04/23/13 – Jacob Hornberger – The Scott Horton Show

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All right, y'all.
Welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton and our first guest on the show today is the founder and president of FFF.org, the Future Freedom Foundation at FFF.org.
Jacob Warrenberger, welcome back.
How are you doing?
Hey, doing fine.
Great to be back as always, Scott.
All right, good.
Well, I'm very happy to have you here.
And so here's the thing.
I don't know that this is true.
It's an unconfirmed report, by the way, I would characterize it, but it's the cops are telling CNN that the younger of the Boston bombing suspects is, I guess, writing to them that the motive for the Boston bombing, first of all, he's saying is it's not tied to any foreign terrorist group or whatever.
I'll put him up to it, he's claiming.
But he's saying that the motive is to defend Islam.
And they didn't go into too much more detail than that.
But I wondered what you think about that.
Does that indicate to you, then, that Islam is the religion of the devil and it mandates that people that believe in it kill all things that are good, true and innocent and eight years old?
No, actually, it's an interesting thing that you raise, because what appears to be happening is that these guys are actually focusing on what the U.S. government has been doing overseas in the Middle East and, of course, to Muslims.
You've got the war on Iraq, the invasion there, the occupation there, the Afghanistan, the previous sanctions against Iraq, the drone assassinations.
And what these people are perceiving is that since the U.S. government is killing Muslims, that it's their religious duty as Muslims to retaliate.
And, in fact, the Washington Post has just published an article that pretty much confirms this.
And this is what I've been writing in the last few days, that one of the brothers had an argument with a neighbor, and it was over foreign policy.
And he brought up what the U.S. government was doing to kill people over there, and he brings it up in this religious context.
And what the Washington Post is confirming in a report just a few minutes ago, the title of it is, Boston Bombing Suspect Cites U.S. Wars as Motivation, Officials Say.
And it says that, let's see, the 19-year-old suspect in the Boston Marathon bombing has told interrogators that the American wars in Iraq and Afghanistan motivated him and his brother to carry out the attack, according to U.S. officials familiar with the interviews.
So here we are.
I mean, Scott, we're right back to where we were with the 9-11 attacks, with the attacks on the USS Cole, the attacks on the embassies in East Africa.
Well, see, I mean, that's the thing.
They just don't want to confront.
Jacob, when you read a statement like that, it's so easy for me to play conservative jingoist in my own mind here and just devil's advocate and say to you that, like, well, you know what, that's tough, right?
They attacked us on September 11th.
We have to kick their ass back.
And if that motivates some people, you know, to join up their side of the fight against us, well, that's too bad.
They started it.
Well, but that's the problem, is that they didn't start it.
The U.S. government has been intervening in the Middle East, especially since the fall of the Berlin Wall, and they lost their big official enemy to justify the continued military budgets and so forth and the CIA budgets, and they went out provoking hornets' nests in the Middle East.
And that's what came first, the poking of the hornets' nests.
And then when the hornets retaliated, that's what came second.
But this notion that, hey, okay, now they've attacked, so let's go kill them some more, I've pointed out that this is the greatest terrorist-producing machine in history.
I mean they just keep killing people, and so it angers a new bunch of people like these two guys.
And from everything I've read, these two guys are like normal people for like ten years.
They grew up here in the United States.
One becomes an American citizen.
The other tries to become an American citizen.
But it's clear that something has caused them to change, and it's clear now we're seeing that it's these wars and invasions and occupations that cause them to change.
And why would that surprise us?
I mean I don't see why anybody would be surprised.
We see Americans get angry when innocent people are killed.
Why wouldn't foreigners feel the same way?
Right, I mean that's the thing of it.
All the focus on Islam seems to me like, you know, it's sort of part of the story, but it's always out of context, right?
They always make it sound like, oh, see, he became a devout Muslim, and that was when he decided that he wanted to kill innocent people, that kind of thing.
But it's not that.
