10/31/12 – Bruce E. Levine – The Scott Horton Show

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Welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton, and our first guest on the show is Dr. Bruce E. Levine.
He's got this piece at alternate reprinted at salon.com.
Does TV actually brainwash Americans?
Of course, we all already know that already, but here is scientific evidence to confirm our bias with.
Welcome to the show.
How are you doing?
Good to be on, Scott.
I was just making fun of everyone for believing whatever they want and taking any fact, whether it actually confirms their bias or not, and using it as though it does anyway.
In this case, if it rains, it's proof that there's global warming, and if it snows, then that's proof that there's not.
Nobody really is interested in actual data.
They all just want to be told that they're right.
A big part of being told that you're right all the time is TV.
As Noam Chomsky put it, especially we talk about very important foreign policy and police state-type topics on this show a lot, and Noam Chomsky calls just the essence of TV conversation in general the propaganda model.
He says it's perfect for having conversations based on false but conceded premises, a very narrow debate within those parameters, and then we got to go to commercial, so I'm sorry we just don't have time for you to bring up any facts that might undermine the point where we all started from.
It seems like that's probably a big part of what you're getting at here with how people are brainwashed by the TV.
It's the big lie by omission, what is shown and what's not, and then what's the implication about what isn't important enough to make the TV today, that kind of thing.
Well, there's multiple levels of why TV is not good for democracy, why it's zombifying, why it's pacifying, why it's brainwashing, and that's one of the things that I should kind of, just a little bit of backdrop, what I'm really interested in are all the different areas, major institutions of American life, culture, that are pacifying us, that are getting us not to fight for democracy, and that was the subject really of that Get Up, Stand Up book, my last book, which was really kind of taking a look at the different areas and what we can do about it, just so one spoke in the wheel, of which there are many, including my own profession, which we could talk about some other time, the mental health profession, but there are several spokes in the wheel that are kind of pacifying us to not act on, to get up and stand up and act for democracy, and television is one of them, and the content of it is only one aspect of it.
There are actually some more insidious aspects of it beyond the content of it.
All right, well, let's talk a little bit about that, because I think I already just plagiarized Chomsky enough for everybody to get that point, so let's move on then.
What is it about the TV?
Because it's not the CRT, right?
It's not the radiation getting your brainwaves anymore, because now everybody's got LCD.
Well, what happens to you?
I mean, a lot of progressives want to focus in on the fact that, you know, the programming is owned by, you know, six major corporations, General Electric, Walt Disney, all these, they own pretty much what everybody sees out there, so there's clearly certain problematic things having to do with the content.
It creates fear-based, you know, kind of programming, gets people sort of scared, it's sort of insipid, and there's a lot of things about the programming itself, but probably the thing that's not talked about enough is just whatever you're viewing, regardless of the content, is going to kind of pacify you, and there's for, you know, a generation now, there's just lots of studies that show no matter what kind of programming you're watching them, they've done it on adults, they've done it on kids, and they've asked them, you know, is this program stuff that you really like, that you find interesting, or where you don't like, and their brainwaves are basically the same, sort of slowed down in a kind of more zombified, hypnotized state, which is why, and this is not true across the board, but it's true for a lot of people, that they'll watch, say, for example, some really good television.
For me, I consider a Bill Moyers interview, a lot of, he's talking to these whistleblowers week after week, talking about people telling us, you know, how really America isn't a democracy, and these are excellent interviews, and lots of folks, including myself, the next day all they can remember is that they saw a pretty good interview.
They don't remember any of the content, as opposed to if you go online and you read a transcript of one of these interviews, you're far more likely, or listen to these things on radio.
If you're listening on radio, reading transcripts, you're far more likely to remember certain content areas than if you're just kind of watching on TV.
Then all you're going to generally remember something is, oh, that was really good.
I was sort of entertained.
That was really interesting.
Right, that's what I always tell the audience on this show.
You can't learn anything listening to the radio.
The whole point of this show is to say, go read this thing that this guy wrote at salon.com.
That's where the learning is.
You go, ah, hey, you know what I learned on the radio today?
There's a thing to read at salon.com.
That's the whole point of this, right?
Antiwar.com/Porter.
That's where the war party's lives are debunked.
Go there.
Well, you're going to learn, actually, your brain is working a lot more when you're just sitting there listening to a radio.
Actually, you're going to incorporate more facts listening to people talk than watching television.
There's a kind of hypnotic, sort of zombifying process that happens to your brain waves watching television that doesn't happen when you're listening to the radio.
