12/12/12 – Jacob Hornberger – The Scott Horton Show

The Scott Horton Show is brought to you by the Future Freedom Foundation at www.fff.org.
Join the great Jacob Hornberger and some of the best writers in the libertarian movement like James Bovard, Sheldon Richmond, Anthony Gregory, Wendy McElroy, and more for a real individualist take on the most important matters of peace, liberty, and prosperity in our society.
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All right, y'all.
Welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton.
Our next guest is Jacob Hornberger.
He's the founder and the president of the Future of Freedom Foundation at FFF.org.
Welcome back to the show, Jacob.
How are you doing?
Hey, fine.
Thank you, Scott.
Nice to be back.
Well, good.
And I really want to talk with you about these great articles you wrote about Cuba.
But first, I want to talk with you about the Future Freedom Foundation, which you founded and are the president of.
It's y'all's fund drive time right now.
And so I was thinking maybe I'd give you a chance to explain to the people why your organization is worth supporting here.
Yeah, thank you for that.
This is our end of year fundraising drive.
And this is what funds us predominantly for the coming year.
And we've been in existence 23 years now.
And we advance an uncompromising case for the libertarian philosophy.
And we're presenting people with an alternative paradigm.
As we all know, the welfare warfare state is cracking apart.
It's sending our nation into bankruptcy.
It's warping our values.
It's engaging in torture or assassination.
It's plundering and looting people.
I mean, it's a failure.
The welfare warfare state is a failure.
And so what we do is we paint the picture of what the alternative is.
And the alternative to this state of society is libertarianism.
And the only way we can do that, advance ideas on liberty and so forth, is with the support that we get from people.
And so this is our big end of year fundraising drive.
And people that like our work, we greatly appreciate your support in it.
All right, talk to me about some of your riders here.
Well, we've got a great cast of riders.
We've got people like James Bovard that's been with us about 20-something years.
Sheldon Richman, who's been riding for us for, again, 20 years or so, he just joined us as a full-time staff member.
As you know, he edited the Freeman for many years, and 15 years, and before that worked at the Cato Institute.
Now he's joined us as a full-time staff member.
We've got Wendy McElroy, Lawrence Vance, Andy Worthington, Tim Kelly.
We just added Sheldon's column, TGIF.
And then we just got a brand-new columnist, Steve Horowitz, who teaches at George Mason and has brought a dimension of Austrian economics and economic principles to our site.
We just have a brand-new website.
So things are exciting here at FFF.
People that have not seen our website, we invite them to take a look at it.
We're really psyched about it.
So it's going to enable us to advance liberty much more effectively with what we consider is an all-star cast of writers.
Yeah.
And hey, listen, let me talk about the website a little bit myself, too, because, no offense, the old website was terrible.
It was a year 2000 model or something, and it must have been extremely difficult to find a group of web geniuses capable of taking the amount of content that you had and turning it into a 2012, integrating all of that into a database-driven fancy new thingamajig here.
And boy, do they do a great job.
And again, when you talk about the careers of Bovard in Richmond there and things like that and yourself, there really is 20 years' worth of weekly articles, daily articles here at FFF.org.
It's, I don't know how you estimate how many millions of words that is or whatever, but this is a real treasure trove, especially if you want context, right?
What was Jacob writing about Iraq sanctions in 1994?
I bet something brutal, something awesome.
You know, it's right there.
Well, right.
And yeah, the company that we hired to do this is called Emergent Order out of Austin and headed by a guy named John Popla, who's a great libertarian himself.
And it was an enormous task.
You're absolutely right, 20 years.
I'm sorry?
He did a great job on this thing.
Yeah, we're just so pleased with it.
And he really devoted his time and energy.
He took a personal interest in this.
And we're just so happy with the work he's done.
That's great.
And again, it's FFF.org.
You can't get more simple than that.
You're stuck at a bus stop anywhere.
Just blam, right there on your phone, FFF.org.
A million articles to read by the best libertarian writers in the history of the world.
Okay, good.
FFF.org.
Now, talk to me all about Cuba.
First of all, can you give me an overview of American policy toward Cuba at this point, as far as the embargo and travel restrictions and whatever?
How exactly is it set up?
Yeah, it goes back to, believe it or not, all the way back to the Spanish-American War in 1898, when the statists, the progressives and so forth, were converting America not only into a welfare state, but also an empire, a warfare state.
And so they said, well, we're going to help the Cubans gain their independence from Spanish, the Spanish empire's rule.