It's that he identified, after becoming such a devout Muslim, he identified with the other Muslims more.
And people are saying all the reports about the older brother is that, you know, especially lately he's been a real jerk and beat his girlfriend and all this kind of stuff.
But then, you know, he found religion and got all serious and cleaned up his act and quit drinking, and then he went and joined the army, right?
Which makes him just like a million other Americans, except he joined the army on the other side.
That's all.
Ever since 9-11, there's been this segment that has tried to make it look like this is just that we're at war against Islam and that Islam is the problem and so forth.
And, of course, I keep telling these people, you better not go out and start shooting Muslims in your neighborhood based on this so-called war that you say that we're at, because they'll indict you and convict you of murder, and rightfully so.
None of this can be divorced from U.S. foreign policy.
When you've got a policy that just happens to be most of the people you're killing are Muslims, it's going to be natural that people in a Muslim faith are going to get riled up.
Now, not everybody.
I mean, you know, most people can constrain their anger, and so they write articles or write their congressman or give speeches or just vent their feelings and frustrations out with friends and neighbors.
But there's always going to be this segment, and this is what we've talked about, that cannot control themselves, that they go out and do something like this.
And so what Americans have to do, which Americans have not been willing to do, except recently you see now a bigger surge in interest in this, is asking ourselves is all this worth it?
Is it worth this foreign policy of interventionism, of empire?
This has nothing to do with our freedom.
There's not some nation state that's crossing the ocean with millions of troops to invade the United States and take over the government and enslave us.
This is about a fight over whether the U.S. military and the CIA will be permitted to exercise their hegemony in the Middle East or whether they're going to be required to come home.
And that's what these people are dying for.
That's what they're killing for on both sides.
And that's the issue.
Is it worth it to have this military and CIA hegemony?
And we libertarians are saying it ain't worth it.
Bring the troops home.
Close the overseas bases.
You don't see terrorists doing bombing in Switzerland and stuff.
Why?
Because they mind their own business.
That's what we need to start doing, Scott.
Yeah.
Well, you know, it sounds silly in a way, but visuals are really powerful.
And I think that the fact that the 9-11 attack, especially the footage from New York shows the planes coming out of the clear blue sky, literally, and I think that's just such a powerful image where people are really willing to accept, as Harry Brown said, history just began yesterday.
It's a brand-new blank slate.
Tell me a truth, George Bush.
I'm ready and waiting and open for you to explain to me, you know, the facts of life from ground zero on.
And so, you know, if it had just been another truck bombing of the same target, the World Trade Center, people might have said, wow, this thing's been going on, this is another truck bombing of the World Trade Center.
It's part of the same thing that's been happening to us since 1993.
I wonder why, in a little more honest way, right?
But it's that clear blue sky thing, let him get away with saying, well, yeah, they hate us for our freedom.
Never mind that we all know that that same target had been attacked before.
It was just a brand-new century, a brand-new day, and history began again right then.
I can't think of anyone really looking at the context and saying, well, these were our Mujahideen friends in the 80s when we backed them against the Soviets, and then this is our policy toward Iraq from Saudi Arabia, which animated them against us and our policy in Palestine, you know, and that kind of thing.
That conversation never even happened.
I mean, the fact that The Washington Post is running this article that you say they're running here today is just amazing that anyone, right?
Like there was a time when that would be treason to even entertain the possibility, right?
Like Rudy Giuliani told Ron Paul, that's absurd.
I've never even heard anyone say that.
Of all the ridiculous things about 9-11, I've heard that somebody did it as a response to something America did first.
Well, yeah, it's because all too many people have elevated the national security state to the level of a god or a deity and idol.
I mean, you see this especially in churches where ministers all across America, Christian ministers will sit there and talk about how the Jews in the Old Testament had their idols, and they kind of looked down their nose at them and how they would disobey God.
And then the very next breath is let's pray for the troops, and let's pray for the troops without any indication, without any critical analysis of what the troops are doing.
