in USA, USA and blah, blah, blah.
And so whatever's going down, uh, going on down there at Guantanamo is I'm sure very sterile and clinical and just fine, or they wouldn't be doing it.
And you know, as long as they're not running video of it on the nightly news of this is what's really happening to these people.
We filmed it today.
Here you go, America to look at, then their imagination is going to give them a nice soft one and, and the, the, the girl in the video or, you know, that video of the girl is going to seem like a pretty plausible argument and I've seen it, you know, like on Facebook or whatever, uh, being passed around.
Oh yeah.
Most deaf must be the biggest sissy in the whole wide world because this girl can take it.
No problem.
People buy it like that because they want to.
Yeah.
I mean, I don't know.
I think the over, uh, I don't know exactly the numbers, but I think the overwhelming reaction to the most deaf video that I've seen, even in the U S press has been one of disgust that this kind of thing could happen in America, as you say, they're all, I, I'm not going to be able to get Fox news, am I?
But, but, but I think even the kind of middle of the road media has been pretty shocked and has responded to it by saying, this is, this is distressing as this, what goes on rather than just taking the DOD line on it.
Um, but the, the Kenston, the consent issue is the fundamental thing.
And you know, you don't have to take the concern about the procedure just from us here at reprieve.
Um, the head of the AMA, the American medical association actually already wrote to Chuck Hagel, uh, secretary of defense saying, this is completely unacceptable.
Um, the first principle of any medical care is consent.
You got to stop this right away.
And of course, Dick Durbin and Dianne Feinstein, two senators who are, you know, have distinguished records, part of the intelligence committee and so forth also have written Obama to say that he needs to stop it.
So, you know, it's not just us who are disturbed by it.
It's, it's people from the center of the political establishment.
Yeah, Feinstein's got her problems, but she is typically pretty good on torture issues and that kind of thing.
Although if they stop force feeding them, then they're just going to starve themselves to death.
Right.
And then they've, the Democrats have a big PR problem on their hand.
Otherwise, what are they going to do?
Release everybody who's already been cleared for release or something?
Well, I don't see it as a light switch.
The thing that my clients have said, we'll get them eating again.
It's not just everybody has to go home immediately, put us on a bus.
A lot of them basically say, I will consider eating when I see a cleared man go home, because then I will believe that it isn't just rhetoric this time out of the Obama administration, like it was every time before for the past four plus years.
I'll really believe that they are serious about getting it done, and then I'll think about having a meal.
I don't even have to be the first person on the plane.
Right.
But let's just see somebody go home.
And the thing that's most frustrating to me is one of the lawyers about this whole circumstance is that he isn't doing it.
He gets up there and he makes a speech saying, is force-feeding who we are, is this the kind of America we want to hand down to our children, which is what he said last May.
And then suddenly it is still going on, and he's not taking the one action within his authority as the commander in chief of the military to stop the hunger strike, which is to transfer a cleared prisoner.
It's clear he has the power to do it, and he's just not doing it.
Frankly, I don't understand why.
Well, I think I do, although it's hardly good enough or anything, but it's just the PR of recidivism.
If anybody who was ever held in Guantanamo ever blows up anything or tries to, particularly a Yemeni, then that'll look bad for the Democrats.
You shouldn't have never let him go, we'll yell Lindsey Graham or whatever, and the Democrats just don't, Obama doesn't want to fight about it, or at least he's as bad as Lindsey Graham on it anyway.
That's certainly the incentive to not do the right thing.
I mean, I think the recidivism thing is totally overblown.
The original DOD statistics on that stuff actually, they used to say the names, they've got smart on that, and they don't give us the names of people most of the time who are supposed to be recidivists anymore, but when they released those old lists, the supposed recidivism of some of those people was giving an interview that was as critical as the United States.
So again, like a lot of this stuff that comes out of the Defense Department, you've got to be skeptical of the statistics.
No, I'm not saying there haven't been people released who have caused problems, there have been a tiny minority of people who have, but as an American, I have to say the idea that we've got to keep nearly 200 people in indefinite detention because we are afraid of what they might do, we're not going to prosecute them, right?
Obama has been said straight up, they revised their figures down, they're only ever going to prosecute less than 3% of the people who were ever held in Guantanamo.
So with those other 97%, are we really going to hold those people until they die?
