01/15/13 – Andy Worthington – The Scott Horton Show

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All right, y'all, welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton.
Our next guest today is Andy Worthington.
He did a movie called Outside the Law.
Of course, he's also the author of the Guantanamo Files, which is the profiles of everybody who was ever held at Guantanamo, I think.
Of course, he is something or other kind of fellow at the Future Freedom Foundation.
He certainly writes there, fff.org.
You can find a lot of really great work there, as well as his own website, of course, andyworthington.co.uk.
Welcome back to the show, Andy.
How are you, man?
Yeah, I'm good, Scott.
I've been here in New York City.
I've been here in the country for a week, working hard, trying to tell people about the importance of closing Guantanamo on the 11th anniversary of the opening of the prison, and alerting them to the ongoing crimes committed against people in the name of the unending long war on terror by President Obama.
Well, thank you.
Good for you.
I'm not just content to be the world's greatest journalist on the Guantanamo issue, but still, after all these years, you're pushing it.
You're getting on planes, coming over here, standing out in the cold, giving speeches.
I got the video here.
You're trying your very best to do the right thing here.
Hey, I sure appreciate it.
These things don't get done if people don't do them, so good on you.
Well, thanks, Scott.
It's a strange thing to be having these annual reunions every year with these great people that I work with and that I know over here who become more like family every year, but obviously we can't back down on this.
It's the start of Obama's second term, so now at least he hasn't got any excuse to tell everyone to shut up because of an election, and also he's got a legacy that he needs to start thinking about.
He may not care, but it seems to me that they always want to be known as the good guys who did the good things, and this stands out that he promised to close Guantanamo and very clearly failed to do so.
So we're hoping to push him on that.
Yeah.
Well, I sure hope people go and look at this piece at the Future Freedom Foundation.
Again, it's fff.org.
11 years of Guantanamo.
End this scandal now.
I posted your speech, one of your recent speeches, anyway, on my Facebook page, and I noticed it wasn't getting as many likes and comments as the rest of the things, and it really is the kind of thing where it's just going on for so long, and people have heard the Guantanamo arguments this way and that and whatever so often they already know which side they're on, and it's almost kind of become like a boring old issue, you know what I mean?
Even though it's still current.
It's just, as you call it in your title, end this scandal now.
It's a scandal right now.
This thing is still going on.
And unfortunately, you know, it seems to me like the outrage is dissipating rather than just building up, and, you know, the people who oppose Obama and have any power, they like Guantanamo even more than he does, and the people who like Obama and give him power, they don't care who he kills or imprisons or what.
And so, man, it's a really hard thing.
I don't know.
It might take a Republican president and then the re-radicalization of the political left to create any kind of pressure to ever close Guantanamo Bay, you know?
Yeah, well, possibly, Scott.
I mean, the only thing that gives me, you know, hope in some ways is that it's, you know, the first term has gone on by a combination of accident and design.
It's become, you know, the prison where indefinite detention is officially in use.
And, you know, there's only a specific proportion of the 166 prisoners who are still held who have been actually designated for indefinite detention, very probably for the rest of their lives without charge or trial by the Obama administration.
And there were 48 of these guys, and two of them died.
There are now 46 of them.
This was, you know, when President Obama issued this executive order about two years ago, it was very specifically for this group of individuals.
And, you know, in the whole of the war on terror, this is the—at Guantanamo, these people are the specific group where he's done that.
But, of course, you know, what's happened is that since then it's turned out that, you know, through his inaction and through congressional obstruction and through the courts, it's impossible for anyone else to leave Guantanamo.
So they're all indefinitely detained.
But the only people that he specifically wanted to indefinitely detain are this group of 46.
And that is, you know, the ripples from that have spread out to all kinds of other aspects of the government.
So that the whole problem with the NDAA where people are very legitimately worried about, you know, about the ability of the government to indefinitely imprison people in military custody on the basis that they're somehow connected to what's regarded as terrorism, the only reason that that was enabled in the first place was because of the detention of this small group of prisoners within the Guantanamo population who are officially designated for it.
Exactly that.