And at the end of it, that succeeded.
But really, what they did was they said, well, now that the Spanish empire's gone, we're going to substitute U.S. government control over this.
And that was the genesis of the U.S. military empire.
It happened there in Cuba.
It happened in the Philippines, where they killed tens of thousands of Filipinos who wanted their independence from both Spain and the U.S.
Well, this begins this long obsession with controlling Cuba.
You know, we occupied the country for many decades, or the U.S. government did.
Then they were supporting a brutal dictator named Fulgencio Batista.
The U.S. empire was just a horrible dictator.
And then it's finally ousted from power by Fidel Castro.
I mean, the Cuban people were just sick and tired of this guy.
And so he flees the country, and Castro takes over.
And immediately, he starts establishing a socialist country.
But more important, he says he's not going to let Cuba be controlled anymore by the U.S. empire.
And that is what converted him into an enemy of the empire.
They wanted to control Cuba.
And so here began the assassination attempts, the regime change operations, the embargo, all against a country that had never attacked the United States, to this day has never attacked the United States, has never engaged in any kind of terrorism, has really been the victim of U.S. aggression for the simple fact that a man has an ideological belief that's supposedly different from U.S. status and who refused to submit himself to the domination of the U.S. empire.
And that's what it's all about, just a regime change operation.
That's what the embargo is still about, a regime change operation.
Boy, it sure isn't working, right?
Because he sees power, what, 59, Castro?
Yeah, 59.
And it's brutalized the Cuban people.
I mean, surely their socialist system has brutalized them.
But the other part of the vice is this horrible embargo.
And the embargo is the communist excuse, right?
For this is why you're suffering, not because of our crappy economics.
Oh, it's been the greatest bonanza for Fidel Castro.
Because they're always been on the verge of starvation, so he just blames it on the embargo or what he calls the blockade.
And so that's a great scapegoat for him.
And more important, it's an attack on the freedom of the American people.
And that's what all too many Americans just don't understand, is that they submit to this control by the U.S. government that puts them in jail for engaging in travel and trade and spending money in Cuba.
In other words, we've adopted the economic principles of the communists and the socialists in order to supposedly fight communism and socialism.
We've abandoned our old principles in this quest.
And that's, of course, what the national security state has done to us.
It's warped our values and warped our principles.
Yeah, it's funny, right?
You look at the military commissions there at Guantanamo Bay, and if you spun around three times, you might get dizzy and confused at which side of the wall you were looking at there.
Oh, they're mirror images of what goes on in Castro's side.
In fact, the irony of this is I visited Cuba many years ago, and at the time I was visiting, they had a guy on trial who was accused of engaging in terrorist bombings of hotels there on behalf of the CIA.
And I was staying at one of the hotels that he had been accused of bombing, and they had the trial all over TV, like national television.
So I was able to see some of the proceedings.
And you would have thought that this was just like being at Guantanamo Bay many years later in the war on terrorism.
Military tribunals, defense lawyers, you know, they're really not defense lawyers at all, people in uniforms, the prosecutors.
I mean, it was eerie.
And you always knew what the outcome was going to be, just like you do at Guantanamo Bay.
But no due process, you know, no telling what they did to this guy, forced confessions and so forth.
In fact, I often think that sometimes they may have copied some of the judicial proceedings on Castro's side over there on the U.S. side of Cuba.
Now, you think when Fidel finally dies, I wish he would just finally die.
But anyway, I guess I shouldn't say that about anybody.
But when he finally does die, do you think that they'll do anything, they'll change anything, or, you know, we'll still have his brother there and he's still got the devil's last name?
Well, it's impossible to know.
But one thing's for certain, this is the business of the Cuban people.
It is not the business of the U.S. government.
And as libertarians, we wish everyone well.
We would like to see freedom achieved in as many countries on Earth.
But it may or may not happen.
We can't even achieve freedom in our system here.
I mean, keep in mind that the Cuban socialist system is very similar to the U.S. system.
They've just carried their principles out to their logical conclusion.
But they have Social Security there, Medicare, Medicaid, subsidies, income taxation.
I mean, the whole, the equalization of wealth.
They've carried the status principles to their logical conclusion.
But, you know, whether Castro, when Castro dies or whatever, I mean, people have been, you know, waiting for him to die for years.
I think that's a fool's errand.
I think we ought to just forget Cuba, lift the embargo, liberate the American people, and concentrate on achieving freedom here at home.