Well, and the people we're talking about are the ones that they've cleared and admitted never were friends with Zawahiri or else they would be one of the few going on pretended trial.
Exactly.
So they're saying, hey, we can't let this guy go, we tortured him, he might become a terrorist.
So we, just to be clear also to your listeners about what it means for somebody to have been cleared by the Obama administration, that process that the administration did at the beginning when they were trying to close Gitmo, for somebody to be cleared, for my clients to be cleared in that process, the intelligence agencies had to be unanimous, right?
So that's CIA, NSA, all the ones that you and I know about and probably a whole bunch that we don't know about had to conclude that it was okay to send them out of Gitmo.
So the idea that it's somehow, it's unsafe just doesn't hold water.
It's clearly just about political will at this point.
Yeah, it's amazing.
And again, and I'm sorry, this sounds kind of silly because it's where we started the interview and everybody already knows this.
We're talking about far more than half of these people have already been cleared.
And we already knew before that anyway, that most of the people there, even back when it was almost 800 of them, they were all a bunch of Afghan goat herders who were just kidnapped and sold for ransom and whatever.
And that the few who were actual friends of Osama, they were held in torture gulags in Poland and Morocco and whatever.
They weren't brought to Guantanamo or, except with a very couple exceptions, maybe Katani or whatever, until 2005.
And so everybody's kind of known all along and yet it's still, to me, it bears repeating because it gets confused even in my own brain, this is my own guilty conscience talking, is that still somehow these guys are foreigners, they're not Americans, the Bill of Rights doesn't quite apply to them, and they must have been doing something, and no, dammit, these men are innocent men, with very, very, very few exceptions, they are innocent men being tortured still.
There's 166 people left in Guantanamo, 86 of those have been cleared in the process that I just described.
And as far as who they had in Gitmo, right at the beginning when Bush and Rumsfeld were telling the world that they had the kind of cream of the cream of terrorism, this is before, as you say, they brought a few people out of the black site so that they could say they really did have some terrorists there.
Before that, they sent a CIA analyst down with real experience in interviewing Arab prisoners to say, okay, well, great, if this is an intelligence goldmine, then let's go and talk to them.
And he goes down and he interviewed a kind of random sample of people, this is all discussed in Jane Mayer's book called The Dark Side, but anyway, so this guy goes down, interviews them, and comes back and says, you've got a bunch of nobodies, you've got low-level and no-level aid workers, journalists, and Taliban sympathizers, but nobody with any real information about terrorism.
This is just a joke.
But you know, nearly a dozen years, we're still stuck with this quagmire.
That's absolutely incredible.
And you know, it's funny too, geez, I'm sorry, we're real short on time, just a couple minutes, but when they talk about, you know, maybe one day they really will close it and bring the prisoners here, they're not talking about going ahead and adopting so-called American rule of law principles and black-robe judges.
They just want to do the exact same lawless regime only on American soil instead of Cuban soil, sort of, no?
Well, yeah, I don't know whether any of those plans are ever going to go off the ground, but we actually put out a roadmap last week explaining to the administration that there were concrete steps they could take to get it done.
One of them is the transfer of cleared people, but then also with some of these folks, if they want a trial, stop with these rubbish military commissions and just send real judges down to have a kind of constitutionally compliant trial.
Down at Gitmo, if there's this concern about bringing people to U.S. soil, that's not the point.
The point is that they should have rights.
But anyway, I know we're almost out of time.
There's just a couple of things I want to say to your listeners in case they're concerned.
I do encourage people to go and look at the video of Mo Staff being force-fed, because I think it's the closest we're ever going to be able to come to conveying the reality of the situation to people.
And if you get to the end of the video, and it is pretty frankly hard to watch, you'll see a website come up called standfastforjustice.org, and on that website, you'll see anybody who is interested in showing a little bit of solidarity with the Guantanamo prisoners, you can actually pledge a couple of days of hunger strike yourself.
I'm planning to do it in a little while, but just to try it, just to see what it is actually like for a Guantanamo prisoner to refuse meals.
We've had over three years pledged so far, and it's been really successful, so I encourage people to check it out.
Okay, great.
Hey, thanks very much for saying so, too.
Appreciate your time very much on the show.
Great, good to talk to you.
Have a good time on the show, very much.
Yeah.
All right.
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Sorry.
All right.
Thanks.
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