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All right, our first guest today is Peter Van Buren.
He's a retired 24-year veteran of the US State Department and was in Iraq toward the tail end of that catastrophe.
He blogs regularly at WeMeantWell.com.
That's also the title of his book, We Meant Well, How I Helped Lose the Battle for the Hearts and Minds of the Iraqi People.
And he's got a new one coming out, The People on the Bus, the Story of the 99%.
Here he is at Tom Dispatch with One Day Even the Drones Will Have to Land.
Welcome back to the show, Peter.
How are you doing?
It's a pleasure to be back.
Thank you for having me again.
Very happy to have you here.
And if it's all right with you, I kind of wanted to start with Tom Englehart's introduction to your article, if that's okay.
I'm sure you read it and are at least partially in concurrence with it.
And that's about the accountability for the people who got us into the war, for the people who were wrong, the people who sold us this thing, and especially in the media.
They just, there is no coming to terms with, well, like your article.
We just don't see this kind of thing on the Lair News Hour, or on Brian Williams, or even on Rachel Maddow.
That, like, hey, let's stop and look at what we did here, you know?
There's just no accountability.
I hate to interrupt, but the President has already taken care of that.
He's told us we have to look forward, not backward.
Right.
Exactly.
So that's covered.
Right.
And by took care of that, they mean he failed to convince the Iraqis to let him stay and got kicked out.
Indeed.
Yeah.
Okay, good.
All right, so now, when I was reading your article, I was reminded of another by a great old friend of this show, a guy named Jeff Huber, author of Bathtub Admirals, and great critic of David Petraeus and his bogus surges in Iraq and Afghanistan.
And one of the last articles he wrote before he died was called Osama Bin Laden, Dead and Loving It.
And he says in there that this guy, Bin Laden, who really did die a pathetic death, hiding in the attic, even from his own wives at the end there, little did he even really probably understand.
He is the greatest general in the history of the world.
He destroyed an empire without even moving an army.
He literally moved less than two dozen men.
Well, and I guess now he moved a few hundred men over the course of a decade, but really it took just that one big mission in 2001 to bring the American empire to its knees.
He simply just outsmarted us.
That three-dimensional chess that all the Democrats like to believe Barack Obama is playing every time he does something wrong.
But he really did pull it off with the September 11th attack.
And as Michael Shoyer put it, bogging us down in Afghanistan was his real goal, to replicate the Russian invasion of the 1980s.
And the invasion of Iraq was simply the unexpected, the hoped for but unexpected gift.
That was the cherry on top.
That was the, he couldn't believe his good fortune that the Americans put people so stupid and so criminal in charge that that is how they would react to the attack on 9-11.
What do you think?
I don't think even Bin Laden could have anticipated the depth of stupidity that we unveiled here.
To say that Bin Laden defeated us is partially true, but in fact, we defeated ourselves.
The events of 9-11 were terrible.
It's horrible.
No one wants to be pleased that 3,000 Americans died.
But what happened after that is in fact what killed the empire.
We ate ourselves.
There was absolutely no reason to invade Iraq, and here on the 10th anniversary, despite our president's admonitions that we look forward, not backward, I think the old standard that looking back at history helps us learn from it still does apply, with apologies to our dear leader.
We invaded Iraq for no apparently good reason.
The reasons that even the neocons claimed, even if you take it for the most extreme, that we went there for the oil, we went there for the strategic bases in the Middle East, or we went there to tip over dominoes so that the American empire would win, none of that even came close to being realistic.
In fact, what we did in Iraq was upset the balance of power in the Middle East that had served the American empire fairly well, and along the way bankrupted our society both financially and morally, and in fact created a lasting legacy in the Middle East that the United States will probably never be able to live down.
Jihadists all over the world still carry cell phone photos around of the tortures in Abu Ghraib, and every day that Guantanamo, which is on a direct line through the invasion of Iraq and forward, every day that Guantanamo stays open we create new enemies for the United States, and of course the drone policy, the drones, which were an experimental technology in Afghanistan and Iraq, now are America's ambassadors overseas, if you will, flying over countries and smiting good guys, bad guys, and anyone the president doesn't like the look of on any given day.
We made the biggest single mistake in American foreign policy history invading Iraq in 2003, and the results of it are apparent on a daily basis and will haunt us through our lifetime, certainly, and probably long, long past that into the future.
Tom's point about accountability remains extremely important.
Keep in mind that, as far as I can tell, the only person who lost his or her job at the State Department over the debacle of the Iraq Reconstruction was me, and that's because I complained about it.
