All right y'all, welcome back to the show.
It's anti-war radio.
I'm Scott Horton and I'm joined on the phone once again by Jesse Trenendou.
He's a lawyer from Salt Lake City, Utah.
Welcome back to the show, Jesse.
How are you doing?
I'm fine, Scott.
Thank you for having me.
Well, good.
I'm very happy to have you here.
Happy holidays to you and all those things, New Year's and all that.
Um, let me give them the very quick version and then you fill in whatever you absolutely need to, but I just wanted to try to catch everybody up on the story real quick if they hadn't heard it, and that is that Jesse's brother, Kenneth, um, was tragically, apparently tortured to death in federal government custody in a jail in Oklahoma in August, I think it was, of 1995.
And, um, they didn't get away with covering up how he died because Jesse is a lawyer and, uh, knew how to jump through all the right hoops to get the body and to, um, you know, enjoying the legal process, uh, in order to try to get as much information as he could and basically stumbled into the Oklahoma City bombing story because it seems, and maybe more than seems, I don't know if this has been absolutely nailed down, but at the very least, it seems as though the reason that Kenneth Trenadue was tortured to death by federal cops was because they thought he was someone else.
It was a case of mistaken identity.
They thought he was Richard Lee Guthrie, who is a suspect in the Oklahoma City bombing, who's now also dead, uh, died in a jail cell separately.
Um, but Kenneth apparently fit the description, uh, same color hair, same dragon tattoo, same pickup truck coming back from Mexico like Guthrie would have thought to have been coming back from Mexico, that kind of thing.
And in this case, mistaken identity, they killed him.
And so that's the background to the story and how, uh, Jesse came into the story of the Oklahoma City bombing and et cetera like that.
Is that basically a correct thumbnail sketch there, Jesse?
That is accurate.
So I kind of rambled on.
I definitely could have made it shorter and sweeter than that, but anyway, um, so at issue now, uh, one big part of this story is that Senator Orrin Hatch, who is a very powerful Republican Senator, uh, from Utah and was, I guess, the head of the Senate Reform Committee or whatever they call the Senate version of it.
And he was, I believe, prepared to hold hearings into what happened to your brother Kenneth.
And then somehow those hearings never materialized.
Is that correct?
That's correct.
He was the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee.
Judiciary Committee.
He called it a murder.
He called it a cover-up.
Um, he announced hearings and then suddenly they, all talk of hearings disappeared.
And we now know that was due to the efforts of deputy and then a deputy attorney general, Eric Holder.
Mr. Holder was a deputy attorney general under the Reno Clinton Justice Department.
Right.
And, um, now I have here, uh, there was a story that came out.
Um, I'm sorry, I don't have the website in front of me anymore.
Uh, uh, a news story here had a link to, uh, your, your letter to, I believe, Patrick Leahy on the confirmation of Eric Holder, why you should not be confirmed as attorney general.
And here you attach in this PDF format, um, here, these, uh, actual documents, uh, from the department of justice that you got through your various lawsuits, um, based on, uh, your brother's case.
So can you please explain to us what exactly is in here?
What exactly do you know for sure about Eric Holder's role in this?
Well, the Eric Holder's names all over those emails and they're from the highest levels of the department of justice.
Uh, Mr. Holder was orchestrating, uh, the efforts to put pressure on Senator Hance not to have hearings.
He referred to it as a Trinidu mission.
He described it as more complicated than coordinating invasion of Normandy.
Those are Eric Holder's words from his justice department.
Yes.
And Eric's name is all over.
They refer to him as the deputy attorney general, Eric.
And he was set up to, uh, his staff was setting up a meeting with Senator Hance to kill any inquiry into my brother's murder by the Senate Judiciary Committee.
And you have to ask yourself, why would they be that concerned about the death of a, a parole violator in the federal system?
Right.
After all, I mean, if it's just a matter of prosecuting a local prison guard who got out of hand or something like that, why would they care?
Why not go ahead and nail them to the wall?
The reason is that, uh, as I pursued this for the last 16 years, as you told your audience, everything, I didn't start out to solve the Oklahoma city bombing, but everything, every trail I went down, every lead I followed with respect to my brother's murder took me to Oklahoma city.
And it became very clear to me that it was a lot bigger and uglier than just, uh, Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols being disgruntled and blowing up a federal building.
It became obvious to me that at a minimum, the FBI and the department of justice knew at least four months in advance, it was going to happen.
And they never stopped it.
And when I got in and how I did this, I'll never know, but I got in this see Terry Nichols and spent a day and a half with him.
And one of the FBI informants actually gave them the explosives to use as a detonator.
And I had an order from a federal judge to let me go take Nichols deposition under oath.
And the FBI went to the 10th circuit court of appeals and had the order reversed.