It doesn't happen when you're in a conversation with another human.
It certainly doesn't happen when you're reading.
That's been an ongoing major problem of television, no matter how good it is, no matter how much quality it is.
Frontline documentaries, all of these kinds of things, if that's the only place that you're kind of getting your information, you're not going to remember a lot of stuff.
Right.
Now, I think it's really interesting the way you talk about how TV in general is never about the content.
Not just the different effects that it has on you doesn't necessarily depend on the content, but actual just the programming of the TV in the first place, the putting together of these things to show everybody doesn't even really have anything to do with the content.
What matters is what it looks like only.
Right.
Exactly.
There's some fantastic books over the ages on television.
One of the books that I talk about a lot in that article is Gerry Mander, who was a former advertising guy who's sort of like a reformed sinner.
He wrote this book way back in the 70s called Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television.
What he talks about is that really what these guys are caring about only, what good television is for them is anything that can hold your attention.
That's what they're caring about is these things called technical events, which means how many quick cuts and zoom-ins and rolls and animations and graphics, all of those kinds of things which are different than what the eye normally sees in natural life.
Those are the kinds of things that are going to hold your attention because just biologically we have something called the orienting response.
There's a lot written about this in a Scientific American article a few years back, but basically what this orienting response is biologically is just our instinctive reaction to anything different, anything we haven't seen before, anything sudden, we're going to watch that.
That's what they're trying to do.
They're on television all the time.
That's all they really care about is how they could use their programming, whatever it is.
If they could figure out a way, they really wouldn't mind so much if someone convinced them that they could show even an Occupy scene from Occupy Wall Street or any of these things, and they could produce it in a way to hold your attention.
They wouldn't care about whether it's two leftists.
If they could figure out a way, because in their own head, once we got your attention with the programming, then we shoved the advertising down you, which has even more of these orienting responses.
People can count them.
If you want to do that sometimes, just count how many of these so-called technical events, how many of these cuts and zooms and rollouts, all of these things that you don't ordinarily see in real life.
Count how many happen in a commercial.
There's going to be a lot more in a commercial than there are going to be in a program because the whole point of television is it's produced, it's made for advertising.
That's the point.
The point is to use these programs to get them interesting enough to get you to watch, but have these advertisings more interesting in a technical sense of these technical events, so that you'll much more likely remember some product.
That's all they care about, is that vaguely you'll walk away from your five hours worth of television a day, which is what most Americans are watching about right around five hours a day, and that you're not going to remember much except their products.
Then you're going to go to the supermarket, and you're going to see them on the shelves, and you're going to grab one off the shelf.
That's the whole point of television.
I was thinking about Neil Postman while I was reading your article in his book, Technopoly, where he talks about how in America, he says America is what he defines as a technopoly, and that is a society where culture has completely surrendered to technology, where anything that can be invented will be invented, and once it's cheap enough, it will be deployed everywhere, and there's just no stopping it.
So that goes for like, you know, it's in the news now that they're starting the test runs, but within just a few years, every sheriff's department is going to have a drone over every neighborhood, and we'll all be living like Fallujans, and there's just no stopping it, because remote-controlled planes are becoming that cheap.
Remote-controlled helicopters are becoming that cheap, so if it can be done, it will be done, that kind of thing.
But he also talks about how the technologies that we use, like even, for example, the way this radio show is put together, the way that you and I are connecting right now, determines to a great degree what anyone can get out of it, and so he says that opinion polls, for example, that's a technology for measuring what people think, right?
But of course, it's like the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.
It changes not just, you know, what people might answer if they'd come up with the idea to say something themselves, rather than being asked, but also it changes even what it means to have an opinion.
Are you for this, or against it, or whatever, rather than having an opinion, which used to be sort of like a river, an ongoing thing that you would always be in the act of opinioning.
It was like a verb, rather than a noun, that kind of thing.
That has all changed, just because of the technology that we use, and you talk about here, where the TV, in order to get people to pay attention to it, it has to shun, say, the kind of old school, long-term, back-and-forth conversation, like the one you and I are having now here on this radio show, in favor of very short clips and whatever, just to keep your eyeballs tuned long enough so they can sell you a soap during the break, right?
Just for their most base reasons only, they have to keep it all very short and punchy, and you won't even see anything like, I remember in the 80s, or my dad watching news shows, where stuffy old people would talk for an hour about something important.
You never see that kind of thing anymore.