Indefinite military detention without charge or trial.
So, you know, I think that if people are to come to understand that all these things are connected, they will realize that the key to trying to remove the threat against American citizens or against anywhere, anybody, anywhere in the world on these very vague bases of endlessly changing terrorist definitions.
But I think for Americans, the real worry is, you know, being Americans and being imprisoned without charge or trial.
Everything needs to refer back to Guantanamo to get that place closed because if that goes, the existing justification for it goes as well.
And that would be very helpful for all of us to try and eliminate any actual practice of indefinite detention without charge or trial by the U.S. government.
Yeah.
Well, you know, that's one of the things about this.
Not just the prison without charge or trial part, but the different standards and the different categories of people being held at Guantanamo and under what theories they're being held.
I mean, it sounds like the people in that category that you just mentioned, those are the people who they couldn't even convince a military kangaroo court to continue to hold them, and so they don't even want to try to make that case.
They're just saying, but they're too dangerous to release, trust us.
Maybe we tortured them so bad that they're sure to become a terrorist if we let them go now.
Yeah.
Or, you know, most troubling, what they regard as evidence that they can't use is because it's too vague or because they know that it was extracted under extremely dubious circumstances from people.
And they've decided to trust that, whereas if people knew what the basis of this was and were able to examine it independently and objectively, they would conclude that actually these are unreliable statements.
This is an unreliable basis for holding people because the people who made these statements that they're using were very probably lying.
So, you know, but you're right about the different types of people that are at Guantanamo, Scott.
And, you know, one of the things that I've noticed this week in talking to people, and this is quite often people who already know something about the issues and broadly support the notion that Guantanamo needs to be closed, is the number of prisoners held there who have been cleared for relief by the task force, the interagency task force that President Obama established.
And, you know, the principle which, you know, I hopefully stated very clearly in that video you mentioned of me talking outside the White House, that this is worse than what dictators do when they throw people in jail and throw away the key because they don't pretend that there's a review process whereby, actually, we looked at your case and we don't want to hold you anymore.
Oh, hang on a minute, we're not going to release you.
That's just an added dimension of cruelty that I think, you know, really, I hope we can really work on this here because I've seen people noticeably shocked by the realization that that's what happened.
That if the government hadn't gone to a review process, then they could probably still be getting away with claiming, you know, you must trust us, these are all bad guys.
But they didn't.
They said, actually, we don't want to hold these guys anymore.
But they, you know, because it's inconvenient politically, they're still holding them.
And that's, you know, that's just wrong.
You know, and ordinary people who are not particularly engaged in the political process are very capable of understanding that that's just wrong.
So, you know, that's also been, I suppose, another aspect where I've seen some hope in the work that we have to do before the end of President Obama's second term while trying to persuade him that he doesn't want that.
That sentence written in bold in his political epitaph that says, you know, this guy actually, he really couldn't be bothered because he made promises that he couldn't keep because they were politically troublesome.
Yeah.
Well, and, you know, that's the thing, too, is he gets away always.
And I hear this all the time, even from people who don't even mean to defend the president.
But they just believe it's true.
They've heard it so much that, well, the poor guy, the Republicans, just won't let him do it.
But, of course, he could veto the appropriations for the military until they do it his way.
And, in fact, here's a guy who can start a war in Libya on his whim, who just now, you know, has helped the French with their invasion of Mali without asking Congress, without even consulting him, without even calling him in the middle of the night to say it's about to begin.
But somehow he's constitutionally powerless to order the troops to move down at Guantanamo Bay.
I said close the prison and ship them here.
How's the Congress going to stop him from doing that?
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
So, but, and, in fact, Glenn Greenwald had a piece a few years back now highlighting some Washington Post work, I think it was, where the senators, some very powerful senators, were complaining that they took the president at his word that he meant to do this.
And they started, you know, spending their political capital in the Senate to try to make this thing happen.
And it took them too long to realize that the president's not helping here.
And he's not going to help.
And he doesn't mean to put any pressure on the Congress to do this at all.
And he never really meant it at all.
And here I am sticking my neck out, and the Republicans are telling my home constituents that I'm soft on the terrorists, and the president doesn't even want me doing this.