They just won't go down that road.
Maybe the troops are doing something bad, but these ministers won't face that.
Many Americans don't want to face it.
It's this simplistic sense of patriotism, my government, never wrong.
They see it as a football game where America is our team, USA, USA, instead of sitting there with a genuine sense of patriotism and saying, is my government in the wrong here?
And do I need to do something to set it on its right path?
And that's what distinguishes us libertarians from statists, is that we take that position.
Is our government engaged in right or is it engaged in wrong?
And if it's wrong, then we need to take a stand against it and get this nation back on the right track.
And that's what we need to do.
And yeah, it's surprising that The Washington Post reported it.
It's probably their worst nightmare.
But once this guy has given these answers, it's kind of hard to ignore the answers.
Right.
Well, any more?
And I think part of that's really just because of the democratization of the media, if that's the right word for it, where these kind of things get around.
It's sort of it's a lot different era already than just a decade ago, as far as people are able to communicate each other on a peer to peer level rather than just accept the top down sort of spin on things.
Well, and you see it when Ron Paul said that, made the point in the very first presidential debate in 2008.
They came over here to kill us because we're over there killing them.
I mean everybody in the audience filled with republican status, especially up on the stage.
I mean they gasped.
Oh my gosh, how could he question God?
It's heresy, heresy.
And Ron was just making the point.
I mean it doesn't seem to be a difficult point to comprehend.
You go over there and you kill people, and there's going to be people getting mad when you're bombing wedding parties and innocent people and so forth.
And they're going to get mad, and they're going to retaliate.
And so we see it just time and time again.
I mean this is just the latest instance, and I think – but you see this growing surge of libertarianism.
And I've been speaking at college campuses at the Young Americans for Liberty, and you can see the scales are just dropping off kids' eyes.
I mean they're achieving the breakthrough that distinguishes libertarians from statists.
They're seeing that this whole welfare-warfare state is a crock.
And they're joining up with us.
I mean these are exciting times.
They're kind of dark times because the national security state has led us into some dark scenarios here, dark practices, assassination, torture, and so forth.
But the upside is there's a lot more people now that are interested in libertarianism.
And it's a battle.
I mean this is the real battle that we're facing here.
It's a battle against the status in America.
Hey, never let a crisis go to waste, right?
Well, that's right.
That's right.
But we can benefit from it too because a lot of people are now questioning what's going on.
They're not automatically deferring to the national security state, which has been the preference for so many years.
Oh, well, whatever they say, they have information that we don't have access to.
Some people are learning that the CIA with all their dark practices of LSD experiments and other drugs on unsuspecting people and stuff.
I mean this is dark stuff that a free nation should never be involved in.
And now here's the thing too.
I know there's already a million conspiracy theories and little threads all over the place about Boston.
And it's certainly the fact, as I'm sure you're aware of Trevor Aronson's great work at Mother Jones and the new book, The Terror Factory, about the hundreds of bogus terrorism cases.
Hundreds, at least, what, 200, 300 bogus terrorism cases in the United States since September 11th.
And 50 of them, five, zero of them, outright entrapment, sting operations, set up jobs of people who it's very hard to imagine would have done anything criminal at all if their new best friend in the world hadn't tricked them into it, basically.
But on the other hand, and so I think we should keep an open mind toward that, that there could be more FBI involvement.
After all, they knew who this guy was, and according to his father, they called him two days after the bombing to ask him if he did it.
And then later that day, or what, the next day, they put out the pictures to us and said, do you guys know who these guys are?
Can you tell us where they're from?
Right?
So the FBI certainly is already, I think, being at least somewhat dishonest here.
And they actually lied at first and said, no, we've never talked to this guy before.
And then later they had to come out and admit that, yes, that they had.
But on the other hand, I really only say that to say this.
The guy that shot up Fort Hood, that was not a FBI sting operation.
