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All right, y'all, welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton.
My website is scotthorton.org.
We're streaming live from there, and I keep all my interview archives there, and I keep all my full show archives there, and I keep my blog there, scotthorton.org.
And you can find me on Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube at slashscotthortonshow.
And our next guest is the great Eric Margulies.
Ericmargulies.com is his website.
Spell it like Margulies.
And check out his books at whatever website you like to buy books from, War at the Top of the World and American Raj, Liberation or Domination.
Welcome back to the show.
How are you doing?
I'm just fine, Scott.
Scott, glad to be back with you, as ever.
Well, good.
I'm very happy to have you here.
Let's talk about Palestine.
Today, the 29th of November, the United Nations General Assembly voted to raise Palestine's status from I don't know what to observer sort of kind of member state of the U.N. or something.
Why don't you fill us in?
The General Assembly, you know, we're so used to hearing about the Security Council that it's unusual that we hear some news out of the General Assembly, which clearly represents the will of the Earth's population.
But the General Assembly finally got around to voting on the issue of statehood for Palestine, and they agreed that it would be raised to the status of observer, and 138 nations voted for the first step in creation of a Palestinian state.
31 abstained, and nine nations stood shoulder to shoulder and voted against a Palestinian state, and that included such world heavyweights as Panama, Palau, Canada, the Marshall Islands, Nauru, and Micronesia.
Oh, man.
All right, well, so I'm not the world's biggest fan of democracy and whatever like that.
95% of the population of the planet Earth wanted something bad to happen to me that could all go to hell.
But I would think that maybe I would have to at least second guess myself and think maybe I had done something to piss them off if 95% of the people in the world were united against me and only the coalition of the bribed and threatened and cajoled that you just named was standing by my side.
You know, is it that the world is mostly evil and they're against poor little Israel, or is it that most people on the planet are thinking that some basic justice, it's about time, you know, that kind of thing?
Well, for a long time, I must say that the world out there has been calling for justice for the Palestinians.
It's been calling for a Palestinian state and never mind Nauru and, you know, Uganda, places like that, but Russia, China and India, the big population places.
Europe has, of course, the entire Arab world has been calling for a state for the stateless Palestinians.
65 years ago, the United Nations divided the British-ruled territory of Palestine and they gave half of it for a Jewish state and half of it for an Arab state for Palestinians.
After a lot of fighting, what ended up, the Jewish state ended up with 78% of Palestine and the Arabs with nothing really because Israel colluded with Jordan to secretly occupy the West Bank and it tried to grab the West Bank, so there was no state for the Palestinians.
And today, we have 6 million stateless, homeless Palestinians calling for a national homeland and, as I said, most of the world supports them, but Israel says no way over our dead bodies and big brother United States is 100% behind Israel and now Canada as well.
Okay, a couple of things.
First of all, when all those other governments in the world agree about this, are they representing really what their people think too?
Oh, absolutely, absolutely, Scott.
There's just a very, very high level of worldwide support for the idea of a Palestinian state and for rights for the Palestinians.
And now, is that what you favor too?
Because I know some people who do care about the Palestinians and their future who think that it's too late for that and there should be a single-state solution instead.
Well, a single-state solution means a joint state in the total territory of Palestine regardless of people's religious affiliations.
I think it should be.
I'm against religious-based states.
I don't think they're right, but I don't think that's going to work in Israel because the Israelis would not accept such a solution.
Very few of them would.
No, a two-state solution is the way to go.
And personally, I mean, in my book, American Raj, I wrote extensively about this.
The suffering of the Palestinian people is the main reason that's been causing hatred for the United States across the Muslim world, what we call hatred, terrorism.
This Palestinian issue burns every night across TV sets from Morocco to Indonesia and inflames people.
And until we resolve it, the Middle East is going to be in turmoil and the United States is going to be the target of hatred.
It can be resolved, but the only way to resolve it, as everyone who knows the Middle East knows, is that it's creation of a viable, geographically viable, small Palestinian state with its capital in East Jerusalem.
You know what's funny, man, is when you say all that, you reminded me of something that I read.
I think it's in the Israel Lobby by Walt and Mearsheimer where, and I remember some of this was public information at the time, that Colin Powell had really convinced George W. Bush of this after September 11th, that we've really got to resolve this and we have all the political capital in the whole wide world now to do anything and this is the thing that we have to do, Mr. President.
And Bush said, okay.
And then Tom DeLay came to town and said, nope, no American evangelical Christian will ever vote for you again and I will spearhead the right-wing assault against you and so you better back down.
