07/03/13 – Will Grigg – The Scott Horton Show

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Hey, I'm Scott.
Welcome back to the show.
I appreciate y'all tuning in today.
My friend Will Grigg is on the line.
He's the author of the great blog Pro Libertate at freedominourtime.blogspot.com, freedominourtime.blogspot.com.
Welcome back to the show, Will.
How's it going?
Scott, I really appreciate the opportunity.
We're doing just fine.
Well, good, good.
I'm very happy to hear it.
Everybody, you ought to read Will's book.
It's really good.
It's called Liberty in Eclipse, and it'll ruin your weekend, man.
It's frustrating, but it's a good thing there, and please check out his great blog.
Now, so here's the thing, Will.
I was watching TV, and they were telling me, I'm really angry at Russia and this Snowden guy right now.
So how severe should the Russians and this Snowden guy be punished, do you think?
The problem with that premise, of course, is that it assumes that Snowden is a criminal and that Russia is somehow a collaborator in his crimes against the American people.
Snowden supposedly has been involved in what has been characterized by Fox News great propagandists as treasonous activities by giving aid and comfort to the enemies of the American people, the enemies in this instance being the American people ourselves, because we were informed by Mr. Snowden.
Actually, it's more confirmation than revelation that the NSA is illegally and unconstitutionally keeping us under comprehensive surveillance in defiance of the Fourth Amendment, among other things.
So Mr. Snowden sought refuge in Russia because it's one of the few places on earth where he had some colorable expectation that he would be protected according to the conventional protocols of diplomacy against the designs of the American government.
In doing so, Mr. Snowden supposedly compromised his reputation because one doesn't seek aid from Russia, given that Russia is an unfree country, unlike the United States, which is ruled by a country, the president of which considers himself empowered to execute anybody upon a whim, and the secret police of which, when they're not engaged in false flag operations and sting operations that are intended to entrap people, are keeping everything that we say on the telephone and everything that we communicate over the internet under surveillance.
That's of course the type of freedom that Mr. Snowden supposedly is rebelling against by seeking refuge in Russia.
And actually, right now, the extent of Mr. Snowden's world is one small section of an airport in Moscow, because he's never actually set foot on internationally recognized Russian territory.
The president of Russia, Vladimir Putin, who of course is a veteran of their secret police apparatus, has made it clear that he would not extend sanctuary, asylum, to Mr. Snowden unless he ceased activities that are characterized as injuring the United States government, which of course somewhat complicates the narrative, because supposedly Mr. Putin, as the heir to the Soviet version of the police state, and as somebody who had been a veteran of the KGB, he supposedly is trying to exploit Snowden, if he hadn't been using Snowden as an agent, for the dark designs of Slavic imperialism, or whatever the party line is now that's characterizing Russian iniquity.
The fact is, there's only one entity on the face of the earth right now, one hyper-power, that claims global jurisdiction, and that is the government headquartered in Washington.
There's only one government right now that's pursuing grand ideological designs to reform the world through revolutionary violence.
That's the government headquartered in Washington.
There's only one entity on the face of the earth that acts as if its writ has universal enforcement everywhere, and that it's not restrained by the written law.
There's only one government, in other words, that follows the Leninist formula of power without limit, resting directly on force, and unrestricted by laws.
That's the government of the United States, and it was from that government that Mr. Snowden, quite intelligently, was seeking some kind of asylum, and right now he's essentially a prisoner in an airport, somewhat akin to Tom Hanks' character in that movie, The Terminal, although this situation is nowhere near as laden with whimsy as that film was.
Yeah.
Um, well, and now, so, here's the thing of it, I mean, on the main point there, uh, the way you, the way you say it, I mean, your, your vocabulary and your language and all your erudition and everything is so sophisticated, I'm just, but I'm not sure that you're really right.
Is America really the U.S.S.R.?
America really is the evil empire, Will?
But I'm from here, man.
I know, and that's a predicament that more than a few Russians have experienced, albeit in the different, in the opposite direction of where we find ourselves.
I'm often, this is sort of an unusual place to take this conversation, perhaps, I'm often reminded of Alexander Carlin, the Olympic wrestler, who in 1988 won the gold medal for the Soviet Union, and then in 1992 won the gold medal for Russia, and in the interval he actually forced his parents to quit the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.
He wanted nothing to do with the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.
He was a Russian patriot.
He still is a Russian patriot, as far as I can tell.
His parents had joined the party for the same reason a lot of people in Russia joined that party, because they wanted to have some hope of material prosperity, and that was the only way that they saw that they could do so in that system.