The only American who's gone to jail over our decade of torture and secret prisons is my friend John Kiriakou, who blew the whistle on it.
We have no accountability.
If you look back on my own little mini-saga of the Iraq War, my boss, who watched over the waste and spending, retired from the State Department and was rehired as a government contractor at twice his salary.
His boss, the deputy chief of mission in Baghdad, Robert Ford, left to become our ambassador to Syria, and we see his deft hand at work every day and how that's working out.
His boss, Chris Hill, the ambassador to Iraq, is now dean of the Korbel School of Diplomacy out in Denver, Colorado.
His boss, Hillary Clinton, who presided over two years of Iraq Reconstruction and four years of Afghan Reconstruction waste, expects to be president in a couple of years.
And her boss, Barack Obama, sailed through and was re-elected, and now has appointed himself Zeus, killing people with drones pretty much wherever he wishes to do so.
So if you take a look at accountability, not only have the people who perpetrated this mess not been brought to any form of accountability, all of them have gone on to increasing success and better jobs.
Meanwhile, I lost my job at the Department of State and almost went to jail over it, and I guess that kind of tells you the story.
Right.
All right, now, so there's a few different things here.
First of all, it was amazing 10 years ago the amount and the level of groupthink, how badly everyone wanted to go along with it.
And I'm not really trying to toot my own horn as much as, like, really play it down the other way.
I was just, I emphasize in italics, just a cab driver, conspiracy theorist, government hater type.
And yet all of my reasons for opposing the war were awesome, right?
This is going to empower Iran because any idiot can tell you the majority of Iraqis are Shiites in the south, dominated by the Sunni minority.
I knew that in the 1990s, you know, just from the drone coverage.
And hell, I think even Tom Clancy wrote a book about that.
It's going to make us look right.
Like bin Laden is telling the whole Middle East that we're the enemies of Islam.
And anywhere that there are Muslims will find an excuse to kill them or at least look the other way when the Indians kill them or whatever it is.
And all we're going to do is make that look more correct and radicalize, you know, finish radicalizing the Middle East.
I was it was easy for me to cherry pick little things like, look, Hosni Mubarak just said our loyal sock puppet dictator in Egypt just said we're going to create 10,000 bin Ladens.
Hey, look, here's a story in Knight Ridder about their guys at the Pentagon who are at war with the CIA because they're not lying well enough.
And here's a story about how the aluminum tubes were for rockets.
And the CIA has known that since the first day they ever seized them and on and on and on all the lies that they used to get us into it.
And what a stupid idea was.
I mean, Colleen Rowley, the FBI whistleblower from Minnesota, she in her letter to the Senate, it wasn't just, hey, we could have stopped the attack if we were doing our job.
It was don't attack Iraq.
This is going to be terrible.
Assuming that Al Qaeda is the problem that you're actually trying to deal with here, et cetera.
It really was that easy to see through what the neocons in the White House were pushing and TV news were pushing on everybody.
If you were trying at all.
I mean, you really I like to tell the story.
I was painting a house, listening to Colin Powell's U.N. speech and debunking every bit of it to my friend.
I was painting the house with just listening to it on the radio.
And I was you know, I didn't have access to anything other than antiwar dot com headlines.
And I still knew that much better.
You know, so it's their fault.
I mean, these people are very responsible.
Wasn't just a predetermined murder plot.
It was a really stupid premeditated, let's say it was a really stupid one.
And and they really deserve some severe accountability, not just, you know, somebody should point their finger at them once.
I mean, there should be people in prison for this thing.
Should be people committing suicide over this thing.
You would think.
But unfortunately, in our society today, these things just just pass by.
We seem to have Americans seem to have increasingly failing memories, even as I was writing these articles celebrating, if you will, the 10th anniversary of the Iraq invasion.
Many people are kind of like, oh, Iraq, you know, did that happen in now?
When I speak to groups about this many times, the folks look at me as if I'm talking about Gettysburg or or Shiloh.
When I talk about Iraq, it seems to them very much like a thing that happened in history and well, yeah, like the Civil War, it's kind of interesting to study this in our history classes and all.
But in fact, it really doesn't have much to do with with reality.
And that is very, very frightening to me, because that says that not only are we likely to do it again, we almost are assuring ourselves that we will repeat the same mistakes because we clearly have not learned anything from history.
Just take a look at what's going on in Afghanistan today.
If I wanted to save a little time and money, I could take my book, We Met Well, about the Iraq war, simply do a search and replace every place it says Iraq changes to Afghanistan.
I could probably republish it and 90 percent of it would still hold up.