And serve as a model for the people of the world instead of something that really mimics the communist way of life with our tribunals, our indefinite detention, our kidnapping, assassinations.
I mean, how much closer can you get to a totalitarian regime than those things?
Yeah.
Well, and, you know, we seem to follow the British model, too, on don't you dare try to declare independence from us because we will starve you out.
And even if it takes 60, 70, 80 years, whatever, I can't do math on the fly.
Yeah, it's just absolutely amazing that they still won't lift this embargo.
I mean, they're still thinking, oh, well, maybe there will be a military coup like, you know, when they got Pinochet in the power.
And the U.S. National Security State was so excited about getting Pinochet because he could wipe out communists without taking them to trial and torture them and kill them and so forth.
And that's what they're still hoping for in Cuba.
Or they're hoping for some kind of violent revolution that Al Castro puts another pro-U.S. dictator in, like Batista.
And what they don't realize is that, I mean, what I found in Cuba was that most Cubans, they don't like the socialist system.
But they revere Castro for finally making Cuba independent of U.S. government control.
And this is what U.S. officials have never been able to figure out.
They think that the Cuban people are just anxiously awaiting, you know, the military troops of the U.S. to come in and control them and take care of them and, you know, provide whatever tutelage they supposedly need.
But they thought that at the Bay of Pigs, remember?
They thought, oh, the Cuban people are going to rise and embrace us.
Well, no.
The Cuban people were sick and tired of U.S. control and U.S. support of Batista and other dictators.
This is what the U.S. is known for in Latin America.
It's support of dictatorships, just like it's known for that in the Middle East, too.
Yeah.
Well, you know, these people really do believe their own lies a lot.
I mean, that's what Saddam thought when he invaded Iran, too, was that this is going to be a cakewalk because everybody's going to be like, yay, Saddam is here to save us.
Which, again, it didn't work out that way.
No, it's that arrogance, you know, of thinking, oh, everyone loves me.
And the fact is that people all over the world, they love Americans, but they don't like this government.
And they understand this is a government that is an empire.
And how many people like empires?
And it establishes its domination and control over foreigners with extreme brutality.
It supports extreme dictatorships.
It enters into partnerships with them.
And people understand that.
And certainly the people of Cuba understand it.
So, you know, while they're not great lovers of socialism, they know the world has left them behind economically.
The last thing they want is the U.S. to try to take control again and install its own dictator again.
Yeah.
All right.
Now, so talk to me about this story of the prisoner swap, because I think, as you illustrate in your article, this really shows the difference between what's a libertarian and what's a conservative.
Just one little example for those who are confused.
Yeah, it's a fascinating case.
I mean, it was two cases.
They've got the case of Alan Gross, who got caught distributing satellite telephones in Cuba, which is illegal, what he did under Cuban law.
And he got convicted and he got sentenced to serve 15 years in jail.
Well, it turns out that he's being funded by the U.S. government through one of its U.S.
AID programs, which has always been a front for the CIA.
And so the conservatives get all bananas over this and say, oh, gosh, distributing cell phones or satellite phones, what's the big deal?
This is what freedom's all about.
He was just trying to spread freedom.
Well, this is all just nonsense.
Conservatives won't face the truth that this is what the CIA does.
It's not they're spreading freedom.
It's they're trying to affect regime change.
It's trying to get rid of the dictator that won't do what it's told, what he's told, in order to install another dictator that will do what he's told.
Now, Gross may have been an innocent lackey in this, a puppet.
He's actually sued the U.S. government for setting him up like this.
But regardless, this is not about spreading freedom and democracy and stuff.
This is classic U.S. regime change operations.
You know, it follows in the whole vein of assassinating Castro because he's a communist and the terrorist attacks on these hotels and so forth.
So this guy's sitting in jail.
So the Cubans say, OK, look, we'll swap him.
You're holding five of our guys and we'll swap him, one for five.
Well, this column I was critiquing came out of the Conservative Heritage Foundation, where they said, oh, well, this is not really a good swap because these five guys were spying.
Well, what they were doing, these five Cuban agents, is they came over the U.S. to try to ferret out terrorist attacks against Cuba, including one sponsored by the U.S. government, before they took place.
Because, you know, they've been besieged by U.S.
-sponsored terrorist attacks.
For example, there's that airplane, the Cubana Airlines, back in the 70s, that was brought down, killing, I don't know, 80 people or so.
Innocent Cuban civilians, including the members of the fencing team.