And Zazie, the Afghan living in Denver, Colorado, who tried to, had a plot to blow up, I think, a subway in New York, that one was not a set up.
And Faisal Shahzad, who tried to blow up Times Square, that was not a set up.
And, you know, if American foreign policy in the 1990s, which seemed like peacetime to Americans anyway, was enough to generate the attacks of, you know, World Trade Center in 93 through 9-11-2001, then just imagine what our foreign policy over the last dozen years has engendered against, you know, the enemies we've created and the blowback that we've still got coming.
Well, right.
I mean, in 93 there was already a tremendous amount of anger that had developed with the Persian Gulf intervention, you know, where the U.S. government goes after its former partner and ally, Saddam Hussein, and kills untold numbers of innocent Iraqis there and smashing a third world rated military, killing a bunch of people.
And then destroying Iraq's water and sewage facilities on purpose and then imposing the sanctions, which had killed, you know, which ended up killing hundreds of thousands of innocent children.
And so when Ramzi Youssef is brought – he's the guy that was indicted and convicted of attacking the World Trade Center in 1993, which is really no different in principle from the 2001 attacks.
I mean, you can see the rage in his voice about the sanctions and the children dying in Iraq and stuff.
And we were among those before 9-11 saying, look, stop this.
Stop what you're doing in the Middle East because you're going to see terrorism on American soil.
Chalmers Johnson was another one in his book Blowback that said the same thing.
If you don't change course, you're going to see terrorism on American soil.
And just three or four weeks ago I wrote another article saying that if you keep doing what you're doing, you're going to see another major terrorist attack on American soil, and then two or three weeks later we get the Boston bombing.
But I'm no genius.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that when you go down this road and you treat people in that way, there's going to be a certain segment that's just going to say enough is enough.
And your point is a very good one.
There's a lot of anger in the Muslim community over this.
But most people, like I say, can constrain it.
But there's that layer where you can see that people are angry, and the feds are taking advantage of that.
They're going and finding out the angrier ones, the ones that are not quite ready to tip over into an attack by themselves.
So the fed feeds them all this information and encourages them to engage in this type of thing and then busts them.
But then you've got the guys like these two brothers that just tip over and say enough is enough, we're going to retaliate.
And that's why I keep saying, Scott, we've got to ask ourselves in this country, we've got to do some soul-searching and saying, is this type of life worth it?
It's not normal.
It's not a free society.
It's an aberrant.
It's a weird society.
This is no way to live.
We should be living in freedom and harmony and peace and stability and freedom.
And this is what the welfare warfare state has done to us.
This is where the soul-searching has to take place.
Is this the way of life that we want in our country?
Should we have abandoned the principles of limited government and freedom of our ancestors?
And I think the answer is clear on this one.
Yeah, it's all about the foreign policy.
The New York Times does a poll every year or every couple of years about how do you feel about America?
Do you feel like we're on the right track or the wrong – it's a very general kind of question.
Are we on the right track?
And the last one I saw from a few years back anyway was 91% said we're on the wrong track.
Something ain't right here.
It's like I was talking with Phil Giraldi Friday and for some reason I keep thinking of Back to the Future 2 where the original future is awesome, but then Biff gets a hold of the book and everything is screwed up and we go on a skew to a tangent to this alternate universe which is all dark and corrupt and criminal and at war forever and the reason we don't have our flying cars is because all that money was spent slaughtering Iraqis.
Absolutely.
I mean the economic effects are just mind-boggling.
If we didn't have this giant military industrial complex confiscating so much of our private wealth to fund this operation, it boggles the mind as to how much higher standards of living would be in America, especially for the people at the bottom of the economic ladder.
So you've got the economic consequences of this giant warfare state along with the welfare state, but it's really the moral aspects of this that I think people need to be doing some soul-searching on.
The religious aspect is where is the morality or where is it consistent with religious principles to be invading and occupying countries and sanctioning and embargoing and killing all these innocent people?