And George Bush backed down to Tom DeLay.
That's a pretty sickening story, but it sounds true and there is no doubt that if you add the power of the pro-Israel lobby in the United States to that of these Christian evangelical fundamentalists, the ones who call themselves Christian Zionists and who believe that the world actually did begin with Adam and Eve, that you have a very powerful constituency to support Israel and which Israel has cultivated over the years and there's no powerful constituency to call for American justice or to support a Palestinian state in the Middle East.
It's just amazing, isn't it, how George Bush could have got anything he wanted.
You know, this is before the invasion of Iraq and all that.
He could have got anything he wanted from any politician in the world except the minority whip in the House.
That's true.
Who came to whip his ass right into line.
It's a great waste of opportunity.
Obama could probably have done it too if he had wanted to go to war on this issue.
But now it's clear that Washington is paralyzed on the Middle East.
It has lost its independence of motion because of domestic, political, and religious lobbies.
So the United States is almost alone on this issue with Israel.
And now Canada has jumped into the fray.
And interestingly, now Canada, which used to be the world champion of internationalism, and UN, and peacekeeping, the new right-wing government in Canada has become infatuated with Israel's right-wing government.
It even sent its foreign minister to New York yesterday to denounce the Palestinians and scold them and tell them they have no right to demanding even observer status in the UN.
What's happened here, again, the new conservative government in Canada is dominated by prairie fundamentalists from Alberta.
And just as the fundamentalists, the religious right in the U.S. has gotten behind Israel and been cultivated by Israel, these are very powerful blocs.
They are making policy.
It's kind of funny.
My friend Phil, he's been a fan of the show for years and years.
He's always hanging around in the various comment sections of my Facebook page.
He's always got a perfect Three Stooges metaphor for these guys and everything they do.
He says, well, no wonder the water won't run.
This pipe's all full of wires.
Well, Three Stooges is a good way to describe it, but it's tragic, too.
So you have the United States, the land of liberty, the defender of the oppressed, the tired, the homeless, telling the tired, homeless, and oppressed, no, you can't have a state.
And we have to be very frank about this.
You know, this awful woman, Susan Rice, who's being talked up for secretary of state, sort of an attack dog at the U.N., told the Palestinians, how dare you ask for observer status as if this is a great danger and insult to the world.
It follows the U.N. charter, and the United States is certainly not practicing what it preaches abroad about human rights.
Yeah, and the Americans don't notice, but everybody else does, I'm pretty sure.
Well, they do.
So what change does this make?
I mean, where the rubber meets the road, I hear mentions of the ICC.
Does this mean Hamas is about to indict Benjamin Netanyahu?
It could happen.
The Israelis are very concerned that the Palestinians, may try and present a case to the International Criminal Court that Israel has massively violated the Geneva Conventions on the West Bank and committed other illegal acts.
The U.S. will somehow shut this down, I'm sure.
But there is definitely this fear.
But it's also a sign that the momentum behind Palestinian statehood is growing.
And this puts great pressure on Israel now, because the Americans and the Canadians had just told the Palestinians, no, no, no, you have to go back to direct negotiations with Israel.
Cute.
Because they know the Israeli government, the Likud government in Israel, has zero intention of ever negotiating an independent Palestinian state.
Over our dead bodies, they say.
And in fact, another wrinkle, the Israelis are now saying, it's not enough for Hamas and the PLO to recognize the state of Israel, which they have more or less done already, is that they have to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.
That has huge implications.
Israel is, 20% of Israelis are Muslims and Christians.
That's like calling the United States a Protestant nation.
But that's what the Israelis, what they're doing is setting up.
They're just moving the goalposts, right?
Exactly.
And once you say it's a Jewish state, now you have to say it's purple and can stand on its head for longer than anybody else, too.
And speak Swahili.
Yes, exactly.
That's what's happening.
Meanwhile, of course, the Israelis are building day and night.
They're building new settlements and evicting Palestinians from their land and taking their water.
So the Israeli plan is obviously to stall and talk and talk and talk as long as possible until they drive most of the Palestinians out of the West Bank or herd them into camps.
Yeah, you know, that was the funny picture going around on Facebook last night, Eric, was the Palestinians, some Palestinians in Bethlehem, watching Abu Mazen, what's his other name?
Abbas, give his speech at the United Nations.
And they're watching it projected on the giant apartheid wall, snaking throughout the West Bank, cutting off the Palestinians from their property and surrounding all the settlements there.