We haven't learned from our mistakes.
We continue to repeat them and we will continue to pay that price.
Yeah.
Well, you know, it's amazing what you say.
I think you're absolutely right.
It's like the Iraq war might as well have happened back before the Korean War, between World War Two and Korea or something, whenever all the pictures were in black and white and most of those people would have been dead by now.
And you say Shiloh or whatever, but something way back in history where it really doesn't matter.
Meanwhile, the last American troops actually left there a year ago, a year and a couple of months.
That's it.
That's how ancient it is.
That war.
It's a year ago.
It's not something of ancient history.
We are talking about the 10th anniversary of the beginning of the invasion of Iraq.
Anniversaries are convenient times to do this, but I think you make an excellent point in reminding people that it was only about a year ago that the last American soldier left Iraq.
This thing has fallen apart faster than a cardboard box in the rain.
Look what's happened in the years since we left Iraq a year ago.
In fact, this is something I reflect on in the articles that you're talking about from Tom Dispatch and elsewhere.
You know, when my book first came out, many times when I did interviews with places that were not as well-informed as antiwar.com, people would sort of question, well, you know, we haven't really seen how this is going to play out in Iraq.
Maybe it's going to work out.
You know, you never really know until these things are over.
There was a fair amount of skepticism about what I had written, claiming that Iraq was going to crumble.
And even fairly together reporters working for NPR and stuff would always kind of throw in a little warning that, hey, you know, we're pretty sure Peter's right, but you never know.
You never know with these things.
Now, just a year later, it is common consensus that Iraq was a disaster.
And from any perspective that you'd like to look at it, take it from the most extreme neocon point of view.
Pretend that you're channeling Dick Cheney.
Did we get any oil out of it for all the blood?
No, no, we didn't.
Oil output from Iraq is roughly the same as it was ten years ago.
Did we get any bases in the Middle East?
Did we conquer any territory?
And of course, the answer to that is no.
When you zoom out to take a little broader view of things, we in fact tipped over the apple cart in the Middle East.
The great winner of the Iraq-U.S.
-Iraq war, of course, was Iran.
Iran in 2003 had the American army on its eastern border in Afghanistan, and it was very worried about what was going to happen when the American army parked itself on its western border during the invasion of Iraq.
And the Iranians were ready to deal.
They were ready to make some kind of diplomatic rapprochement.
And had we not blown that opportunity, had we not squandered it, all the saber-rattling that's going on in the Middle East over Iran and its nuclear capabilities would have been unnecessary.
We could have solved that problem ten years ago, but we didn't, and we actually made it worse.
In addition, we set off the Sunni-Shia struggle that you were referring to, which now has spilled itself over into Syria, and we're not sure where that's going to end or how that's going to end or where the Sunni-Shia struggle is going to end.
And at the same time, it continues to bubble just below the surface in Iraq.
Killings are up, murders are up, suicide bombings on the rise again in Iraq.
It still remains a horribly dangerous and divided place.
And exactly where that is going to end and how stable Iraq will be over the near term is very much open for discussion.
I hate to be this mean and cynical and whatever, but I think Michael Shoyer is the only person who I've ever heard go ahead and say this in public with a straight face.
Saddam could have been a great ally against Osama bin Laden.
And if George W. Bush had just sent whoever over there to say, listen, pal, we're going back to the 1980s style where you do as you're told, or else, he would have said, sure, fine.
And in fact, as we know, because it was leaked out, what, a year and a half after the war, that Richard Perle actually did meet with one of Saddam's agents in Britain, where Saddam offered everything to allow the army, the FBI, and the CIA to run around searching for weapons of mass destruction wherever they wanted to hold elections, to give up his oil, to make friends with Israel, to do whatever was required of him, and to fight al-Qaeda.
And what did they do?
You know, this guy who had a death warrant for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi because he was a secular fascist dictator with no beard?
They killed him.
And they turned, what, a third of the country, you know, we all like to joke about how they turned all the land over for, well, not joke, funny, haha, but joke that, hey, the irony, they turned over all the land from Baghdad to Basra over to the Iranians' friends and the Dawah Party and the Supreme Islamic Council.
Well, the whole Sunni triangle now belongs to al-Qaeda.
I mean, damn.
Right here, I got Roy Gutman and McClatchy talking about Nouri al-Maliki is asking the Americans for help fighting against al-Qaeda in Iraq and Syria, which is coming across the border, America's allies in Syria attacking our friends in Iraq.
It's pretty hard to keep track of who's on whose side anymore out there, but it's pretty obvious that almost nobody is on America's side.