So when their son became a celebrity, as a gold medalist, particularly in that sport, he was somebody who was a rock star-grade celebrity in the former Soviet Union and in Russia.
Once he had the leverage to do so, he told his mother and father, I want you to have nothing to do with that criminal organization anymore.
It's done nothing but bring disrepute to the country that I love.
That's the anguish of a Russian patriot who, in the 2000 Olympics in Australia, in some of the commentary that I read pursuant to that event, said he was in a really bad situation because he was a Russian patriot who couldn't be proud of his country.
My heart broke when I read that about 13 years ago, because even then I started to sympathize with him along a common wavelength, that somebody who deeply loves my country, I'm frequently mortified by the behavior of the people who impudently presume to rule us, and the fact that they have brought our country into such universal disrepute among people who are not hardwired in to one polarity or the other of the status propaganda we get in this country by way of either Fox News or MSNBC, which are fungible in terms of the way they approach the power of government.
Their only dispute, of course, is which faction gets to control the apparatus of repression.
But in terms of the way that the U.S. government behaves, when it is allowed to do so, it is morally indistinguishable from the Soviet Union.
Now that's not to say, of course, that we're living in a gulag state that's fully realized yet, but in isolated cases we see the true nature of what that government is.
The way it's treating Snowden, for instance, the way it's treated the Al-Awlaki family.
For heaven's sake, we're talking about the murder of a 16-year-old boy at a backyard barbecue apparently in order to send some kind of a message to that family and to others who are similarly situated that the federal government of the United States will not scruple to murder your child by way of retaliation.
You're talking about a government that can take somebody like Jose Padilla and put him in isolation and systematically destroy his mind as a deliberate way of, once again, sending a message as to what the government's willing to do to those it refers to as unlawful enemy combatants.
Under the NDAA of 2011, that same government claims the right to detain indefinitely anybody who is designated that type of a person who's outside the protection of the law.
You take a look at the way they treated Bradley Manning.
Right now the current prosecution strategy in the case of Bradley Manning is to say that by providing to the public that clip called Collateral Murder, which documented a war crime committed in Iraq by U.S. military personnel, that Bradley Manning was aiding the enemy by providing evidence of a war crime committed by U.S. soldiers.
This is a government that recognizes no law, that recognizes no restraints on the powers that it can exercise.
It doesn't exercise its powers perhaps as promiscuously as other governments have in the past, but in principle it's no different.
I've said before that we're living in something that could be described as a soft totalitarian state, but the soft totalitarianism of the quick-hardening variety, and right now we can feel it hardening around our ankles, I contend.
I'm always thinking back more and more lately on Huxley's revision, Brave New World Revisited, where he compares and contrasts 1984 and Brave New World, and how Brave New World is ruled by ultimate social engineering and distraction, whereas 1984 is just ruled by ultimate terror all day long and all night long, every day for your whole life, and that kind of thing.
But you know what we have in America right now, and what we're working on building for ourselves, without argument, beyond dispute, is the perfect synthesis of both, where we got plenty of sports, and we got plenty of movies, and we got plenty of cold beer for you, but if that's not good enough, watch out what happens if you stick your neck out.
You know, like this guy who was going around the other day, who has been going around filming the cops in Hawthorne, California, and so they kill this dog.
Yeah, and he's somebody who had a history with that department, and that department's got a very lengthy history of abusive behavior.
And he got off easy, really, I mean, they could have come to his house.
Yeah, that's of course the object lesson that they're teaching there, and that's a really good illustration of your brilliant analysis of where we are in terms of this diploid or hybrid system of oppression that we're living under.
I remember one phrase from Brave New World Revisited that embedded itself in my memory, and that is perfumed oppression.
When Huxley was talking about the use of distraction as a way of sort of anesthetizing the public regarding the behavior of the government that is claiming jurisdiction over their actions, contrasting that of course with the boot on your neck forever.
The perfumed oppression, of course, is one that entices people into accepting their servitude in exchange for at least the illusion of material comforts.
What we're finding right now is our economic crisis deepens, that there's really less and less purchase that people have upon that dream, upon that prospect of material betterment.
And so I think the other element's becoming more salient, the mailed fist within the velvet glove.
I mean, for decades, we've been luxuriating in the velvet glove, and we've been talking about the quality of its manufacturer and the richness of its texture, but that velvet glove has been revealed beneath it, of course, is the proverbial iron fist.