And that supposedly was orchestrated by a former CIA agent.
They say he's former.
We don't really know that Venezuela is trying to extradite for trial.
I mean, he's accused of this crime and the U.S. harbors this guy and says, no, we're not going to send him back to Cuba.
Well, these five Cuban agents are over here trying to ferret out these kind of things before they happen.
And so they're accused of spying.
And so these conservatives go, really?
Oh, yeah, they're spies, they're spies.
But notice what they're spying for.
This is what conservatives never do.
They're not spying in order to try to find locations to come and attack the United States.
They're spying in order to stop or prevent terrorist attacks that are originating in the United States.
In other words, their actions are entirely defensive.
They act like they're Nazi saboteurs just fresh off the U-boat.
Right.
They're not engaging in any sabotage at all.
They're just saying, we're over here trying to figure out where the next terrorist attack is going to be coming from and what we can do to prevent it, whether it's a hotel, an airplane or whatever.
And so they get convicted and get these huge, long sentences.
I mean, like, I don't know, 20, 30 years or something.
They've been there for, I think, more than 10 years now in jail.
They all got families back home.
They're considered heroes in Cuba, not surprisingly.
Well, you know, so they're saying, let's do a prisoner swap.
And so the conservatives are saying, oh, no, this would be terrible.
Well, I don't think it'd be terrible for Gross.
I think Gross is a pretty old guy.
I think he's in his early 70s or something.
And supposedly his health's not very good.
Yeah, do the prisoner swap.
But more important, lift the whole embargo.
Let these guys go back to Cuba.
Stop the terrorist attacks.
Stop the regime change operations.
Liberate the American people to travel to Cuba.
Don't wait till Castro dies.
It's ridiculous.
And, you know, establish harmonious relations again.
I mean, hey, we're doing it with Vietnam, right?
Well, you know, the problem is, is eventually when the Castro regime is gone and they have their regime change one way or the other, just from passage of time or or exploding cigar or however exactly they pull it off, then it's going to go back to the bad old days, not not any good old days.
It'll just be mobsters and American land barons coming in there and stealing that country right out from under the people.
They're taking their independence right back.
Well, not necessarily.
I mean, as long as the U.S. government doesn't get involved in protecting the mobsters and supporting their dictators, you never know.
That's what I mean.
Yeah, if I mean, it's very possible that if if the U.S. would just butt out of other nation's affairs, that they would be able to develop in a very natural, healthy way.
I mean, look at Iran.
You know, they were developing a very healthy democratic system.
And in 1953, the CIA goes and just destroys it.
They have a coup that ousts the democratically elected prime minister, Mossadegh.
They install this brutal dictator, the Shah of Iran.
They the CIA goes in there and trains his secret police force on how to be a CIA in that country, torturing people and so forth.
And then he's ousted in the revolution and properly.
So the guy was a brutal dictator.
But then you end up with this this aberrant Islamic regime.
Well, that's all because the U.S. went in there and just destroyed their democratic system.
And, you know, whatever happens with Cuba, the best thing that could ever happen is just the American people don't permit the U.S. government to get involved in it because they'll just destroy the system.
Yeah.
Well, this is kind of the thing about the Vietnam War that everybody figured out 10 years later or something was that, oh, they actually weren't all communists and they weren't all pro Ho Chi Minh, but they were all agreed that they wanted the whites and they're occupying armies off of their little peninsula there.
That was what it was all about.
Independence.
Yeah.
I mean, like it's really it's in some cases it's just like Cuba, because we often forget that Vietnam never attacked the United States.
It never engaged in a terrorist attack on the United States.
Neither is Cuba.
The U.S. is the aggressor there.
The U.S. invaded that country that was involved in a civil war.
Now, you know, imagine if Vietnam had invaded the U.S. in the midst of our civil war, you know, we'd still be complaining about it.
Well, that's essentially what the U.S. did.
The U.S. was the aggressor in that conflict.
And let's not also forget that Ho Chi Minh, after the French were kicked out of the country, was willing to establish friendly relationships with the U.S.
And there was even going to the agreement, the Geneva Accords was called for national elections.
And it was the U.S. that violated that agreement because, you know, despite their so-called love for democracy, they knew that democratically Ho Chi Minh was a very popular man.
He would win national elections.
And so we end up with this huge Vietnam War, kills 58,000 American men for nothing, kills countless Vietnamese.
I mean, it's just a total disaster.
And for what, you know?
Yeah.