Everything is put together like it's an MTV thing, even on the cable news or the Sunday morning news shows or anything.
There is a kind of pathetic desperation that goes on at all levels of our society, and even, I hate to say it, some of these places that I write for, or that you mentioned, Salon, and those last couple of folks who published that article, you could feel that the titles they often send them of articles are completely changed, you know, with the idea that if we can't manipulate somebody within a second to get sort of, with an article title, you know, if we can't immediately get them to hook them, then they're not going to pay any attention to it.
There's absolute no faith, no confidence that you could actually put even in an article title exactly what the article is about, and that somebody might be interested in off of that.
And so you see that, of course, with the other thing that you were talking about, I think is a hugely important area of culture in America, is this kind of technology worship, which I've talked a lot about.
And you see it, I know, again, a lot in my profession, the mental health profession, is really horrific, because what we know, for example, that almost any treatment, okay, any approach, any psychotherapy, almost anything works about as good as anything else.
We know this from years and years of research, basically, whether it's a pill, an antidepressant, they all work about the same as one another, whether it's psychotherapy, whether it's whatever, that they all work about 30% of the time, about 30, you know, and a lot of what it's about is faith or belief.
But the thing is, is that if you can sell yourself as a kind of technology, so if you can sell yourself as a biochemical technology, if you can sell yourself as electrical, electroshock technology, that in this culture, in this society, you get like extra points for that, that people have been so kind of brainwashed, they've been so sort of propagandized, socialized into the idea that technology is superior in anything, that in a lot of areas, it's very tragic.
And in some areas, it's comical, where people will buy into anything that can call itself technology versus something else, which is free, which is just as effective, that's not technological.
Well, you know, my problem is, I'm just as guilty as can be about this.
I just, I mean, really, the whole basis of this show is supposed to be me reading books and interviewing their authors.
And instead, it's devolved into me reading articles and interviewing the writers.
And, and then oftentimes, even now, it's me reading the headline and interviewing the guy that wrote the damn thing without even taking the time to read it or having the time to read it.
It's just something interesting I saw on my Facebook page, your article I actually read, by the way.
But a lot of times, that's the way it happens.
And you know what, I just don't read books at all.
I mean, even ones that are so important that I'm desperate to read, that I want so bad to read.
Oh, no.
But now, not only am I obsessed with Facebook, now I'm finally stopping hating Twitter and beginning to love it.
Oh, my God, I might as well take up drinking.
Well, there you go.
At least you're in touch with that.
And that's really what all these things are very similarly.
I mean, whether, you know, television, it really is not just a metaphor and addiction.
That's one of the, the articles that I referenced in there, the Scientific American article, is that really, it works.
A lot of these things, whether it's Twitter, or television, or a scotch or Valium, I mean, anything that really immediately reduces your level of tension, that takes you out of some state of, of conflict or tension and makes you get some kind of immediate state of relaxation, you're going to get addicted to.
And so I think one of the things is that, that's great, you know, and it's awful, my association over here, and I got like you talking, is like, let's all of us end our hypocrisy, at least about the fact that lots of Americans out there, we've got a whole dehumanizing, authoritarian, undemocratic kind of culture and society, at least for 99% of people out there, and who have no power over their life at all.
And they're desperately kind of craving something out there to take them out of some pain or take them some out of tension some more, whether it's scotch, or Prozac, or television, or whatever, or Twitter.
And it's like, boy, we're in trouble.
I mean, and if we're, at least we're aware of that, where we won't completely use up, lose our humanity.
It may not save us, but at least we'll sort of retain some of our humanity when we remember that kind of thing.
Right.
Yeah, it really is something if, well, I know I used to be a cab driver, and I drive around at night, you know, picking people up, and you just see every house, every apartment, everywhere you go, it's just that blue glow in every living room.
And you know what?
There's some cool stuff to watch on TV.
I like Breaking Bad, and South Park, and some other things.
There's a lot to hate and a lot to try to ignore, but, you know, the thing of it is, there actually really is a lot to learn from TV.
There's a lot of really cool stuff on TV, depending on how well you pick and choose, and, you know, how carefully you spend your time on it.
There's a lot of good beers as well.
I mean, I'm not anti-TV.
I've got to make that really clear.
But I'm understanding how I utilize it, that over the course of my life, the more miserable I am, especially, for example, being in graduate school and being surrounded by a bunch of kind of Shrinks-type people who are saying nothing useful for me in my career, the more in pain I am, the more I want to watch any escapist crap TV that there possibly can be.