We have lost such amazing standing in the Middle East in every dimension.
And as the idea of Saddam being an ally of the United States, of course, it's not too late to remember that during the 1980s, he was an ally of the United States.
Prior to the first Gulf War, the United States directly supported Saddam Hussein in his wars against the Iranians, and supplied him with intelligence and money and all sorts of help in hopes that he would be a bulkherd against Iranian expansion, and in fact, it was a fairly successful strategy.
There's the famous picture of Donald Rumsfeld, a young Donald Rumsfeld with his 70s dude shaking hands with Saddam and welcoming him to the fold.
The United States' reputation is trashed in the Middle East from every possible point of view.
We have no friends left.
We simply have a few people that are playing us, the Saudis are a good example, to help us keep pushing money into the wrong hands in Syria.
We keep stumbling over our own feet in disasters like Libya.
We haven't really figured out that regime change carries two sides to it.
First, you've got to knock over the old regime, but you have to replace it with something.
We never really get that second part right, and I'm terribly, terribly afraid that it will continue to haunt us for many, many years.
Back in 2003, exactly 10 years ago, the deal was, and we talked about this on my show back then, was that we've just got to get it done.
We've got to cross that border from Kuwait into Baghdad, we'll worry about what happens later, later.
But right now, we're just working on our bluff, and we've got to go ahead, we've got to lie enough and fast enough, while we build up our forces in Kuwait, that we can get the thing launched before it all deflates.
And that was it.
And as far as, you know, what are we going to do with the country afterwards, we'll worry about that then.
And I know the CIA and the State Department had their plans, and the neocons had theirs, and they conflicted and argued about it and whatever, but it didn't seem like anybody was really thinking about, you know, what are we going to do with Muqtada al-Sadr?
What are we going to do with, you know, the most powerful ex-Ba'athist generals, et cetera, et cetera?
Absolutely.
And this is why it failed there, and it's why it's failing in Afghanistan.
We have no strategy whatsoever about how to continue this on.
In Afghanistan right now, we continue to support the Karzai government, which in all sorts of UN and other rankings remains one of the most corrupt governments in the world, if not in top place.
I think they pay them off, they're so corrupt they pay them off, so they're not in the top place.
We continue to pour billions and billions of dollars into that government in hopes that maybe something will happen.
It seems like a very odd strategy.
We have learned, and it's important to stop, particularly in these sequester-driven times, it's important to stop and talk not only about accountability in terms of war crimes and in terms of damage to the United States, but also in terms of finances, because for better or worse, money is still a very important thing, and particularly in the United States where our infrastructure is crumbling, our schools need financing.
We squandered staggering amounts of money.
The most recent report by the Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction, Sigur, the one that came out just this week, ups the total amount of money that was spent in Iraq on reconstruction to the point where it totals out to $15 million a day, every day, for 10 years.
That's an unbelievable figure.
Pick the cause of choice, whether that would be schools or firefighters or infrastructure repair.
Pick what you think is important for the United States and decide what $15 million a day could have done for us here in America.
That's the answer to the perennial question.
How come we don't all have flying cars, man?
We're way past the year 2000 now, and that's the answer.
They blew it all, killing people in Iraq, and building things that nobody wants.
We poured it, it was just like water poured into the desert sands over there.
It goes away before you even see it hit the ground.
We squandered that money, and while we look back and say, wow, $15 million a day, what were we thinking?
Well, blink your eyes, because we're doing exactly the same thing in Afghanistan.
We're spending more money there.
The totals in Afghanistan are probably about 20 or 30 percent higher than Iraq and counting.
We continue to do that.
Wow, are you serious?
Wait, wait, wait.
You're talking about just the reconstruction money in Afghanistan?
Is that much more than Iraq?
Yes.
I did not realize that.
Wow.
I guess I just assumed it was always a fraction compared to the Iraq thing.
No, no, no.
First of all, it's been going on for two years longer, of course, in Afghanistan.
And second, the projects in Afghanistan were envisioned, initially at least, in the war as big-scale things, the most famous of which the United States is in the process of currently abandoning.
The United States was building a hydroelectric facility in Afghanistan that was supposed to supply electricity to a large portion of the country.
We've been working on it on and off for the past 12 years and have spent several billion dollars alone on that dam and the hydroelectric facility.
And it was only last week that the USAID announced that we're, quote, turning it over to the Afghans to complete, unquote.
Yeah.
Turning it over to the Afghans, of course, anyone who hears that, that's code for we're walking away from it.