Thanks for not even telling me to not bother, jerk.
You know, they were mad about it.
In other words, he could have gotten it done if he wanted at all.
I don't know, and it's interesting, Scott, as to how much this is by accident or design, because, you know, I actually think more of the accident than design, but that's because increasingly as I look at President Obama, I see a lazy president, a man who's not, you know, he can't be bothered to try and do anything that might be difficult.
You know, and that may not be the correct answer.
The correct answer might be that, you know, that there's much more manipulation of people going on and saying something that sounds good and then not doing it.
But, you know, it was a stupid promise to make if he had no intention of following through on it.
And they hadn't thought it out, and he, particularly he, hasn't been prepared over and over again to argue his corner and say, look, you know, I issued this executive order promising to close Guantanamo, and when I did that, I did that because it was the right thing to do.
In fact, we could go back and, you know, and repeat his words back to him when he signed that.
But he has never, ever followed up on it in any, with any muscle whatsoever.
And, you know, so that's why now the time is to say, well, you know, it's four years and that's already, you know, shoddy.
You're going to do the full eight years and leave us with nothing at the end of it?
We have to take him, we have to focus on the things, the few things that he has said and done that he didn't fulfill.
And that is that he promised to close it and he needs to do that.
Otherwise we will see him as a, you know, as just a failure at best and a liar at worst.
And, you know, he set up a task force of very sober, serious career officials and lawyers throughout the government to look at the prisoners' cases.
And they said, hey, these guys, we don't want to carry on holding them.
And they're all still there.
And he needs to resolve that.
And there really are no, no excuses that he can endlessly make about how Congress has stopped him without, you know, without us all ending up thinking.
So really the president of the United States really is a kind of job without very much power, it appears, if we're to believe you on certain issues.
Whereas, as you say, Scott, you know, when he feels like starting wars illegally, he doesn't seem to have a problem with that.
Right, yeah, it's like Chief Wiggum on The Simpsons.
I said we're powerless to help you, not to harm you.
Right.
That's totally different.
Well, and now here's the thing, too.
Never mind fuddy-duddy old sticklers for the Fifth Amendment like you and me.
What about from the point of view of the national security state itself, Guantanamo is a horrible threat to national security.
You know, it came out during that Broadwell thing, and I think we already knew this anyway, but it was brought back up again during the Petraeus scandal, that Petraeus and I think McChrystal had personally intervened with that pastor Terry Jones in Florida to try to convince him to not burn a Quran.
You know what?
We're in the middle of a war over there in Afghanistan.
These are the highest level generals.
And they're saying you are going to screw this up for us and create all these problems for us over there and motivate people to want to shoot at us and threaten our security by doing this, so please don't.
Well, okay, that makes perfect sense that you would want to stop doing things that might as well be deliberate for provoking new enemies like burning a Quran.
It's the very same thing with Guantanamo Bay, the hood, and the orange jumpsuit, man, and it has been this whole time.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And the fact is that when they make those half-hearted statements about, no, no, no, we still want to close it, and we still believe that it's damaging to our national security, well, you know, then show a little bit more conviction in this, because this is a message that you can sell, but as with everything, you have to actually make some effort, and that's why, you know, that's why more than anything, you know, my impression of President Obama as his inauguration approaches is, oh, well, congratulations, seriously, second term for, you know, God help us, the laziest president of the United States that I can remember.
And that's quite something, because remember, George W. Bush came to office, and, you know, pretty much we all knew this wasn't the man for whom hard work was something with which he was identified.
Barack Obama, I don't see him putting in the hard work at all.
Yeah, well, you know, it's funny how much of the conversation still, and not just you and me, but, you know, all through American politics, and, you know, particularly on the left and left issues like this, how much of the conversation is still just kind of, you know, reemphasizing the point of that, wow, it turns out Barack Obama doesn't really love us all after all, you know, as though any of us ever really believe that.
Remember in 2007 and 2008 during the campaign how there was Mike Gravel and Dennis Kucinich who were the two decent, kind, honest men up there, and then there was Hillary, Obama, and Edwards, the three Hillary Clintons.