And I've spent thousands of hours, my life, watching escapist crap TV.
And I don't need to take the edge off when things are going pretty good for me.
You know, I can watch, you know, I feel okay about watching a Bill Moyers or a Frontline or some of these other, you know, television shows where you're actually getting something out of it.
But overall, I think people have to kind of like, you know, keep in touch with what the general effect is, even if all you're doing is watching quality TV, what that's generally doing in terms of how pacifying you are.
And that's the bigger area that I started out this conversation with, with you, is like, let's take a look at all the spokes in the wheel that Americans are really just becoming so pacified that they're really hip to.
I mean, a lot of, you know, journalists out there that I talk to, they want to have this fantasy that if only Americans knew the truth about our military-industrial complex, for example, then certainly they'd get up, rise up, and do something about the fact that we're wasting all our money and just doing amazing, you know, just one destructive thing after another with this silly military-industrial complex.
But the polls show, for example, that 60-65% of people do oppose these wars, and they have for a long time.
So on a lot of big issues of the day, Americans do know enough about what's going on that truths alone aren't setting them free.
And that's a big thing that I want to kind of get across to journalists and writers, is like, we're going to have to do more than just hold on to this idea that if only we can break through the corporate media and understand that there's just a lot of other aspects of our culture and society that are overwhelming people to the point of just pacification, you know, and zombification and just kind of keeping them from doing anything.
And if you really want to have any kind of democracy in America, you're going to have to take a look at those big areas, television just being one of them, my own mental health profession being another one.
Right.
Well, you know, I think a lot of what that comes down to is, I mean, of course, people have jobs and families and very busy things, but then again, they make time for a lot of other things.
I think most of that comes down to, well, OK, maybe that's not the right way to say it.
I think there are a lot of people who are politically inclined, who would tend to be interested in these kinds of things, if only for their own entertainment.
Right.
Would rather listen to talk radio than then classic rock in the afternoon or whatever, while they're driving, that kind of thing.
But they don't participate.
They don't vote.
They don't get very interested because they know that they're powerless.
They know if they even pretend to imagine, OK, what if I decide I was going to go start taking part in my local Democratic Party and work towards some change?
You're going to laugh and stop before you even finish the thought.
You know, this country, the government of this country does not belong to us.
We don't have any say over.
So, indeed, why would someone waste their life, you know, swimming in all the details when it doesn't do them any good?
And they have a family and a job and all these other, you know, personal priorities that they have to keep up with.
Absolutely.
And I mean, that's really where I you know, where we all need to kind of get to is to understand that we're moving into one of these kind of, you know, what, what, you know, Bob Marley sang about and what a lot of folks who are in, psychologists, social scientists and in colonized societies understand is that you kind of move into one of these kind of states where a society of people becomes just totally kind of defeated.
They've given up hope because the, you know, whether it's, you know, being colonized.
In our case, we're not colonized by a foreign country.
We're colonized by this thing called a corporate state, this corporateocracy, which has left people kind of in a state of this kind of absolute helplessness, what Bob Marley sang about called mental slavery, right?
You know, emancipate yourself from mental slavery.
And I think that's one of the things that Americans, what I'm trying to kind of help Americans get to come out of denial over the fact that, you know, we are as a culture and as a society have moved into that kind of, you know, third, you know, whatever you want to call it, that kind of mentality of where people have just kind of given up.
And we have to kind of understand that, you know, that there are ways when people get to that point of total defeatism and totally feeling like there's absolutely hopeless to do anything against powers to be, that there's a different kind of strategy.
There's different kind of tactics if you want to help a society and culture move out of that zone.
But the truths are no longer going to just set people free.
That's just not going to be enough when you get to that state.
Yeah.
Well, and TV is such a big part of it, too.
I remember, and this is from back before the Internet, the great comedian Bill Hicks talked about how frustrating it was to him to watch TV news all the time.
I guess he's specifically talking about CNN and watching it 24 hours a day for days on end and where and how frustrating it is to never see his own voice of reason confirmed.
And he's and he got to where he's thinking and he knew that other people were going through this, too.
They start thinking they're the ones who are crazy, because apparently the consensus in the society is everybody agrees on this ridiculous nonsense, you know.
And so every once in a while to have someone say, oh, no, Bill, you're the one who's right and everybody else are the ones who are believing a bunch of nonsense.
It's like the greatest liberation of all, you know, to find out that actually, no, you're not that.
It's not you.