Well, you know, I got this guy, Tony, I'll say his last name wrong, but at my blog Stress, he posts his anti-war comic.
And it's really good stuff.
He's a really talented artist.
And the latest one is about Michelle Bachman saying, well, you know, I think that the Afghans and the Iraqis, they owe us a bunch of money for liberating them.
Just think of how much treasure we spent in that whole, you know, theme that we really do do it for their own good.
And they really better be grateful.
And in fact, we're kind of disappointed at how ungrateful they are.
I mean, these people, Michelle Bachman, I don't think is alone and really believe in this stuff.
Oh, it's incredible how they rationalize what they've done.
I mean, I guarantee you they didn't liberate the countless people they killed.
Those people are dead.
And for these kind of people, these neocons, it's a cost-benefit analysis.
They say, we can kill as many Iraqis as necessary to bring so-called democracy to their country.
Well, you know, it was never about democracy.
It was about installing a pro-U.S. regime, democratic or not.
And it's boomeranged on them in Iraq because all they ended up doing is succeeded in installing a pro-Iranian regime.
And in fact, that's best manifested by the fact that Iraq's letting Iran fly over its airspace and to deliver weapons to the Syrian regime in contravention to what the U.S. wants it to do.
And then, oh, yeah, in Afghanistan, we've got this crooked, corrupt, fraudulent regime that hasn't been elected at all into power.
It's just another dictator, Karzai.
But these people rationalize it, Scott.
I mean, they sit there and say, oh, we've killed all these people for their own good, and now we've brought them freedom and democracy.
I'll bet you one thing.
I bet you Michelle Bachmann has not taken her family to either Iraq or Afghanistan for vacation during the past 10 years.
Yeah, no, nor will she, you know?
No, of course not, because it's not that much of a paradise, Ms. Bachmann.
You know, I don't really have the stomach to read the National Review and all that, but I wonder what they're saying about al-Qaeda and Iraq guys fighting on America's side in the regime change in Syria.
Now, you talk about how the guys we installed in power are siding with Iran and the Syrian government, but now America's siding with al-Qaeda in Iraq against the Syrian government.
Oh, it's fascinating.
I mean, it's really I mean, if it weren't so tragic, I mean, remember, that's what they did when they sucked the Soviet Union into invading Afghanistan.
Then they start supporting all the radical jihadists there that later become al-Qaeda, that then become the group that says, well, now we want to oust the U.S. from occupying Middle East grounds as well, and that then uses the big bugaboo for the war on terrorism.
And now they're concerned that al-Qaeda may end up being the winner when they end up succeeding in ousting Assad.
I mean, it's just classic boomerang effects from this philosophy of interventionism.
And I think that's what we got to keep harping on, Scott, that it's not just this intervention or that intervention.
It's the whole concept of interventionism and empire.
And that's what distinguishes us libertarians from conservatives or other statists, is that we are looking at this thing in the bigger picture.
We want to restore a free society, a constitutional republic to our land.
There you have it.
That's Jacob Hornberger.
He's the founder and the president of the Future Freedom Foundation.
And check the archive there at FFF.org.
He's been good on everything, just like this, for 20-something years there.
And of course, again, the great Bovard and Richmond and Gregory and Kelly and McElroy and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Sorry for whoever all I left out.
And tell them again how they can donate to FFF during your current fund drive, Jacob, real quick.
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned Anthony Gregory.
I forgot to list him.
And gosh, I hope I didn't forget some other writers.
Go to FFF.org.
We got a free FFF Daily.
Just sign up there.
It's the greatest libertarian publication on the internet.
It goes out every day.
And then our journal, Future Freedom, that used to be called Freedom Daily, that's $25 a year.
But that's how people can support us.
I mean, if we had a lot of people subscribing to $25, that's strong support for us.
And we've got a Freedom Club of people that donate $250 or above.
And they get some little benefits from that.
So yeah, we need people's support to do what we're doing.
We can turn this thing around.
And it comes about through the power of ideas, including what you're doing, Scott, with this show.
And we just got to keep plugging ahead.
I think we're going to see another big libertarian surge happen in the near future.
And that's exciting.
Yeah, definitely.
Well, thank you for supporting this show.
And thank you for your time on it today.
No, it's an honor.
Thank you, Scott.
Really appreciate it.
Keep up the good work.
All right, everybody.
That's the great Jacob Hornberger, FFF.org, the Future of Freedom Foundation.
Hey, y'all.
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