And, you know, the news is this morning that they've just announced unilaterally, you know, that they're going to build a whole, I don't know how many thousands of new parts of colonies anyway, if not brand new colonies on the West Bank.
That's right.
It goes on and on.
And they're really, Israel is hell bent on clearing everything out it can.
The Likud party, since its founding in the 1920s, or what it used to be called back then, has never agreed to a Palestinian or sharing Palestine.
It's Jewish from the sea to the Jordan River.
And there is a school of thought put forth by, originally mentioned by Moshe Dayan, I talk about it in my book, that said that no Israeli in the current generation has the right to define Israel's borders.
In other words, that may not even be enough, the Jordan River.
Israel may want to go further.
And Israel is in such a powerful position now in the Middle East.
Its two biggest enemies, Iraq and Syria, have been crushed by American power.
The American government has been brought under total control by its pro-Israel groups in the States.
Israel can do what it wants.
It's got gas offshore now.
It's in the catbird seat.
So Israel is certainly not in any mood to compromise.
Well, now you brought up Syria there.
There's a piece from the Global Post today that's citing the taking of some bases here and some border regions there near Turkey and near Iraq, a fighting near the airport in Damascus.
And they're saying, hey, maybe Assad's days really are numbered and this is the end of the regime change.
What do you think?
I think so, Scott.
We're seeing more and more Western sophisticated arms pouring into these opposition groups in Syria.
I've said for months now that there are some Western special forces involved in Syria already and some probably Turkish special forces.
The Syrian military is being ground down.
It's having major supply problems.
And it can hold on for a while longer, but its capabilities are being sharply reduced.
And, of course, the Israelis are delighted because they thought the Syrian army would be their number one enemy.
And here its own people are destroying it.
Yeah, well, and now to what degree is that true?
And to what degree is this just a bunch of Saudi CIA paid mercenaries doing Western dirty work?
It's a combination of both in my view.
What started in Syria was a legitimate uprising against this draconian, brutal dictatorship which ruled for 40 years and was ruthlessly repressed by the government, which was a major mistake.
That then morphed into an armed insurrection that was local initially, but very quickly found support from abroad.
And then so you have that sort of popular uprising.
And then you now have a steady stream of mercenaries who are being sent in from abroad, jihadists who fought in Iraq and maybe even Afghanistan, certainly Libya.
And they're doing the lion's share of the fighting in Syria.
I look at these people on TV clips and I can tell who's a local boy and who's one of these wild men jihadists.
From somewhere else?
Yes.
Yeah.
And they are being supported and financed and armed and paid now by the CIA.
In a nice twist of irony.
So here we've come full circle back to the days of the mid-1980s when I was in Afghanistan and the CIA and the Saudi intelligence were financing and arming the Mujahideen.
Now we're doing the same thing again except we're turning them against the Syrian government.
Yeah, but don't worry because there won't be any negative consequences this time.
No, until these jihadis pop up somewhere else and start shooting at somebody that we like, like the Saudis or the Kuwaitis, then they'll be reclassified as terrorists.
Yeah, well, you know, this is what Michael Shorter said years and years ago, the former chief of the CIA's bin Laden unit, about the Iraq war was, man, we had them all exiled in Afghanistan and you just gave them direct access to the Levant.
They're in Iraq now and they'll be going across that fake border, that non-existent border into Syria and spreading and soon you'll have al-Qaeda, real al-Qaeda in Lebanon.
And with access to Israel even.
And why didn't you just keep them in Afghanistan?
There were a couple of hundred of them.
You shouldn't have overthrown Saddam, you dummies.
Well, that's true.
Saddam was a cork in the bottle.
And I think Assad in Syria will be another cork in the bottle.
And we don't know what we're doing.
We have ignorant people running U.S. policy in that part of the world.
They don't understand the subtleties.
And there are political special interests that are making things happen that are not necessarily in the interest of the United States.
Anyway, we can now see in retrospect that overthrowing Saddam, I've always said from day one was a big mistake.
His secret police threatened to hang me when I was in Iraq.
I have no love for Saddam.
But Iraq now is far worse off than it was under Saddam.
Well, and this whole time too.
And I was showing people this thing on the blog at antiwar.com today.
Iraqis cannot forget what the Americans have done here.
To just try to remind them a little bit of the horror of that war that people try so hard to forget and what those people are still living with there.
But now, see, that's a big part of the story too, right?