It's them.
It really is.
You know, and back then it was there were the three TV networks and that was it.
You know, your local paper reprinting the New York Times and that was it before the Internet where you could get your voice of reason confirmed a little bit.
But it seems like TV.
Well, we can all tell right when you watch cable news that none of those people are anything like us and they have no idea what the hell they're talking about.
I mean, they've got Andrea Mitchell, who's Alan Greenspan's wife, is hosting the daytime news about the financial catastrophe that we're in right now.
And they don't even have to disclose the conflict of interest.
They don't even know there is one.
They're in this isolated little bubble that the rest of American society looks at them and why pay them any attention at all, really?
All right.
You know, right.
And all these guys who are, you know, the evening news, if anybody stills watching the CBS, NBC, ABC, but all these guys are multimillionaires.
I mean, they're all completely disconnected just by the virtue of the fact that they're all in the top one tenth of one percent.
You know, all these Brian Williams characters and all that.
But here's the thing.
I think, you know, a lot of what people may want to pay attention to, if they can, it's just like pulling out of any kind of drug.
And again, I totally have compassion for people who are addicted to television as a way of kind of killing their pain, because I have done it myself.
But if you can go for a few days or go for a week or go for a month without it, interesting things start to happen.
One of the deeply problematic things about television and democracy is that television keeps people isolated.
So you get addicted to this thing.
You sit alone for the most part, five hours a day watching this box.
Or maybe you've got somebody else you're watching a little bit with, but you're really not talking much with them.
But in any case, you're not going out there and connecting with life.
You're not going out there meeting people.
You're not.
You're giving yourself no chance at all.
And that's exactly another great reason why television is a dream for an authoritarian society on many, many different levels.
But one is, it keeps people isolated.
So we have today in America, I mean, it's a horrifying statistic to me, but 25 percent of Americans do not have a single confidant in their life, not one person that they could talk about heavy things with.
That's 25 percent.
And a lot of that is this kind of vicious cycle.
The more that you have television to kill your pain or loneliness, the more that you just keep using it, and so that you stay lonely.
And so one of the really important core things is, for any kind of democratic movement, is you have people who are connected.
You cannot have any kind of solidarity politically if you don't have people who even have friends who don't even know one another.
So if you just stop watching, you're going to feel a sense of anxiety wave over you, but there's going to be a high likelihood that you're going to go, like, maybe I'll just get out of my house and just go to a coffee shop or go somewhere there and maybe strike up a conversation with somebody and we start talking about things.
And maybe you could actually make a friend.
So certain things like that are also really deeply problematic about television in terms of issues of just basic social isolation in America.
Right.
Well, it seems, too, like that's really the society ends up a lot of times.
That's the only thing that we have in common with each other.
You know, Bill Kristol and them are always saying we need a big war so that everyone will feel part of something.
But the default is that we all watch the same TV show.
And I remember my friend Darren telling me about, I guess, a friend of his mom's or something came over.
And when she was asking him who's his favorite on Dancing with the Stars, and he replied, well, nobody because I've never seen that because I'm not interested in that.
She didn't believe him.
And they actually turned into kind of a fight that she couldn't figure out why he was such a damn liar that he wouldn't admit who his favorite on the show was because her understanding was this is what makes us Americans together.
We all watch Dancing with the Stars alone in our houses together.
Well, it's a dream come true for some kind of, like I say, an Orwell Huxley kind of universe here where that is the kind of experience of togetherness and community.
Because with that kind of sense, you will never have people challenging illegitimate authorities.
I mean, if that's your state, and that's exactly is the state of American society, nobody challenging illegitimate authorities in any serious way.
And so, therefore, you have no democracy in American society.
There you go.
Well, I wish we could keep talking, but I got to go because I got Mel Frankberg coming up next.
But I want to thank you very much for your time, sir.
Sure.
Thank you, Scott.
All right, everybody.
That is Bruce E.
Levine.
You can find him at Alternet and at Salon.com.
Does TV actually brainwash Americans?
Is that Salon.com?
His most recent book is Get Up, Stand Up, Uniting Populists, Energizing the Defeated and Battling the Corporate Elite.
I like that.
He's a pressing clinical psychologist, often at odds with the mainstream of his profession.
And he's also written more books, including Surviving America's Depression Epidemic and Common Sense Rebellion.
He's written for Counterpunch and a lot of other left-wing sites that you're used to reading.
And his website is BruceLevine.net.
And we will be right back after this and that.
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