And which government informant, there's so many government informants involved in this case.
I have trouble keeping them straight.
Jesse, can you help me?
Mr. Nichols said that, uh, of a man by the name of Roger Moore had provided the kinesthetic, the high energy explosives that were used to detonate the bomb.
And this was the guy that supposedly they had robbed him in order to finance the thing.
Am I right?
No, it was according to Terry Nichols.
It was a sham.
It was a, uh, the robbery was just a cover to explain why the, the explosives and other items used to finance the bombing were missing.
And that had come from Mr. Moore.
Does it just come down to your opinion that, uh, that Nichols is not just trying to get back at this guy?
I mean, he's doing life anyway, right?
Why not get back at the guy who testified against him?
Well, uh, it's more than that, Scott, as, as I pursued this over the last 16 years and lots of lawsuits and fights with the FBI, I stumbled across an operation that the FBI called PATCON, P-A-T-C-O-N.
PATCON was an acronym for Patriot Conspiracy.
And the FBI began to distance itself from PATCON when I was probing.
And they said it was just a simple operation where they were going to infiltrate some militia folks in Alabama who had stolen some night vision goggles from a military base and were selling them.
But it was clear to me that PATCON was bigger than that, much, much bigger.
And there were PATCON operations going on all over the country.
And there were, they referred to them as PATCON Group 1, PATCON Group 2, PATCON Group 3.
And as I, for my own personal safety, whenever I received these documents, I made sure that I sent them to you and I sent them to everyone else who would get them out into the media.
So there would be nothing that I would have that no one else would have.
So it takes away the, they made, the FBI made two attempts to indict me, but during this whole process, but I made sure that there would be nothing secret about what I was doing.
They made attempts to indict you?
Twice.
On what trumped up bogus nonsense?
Obstruction of justice.
On totally unrelated matters or on this?
On this.
That I was pushing too hard, probing too deeply into what they were doing.
And they tried to make that an obstruction case?
I guess I don't understand the law very well, or maybe there's not one.
The Department of Justice and the FBI can do pretty much what they want to do.
As we have seen in this country, they do not prosecute their own, unless it's in their interest to do so.
I mean, witness what happened at Ruby Ridge, no one was prosecuted for the murders at Ruby Ridge.
All right.
I'm sorry that we have to hold it right here and take this break, but we'll be right back everybody with Jesse Trenadue, a Utah lawyer and survivor of the murdered Kenneth Trenadue.
Remind me again real quick, Jesse, the website where you have the reward?
It was no, it's no longer reward, but we have a website on Kenneth now.
Okay.
What is it real quick?
It's www.kennethtrenadue.com.
I will email it to you.
Okay, great.
And, and hold it right there.
We'll be right back after this.
All right, y'all, welcome back to the show.
It's anti-war radio.
I'm on the line with Jesse Trenadue.
Poor guy got pulled sideways into the Oklahoma city bombing story because the cops murdered his brother.
And, uh, as I was saying at the beginning, apparently because they thought he was Richard Guthrie, who apparently was a suspect in the Oklahoma city bombing.
And, uh, on that specific point, is that, uh, is it more than apparently on that particular part of it, Jesse?
I think it is.
And what started me down this trail is, uh, shortly before he was executed, I got a message from Tim McVeigh who said that when I saw your brother's picture and read what happened to him, I want you to know that he was undoubtedly killed by the FBI who mistook him for Richard Lee Guthrie.
And, uh, I had received an anonymous phone call back in 1996 from a person who had said that my brother had been killed in an interrogation that went wrong, that it was a case of mistaken identity, that he was, uh, thought to be involved with a group of people who were robbing banks to obtain enough money to mount the tax against the federal government.
Of course, I dismissed that as a nut case, but it later proved to be true.
But one thing I want to stress to your audience, and they should pay attention to this, is Pat Conn.
Pat Conn was huge.
Pat Conn was ugly.
Pat Conn, meaning that's the FBI's name for their wide-scale, you say, investigation and infiltration of the radical right in the early, mid-1990s.
Apparently it went throughout the 90s because, um, here last summer I received a phone call from a fellow who said, um, I've been seeing what's been posted on the internet from your lawsuits with the FBI.
And I, he said, you have all the pieces, but you just haven't put them together.
And I said, what do you mean?
He said, well, you just don't see the picture.
And so he came to see me and I, I directed him to Newsweek Magazine and to, um, some other reporters.
He had been one of the top undercover operatives for the FBI and Pat Conn for almost 10 years.
He had infiltrated some 23 groups.
He started out believing it was the right thing.
He wasn't, you know, so many of these informants are people who are caught in the act of committing a crime and are forced to go undercover for the FBI.
He did it voluntarily because he thought these hate groups, what described him as hate groups were dangerous.