I mean every time they fire a drone they say, oh well he's a terrorist, he's a terrorist.
Well they haven't convicted them.
They don't show us any evidence.
They say trust us, just trust us.
And then in the process they kill children that are standing by and they say, well yeah, he was a bystander to the terrorists.
I mean there's just callous indifference to human life and how can that not anger people?
I mean look how angry Americans have gotten over the Boston bombing and rightfully so.
I mean most Americans don't know anybody that got hurt there or died there, but there's still this anger.
Why would that not apply to foreigners?
When they get bombed and they lose their families or their friends or their countrymen or through sanctions and embargoes, why would they not get just as angry?
And this is what Americans can't see is that, well, foreigners aren't supposed to get angry because it's the U.S. government that's doing the killing.
That's ridiculous.
And the thing is, too, we're really lucky how few of these stories that we have really to deal with from the last dozen years.
I mean in America it's pretty much the unanimous consensus of all civil society that no matter what the policy is, it's always still an honorable thing to join the Army and serve your country and get money for college and whatever.
And the commercials play, no one objects.
The militarism is so normalized.
So you could really be a young Army recruit and not really know anything about the foreign policy at all, know that there's wars going on here, there, or the other place, but not really be concerned about why or what or whatever, but just it's all very normalized.
It's not objectionable as far as most people understand when they get involved.
On the other hand, there is no community support for al-Qaeda hardly anywhere in the whole wide world, right?
A couple of towns in Syria right now or something, man, on the outskirts of Fallujah, they support you to go and join up this group of kooks.
But there's not a community in Boston anywhere that approves of this kind of behavior, right?
So it's only people who are on the absolute by themselves kind of a margin or somebody who goes and makes some friends in Chechnya perhaps, something like that, who could be turned to this thing.
But it also goes to show that backing jihadis in Chechnya against the Russians doesn't, or for that matter, backing jihadis in Bosnia against the Serbs doesn't buy us any favor from them.
They don't seem to say, well, I don't mind you killing all these Iraqis and Afghans as long as you're willing to back us in Chechnya.
In fact, bin Laden even cited America's indifference to Russia's killing of Muslims in Chechnya as part of his declaration of war against us.
So even though the CIA was there passing out guns.
Well, there's a consistency in resistance to empire.
I mean, bin Laden joined up with U.S. forces to oust the Soviet Union from Afghanistan.
So there's a consistency when the U.S. becomes the occupier that the resister is going to say, no, we didn't want you either.
And if you look back at this thing, and I think this is part of the soul searching that needs to take place, it's automatically assumed that the military approach to capturing bin Laden, bringing him to justice, was the only approach, the only viable approach.
And in the process, most of the people they've killed and maimed in Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9-11.
Imagine how different it would have been if the situation had been treated like it had with Ramzi Youssef in 1993.
And I tip my hat to the government for how they handled that, that he attacks the World Trade Center.
He gets out of the country.
They don't know where he is, but they finally figure out he's in Pakistan.
Well, they could have gone in and started bombing in Pakistan and killing untold numbers of people.
Instead, they waited him out for like three years.
They waited this guy out.
They finally found him in Pakistan.
They arrest him.
They bring him back.
They prosecute him in federal court, which is where the prosecution belongs.
And you never had this anger and hatred.
If they had done that with bin Laden, if they had said, okay, we're putting out an Interpol alert for him.
He's not going to be able to travel freely anymore, and we're going to be on the lookout for him.
The whole world was on the side of the United States after 9-11, the Muslim world, the Arab world.
Everybody was feeling sympathy with the United States.
They would have found this guy on our behalf.
But instead, we used the military to go in there and just start bombing the entire country and killing untold amount of people with total indifference to how many people were dying.
And that's when the world turned against us.
I mean how different things could have been.
But, of course, that's the national security state.
We don't operate like that.
And we're seeing the results now.