There was no mistaking it that there were two decent human beings and three devils up on that stage, and then somehow people confused Obama with Dennis Kucinich.
He was never nothing but Hillary Clinton.
He's evil, okay?
Big deal.
Get over it.
The guy's a president.
They wouldn't have ever let him get anywhere near that chair if he wasn't willing to cut a child's throat himself.
Come on.
Well, the thing is, you know, on national security issues, you know, on war and militarism and national security, President Obama, you know, was talking personally to lawyers about Guantanamo, and, you know, there was a reason to believe that he meant that.
I mean, that wasn't on militarism.
You know, he absolutely made it clear that he was going to escalate things in Afghanistan and Pakistan, even though he was going to draw things down in Iraq, and a lot of people missed that because they were too, you know, they were too hypnotized by him.
But, you know, he did make promises.
He went further than just soundbites on the issue of Guantanamo and then completely backed down.
So, you know, most of the four years I've spent describing him as cowardly when he went on issues that he needs to, you know, find courage about, and I'm just adding laziness to that mess, you know.
But the underlying issues of, you know, the inherent corruption of these people who get the powerful jobs remains there, of course, Scott, but, you know, he was already Wall Street's man at the beginning.
He didn't appear to be as much a man of the military-industrial complex as obviously the Bush administration with Cheney was, but it turns out that he got into bed with them as well, and maybe he did that after a few ripples of trouble at the beginning when he looked like he, you know, he might be causing trouble.
So, yeah, he's, you know, in many ways we've ended up with no difference, really.
You know, these people serve Wall Street and they serve the military-industrial complex, and a few of the people in the picture move in and out, but it stays essentially the same.
Well, you know, one thing Anthony Gregory likes to point out, the irony, that if these people were to be brought to the United States and get fair trials, there'd be a 100% conviction rate.
They don't stand a chance in a federal court in the United States, which is the most rigged game in the history of the world.
They actually are all, if they could get a kangaroo military trial down there at Guantanamo, they'd have a lot better chance of going home.
Well, you know, the problem is that, you know, the ability to prosecute people at Guantanamo in their kangaroo courts has been eroded by, of all things, a very right-wing judge in the Court of Appeals who quashed the conviction of Salim Hamdan recently.
He was convicted for material support, and everybody always told the Senate that they had invented these crimes and they wouldn't stand up to scrutiny, but under President Obama, Congress actually, you know, kept material support in the list of crimes that were used in the military commissions, and that's kind of effectively collapsed.
So, you know, Mr. Gregory is absolutely right about federal courts and their horrendous record on dealing justly and fairly with Muslims accused of anything involving terrorism.
But the fact is that the majority of people in Guantanamo can't be accused or tried of anything.
You know, 86 of the 166 have been cleared for release.
46 others have these extremely dubious claims against them which the government doesn't even want to try and back up publicly.
So, you know, we're down to a few dozen people, and whether they're, you know, tried at Guantanamo or eventually tried in federal court is a question that, for me, although it should be dealt with urgently, it's not as urgent as let's get everybody else out because these are people who the government either wants to release or cannot justify holding, and that's nearly all of the people that are held.
So let's sort that out, please.
Let's do it as quickly as possible.
There is no reason for this not to be resolved immediately.
Now, you know, what's interesting about that, too, is, well, I wonder, how many of these guys, according to your best knowledge, because I know you've really profiled all of them, how many people held at Guantanamo before 2005 were actual al-Qaeda guys?
Because I know that that guy, Khatami, they took him there.
But it was in 2005, wasn't it, when they brought Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Ramzi bin al-Shib and all the guys who had been tortured at the former Soviet torture prison in Poland that the CIA was operating, that my wife broke the story on, and the other black sites.
Before that, was it all just kidnapped and ransomed goat herders, or were there a few of Zawahiri's friends there before the CIA sites were closed down and those prisoners were brought to Guantanamo?
Well, let me tell you, Scott, it's a good question, it's important, and these statistics are publicly available, but they're probably not aired enough.
