All right, so welcome back to the show It's anti-war radio Our guest is Jeremiah Golka.
He formerly was a lawyer in the Bush Department of Justice and He wrote this monograph for the Rand Corporation back in 2009 called the MEK in Iraq the mujahideen II caulk in Iraq a Policy conundrum and then we talked about his piece a couple weeks ago here on the show that he wrote over at Glenn Greenwald's blog Two pieces actually at Glenn Greenwald's blog about the MEK and about the American politicians who work with them So welcome to show Jeremiah.
How are you doing?
I'm well.
Thanks so much for having me Well, I'm very happy to have you here.
I appreciate you joining us today There's so much to go over here, I guess could we start with you know The ancient history you get into that in one of your articles here at salon.com.
It's a Glenn Greenwald's blog Where exactly the MEK comes from back in what the mid-70s?
Yeah, they started in 1965.
It was founded by a group of graduate students at the University of Tehran who wanted to Take action to oppose the Shah and his government which they saw as a threat to their own country Which they saw as a puppet of the United States, and of course the u.s Did you know I had do a coup and install the Shah so they weren't wrong on that?
The Shah's government got wind of their intent and suppressed the young group fairly hard all of its leaders went into prison, but the group got a fair amount of support over the years and One of the leaders survived prison name was Massoud Rajavi and As the Iranian Revolution got closer and it started to happen the MEK was one of many groups to oppose the Shah and In the wake of the revolution this group which now had a fair amount of support I hope to participate in the new government Massoud Rajavi intended to run for president.
There were several candidates were hoping to run for the Marjavis, which was is it's the Parliament and in the Iranian government but perhaps in response to the kind of strength of the MEK's support Ayatollah Khomeini suppressed the group kept them out of the running for office and In response to that the MEK turned its aim on Khomeini's regime they got violent and did some attacks against the regime which responded by Brutally suppressing the MEK and since then there's been a history of brutal suppression of the group by the regime and the leaders Did a self-exile to well protect themselves since they left for Paris in 1981 They at this point turn their attentions to where the leaders turn their attentions to Courting Western public opinion at this time, you know, it's the revolution.
It's after the the embassy hostage crisis and The new government of Iran didn't have a lot of fans in Western Europe or in the United States and it the group starts promoting itself as a potential replacer for for the Iranian government and They create something called the National Council resistance of Iran NCRI which is its political arm Meanwhile the MEK members who are in Iran went underground To well, you know protect themselves because the government was suppressing them now in 1986 the MEK Does a deal with Saddam Hussein who had instigated the Iran-Iraq war, which was an absolute catastrophe for Iran and Under this agreement the MEK moved to Iraq where Saddam provides them with Camps several camps that are near the Iranian border.
I provide them with weapons Munitions and money in exchange for which the MEK will participate in military incursions into Iraq into Iran to provide intelligence provide interrogation and translation on Iranian POWs Now this turns out to be the probably the biggest mistakes the MEK has ever made because it didn't work out They were hoping Saddam was going to provide the military support to put The MEK into power in Iran.
It didn't happen and in the process Whatever support the MEK had in Iran was wiped out because now, you know, this group has been You know viewed as a traitor for having lined up with the aggressor in that terrible war And participating interrogating and killing Iranian soldiers So now they the group is out in the desert in Iraq with not a lot of friends in Iran It's keeping up its its violent attacks against government Iranian government officials in Iran and even abroad even in the US and in Europe and The leader Massoud he he start he starts turning the group into a cult of personality He in 1985 before they went to Iraq.
He Arranged a divorce between one of the one of his leader colleagues and his that gentleman's wife and Massoud then marries this woman so now Massoud Rajavi and Miriam Rajavi become the co-leaders of this group and They start turning it into a cult group and there of course the MEK Vigorously denies this because no one wants to be called a cult doesn't sound good But the evidence I saw when I was at their incorporation and I was in Iraq conducting research for this and the interviews I did with former members and the evidence the Human Rights Watch found in a report they did shows that you have a lot of the types of behaviors that are viewed as cultic such as Sexual control and in this case a mandatory celibacy mandatory divorce They have gender segregation emotional isolation Which means that the groups are the members of the MEK were?
Separated from family internally after the mandatory divorce Their children were sent off the homes in Europe, so they're no almost no kids there Their families back in Iran were told that they were had died or been killed by the Iranian government Then you also had limited access to media MEK provided its own media tour to its people and banned other sources There was limitations on food sleep deprivation and mandatory work project Which were done to promote the the ideology of the group and pardon me this last this litany of?