In hindsight, he said, he looked back on it and he sees now that the, the agenda, the agenda was to infiltrate and incite, uh, the militia movement, the right wing Christian movement, the violence, so that the department of justice could crush him.
He said that Ruby Ridge was a Pat Conn operation.
He said that Waco was a Pat Conn operation.
He believed that Oklahoma city was, but he wasn't involved in it, but he did say that other members of the Pat Conn group were involved in Oklahoma city.
And that is why the efforts to cover up my brother's murder took place.
That is why Eric Holder was involved.
And that is why Eric Holder and the Obama justice department are as nervous as a cat in a round room today, because if Pat Conn ever comes out, the truth about the story, uh, it'll bring down lots of people.
And in fact, one of, it was reported that a former FBI agent made the comment to one of the reporters that, uh, you better stay away from Pat Conn.
That'll get you killed.
Well, I mean, um, I don't know specifically that I, well, I I've heard it before, but I'm not, uh, I haven't gone to put the story together, starting there or anything like that.
Like you're saying this, uh, informant has suggested that you do.
Um, but I do know that, well, here's what I know.
I know that I don't trust my judgment when I was young or younger anymore.
And I know that I've forgotten a lot of details of this.
I know that in the past, I've been extremely convinced that, uh, all kinds of different flip States, witnesses and undercover FBI informants, and including cops, uh, were working at Elohim city.
We're running the Aryan Republican army bank robbery ring that they were all buds with McVeigh and helped do this thing.
Then again, like, you know, I'm not sure which of those details I still am a hundred percent convinced of.
Uh, I, I really should go back and just start my whole investigation all over again.
But I wonder, is that basically what you think, Andre Strassmeier and Elohim city, et cetera, still, is that right?
Yes.
And, uh, this, this undercover operatives said that Strassmeier and McVeigh had trained together with the Texas light infantry in, in Texas.
Uh, I think JD cash told me about that too, before he died.
I need to go back and re-listen to the cash interviews.
The, the scope of the operation was, I mean, amazing on PatCon and what they were prepared to do, they being the department of justice and the FBI.
It, if any of your listeners care to just go on and do a web search for PatCon, P-A-T-C-O-N, and the whole ugly story is now starting to surface.
Well, you know, I have a page somewhere where I have posted maybe not the last handful, but almost all of your PDF files, your court documents.
Um, but unfortunately I haven't gone through and really categorized and titled everything and explain what's what or anything like that.
But if anybody wants kind of the raw dump of Jesse Trinidou PDFs, uh, I know Mother Jones, uh, magazine hosts a lot of them, but, uh, also it's, um, descent radio.com/T F for Trinidou files.
Uh, and then it should just be slash index dot HTML or whatever.
Um, and, and that'll have the links to all those different, uh, PDF files for you.
Um, and I'll have the link on the summary of this interview later, but yeah, I mean, it does say in there, this is like coordinating the invasion of Normandy.
We've got to work together and really hard to tie up all the loose ends to make sure that attorney, that deputy attorney general holder is successful in preventing the Senate from investigating a murder.
It's in there.
I mean, that alone is, uh, he ought to be impeached and removed and, and indicted today for that.
And it's all right there.
Oh, and they, that's exactly what they did.
And I now know that it was because of what was what they were afraid that that an investigation would lead to.
And that would be to PatCon and their involvement in the bombing and their involvement in Ruby Ridge and their involvement in Waco.
And who knows what other murders and illegal acts they committed under the name of PatCon.
Yeah.
Well, the, uh, that Aryan Republican army bank robbery ring sure committed a lot of crimes.
I don't know how infiltrated they were and from what day, but, uh, boy, oh boy, that wasn't nothing that, uh, this, this informant, this informant told me that the FBI formed the Aryan Republican army.
Oh, I wouldn't doubt that.
I mean, why, why doubt it?
It's pretty obvious.
Right.
And the thing is, um, you know, even if you look at it from a mostly benign point of view, like you're saying, this informant told you he went in there with the best of intentions.
We would like to believe, right.
That if there's a new, uh, uh, rising clan group that the cops would infiltrate it to make sure that they don't hurt anyone.
Cause we know how they are, right.
They hurt people, but instead what we have is the cops making sure that they hurt people.
Yes.
They wanted that.
And now do you have any recent communication with Orrin Hatch?
Uh, no, uh, snort Orrin wouldn't respond to me.
I'm afraid.
Yeah.
Well, you know, it's really great that, um, that you're a lawyer, but it's just too bad you live in Utah.
It'd be so much better if you lived in DC where you could just go hassle these people every day after work or whatever, till they finally do something, you know, find out something bad about them, go drinking in the bars and blackmail Dan Burton into holding a hearing.
And the members of Congress know about it.
