All right, y'all.
Welcome back to the show.
It's anti-war radio and our first guest on the show today is Jesse Trinidou.
He's a lawyer from Utah and his brother was murdered by federal police or prison officials, uh, in his prison cell in Oklahoma in a federal custody in the summer of 1995, apparently, uh, they tortured him to death, trying to get him to admit that he was somebody that they thought he was mistakenly, um, a guy named Richard Guthrie, and it was just mistaken identity, same red hair, same dragon tattoo, same, uh, color pickup truck, uh, same Mexico border crossing where, uh, Guthrie might've been expected to cross that kind of thing.
And, uh, unfortunate circumstances.
Then they tried to pretend it was a suicide, but because Jesse's a lawyer, uh, he knew better, uh, you know, how to prevent them from getting away with that basically, uh, prevented them from cremating his brother and got possession of the body, filed all the right lawsuits in all the right places.
And he has been fighting the federal government, um, on this issue for years and years now.
And then of course he ended up, as I just mentioned, uh, finding that his brother's murder was wrapped up in the story, the real story of the Oklahoma city bombing, uh, his brother was murdered because he was, I think this is a 99% anyway, that he was mistaken for this guy, Richard Guthrie, who, uh, very well may have been a John Doe.
Number two, you can read all about the case at Kenneth trinity.com.
Welcome back to the show, Jesse.
How are you?
Fine.
Thank you for having me on Scott.
It's very good to talk to you again.
Um, there's so many different things.
I guess I want to start with a mea culpa, which is I have Oklahoma city, uh, what the investigation missed and why it still matters by Andrew Gumbel and Roger G Charles, which, um, I guess is, uh, the culmination of all the JD caches and, and Roger Charles work on this thing.
Um, I don't know much about this guy Gumbel.
Um, I haven't read it yet.
I just have not been able to get to it.
Um, and I, I promise I'll try to do like a two hour definitive interview with Roger as soon as I, uh, am up to it.
But, uh, I assume that you've read this thing.
Am I right?
I haven't yet.
It's just barely, it hasn't been released yet.
Oh, I'm expecting a copy any day now, but I guess I'm lucky.
I got one a week early from the publisher here.
I'd assume that you'd already seen it.
Anyway, we know the story, basically a lot of this story, I'm sure it comes from documents that you got the judge to ring out of the FBI.
And I know it wasn't easy.
Uh, and I know you're still fighting them.
Uh, can we talk actually about, uh, you know, what's the status of your latest, uh, court, uh, uh, travails.
I know that they released some camera footage to you, but it was all conveniently missing the bombing and who else might've been in the truck with Timothy McVay, et cetera, like that.
And that, uh, I think, uh, the last time you email me on this subject, the judge was mad at them for continuing to jerk his chain about this.
Am I right?
Oh, you're right.
What happened, Scott, as I sued the FBI to obtain this, the film from the surveillance cameras of the buildings leading up to the, on the road leading up to the Murrow building where the bombing took place.
And also the cameras that were on the Murrow building that morning.
Um, the FBI produced videotapes from the cameras on the surrounding buildings, but between 8 54 AM and nine Oh two AM when the bomb went off, those cameras go blank at various times.
So it's as though when each time that truck passed a building on its way to the Murrow building, that camera goes blank for a few seconds.
And the FBI's explanation was the film was being recycled in all 26 cameras.
But the big fight now is over the surveillance cameras on the Murrow building.
And the FBI says they, that it cannot find those tapes.
Now bear in mind, this was the largest mass murder in the history of the United States up until that point in time.
Uh, the surveillance tapes and I was leaked documents that show that they actually recorded the bomb being delivered to the Murrow building that morning and shows the quote from the FBI report suspects.
And it says that the bomb detonated three minutes and six seconds after the suspects exited the vehicle.
Now you would have thought if you had a videotape showing you who committed this crime, that that would have been exhibit number one in Tim McVeigh's murder trial.
But no one's ever seen that tape, but the FBI.
And they told the judge that, uh, Judge Wattups here in the federal judge in Salt Lake City that they looked real, real hard.