That iron fist is striking out selectively right now, but when the Department of Homeland Security takes upon itself the task of buying a billion rounds of hollow point ammunition and uparmoring every agency of the federal government that has any kind of interaction with the public, I contend that you're seeing the iron fist flexing itself, and perhaps the entire structure sort of limbering itself up for a potential smackdown of the public at large.
We're seeing that smackdown once again on a selective, person-by-person basis, one of a family, two of a city, if you will.
But I think that there's nothing to restrain the government, apart perhaps from the prospect of full-orbed economic collapse that would put it in a position where it could not pay its legions.
That's about the only thing I can see right now that would be sand in the gears of the apparatus of repression here.
But in terms of the powers it claims for itself and exercises on a limited basis right now, there's really no restraining it, and that's one of the reasons why the Snowden case is so significant.
And the way that the empire apparently used quiet pressure against its so-called European allies that are actually more tightly bound satellites than the Soviet Union ever had, to force down, to skyjack the plane carrying the Bolivian president yesterday, on the suspicion that Snowden might be hidden inside, I can't think of an example to compare to what was done yesterday, in terms of an outright overt act of sky piracy, because of the suspicion that a whistleblower is aboard that jet.
Is that amazing or what?
I just don't even know where to begin starting out trying to make hide or hair of that, other than just how absolutely unbelievable it is.
And I guess it's kind of surprising to me that, maybe just mildly, that the European governments are so quick to go along with something like that, where aren't they going to face some backlash today and tomorrow over that, I don't know, maybe not enough to count.
Not enough to count.
They're, of course, in their own version of what Huxley was talking about, where the welfare state is much more advanced, and I use that term in the same sense I'd use it to describe the progress of a disease, I mean, their version of the welfare state is more advanced than our own, and that's one of the reasons why one of the few things that will make people restive is the prospect that the benefits will no longer keep flowing.
I suspect we might see the same thing happen here in the United States, but they claim, and if you take a look at the aggregate economic power that they can muster, they claim that they're supposed to be a counterweight to the world hegemon, the hyper-power in Washington D.C., but when we come down to cases, it's still pretty much, at least should be obvious to most people, pretty much the case that what Washington decrees, its European so-called allies will carry out, albeit quietly and deniably, and so even France, you know, where on earth is at least the pretense of Gallic independence that Charles de Gaulle was able to display in the 1960s?
One of the reasons why we have the crisis with the gold standard was because there was a residue of national pride in France having to do with the settlement of international accounts, and now, of course, France is completely subpoenaed the same way that, well, you know, it's really interesting.
The only governments, at least that I can tell, as far as I can tell, that are willing to display even the tremor of independence regarding Stoughton are the weak and bullied governments in Latin America, and they're doing so, as far as I can tell, because of reasons of ideological commitment here.
They're left-leaning for historic reasons.
They're somewhat resentful of the Colossus to the north.
I mean, they're perfectly, entirely resentful of American interference in that region and in their countries, but it seems to me that the European countries are completely neutered, and even when Putin starts to dither and equivocate here and to talk about Stoughton as if he'd done something wrong by making matters difficult for the United States government, we get some sense of just how formidable the United States remains, if only because it has the largest and most formidable military apparatus in history, and it's run by people who are sufficiently deranged that they see nothing at all wrong with threatening to inflict havoc and bloodshed upon people who don't conform to their will.
It's really a remarkable, perhaps unprecedented, state of affairs in human history.
A couple of days ago, it might have been yesterday, I posted a brief item on the LewRockwell.com blog where I quoted a passage from The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire about how the world had become a safe and dreary prison for the emperor's enemies, and how there were no places of refuge if you would incur the displeasure of the person who was wearing the imperial purple.
Of course, in geographic terms, that wasn't true.
The Roman Empire dominated most of the known world at the time, in terms of the Western world, what we call the Western world.
But if you were sufficiently adventurous, if you had sufficient means, you could find some place where Roman writ didn't run.
That's not true of where we are right now.
I mean, if the government of the United States can force down Eva Morales's plane in order to force Austrian satraps to conduct a search for an NSA whistleblower, we have reached a point where there is a global hegemon, there is a global imperium, and it isn't the Soviets.
There's still people who want to behave as if Russia threatens the world, as if Russia is seeking world domination in the name of ideology.
Russia's a gangster state, like most states in the world, quite frankly.
It's perhaps more corrupt than most, and of course, owing to their history, there's a certain thick residue of ideological corruption in that country.
But I don't think since the 1970s, there have been more than a half a dozen believing Marxists in Moscow.
They knew that it wasn't going to happen.
They knew that they weren't going to mesmerize the masses and bring about a proletarian global revolution.