The cult-like behavior this is stuff that you witnessed yourself when you went there to investigate for the Pentagon's think-tank the RAND Corporation is that correct?
Well what I thought bits and I most of the details I learned from Talking to former members of the MEK who were in a little facility that was next door to the MEK facility Which is called Camp Ashraf?in Iraq what I saw directly was We went in on an unannounced visit One one night to Camp Ashraf and saw the people in there Well, we'll go ahead and go to break and we'll let you elaborate back on that when we get back and then of course we'll also have to talk about all of the very powerful lawyers and politicians and Former generals who are shilling for this communist terrorist cult.
It's a Jeremiah Gulka From the RAND Corporation.
We'll be right back after this All right y'all welcome back to the show it's anti-war radio I'm Scott Horton, and I'm talking with Jeremiah Gulka He used to work for the Bush DOJ then went to Study the MEK cult at the RAND Corporation and by the way I was mentioning just a minute ago about how our friend Phil Giraldi former CIA counterterrorism officer Wrote me that email saying oh, don't you believe the hype about Hezbollah sleeper cells all over America?
Well Phil tells the story that when he went through counterterrorism training at CIA that you know I don't know if it was out at you know the farm or whatever someplace They build a mock-up maybe on a military base or something they build a mock-up of a terrorist situation Here's what happens if a terrorist tries to kill you you know so you can practice Well, they're reenacting an MEK attack on Americans in Iran in the 1970s And you know a truck bombing can happen to you in the blink of an eye so be careful Here's your scenario.
That was how they trained Phil to protect himself from terrorists in the first place using the MEK as a model anyway, so We know them now as a front for the US Department of Defense Which apparently hired you to go study them and for the Mossad now lately?
The Media would have it that the Mujahideen he called simply works for the Israelis assassinating people inside Iran for example, but just so happens.
It was my wife that back in 2006 Reported Larissa Alexandrovna who reported that Cheney and Rumsfeld were using the MEK inside Iran She did not say bombings because I don't think she had sources sourcing on that but at least for collecting intelligence Working for the DOD even if the CIA didn't want to mess with them, which I don't know how clear that is But now lately they're accused of being the sock puppets of the Israeli Mossad assassinating scientists as a CIA former CIA officer Robert Behr said on MSNBC well, they're killing people that couldn't possibly actually you know degrade their nuclear program at all, but they could provoke Retaliation against the United States.
This is Israel trying to bait the Iranians into attacking the Americans to get us into a war But anyway, I guess we can get to that in a minute if you want to comment on that now go ahead or on any of that Jeremiah, but where we left off at the break you were talking about what you actually learned firsthand in observing any MEK cult and then of course also on what you learned from interviewing former members of the cult Sure So what I what I saw was during a night visit to Camp Ashraf.
We saw Members of the group who are where they're all of drab uniforms looks very martial standing guard to keep its members from actually trying to escape if there was a Camp has several Little iron curtain, I guess exactly, they have little fences around the housing units and There was a significant number of guards to prevent the MEK members from running to the local nearby Neighboring u.s.
Facility.
In fact, they one point asked the Americans for more concertina wire So they could actually make it harder for MEK members to escape During the day I saw some of an organized sort of dog-and-pony show type tour and having heard the onion News network Advertisement at the break there was you know, particularly sort of absurd and funny moment I would during this where we walked into the library I can't bash raft would have a lovely small library, but it was locked and We were taken in because it had was supposed to have been unlocked for the tour But it was it was locked and after we were there for about 10 minutes people who are supposed to Look like they were just browsing the shelves arrived although obviously the place was locked and we also went to a Parthead, you know where they had failed to turn on the waterfall until after we arrived Similarly, they failed to turn the music on at the cemetery until after we were there Kind of makes you wonder whether maybe some of the cult leaders were kind of dragging ass on following their instructions Just to make that point to you, you know here they are when they show up at the library They're all right in the middle of looking at something even though the place was empty a second ago All right.
Now, I'm sorry to interrupt good Okay, that's what I want to say about the what I saw firsthand a lot of the specific details I heard from former members because you know as with most You know serious cults there are lots of things that will not be shown except to those who have been initiated for instance, they have these things called sessions where member different quantities of the members have to come together for a meeting in which the members will be forced to Disclose the sexual thoughts that they've had about Anyone or other members and if when they disclose them there be rated they're not supposed to have those thoughts But of course, they're human.