Well, and the FBI agents themselves, they understand this.
Because when they send their informants to go and recruit a stooge for one of their bogus sting operations, they don't ever say, don't you hate freedom?
Don't you hate white girls in miniskirts attending primary elections and stuff like that?
They don't hate that.
Don't you hate R-rated movies?
They say, don't you hate the impunity with which the Americans slaughter people in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Don't you hate the $3 billion plus a year plus all full blank check to spend at Lockheed to the Israelis every year and their occupations of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem?
That's right out of the informant's shtick when he's recruiting in these dozens of different cases.
Never have they said, come on, we have to fight and destroy liberty.
Well, of course, because they're trying to figure out their best little strategy.
And they know that that's what they're angry about.
They're angry about what the government is doing over there.
And that's where we are in this country, Scott.
That's the battle.
It's really a matter between libertarians and status.
And that's what the American people have to choose between.
Do you want this empire?
Is it that important to you?
Is it so important to you that you have to change your entire way of life and see this death and destruction among people like Boston?
That's just not the way to go.
So we just keep fighting for the hearts and souls of the American people to join up with us and stop this madness.
All right.
Now, last question real quick.
Just tell me, what are your thoughts about this lockdown?
It gave us an example of what a police state's like.
I mean, guys, I felt like I was watching the Soviet Union or something.
I mean, it was eerie.
You know, everybody's ordered to stay in their homes, and not only in Watertown, which is bad enough, but all over Boston, shutting down the trains and the planes for, you know, two guys.
And all these military-type police roaming the streets with military vehicles.
And, wow, I thought, man, this is America?
I mean, this is what the national security state has brought us?
Sheesh.
And then for people to be celebrating this as freedom.
I mean, it's bizarre.
I mean, you feel like you're living in, you know, some kind of weird, surreal, bizarro land.
Well, yeah, you know, I mean, James Madison says that the setup is supposed to be that ambition is made to check ambition.
So somewhere there's a pig with a cigar going, uh-uh, this is my jurisdiction.
I'll be damned if you and your SWAT boys are going to be driving around in it, blah, blah, blah.
And then so the different cops hate each other so much that we get to live a little bit free, right?
But that seems to have broken down in this situation.
Oh, man.
From what I understand, they were barging into people's homes without consent, without permission, ordering people to evacuate.
And, man, I thought, wow, here's your police state in action.
And this was for two guys.
Imagine if it was, like, ten guys.
I mean, wow.
Right.
Yeah, Anthony Gregory wrote about, well, what if it's a serial killer?
Or what if it's another, even bigger, worse attack?
Or is that from now on we just shut our cities down, huh?
Yeah, I mean, they didn't do that when they had the D.C. snipers several years ago.
Or Chris Dorner in L.A. a few weeks back.
Yeah.
I mean, they're hunting him down and stuff.
But, boy, we didn't see this lockdown and going into people's homes without warrants and stuff.
I mean, yeah, but, you know, and then you've got the gun control aspect, too.
You know, it's ironic that Massachusetts is a typical pro-gun control state.
And so you had all these people cowering in their homes without the ability to defend themselves against a guy, two guys who clearly didn't believe in gun control and weren't going to obey gun control laws.
How's that for irony?
Hey, that's a Reuters headline today is the two Boston suspects did not have licenses for their firearms.
Yeah, duh.
Really?
Yeah, that shocks the state.
You mean they were violating gun control laws?
Boy, that's amazing.
Well, then where did they get it then?
How could they possibly have had a gun in their bullets?
Exactly.
All right.
Listen, we're over time.
Thank you so much for your time, Jacob.
Great talking to you.
It's always a pleasure and an honor.
Thank you, Scott.
Appreciate it.
All right, everybody, that is the great Jacob Hornberger.
He's the founder and president of the Future Freedom Foundation.
And we'll be right back with Pepe Escobar here in just one sec.
Hey, y'all, Scott here.
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