They just can't find that tape.
Well, now going back years, you and I discussed this and all I ever had was, uh, the audio, not the video.
Um, but it's from the TV news channel for NBC news in Oklahoma city where they had multiple sources.
And I believe that one of their sources was a Los Angeles times reporter, um, who talked about, uh, and described in detail.
They even did their computer animation about what was described in detail as visible in some of this footage.
I don't know which tape it is that they haven't given you yet.
That supposedly shows McVeigh get out of the truck and shows John Doe to get out of the truck and that he is actually the one who goes to the back of the truck, opens it, apparently, uh, ignites the fuse or does sets the timer or does whatever he does, uh, before they take off and the bomb goes off.
So, um, they're lying because somebody from, uh, you know, sources that talk to channel four news in Oklahoma city has seen that footage.
This is, they were not making this up.
And I think Jayna Davis is wrong in a lot of her conclusions about Iraqis, this and that, but this part didn't seem to be farfetched at all.
That we saw the footage.
This is what was in it.
They said.
And it was, it's, uh, and I'm shocked, Scott, that you think the FBI would lie.
Uh, I'm shocked that you of all people would be shocked at this point, Jesse.
But, uh, some of us, we, we try to hang on to our innocence as long as we can.
My experience with the FBI is that they will lie even when the truth would serve the Bureau better.
Well, now have you been able to share any of that information with the judge and say, look, judge here, here are credible reports of people seeing what they say is missing that will come the next round.
And actually I've just recently discovered that how that the news media came to see those tapes is two FBI agents were attempting to sell a copy for $800,000 to the national media.
And they showed the, the press a preview copy of it before the purchase.
No, that's true.
That's what really happened.
And the, of course they were caught before the, the transaction could be completed, but my understanding that the reporters from the Los Angeles times did in fact see that tape and wrote about it, but then it disappeared.
And since I never was able to find the article, the LA times article, I only had the channel four news report about it, but in fact, I have it here, but it's seven minutes long.
Maybe I'll play it after your interview in the next segment after that.
For the judge has given the FBI, the FBI pleaded with the judge to give them more time to respond.
And he gave them until June 15th to come up with some explanation as to why they can't find that tape.
All right.
Now you sent me this link and he's going to be a guest later in the show.
JM Berger from Intel wire.com has written this piece for foreign policy.com.
Patriot games, how the FBI spent a decade hunting white supremacists and missed Timothy McVeigh.
And this is about the Pat con operation, which if I understand my own the, the history of what's going on here, right.
You were the one really broke the story about Pat con you had.
Uh, you told me before an informant that you've yet to name who told you, Hey, what you're looking for is called Pat con.
And that's how this broke in the first place.
Correct?
No, that's not quite true.
John, John Berger and I have known each other for years and we were just trying to, you know, they figure out how long, but John Berger was the guy who stumbled on the Pat con in the first place and Berger's work is incredible.
And he has another story that's going to be released, I guess, by the 25th of April, but, uh, well, he's reluctant to say that he's a very certain that this has anything to do with the Oklahoma bombing really in the foreign policy piece, but then I went and looked through his website and clicked on the tag.
Okay.
Bomb.
And, uh, boy, oh boy, he's got all kinds of stuff about Strassmayer and Mahon and the Elohim city group.
And, and he doesn't seem to have too much doubt.
Hell he's breaking stories.
Got the documents.
Uh, I'm sorry.
The break's coming up.
We'll be right back.
Everybody with Jesse Trenadue right after this.
All right, y'all.
Welcome back.
It's anti-war radio.
I'm Scott Warren.
I'm talking with Jesse Trenadue, a lawyer perpetually suing the FBI for documents.
Uh, getting to the heart of the matter, who killed his brother and why.
And speaking of which, uh, tell us Jesse, please, if you could, uh, what makes you so sure that the reason your brother Kenneth was murdered was because they thought he was Richard Guthrie and either they were trying to get him to admit it, or they were just trying to kill John Doe too, or was Guthrie John Doe too?
Please explain.
Well, I, it goes back 17 years.