The 14 high-value detainees were brought to Guantanamo in September 2006, and a couple of years ago I spoke to Larry Wilkerson, who was Colin Powell's chief of staff, and he related an anecdote told to him by a good friend with knowledge of the inside workings of the Bush administration, who said, well, you know, they brought those guys in because they kept saying that there were terrorists in Guantanamo and there weren't any.
So by bringing these guys in, at least they could back up their claims somehow.
Now there's at least a few.
What other intelligence officials are on the record of saying anonymously is that there were no major bad guys in Guantanamo before they arrived.
What there were were a few low-to-mid-level people somehow involved in al-Qaeda and a few Taliban leaders as well, but no more than a few dozen of those.
So there you have it.
This is the truth about Guantanamo.
I think Wilkerson told me the very same thing, too.
I think actually it was his point that, you know, they were innocent and they didn't bring the guilty there until 06.
Yeah.
So there you go.
We're still looking at the same thing.
I would say a maximum of three dozen people, and yet there are 166 men still held at Guantanamo.
So, you know, let's get all the rest of those guys out.
Now tell us real quickly about the Yemenis, the guilt by nationality here.
Sure.
Well, you know, the task force, this sober collection of officials that Obama appointed who spent a year going through the cases, they approved of the remaining prisoners.
I mean, some of them have been released, but very few of the Yemenis.
So of the people that are still held, of these 86, two-thirds of these guys are Yemenis.
And, you know, what happened was that almost on the eve of the task force issuing its report after a year of deliberation, when they had said, OK, look, here's dozens of Yemenis, you can send them home.
What happened was that a Nigerian man, who I'm sure we all know, Mafarouk Abdulmutallab, tried ineptly to blow up a obviously not very good bomb in his underwear on a plane bound for Detroit.
He was apprehended.
It then turned out that he was apparently recruited in Yemen.
There was a huge hysterical backlash from the huge hysterical backlash lobbying brigade who were always looking out for an opportunity to make Americans terrified, who insisted that President Obama mustn't release any more Yemenis from Guantanamo, even though they'd been cleared by very serious deliberations by the government, and even though they clearly had nothing to do with anything that may or may not have happened with this man on the plane.
And he capitulated, as he has so often capitulated, to any kind of criticism and back down and banned releasing any Yemenis.
So what is the basis on which these men, who were cleared by the government task force, I repeat it over and over again, his own government cleared these men to be released, what is the basis on which they're still held?
Well, it's simply that they're Yemenis.
There is no other justification for continuing to hold them, except for the fact that being a Yemeni is so deeply troubling that you must be indefinitely detained for the rest of your life.
And we particularly saw that in September, because one of these guys who was cleared, a man with longstanding mental health issues, who had never been a threat to anybody, Adnan Latif, died at Guantanamo.
And it was, Scott, as I know you know, and I hope that as many of your listeners as possible know, it was at least nearly six years since he had been told, we do not want to hold you anymore.
Bush had told him this.
Obama had told him this.
He hadn't gone home because he was a Yemeni.
He died at Guantanamo, waiting after waiting and waiting and waiting to be free.
I don't think it gets any worse than this collection of facts that I've just given you.
I think this ought to appal any American who has the vestige of a heart that these things are being done in their name by President Obama.
It's a hell of a thing, man.
I don't know.
Well, I do know.
It's the partisanship, right?
That's the big stumbling block that you just can't get over.
You know what I mean?
Would you prefer Mitt Romney hold them at Guantanamo?
And then that's it.
I appreciate the way you say it, because I want people to imagine, what would it be like to be locked in a cage like an animal simply because you're from Yemen?
Maybe that's not fair.
I don't know.
Some people will get it, Scott.
The thing is to try and make this bigger.
Those of us who care about this come from all different walks of life.
Those of us who have any connection whatsoever with the administration need to start knocking on doors and saying, listen, guys, come on.
The epitaph for your administration is already written.
You can change it, but it is already written that you guys were useless.
You were cowards.
You were cowards, and you were weak, and you were liars, and you were lazy.
This is what's going to happen unless you sort this out.
Sort it out.