They, they Orrin Hatch undoubtedly knows about PatCon and he understands, uh, the significance of it and what it would do to the government.
Can you tell us a real quick about the videos?
Cause they did release some video footage to you.
It's just missing the important part, right?
Well, they did two things, Scott.
I asked for the videotapes from the surveillance cameras on all the buildings surrounding the Murrow building that was shows the roadway so that you could see the truck being driven to the Murrow building on the morning of April 19th, 1995.
Uh, they gave me 26 videotapes, um, all of which go blank at various times between 854 AM and nine Oh two AM when the bomb went off and the FBI's explanation was that the tapes were being changed or recycled.
Right.
But we know for a fact that that's a lie because the LA times and the local NBC channel reported that they saw the footage.
The cops showed them the footage and they saw two men get out of that truck.
They saw John Doe to go to the back, not McVeigh.
Well, that's the other thing I asked for was a video surveillance tapes from the Murrow building itself.
And the FBI didn't produce those.
They said they can't find them.
And those would have been the tapes that would have shown the bombers delivering the bomb and the bomb going off.
In fact, one of the government documents says that the surveillance cameras show the bomb detonating three minutes and six seconds after the suspects exited the vehicle.
And the most important piece of evidence in the, at the time, the largest mass murder in this country, the tape showing who did it and no one's ever seen it.
But the government people and a few reporters early on and the FBI says they can't find it.
They don't say it doesn't exist.
They've just taken a position and told this federal judge before whom I had this lawsuit that they looked real, real hard, but they just can't find that damn tape.
Well, maybe they should look in the garbage dump when they were, they threw all those army soldiers bodies.
That's probably where it is.
You know, it's sort of an honest answer.
You know, judge, ever since we destroyed it, we can't find it in the office anywhere.
It's kind of gone now.
Uh, I wouldn't doubt that at all.
But, and by the way, you know, I know that this sounds like crazy conspiracy theory stuff to a lot of people, but again, we're talking about legal documents here.
And, and it's just a fact, if you go back and look, um, you don't have to have any kind of ideological bent whatsoever to just verify the truth that dozens, literally dozens of people saw Timothy McVeigh with others in the days and weeks leading up to that attack.
And including that morning, there was, you know, certainly more than half a dozen people saw McVeigh with someone else that day in downtown Oklahoma, while his, his convicted co-conspirator Terry Nichols was, everyone agrees, two states away at the time.
So there's certainly something going on here.
And you know what?
You're right.
It's time for us all to start Googling PatCon and figure out everything we can about this.
It's such a, this thing, Jesse, to me, I've known it was lies from the very beginning.
I wasn't buying it just by coincidence.
I met a guy the day it happened, who said, Oh, come on, they're lying about this, that, and the other thing.
And so I was suspicious and onto him all along, but I never could write my own kind of unified field theory of what I believe really happened here.
I've never had enough to really like, try to prove it.
But I sure would like to know the whole truth, because I'm sure you would.
Well, your audience should know that when they read those doc, it's not me making this up about PatCon.
These are FBI documents.
Oh, certainly.
Referring to PatCon.
And, and the name itself is sinister.
I mean, the notion of Patriot conspiracy, right?
Like let's make one.
There's a bunch of Patriots.
Let's make a conspiracy out of them.
See if we can get some people killed.
That sounds about right for the FBI.
All right, well, listen, I've already kept you over time.
And I apologize if well, I know for sure that I didn't ask all the best questions in the best order and these kinds of things to get the very best out of you.
But I think, you know, we've learned a lot and hopefully it'll pique a lot of people's interest and want to learn more about this case, Jesse.
Well, I appreciate you having me on, as I said.
All right.
Thank you.
And, and look, it's all for justice for Kenneth, who, after all, you know, had nothing to do with the Oklahoma City bombing.
He was just some poor guy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
And, you know, if the whole government has to fall, the heavens have to fall for him to get justice, then that's the way it is, man.
It's not all right to kill somebody, even if you're the cops.
Well, it's more than that.
It's justice for the 168 people killed in Oklahoma City and the 19 children there.
It's justice for the kids killed at Waco.
And it's justice for the people, the mother and her son that were murdered by the FBI, Ruby Ridge.
They're crying out for justice, too.
Hey, what about the Terry Yakey thing?
Have you looked into that?
The Oklahoma City police officer who was very suicided?
That was very suspicious.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, I'm sorry.
We're over time.
I got to let you go.
But again, I thank you so much for your time, Jesse, and best of luck to you and prove in this case.
Thank you, Scott, for having me.
All right, everybody, that's Jesse trying to do.
The website is Kenneth Trinidou dot com.
It's Trent, T-R-E-N-T-A-D-U-E, just like it sounds, Trinidou, Kenneth Trinidou dot com.
And we'll be right back after this.