I've been in this fight that about six months after his death, my brother's death, I received a phone call and this was back before caller ID.
And I didn't know who called.
They wouldn't leave their name.
And they just simply said they wanted to be, to know that my brother had been murdered, uh, by the FBI, that it was an interrogation that went wrong, that he was suspected of being a member of this group that was robbing banks to get money to fund the tax on the federal government.
Um, I didn't pay much attention to it.
I just thought it was some crank call.
And then, and I think it was June and July of 1996.
I remember reading a story in the Los Angeles times about Richard Lee Guthrie.
It didn't have a photograph of Guthrie.
It just simply was a story about him and how he had been found hanging in his cell while in federal custody.
And it was, he supposedly committed suicide the day before he was going to give an interview to the Los Angeles times, which Guthrie said would blow the lid off the Oklahoma city bombing.
Well, that again, I didn't pay much attention to that.
And then years later, shortly before he was executed, I received a message from Tim McVeigh.
He told me that when he saw my brother's picture and heard what happened to him, he wanted me to know that it was his belief that they had, he had been killed by the FBI because they mistook him for Richard Lee Guthrie.
And then I came into contact with J.D. Cash, who told me that the largest manhunt in American history was taking place at the time my brother was murdered.
It was for John Doe too, and the description was white male, 175, 180 pounds, five foot eight, five foot nine, powerful upper body build, believed to be in Canada or Mexico, driving mid 1980s, Chevrolet pickup truck, dragon tattoo, left forearm, uh, that description matched my brother and it matched Richard Lee Guthrie.
Uh, so there's no doubt in my mind that he was murdered by the FBI.
And there's no doubt in my mind.
It was because they suspected him of being John Doe too.
And, and there's no doubt in my mind that there are a number of John Doe twos that they was seen with many people and the descriptions of John Doe too vary, but the one that resulted in my brother's death was Richard Lee Guthrie.
And back on John Berger, whose I understand is going to be on your show today, I would urge your audience to pay particular attention to what John has to say.
Now, John, I have a lot of respect for John Berger.
He is a serious investigative journalist.
He's not going to say something until he's got the proof he needs to back it up.
I can go further than John can.
I think John will tell you that he has, and I, I have information that PatCon was designed by the FBI to infiltrate and incite the right wing, both militia and Christian right, uh, to, to acts of violence.
Uh, Ruby Ridge was a PatCon operation.
Waco was a PatCon operation.
The fellow who came forward with all this information told me that he suspects that Oklahoma city was, but he can't swear to it because he wasn't involved in Oklahoma city.
Well, now all the people he worked with were at Oklahoma city, and this was a PatCon undercover operative had been an undercover operative for the FBI for almost 10 years.
But are you saying, are you saying it was a provocateur operation all along then?
It appears to have been.
So in other words, Ruby Ridge, wasn't just this catastrophe.
It was actually made to provoke the radical right and make them worse.
That's what this, this former undercover operative said, he said in the hindsight, unlike most, most undercover people, they're usually caught committing some kind of a crime and the FBI forces them to be an informant or an operative to avoid prosecution.
This is a person who was not charged with any crimes who felt that these extreme groups were dangerous.
And he thought his job was to monitor them.
But when he came forward to see me, he said, after all these years, looking back on it, he sees that the real objective was to incite them.
And he wants very much to have that story told.
One incitement guy's name is, uh, Andre Strassmayer, right?
That's the key to this whole thing is here was a guy who my best understanding this whole time anyway, I thought was he wasn't a Nazi.
He was just pretending to be a Nazi because he worked for the U.S. government.
And that brings me around to Roger Charles's book.
It's my understanding that Roger has been able to link Strassmayer to the FBI.
In the book, I haven't read the book, but that would be huge if Strassmayer was, in fact, the links have always been, you know, sort of circumstantial and obvious, but tenuous at the same time has been our problem all along.
Right.
Apparently.
But he has the it's no longer circumstantial.
It's my understanding from Roger's book that he's had people within the government come forward and confirm that fact.