The injustice is absolutely clear.
I know that.
I've seen that over the last few days, and particularly it's clearing people and not releasing them.
A little light goes on in the eyes of people who for a minute think, hang on a minute, what if I was in prison and they told me that I wasn't supposed to be there, but they showed no sign of ever, ever, ever letting me go?
Man, that's bad.
And that's exactly the truth.
It is about as bad as you can think.
Yeah, that's torture itself.
Or these people who are told, you're not ever even getting a trial, or even if you do get a trial and you're acquitted, they're going to keep holding you as an illegal enemy, belligerent, whatever the hell you call it anyway, and we'll make up a new word if we have to.
Right, exactly.
I mean, that seems like torture to me, you know?
Can you imagine?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, in real life, imagine that, locked in a cage and being told, and not because you're guilty of capital murder, but over some nonsense, locked up for life like that.
I encourage everyone who's interested in this issue, Scott, to at least come and sign up to the Close Guantanamo campaign that I'm involved in.
Oh, what's the website for that?
It's closeguantanamo.org.
What?
Closeguantanamo.org.
Oh, great.
And people can come and sign up.
We're publicizing the stories of the prisoners, and we'll be campaigning on this issue, as I will continue to do on my website.
But, you know, come and join us.
Let's build up this campaign this year, because the issues are so horrible and so clear, and they've never been so horrible and so clear, and they will carry on being like that with every year.
With every year, it gets worse.
Hey, you know what?
You can argue your way out of holding people that you said you wanted to release.
The longer it goes on, the worse it is.
So let's bring it to an end.
Hey, are there any good congressmen or senators that, you know, seem like they want to move on this that people could focus on, or no?
Well, you know, the problem is that you were talking about earlier how people actually expended some of their political capital and then found out that the president was too lazy to actually back it up.
Now, you know, then, I mean, the thing is, then we had the election campaign.
But now, you know, at least until the midterms, there is a short amount of time in which people who might remember that it might be useful to care about something every now and then could do it.
So obviously there are a handful of people there who can be involved, and I suspect that it isn't just Democrats.
It's Republicans as well.
There are some people who, you know, who care.
And maybe what we're going to find with the, I think, huge uproar that is going to carry on building over Zero Dark Thirty, this dreadful pro-torture film by this woman who's been played by the torturers, is that people will tie that into Guantanamo as well.
And, you know, that's the best hope, I suppose, is that we can start to push on some of these people.
But, you know, does anyone have that much faith in almost the entirety of the people in Congress?
No, not really.
And why are they so unpopular?
Well, because they are useless.
Yeah.
Or, you know, at doing anything good, anyway.
Yes, yes.
All right.
Again, thank you so much for your time, Andy.
Advancing the causes of, you know, Wall Street and, you know, the military-industrial complex and, you know, whatever.
Yeah, doing the right thing in that.
Agribusiness.
It's become deeply unfashionable.
All right.
Well, thanks a lot, man.
It's great to talk to you.
And thanks so much for your continued efforts on this issue, man.
We need you.
Yeah, well, thank you for your interest as well, Scott.
You know, and it's great to talk to you as always.
All right, everybody.
That is the great Andy Worthington.
He's at the Future Freedom Foundation, fff.org, and andyworthington.co.uk.
The book is The Guantanamo Files.
The movie is Outside the Law.
And the new call to action is closeguantanamo.org.
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Check out these and a thousand other great ones at libertystickers.com.
And, of course, they'll take care of all your custom printing for your band or your business at thebumpersticker.com.
That's libertystickers.com.
Everyone else's stickers suck.
Hey, y'all, Scott here.
First of all, thanks to the show's sponsors and donors who make it possible for me to do this.
Secondly, I need more sponsors and more donors if the show is to continue.
ScottHorton.org has all the links to use PayPal, Give.org, Google Wallet, WePay.com, and even Bitcoins to make a donation in any amount.
You can also sign up for monthly donations of small and medium-sized amounts through PayPal and Give.org.
Again, that's ScottHorton.org for all the links.
To advertise on the site or the show, email me, Scott at ScottHorton.org.
And thanks.