Is that, oops, we accidentally, sure, we empower the al-Qaeda guys and the kind of guys who would like to travel to Syria to participate in a revolution in the Sunni regions, but we really gave the lion's share of the country to the Shiite Arabs in alliance with Iran.
And then, so, I think they realize that, right?
That's what Seymour Hersh reported back years ago about the redirection, was they finally said, well, we screwed up and maybe so now we need to work harder with the Saudis on trying to contain the Shiite revolution that we accidentally just imported into Iraq.
And so, this thing in Syria is a part of that, right?
Even though they're attacking the Baathists there, it's the Shiites that they're attacking there.
And it's the Muslim Brotherhood and worse, right?
The suicide bomber brigade who stand to inherit the country.
Who are suicide bombers now.
It's amazing.
When a car bomb goes off in downtown Damascus, it's an act of defiance against the oppressive government.
When it goes off in Kabul, it's an act of outrageous terrorism.
Yeah.
And then, like you were mentioning, some of these fighters are from Afghanistan and Iraq.
So, it's the very same guys, in fact, that we're currently fighting in Afghanistan.
And that, you know, the government, they're saying at least that the small number of American troops and mercenaries in Iraq are still there for what?
For counter-terrorism purposes.
To help our friend Maliki keep Al-Qaeda down.
Well, why not just give them trucks and guns and send them off to Syria?
Maybe that is what they're doing.
And, you know, you've got to remember, too, that there are, I think, 30,000 American troops.
They left Iraq, but they just drove down the road to Kuwait.
And they're based there now.
And with air units attached to them, too.
So, anytime they want to re-enter Iraq, they just have to get their trucks in.
And probably six hours, they're in Baghdad.
Oh, man.
I sure hope that doesn't happen again.
Somebody in D.C. has got to know better than that.
But maybe not.
But now, so, wait a minute.
Because, I'm sorry, there's too many things to cover here.
And we just don't have time for them all.
But one of the things that you were talking about was the ignorance of the people in charge here.
So, I'm looking at your article about Egypt, where you're talking about the Americans overreacting and freaking out about Morsi, the Muslim Brotherhood president, seizing power from the court that has always protected the military's interests from the people and everybody else.
And so, they seem to like, you know, of course, they paid Mubarak to torture people to death all day.
You know, they don't mind dictatorship in Egypt.
That's certainly not their problem.
They seem to be worried that this guy is gaining independence from them.
But then, what are we sitting here talking about in Syria?
We're talking about an American-Saudi-Qatari-Muslim Brotherhood project in Syria.
And obviously, I don't know if in direct alliance with the Muslim Brotherhood in Syria, that's got to be part of it.
But certainly for them, since they are the strongest organized leadership among the Sunni Arabs of Syria, if the, you know, Damascus government actually falls.
So, you know, is there a redirection master plan for the Sunnis against the Shiites?
Or really, they are just three stooging their way through this thing?
Oh, I think they're just making it up as they go along.
Definitely.
It's too complicated, and Washington is too diverse in its power to diffuse in its power to develop a common strategy.
It's just hope for the best.
There will be much more influence of the Muslim Brotherhood in Syria, because it is the primary underground.
And it will cause the Americans a lot of trouble down the line.
But who else do they deal with?
That's the reason that the U.S. didn't attack Syria a few years ago, which was in the planning stage, was because they said, well, what are we going to do when we invade?
What local stooges can we find to run the country for us?
And it was the Muslim Brotherhood, and they said, oh, no, no, no.
Right.
But that was the calm, patient wisdom of George W. Bush.
But now we have these reckless Democrats in there.
Yes.
I don't think anybody really, Democrats or Republicans, really knows what to do.
We've got all these sofa samurais advising the government on policy there.
It's very worrisome.
We have the commanding generals with girls under their desks performing acts of valor on them.
It's just it worries me.
The best thing to do in a place like that, get out.
Yeah.
Well, so now about specifically about Morsi's seizure of powers.
What what do you have to say about that?
Because I was just kind of putting words in your mouth there to make a different point.
But I think I was pretty much getting it right.
Yes, you were.
Morsi, what Morsi was president and there was the first Democratic election in Egypt and that was all to the good.
However, the the entire dictatorship structure, the courts, academia, the media, were schools and the religious establishment were still the Mubarak era people.
And they have been fighting to the nail to resist Morsi.
He beat the army, pushed them back out of power.
But he was left now with all these bureaucrats.
You can't really call them right wing because that it's not a good label, but I can't find any better one.