But I think that there are people who are sufficiently delusional to believe cognate things in Washington, D.C. right now.
The unfortunate thing is that the people of Washington actually have the means to inflict those fantasies on the world, or at least to kill a lot of people in pursuit of them.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
They don't know what they're doing, though, witness the fact that Snowden is in Russia at all.
I mean, how bad could you blunder that?
Exactly.
I mean, if they were just thinking, you know, remember, too, when Obama was running, all of his defenders back in 07, 08, all of his defenders said, yeah, well, he's horrible on Palestine now, and yeah, he's horrible on the Patriot Act now, and he's horrible on Afghanistan now, but don't worry.
He's just playing three-dimensional chess.
He's so wise that he's 19 steps ahead of everyone on everything.
He's the master game theorist, like the guy in that movie or something.
But meanwhile, Snowden's in Russia right now because somebody blew it.
Yes.
And that, I think, is the real source of aggravation to the people who run things on the part of Mr. Snowden, is that they do not like it when they're made to look inept.
They, of course, dispose of formidable powers, but they're not omnipotent.
They're keeping everything we do under surveillance, but they are not omniscient.
And when somebody, the much-maligned high school dropout who didn't finish community college, is able, by virtue of his native intellect and his curiosity, to achieve that type of a position, and then to use that position in order to expose what they're doing, that accomplishes a number of things simultaneously.
First of all, it confirms that these people are routinely committing crimes against the people in whose name they supposedly govern.
But also, perhaps more importantly, it makes them recognize that there are limits to their powers.
There are limits to their competence.
They're both entirely depraved and utterly incompetent.
And so, naturally, such a person must be destroyed.
It's interesting to me, John Bolton, who, of course, is a war criminal, he was sort of like a Julius Stryker-type character in the Bush administration, said that Snowden committed the worst form of treason, because he was acting as if he were morally superior to the people who are running the government, and the people who take their moral cues from the government.
That's the worst form of treason, that he dared to pit his own intellect and pit his own conscience against the decrees of the government that employed him.
Now...
Like the ants in The Once and Future King.
Exactly.
That's exactly what I was thinking of, and I was also thinking that this is a Simon Pure example of the collectivist mindset.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, what you're talking about is like the theory of the Soviet Union, back when there was a Soviet Union.
Exactly.
It's amazing.
You know, the Soviet Union, although during the Brezhnev era, when they were going after refuseniks and dissidents and putting them in the Soviet mental hospital, they would often diagnose these people with a psychological affliction, because they presumed to have a conscience.
They had an insufficiently developed socialist consciousness, and only somebody who was psychologically deranged would pit his puny individual prejudices against the will of the community.
That's what happened in the 1960s and 1970s under Brezhnev.
So we may have reached sort of, if you will, the Brezhnev point in the decline of the American Empire, which would mean that we've only got another decade or so to go before the whole thing collapses.
I don't know if they can maintain the pretense that long.
But that's a really good example of how, if you want to know who the Soviets are in terms of the maxim, commie is as commie does, then look at Washington, not Moscow.
Yeah, exactly.
And of course, the American system is more of a fascism, but you're just talking about the mentality.
Yeah, exactly.
And fascism, in my opinion, is the default system for every authoritarian or totalitarian system.
They cannot have state ownership of everything, because that obviously doesn't work at all.
So they have to work through corporate cutouts.
And so you have this unholy union of big business, politically protected business, big business with an executive dominated military state.
So the communists always say that, well, they never really tried it.
Yeah, they did.
They just abandoned it in 1921.
Exactly.
With the new economic program, the net men were the new Soviet men.
And they've been, I think, sort of the template of the prototype for every subsequent experiment, large term statism of that sort.
And of course, that's the sort of milieu in which Snowden was working.
He was working with a corporate contractor with the NSA, not with the NSA proper, but with a corporate contractor.
So he was part of that fascist apparatus, and he had a fit of conscience.
And of course, that's the worst form of treason, if you recognize the sovereignty of your conscience.
Yeah.
Well, and you know, the thing of it is that, well, I don't know, I'm a victim of public school brainwashing, the very same script that we all learn about the greatness of America and the greatness of the founders who selflessly did all this wonderful stuff just so that we would have such a great government to live under and all of that, blah, blah, blah.
But you know, at the root of it, the reason, their excuse for why this is all so very legitimate is because at its core, it's about liberty and justice, right?
And that's what we believe in.
As you put it in your article today, there are some of us who are American by accident of birth and, you know, others who think that way, who actually believe in it.
And that's what makes us Americans kind of thing.