Now, I'm not sure if this is the very best use of our time, but I kind of want to ask you about what you think of the media here, where, you know, Ambrose Evans Pritchard wrote about Dennis Mahon and Andre Strassmayer mentioned the heroic J.D. Cash, now deceased from the McCurtain County Gazette there in Oklahoma, who really did all the yeoman's work on all of this stuff.
And even the New American, the John Birch Society's magazine, they have a guy named Bill Jasper, who's done a lot of good reporting on this over the years.
And they've basically been right all along.
It's looking like more and more truth comes out, more and more.
It looks like Dennis Mahon and Andre Strassmayer and all the guys at Elohim City, just like Carol Howe, the ATF informant, said.
And this narrative that's 15 years old, that we've really known about this, you know, within a couple of years, I think the Carol Moore story, Carol, pardon me, Carol Howe story started coming out in 1996, right?
It was.
There's an explanation for that, Scott.
One of the things I came across in my FOIA suits is the FBI has a program, and I may have sent you this, and if I haven't, I'll send it to you, of recruiting top level informants within the mainstream media to kill stories.
And this is something I think Roger will probably talk to you about when you, if he ever comes on your show.
But they have informants highly placed within the mainstream media who serve two purposes.
They are to.
Lots of times when a story is breaking, a source will go to the media, not to the FBI.
The objective of having these informants at the highest level of the media is to have them turn over the names of the sources to the FBI.
And the second purpose is to stop or defuse stories that are very critical of the FBI.
They even have protocols for recruiting and handling high level media informants.
My next FOIA suit is I've asked them for the protocols they have for recruiting and and placing informants within the media, informants within the offices of senators and congressmen, informants within other federal agencies.
And I suspect and I haven't seen this one yet, informants within the judiciary.
Well, and, you know, this is one of the reasons I've always thought it's one of the reasons I've always thought that the Oklahoma City story was so important, because think of all the other things that got to be true.
If they covered up who all was involved in this because of the ties to Pat Con, whether they really wanted the bombing to happen or whether, you know, it was just embarrassing links or whatever, like they like to say, I'm inclined to believe the worst.
But anyway, and I haven't read the book yet.
We'll see.
But they never held a single hearing in Congress.
They never had a single problem while they had a slight problem with Dan Rather for a day.
Other than that, they never had a single problem with and young people, you might not understand this, but it used to be that Rather, Jennings and Brokaw, the three nightly newscasters, what they say goes and they're not contradicting each other on something, then it's true.
And if they're not covering it, it's not important.
And when the FBI said, hey, there's no John Doe, too, there's nothing to see here.
Everybody knows this one guy did it.
His only co-conspirator was two states away at the time.
Every all of the dozens of witnesses who saw him with other people are all stupid or lying or confused.
And just forget it.
They got away with that.
Congress never held a single hearing on the biggest crime ever, at least, you know, since second wounded knee or something.
I mean, this is the the fact that our government and our media are this badly in cahoots that, you know, the closest you could get to accountability in Congress is Dana Rohrabacher going after this lie that Saddam Hussein did it, you know, but just trying to uncover anything about the thing.
It's it's insane, actually.
Could you do me a favor and stay one more segment?
I would love to.
Good, because I'm sorry I'm talking too much on your interview.
I want to ask you some more very important things.
It's Jesse Trinidou.
He, through the worst circumstances, found himself involved in finding out the truth about the Oklahoma City bombing.
And we'll be back with more after this long break.
All right, y'all, welcome back to the show.
It's anti-war radio.
I'm Scott Horton.
And I'm talking with Jesse Trinidou.
I appreciate you staying over the break with us here.
Now, I mentioned real quick there that they had a problem with Dan Rather for a day, and that was when he broke the story that the FBI had withheld a bunch of documents from the defense on the eve of Timothy McVeigh's execution and got his execution delayed for about a month.
And one of the FBI agents that Dan Rather talked to in the special that he did, this is in the spring or very early summer of 2001, was an FBI agent named Rick O'Hada, who I interviewed on my radio show back in 2003.
Never could ever get a hold of him after that.
But he told me that he investigated Elohim City in this entire angle.