The Afghans are certainly in no position to complete a hydroelectric project that the United States couldn't get done in 12 years, never mind even keep it from regressing.
And so we're walking away from that.
And Afghanistan featured these huge projects at massive, massive expenditures of money, particularly early on in the war.
And so we're still spending the money.
In fact, we're still spending money in Iraq on reconstruction.
There are a couple of signature projects that the United States had forward funded.
I love the government.
I love the way they describe these things.
Forward funded, meaning that we had the money spent in advance, if you will.
And we're still paying for things in Iraq.
We're still working on the Fallujah sewer system and there's still a prison that we're paying for and some other more modest projects.
We're actually still spending reconstruction money in Iraq, even though, as you pointed out earlier, the troops have been out for a year.
The war started and ended a long time ago.
And most Americans don't even realize Iraq is still a place, I guess, in their minds that go like when TV shows go off the air, they just kind of go away like TV shows go off the air.
That's the perfect way to say it is that is how it is.
I can't get over it either.
It makes me want to do an Iraq interview, you know, every day on this show, no matter what.
And just I want to refuse to allow them all to forget.
But they insist.
I mean, it really I mean, you know, the way I learned about the way I learned about the Korean War was from MASH.
But I figure if it hadn't been for MASH, it wouldn't even be known to me as the Forgotten War.
It wouldn't even be known at all.
Right.
To anyone.
We'd never talk about Korea at all.
The reason it's not the name Forgotten War is because no one said a word about it until Trapper John.
And this is important to understand, because there seems to be this this lag where you're not allowed to talk substantively about these things until they're old enough that it somehow becomes cool.
Nick Turse has written, for example, a critically important book on the Vietnam War called Should Ever Kill Everything That Moves.
He'll be on Monday.
And he's excellent.
Excellent.
He's a terrific writer.
And it's a it's a fascinating book about American war crimes and torture in the Vietnam War.
But it's almost unbelievable that it has taken all this time for such a book to come out.
And it leaves me terrified 20 years from now, 30 years from now of what we're going to learn about what's happened in Iraq and what's happened in Afghanistan, because history does seem to have this lag attached to it.
It takes that long, I think, for some of this documentation to be released.
It takes that long, I think, for some of the people who participated in these horrific activities to finally come to conscience and be willing to talk about them.
And that, Scott, remains one of the saddest legacies of the Iraq War is how few people who participated in it are willing to talk about what they did.
The horrific, stupid waste, fraud and mismanagement that I wrote about in my book, we meant well.
I was not working undercover.
I didn't uncover any cache of secret documents or anything along those lines that allowed me any particular insight.
What I saw and experienced was seen and experienced by thousands and thousands of U.S. government employees, contractors and soldiers, any one of whom could have written about it or talked about it or approached the media with with more information about it.
I just happened to be the one whose conscience finally overwhelmed his need for a paycheck and brought me forward to talk about these things.
But the thing is, thousands and thousands of people saw those same things.
And with Nick, the atrocities that he chronicles in his book were seen by so many soldiers and so many journalists and civilians who all kept quiet until now.
And that, I think, is one of the sadder legacies among so many sad legacies, is why aren't more people willing to talk about what they experienced there, to speak out, to even just simply document what happened there and let others draw conclusions the way that someone like Bradley Manning helped get information out without he himself saying, here's what's right and what's wrong.
Here is the basic facts.
You decide.
Right.
Well, to paraphrase Ron Paul in different circumstances, we ignore these truths at our own peril.
You know, the people of the Middle East, they're not going to forget the Iraq war anytime soon or even ever.
And maybe this is kind of a big, bigoted, ignorant sort of thing for a Texan to say, but it seems to me like the Vietnamese have been trying to forget it this whole time, whereas the Arabs, they're not interested in forgetting stuff.
Just culturally speaking, you know what I mean?
They like remembering things, whether they're going to all declare jihad against us or whatever.
I don't believe that.
But they're not going to forget what happened here.
Indeed.
All right.
I'm sorry.
We're way out of time.
But this is great writing, as all your writing is.
And I really appreciate your time on the show, Peter.
It's my pleasure.
And I look forward to speaking with you again, Scott.
All right, everybody.
That is Peter Van Buren.
He used to work for the State Department and he wrote this great book.
We meant well.
It's also the name of his blog.
It's at we meant well dot com and highly urge you to check out both.
And then, of course, this piece is at Tom Dispatch and you can also find it under Tom Englehart's name, of course, at antiwar dot com.
One day, even the drones will have to land.
Hey, I'll Scott here.
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