And so, you know, I can see how there's a lot of pressure for people to conform and go along with, you know, like Britney Spears said it in the perfect way about Bush, that you just have to trust.
And I don't know exactly who she was parroting, but everyone on TV at that time, anyway, you just have to trust the people with the secret information that they know what's best and all that kind of thing.
There's a lot of pressure for that.
But you know what?
I think also when people learn about the prison system, the first thing about it, they go man, that doesn't seem very liberty and justice for all.
And when they learn about foreign policy, I mean, the first freaking thing about it, they realize that, man, I don't know if that really sounds like the American system.
So I guess I sort of don't see it as an excuse anymore.
Not in 2013, not after millions dead, you know, at least one million dead in the last decade and a complete revolution against the Bill of Rights and all of this.
If people haven't snapped out of it by this NSA scandal, I don't know what the hell is going to happen to us.
Yeah.
Chosen ignorance, of course, is complicity.
And one of the things that you're describing here that I've referred to in my writings that really annoys me is this Gnostic fallacy of government that somehow when the white smoke ascends from the White House and we have a new leader, he somehow becomes elevated above the rest of humanity and he achieves this sort of superhuman status.
That's why you have movies like Olympus Has Fallen referring to the White House, which supposedly is the dwelling of people who are partakers of the divine nature rather than those who are made of the same fleshly clay as the rest of us.
But it's interesting how we just had this summit of war criminals in Tanzania where you had Obama and Bush who were there to mark the anniversary of the attack on the U.S. Embassy in 1998, which, of course, is now consecrated by the fact that there are a handful of Americans who were killed in that terrorist act.
While one of them is giddily hurling drones around Yemen and other places in the Near East and Africa and Asia and killing many, many times that number of people every single week including the 10-year-old boy who was murdered in Yemen just a few days ago.
You've got Bush whose hands are imbrued with the blood of millions of people, as you pointed out.
And yet they're deferred to by virtue of the fact that one of them is the current president, the other one is the demigod emeritus.
There was a woman there in Dar es Salaam who said, I am just forced to see him, referring to Obama.
What kind of a man is he that makes the whole nation tremble?
That's the message being sent here, that once again, these are people who are quasi-divinities or short-term divinities, and they're able to hurl lightning bolts from Olympus and kill people on a whim.
And they don't have to justify, they don't have to explain, they don't have to reconcile their actions with the law.
And yet Stoughton, of course, is to be considered a world-historic criminal because he committed the gravest form of treason by asserting the primacy of conscience against the lawlessness of the government that had employed him through a fascist cutout.
That's where we are here on the eve of Independence Day 2013.
I'm afraid so, too.
Well, you know, one thing that I really liked about your article, too, and I guess we don't really have time to talk about it so much, is for me to recommend to people that they really go and look at this, because we didn't have time to talk about this.
The first part of the article is about Russia's role in the American Revolution, and how there never would have been one without them.
Like the French, they're our longest-term allies we've ever had, with a little hiccup there in the 20th century for a minute.
Rather substantial hiccup, yeah.
The deadline for the Empress Catherine checkmating the British naval advantage, the United States insurrection, would probably have been crushed very quickly.
Yeah.
All right.
Don't explain.
Everybody go and read Snowden versus the Soyuz at freedominourtime.blogspot.com, freedominourtime.blogspot.com.
That's Pro Libertate, the blog of the great William Norman Grigg.
Thanks very much for your time on the show, Will.
Scott, thank you.
It's always a wonderful opportunity.
Have a wonderful Fourth of July, to the extent that you can.
You, too.
Yeah.
We'll focus on the good for a little while, anyway, at least during the firecrackers, you know?
Exactly.
All right.
Have a good one.
Good talking to you.
Bye-bye.
All right.
The great Will Grigg, freedominourtime.blogspot.com, Snowden versus the Soyuz.
Hey, all.
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Oh man, I'm late.
I sure hope I can make my flight.
Stand there.
Me?
I am standing here.
Come here.
Oh, okay.
Hands up.
Turn around.
Whoa, easy.
Into the scanner.
Ooh, what's this in your pants?
Hey, slow down.
It's just my...
Hold it right there.
Your wallet has tripped the metal detector.
What's this?
The Bill of Rights.
That's right.
It's just a harmless stainless steel business card size copy of the Bill of Rights from securityedition.com.
There, for exposing the TSA as a bunch of liberty-destroying goons who've never protected anyone from anything.
Sir, now give me back my wallet and get out of my way.
Got a plane to catch.
Have a nice day.
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Hey, guys.
I got his laptop.
Hey, y'all.
Scott here.
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