And so if they deny having the sexual thoughts, they're also be rated for obviously lying so just you know, that's just a particular example of the unpleasantness of The cult aspects of the MEK Well, I want to ask about Camp Ashraf, but more important I guess is all the stuff already sort of brought up all over Your interview I should let you have a chance to address Reporting not just Larissa but others reporting about the MEK working for the United States over the last few years and then recent reports that they are Working for the Israeli Mossad and behind the assassinations of nuclear scientists in Iran Well, I think the type of information I have is also from the public record it sounds like similar information you have what I saw as sort of a Characteristic is that the MEK is an opportunistic organization and it has tried to Work with the US in various ways at Camp Ashraf there were regular meetings between MEK leadership and US military officials and I sat in on at least one of these meetings where it was basically a constant flow of news of how awful the Iranian regime is and Offers to help offers to help do something against the Iranian regime The MEK constantly offers itself up to the source of intelligence It's done this since before the Iraq War, but certainly throughout and I spoke with some American intelligence officials and off military officers who would you know be in Baghdad and have MEK members show up and start offering various bits of intelligence on on what was going on Iran or Iranian activities within Iraq and So, yes, they've they've been trying to provide intelligence for a long time The quality of that intelligence the perceptions of the quality of that intelligence varies Throughout the government it did during the Bush administration Some people seem to be somewhat predisposed to Find them to be more useful if they happen to be pretty more predisposed towards Wanting to invade Iran as you'll recall in 2003 there was a Bit of a an on to Tehran attitude among some of the strong pro-iraq war hawks And you know it within the government.
You definitely heard it among officials such as Cheney and Rumsfeld a some of the on to Tehran attitudes and in at least at least once Rumsfeld said publicly that they would use the MEK as a Resource if they were to invade Iran at least has bullet catchers.
So There's been this desire to cooperate.
You know, I'll also the MEK.
I presume wants to cooperate as a sort of a negotiating Opposition to get off of the foreign terrorist organization list, but that's a key bit of the history that I hadn't gotten to earlier They were added to the FTO list in 1997 and the factual predicate for that was the assassination of several Americans in Tehran during the time of the Shah the MEK has been working hard to get off of the terrorist list for years and the Paying of several officials prominent American ex-officials to give speeches on the group's behalf has as a The sort of primary purpose of that is for them to make bold statements that MEK needs to be removed from the list All right.
So we're talking with Jeremiah Gulka.
He worked in the Bush Justice Department and then went to work for the Rand Corporation where he was one of the authors of this 2009 monograph about the mujahideen e calk in Camp Ashraf Iraq and we'll be right back after this All right, y'all welcome back to the show Santa war radio.
I'm Scott Horton and I'm talking with Jeremiah Gulka used to work in the Bush DOJ then for the Rand Corporation Wrote this 2009 monograph the mujahideen e calk in Iraq a policy conundrum and He has told the story of their history a communist group that helped with the revolution against the Shah and for Khomeini and then they were Marginalized by Khomeini and then they fled to Iraq and they fought on Saddam's side in the Iran-Iraq war which is why all the Iranian people love them so much and want them to come and be their new government and How then they've been working for the US and or Israel In the last few years since the 2003 invasion anyway, they were during the occupation protected by the Americans now their fate is in jeopardy and and Before we get to all the American politicians here.
I wanted to try to get to the motive behind What's the big deal about the terrorist list here?
And if I understand it, right Jeremiah Their problem the mujahideen e calks problem in Iraq is that they want to be able to stay Group and be able to leave Iraq and go.
I don't know where Europe or even heaven forfend America and stay together as their cult group, whereas as long as they are on the Terrorist list then they won't be allowed to leave Iraq as a group They'll basically be spread to the wind set free More or less by the Maliki government and but spread to the wind To you know land wherever they can as individuals and that is what my room or Javi does doesn't want at all costs In fact, she was even kind of threatening you know to provoke a major conflict Over whether her people would leave Camp Ashraf Immediately or not from Paris, of course from the safety of Paris France.
Is that about right?
Or could you correct me where I'm off the story?
Almost right and I it is indeed what they're the MEK is saying More or less, but it doesn't quite work out that way So the MEK wants to be off of the foreign terrorist organization list for a bunch of reasons one the real important reason is money and fundraising that their assets are frozen and it becomes a Federal crime for them to raise money or for people to give money to them as material support of terrorism So that that's a big deal in terms of the other countries accepting the MEK Well being on the FTO list probably matters in part for that where any country is going to want to take in a group that is on the American FTO list.