So all these kind of right wing Mubarak is dictatorship clones who were fighting him.
So the only the Morsi frustration after fighting them ever since he got into power and even before, particularly the judges who kept saying, no, you can't do it and dissolve it.
Do it in dissolving the parliament.
He said, OK, I'm taking over until we have a constitution written and a parliament constituted.
And then I'm going to go back to being Mr. Nice Guy again.
Whether that happens or not, it remains to be seen.
Yeah, well, I'm not going to bet on it, but, you know, I guess it's sort of like the thing with Syria.
I think probably a casual listener of this show might think I was on the side of the dictatorship in that one or something like that.
I'm against any politician anywhere in the whole wide world.
I'm just against American intervention over there because I figure, you know, even if they meant well, I mean, obviously, you know, I'm against taxation and all the rest of it.
But if if I accepted a lot of their premises for, well, you know, something terrible is happening and something's got to be done and whatever, and that they meant well and thought that they could make the changes that they want to make, then my argument still would be that the changes they want to make actually are terrible distortions in the amount of power that any one group in any of these countries would actually have.
And that all they're doing is setting everybody up for their Saigon moment.
The same thing they're doing in Afghanistan now.
That Northern Alliance is still going to lose one day.
We're just putting it off.
Same same kind of thing would happen in Syria right now.
Whoever it is, it comes out on top.
It's not going to be who would have if it wasn't the CIA and they're screwing around.
Well, remember, Osama bin Laden's strategy, the only way to drive Americans out of their domination of the Middle East or what I call the American Raj, is to draw them into scores of small conflicts and bleed them until they're too weak and too bankrupt to try and hold on to this region anymore.
And we're well on the way.
Look, American troops, you know, after the great victory of Afghanistan mission accomplished against Al Qaeda, which never numbered more than 300 men to begin with, we now have little so-called Al Qaeda clones in Iraq and Syria and in Yemen and Djibouti and Uganda and Mali and you name it.
It's hard to keep up.
Well, don't worry because they're going to keep trying and we'll have plenty to keep talking about, unfortunately.
That's right.
Well, it's too bad that every anti-Western, anti-American group, and there are many, that pops up.
We immediately branded Al Qaeda because it's too hard to explain to readers or viewers that this is the popular front for the liberation of southern Burkina Faso, which is angry at the northerners who are in league with the easterners.
You know, one quick label.
Right, yeah.
And, of course, it suits them, too.
They go, yeah, exactly.
We're like Zawahiri.
Fear us, Raj.
That's right.
We want attention.
We're part of the Islamo-fascist caliphate taking over the entire planet and you can't stop us.
That's exactly right.
I noticed this years ago.
In fact, I think I put it in my first book that these little two-by-nothing places, and I saw it happen with Qaddafi, particularly in Libya.
Libya was a gas station stop between Cairo and Tunis, and poor little Libyans.
And suddenly he became the arch-terrorist of the world and everybody was trembling before the Libyans and there were intrigues going on and the Russians were there.
This is thrilling for these guys.
They lead boring lives and they're two-by-nothing places and suddenly they're on the world stage and everybody loves being on TV.
Yep, exactly.
Or on the Scott Horton show.
Yeah, well, you know, that's what I ought to do is get Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Maghreb on the show.
But then I'm afraid that even an interview would count as material support and then I would disappear into a legal black hole ghost prison and I'd never get to interview you again.
Oh, my God.
I'll probably be there next to you.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, that's actually what I'm looking forward to when the police state finally quits pretending there's a constitution and all that.
At least I'll be in the death camp with all my favorite writers, you know, and we'll have good times to look back on.
Gives me something to look forward to.
Absolutely.
That would have been funnier if it was original.
I actually said that first to Jim Bovard like nine years ago, so it's a pretty worn-out joke by now.
I'm sorry.
Everybody, that is the great Eric Margulies.
EricMargulies.com.
Spell it like Margolis.
EricMargulies.com.
And you can read him oftentimes at LewRockwell.com.
And check out his books War at the Top of the World and American Raj Liberation or Domination.
We got Jeff Patterson from the Bradley Manning Support Network coming up next.
Hey, y'all.
Scott Horton here.
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And the Israel lobby and their neocon allies must own a dozen.
Well, Americans have a lobby in Washington, too.
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They advocate for us on Capitol Hill.
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-sponsored occupation of the Palestinians and an end to our government's destructive empire in the Middle East.
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Well, Veterans for Peace is making veterans' voices heard in ways and places where they can really make a difference.
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