And that's how he knew that the prosecution wasn't turning everything they had over to the defense is because the stuff, the work that he had done on the Oklahoma bombing case had not been turned over to the defense.
And then he had other FBI agents saying, yeah, me either, that kind of thing.
So that was the one problem they have with Dan Rather.
But that was way after the fact.
And otherwise, if the media consensus, I guess the government consensus is that you don't need to worry about whether there was more to this story or not until 2012.
Michael Isikoff will let you know.
And then he'll pretend like he's the first person ever to report that, hey, maybe there's something to this former grand dragon of the Klan being in on this thing.
Well, again, I think it goes to the control, and I sent you some documents that I obtained from the FBI that the control the FBI has over the media by way of informants placed, highly placed informants within the mainstream media.
Yeah, and well, and that's the kind of thing, I guess, that people expect to be true, but they don't see the proof very often.
And I'm sad to say, I don't see it.
It has not arrived in my email box.
Sure, you sent to the right, Scott Horton.
People make that mistake sometimes.
Hold on a second.
Let me pull up my I'm fairly sure I did.
You know, more important is Dan Burton, the House Government Oversight Reform Committee, whatever he was, you know, after Clinton on every little thing that didn't matter, but on none of the big stuff, Newt Gingrich, current presidential candidate, former speaker of the House of Representatives.
Wouldn't it be his responsibility to have on the agenda some hearings on the Oklahoma bombing and how this happened in the United States without the ATF and the FBI knowing something was going on and that no one in the media really held them responsible at all?
In fact, Gerald Posner, who is a ridiculous plagiarist and is not welcome in even the worst of mainstream journalistic circles anymore.
He wrote a thing.
In fact, he sent me the link to this thing.
He says that when he worked for The New Yorker back in the mid 90s, he was assigned to look into the possibility of extra people in the Oklahoma bombing plot by Tina Brown.
Now, who was the editor of The New Yorker then, who's now the editor of Newsweek and The Daily Beast.
And he wrote a 9000 word story, which included all of these Nazis and bank robbers in Elohim City and Dennis Mahon and the rest of it.
And apparently and in fact, some excerpts have run at The Daily Beast in the last couple of years.
But anyway, there was an entire 9000 word piece that she spiked.
Tina Brown refused to allow that article to run in The New Yorker.
And it was back in 95, maybe 96.
It was ready or something like that.
But, you know, contemporary with the whole thing, she spiked it.
And and you know what, it's so unforgivable because at the time of the trials, for example, it was so obvious for anyone keeping up with the trials just how hard the prosecution and the judge were conspiring, just how obvious it was that they were conspiring together to exclude any evidence that could lead any direction other than Timothy McVeigh.
And they went so far as entrapping.
Basically, they they carol how the ATF informant had been told, hey, keep Nazi literature around your house and things like that so that you fit the part of the Nazi informant that you're playing.
And then they came and arrested her and charged her with terrorism and used as proof that she had Nazi literature in her house and a length of pipe in her garage, which, of course, was a, you know, could be a pipe bomb one day or whatever.
And they indicted her and they were prosecuting her, the ATF informant on terrorism charges just to keep her from being able to testify at the McVeigh trial.
It's not like no one in Congress or no one at 2020 or 60 Minutes could see what was going on here.
And Judge Mache, you know, ruling in favor of the prosecutors on every objection.
You know, there's just no excuse for people pretending like, you know, there was reason to believe all along that the government had it right when they told us that it was just McVeigh and Nichols.
You know, it's unforgivable really in a so-called free society.
It's ridiculous.
Well, I would just urge your audience to pay particular attention to what John Berger has to say.
He will eventually, it's my belief, link Oklahoma City to Pat Con.
He's done an amazing amount of work on on Pat Con over the years.
And I thought his first story was very powerful.
It's my understanding it'll be a much larger, more detailed story coming out within the week on Pat Con.
Pat Con is where all the bodies are buried.
Pat Con is the very serious threat to the Department of Justice if that story ever becomes mainstream.