That's the question but taking them off the FTO list.
Will that make a difference?
Well, first of all, it won't actually help them come into America because once you're off of the list The people are no longer barred from Coming to the United States except if they have while they were a member of an FTO did they receive what's called military type training and most of them did or appear to have done so as you can see from the promotional materials of Loads of the different folks driving tanks around marching military formation Using the various types of military material that Saddam gave them.
So I there's a at least a Significant question about how many of them could come into the United States, even if they were taken off of the FTO list Now you definitely hit on a good point Which is that the MEK wants to stay together as a group?
And of course it does if they are a cult group and it wants to maintain its members and its numbers no country has raised a hand to say we want to bring in 3,400 members of this cult group and It's pretty unlikely that any are going to now there is a real issue here The only place where most of them can go is Iran because they're Iranian citizens Now it's actually a crime to be a member of the MEK in Iran So you have to break down and ask who could actually go to Iran?the only way for anyone to go to Iran would be if they Cut their ties with the MEK now a couple hundred former members have returned to Iran Peers that they have been treated just fine, but they went back cutting ties with the MEK So the MEK has no interest in having anyone go back to Iran because it means losing members So they are promoting the notion that anyone to go back to Iran will immediately be very persecuted So what the United States is doing and back when I was at RAND the report I wrote recommended a process that the US is now more or less adopted in concert with Iraq and With the United Nations High Commission for refugees, which is to go through an individualized process For each person to find out what is their situation?are they interested in going back to Iran and do they face a Reasonable Serious threat of persecution if they went back to Iran And this is a fundamental principle in international law called it's a French word called non refoulement, which means You can't be basically means you can't be sent somewhere where you have a significant threat of being persecuted So this process has begun a few hundred people from the MEK have gone to the former Camp Liberty which is in Baghdad and their process of Processing individuals has begun It's been a long time process to actually get the MEK to agree to this and as Secretary Clinton said in Congress and as their court filings say the The State Department is will Review the FTO status Kind of in the light of whether or not they cooperate.
So, you know, does that mean it'll actually get off the list?unknown, but you know, this is a Negotiating point of view that you know, I mean they have to cooperate if they want a chance getting taken off Alright now I Wanted to highlight this important story from the National Iranian American Council Mujahideen supporters envision tit-for-tat campaign against Iran and it's Lieutenant General Thomas McInerney Pretty much openly saying yeah, we want them D listed from the officially designated list of terrorist organizations so that we can use them as terrorists Against the Iranians and just I mean he knows it's the age of YouTube and tree to Parsi But and still he goes on anyway, so there we have that but now I'm sorry, because we only have a couple of minutes here, but I was wondering if you could address the money who is paying the Mujahideen to pay Giuliani Fran Townsend generals Hayden and Clark and Louie free the former head of the FBI and all of these people to shill for this communist terrorist cult Where are they getting their money?
Is it from the Mossad or is it from the CIA or somebody else?
Well, this is this is a big question and that's where the Treasury Department has instigated an investigation And they've spent subpoenas to the people you mentioned and several more to see where that money is coming from You know is it coming from any case sources who are the donors are are there make people making donations Or private citizens who are thereby making?effectively contributions that count as material support of terrorism under the statute or what and so It's an open question for now.
It'll be interesting to see how How this investigation proceeds and to see who they then follow up with on it in terms of any potential criminal prosecutions against Anyone be it donors or recipients of that money or what?
But that's definitely on people's minds now, but it is interesting to see that the Treasury Department Did it start this investigation sending subpoenas to these officials?which certainly looks like an effort to Do some curtailing of what the President Obama called the loose talk of war the folks were going out there to promote the MEK as removal from the FTO list this is also in the context of how we deal with Iran and as I said in my salon piece a lot of officials who are coming out in favor of the MEK have strong ties into the Military industrial complex and they expand to benefit handsomely from any type of activity with Iran even just The threat but certainly more from a bombing and you certainly get more from actual invasion Well, I'm trying to remember which one was But well anyway, it's too late now I guess I was going to mention that Christian Science Monitor piece anyway by Scott Peterson from about a year ago or so Where he really talks about how much these people are getting paid and that kind of thing interesting footnote anyway But thank you very much for your time Jeremiah.
I appreciate it All right, everybody that's Jeremiah Gulka check him out at Glenn Greenwald's blog salon.com/opinion/Greenwald MEK and its material supporters in Washington and his monograph on the MEK for Rand