Well, and the point being that, you know, even excluding Strassmayer, there were so many people who knew or very likely knew about the plot or in on the plot to one degree or another who were flip states witnesses or undercover informants or, you know, of course, in the case of Strassmayer, now you're talking about, you know, an agent provocateur outright.
But, you know, some of these guys, let's let's give the DOJ the benefit of the doubt, say they flipped a guy, turned him state's witness against his neo-Nazi buddies.
But really, he went ahead and did what he wanted anyway.
Right.
That could have happened that that that kind of thing, if we wanted to be very friendly to them, that kind of thing could be a motivation for a cover up that just, you know, there are links to Pat Con.
In fact, the way Berger's article is written, I think, in foreign policy is that they could have should have known they missed McVeigh.
They were doing all this stuff, but missed McVeigh.
It seems to me it's more like they were doing all this stuff and it included knowing McVeigh and being in on that thing.
McVeigh and Strassmayer are tied at the hip in this, and I think that's something that John Berger will eventually come out and say.
If he's seen the information I have, I am confident that Berger's going to bring this whole story out eventually.
Now, when you sued over your I'm sorry, it's not like I had time to review all this, but my memory says that you won some kind of wrongful death suit against the government for the death of your brother, right?
Well, we won a suit, but it wasn't wrongful death.
They destroyed so much evidence and there was so much perjury that the court didn't find that my brother was murdered, but did find that the government had intentionally set out to harm me and my family.
So the judgment was for the intentional infliction of harm upon me and my family.
But you never had an opportunity to try to get the judge to force people working at that prison in 1995 to come and testify about what they know about it.
Yes.
I mean, but the point is, this thing was so managed by the Department of Justice.
I mean, all the crime scene photographs disappeared, the negatives of the crime scene photographs disappear, the logbook showing who would have had access to my brother disappeared, or if they didn't disappear, the pages were missing.
I mean, this was run on the cover for my brother's murder was run out of main justice at the highest level.
Right.
Eric Holder, now the attorney general of the United States.
His job was to keep the lid on it.
Yeah.
And we've seen those documents.
You can find them for sure at Intel Wire.
And I have my own stash of trying to do files, PDF files that maybe I'll post a link up on my Facebook page where people can read about how Eric Holder is on his way over to Capitol Hill back when he was the deputy assistant attorney general for covering up people, whatever over there.
He's on his way over to Capitol Hill to make sure that they don't hold hearings on the death of Kenneth Trinidad.
It was his job.
Amazing.
Well, no wonder you got the job as attorney general, he was so effective at that.
And now there's a clip I don't have it on me, but there's a clip of Orrin Hatch talking about your brother's death in a way like he wanted to get to the bottom of it before he was told not to.
I think it's even from Fox News.
Right.
Right.
He said it was a murder and a cover up.
And then when it comes time for actually doing it, he never heard of you, huh?
No.
All right.
Well, thanks so much again for coming on the show and talking with us.
I'll get Roger Charles on as soon as I can.
We'll get to the bottom of this thing once for all.
And do do have your audience and I'd urge your audience to listen attentively to what John Berger has to say.
And I'll do my best to question thoroughly.
I'll even try to reread some of this thing during the break.
I did show today and see if I can do the best job I can in interviewing him on the subject.
And I did send you the links to the to the moles that.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
I just I don't know what's going on.
It's probably on my end.
I have problems with my Thunderbird from time to time, but I still haven't gotten the document.
The link.
I would urge you to post them up for your readers.
I sent you to the second one.
We'll have the story.
A few stories have been written about it.
Oh, here we go.
I just got it now.
ABC Mall.
So, yeah, that'll get posted for sure.
The second one is the one you want to post.
It'll have everything in it.
OK, email.
OK, right on.
Well, thanks very much, Jesse.
Appreciate it.
Thank you for having me on, everybody.
That is Jesse C.
Trinidou, attorney at law.
And brother of Kenneth Trinidou can read all about his story at Kenneth Trinidou dot com.
And as I said in the third hour, we'll be talking with J.M. Berger, the journalist who discovered Pat Con, the FBI program to get the radical right to do something horrible in the 1990s.
We'll be right back.
