All right y'all welcome back to the show It's anti-war radio Here on chaos and the liberty radio network I'm scott horton and our first guest on the show today is barbara slavin She's an expert on us foreign policy and she's the author of a 2007 book on iran entitled bitter friends bosom enemies iran the u.s.
And the twisted path to confrontation Um, she of course, uh was assistant managing editor at the washington times and used to report for Uh usa today.
You'll see her all the time on the lair news hour and shows like that on pbs And uh, definitely a real expert on iran has been for years follow her twitter at barbara slavin one And check her out also lately at interpress service ips news.net.
This one is called mass tragedy feared As closure of mek camp looms, welcome to show barbara.
How are you?
I'm, i'm well, and thank you for having me.
Well, thank you very much for joining us.
This is a very important story.
Um, People might not really be familiar at all with the details of the background of this kind of thing But it looks like what you describe here is the upcoming jonestown I've often compared the mek on this show to the bow and tee heavens gate cult and now here we are Yeah, it's a very unfortunate situation This is a group that uh lost out in the power struggle in iran after the revolution Uh and went on to betray the iranian people by basing themselves in iraq during the iran iraq war As a result, they have very limited support, uh within iran But what's really tragic is that a lot of the members were basically Tricked into joining uh young people who were separated from their families brainwashed Subjected to you know, almost uh maoist type mind control and there may be as many as 3200 uh people in a camp in iraq That the iraqis have said has to close by the end of the year, but the camp leadership and the leadership of the mek Uh, it's it's well, it's not clear yet whether they're going to actually cooperate with the united nations plan to to evacuate the camp Now and they've been at camp ashraf here protected by the united states, uh since the invasion of 2003 before that They were protected by saddam as you said Um, but now the americans are gone And uh, as you say here, uh, nouri al-maliki saying they got to go out of camp ashraf by december 31st and uh yet I think you're saying here The iraqi government wants to go ahead and allow them to go to camp liberty instead.
What's the difference to them?
You know, well, it's a huge difference camp.
Ashraf has been in existence for about 25 years.
It is their Basically their base.
It's where they have weapons, uh stored where they've done their their military training and I mean, can you imagine the united states allowing?
You know a camp of an adversary to remain on their territory for over eight years That's basically what the what the iraqis have have done Obviously, they didn't have a choice because the united states gave protection to the camp But what maliki is saying is you can't have This military camp within our country anymore.
We will let you leave Uh monitored by the united nations and go to camp liberty, which is an old u.s Base near the baghdad airport and their members of the un high commissioner for refugees Will be able to interview these people Separate them from their leadership find out You know where they want to go if they have relatives in europe or the united states or Uh, if they want to go back to iran Some of them have gone back to iran about 300 or so and have not faced any problems or minimal problems as far as I know um, but the ashraf leadership and particularly mariam rajavi who is the Head of the organization, uh with her husband her husband massoud's whereabouts have been unknown for some time Uh, there are rumors he might even be in camp ashraf, but mariam rajavi is safely ensconced outside paris where she is negotiating the conditions for this transfer and She is very reluctant To close the camp number one number two She's insisting that u.s.
Troops or united nations peacekeeping troops protect the people as they're transferred Knowing full well that these are impossible demands that the iraqis are not going to permit u.s Troops who've just left the country to come back to supervise this the un says it has adequate monitors, uh to you know to monitor this 24 7 to be on the buses with the Camp residents as they're transferred in batches From ashraf to to camp liberty, but they need the approval of the mek leadership well now So is it completely clear that they're doing this just to break the deal?
That she is doing this just to break the deal as you say, uh Uh, you know, there are no more american troops She obviously could have asked for this last summer or just even in october or something and she would have had enough american troops Uh to escort these people, uh, but you say that the un says they'll monitor the transfer That means what civilians with baby Yeah, yeah civilian un employees who will who will monitor it and will report if there are any problems and Uh, we'll make sure that the transfer takes place smoothly.
I think the iraqis the iraqis just want to get rid of these people I mean, they don't want a bloodbath Um, they don't want a major international incident.
They they want them out of the country as as quickly as possible well, and uh, and you know the rajivis, uh Have have wanted to keep their presence there close to the border with iran where they still you know Might have some operational ability to act against Against the iranian regime, but there's another factor in this and i'm I don't know if your listeners have followed this this Whole crazy case for a long time Well, if they have then they know that the mujahideen hawk is trying desperately to get off the state department's foreign terrorist list And so what mrs.
Rajavi is basically doing is holding these poor people hostage to that That decision she wants the state department to announce that they're not a terrorist group and then lo and behold Maybe she would let these people, you know live Um, it's it's as stark as that and it's as terrible as that Uh to my mind now the state department insists that these are separate processes.
They're not going to make a ruling on the The foreign terrorist foreign foreign terrorist list status of the mek before december the 31st So what she's doing is she's gambling as I say with the lives of these people um You know, they don't they probably don't all have to be out of the camp by december 31st but a process has to have started of moving them to camp liberty and I would assume that at least a busload of them have to be on their way out in order for this all to work and Gonna simply march the iraqi army in there and force them out on that day.
Well, that's a really good question It's going to put him obviously in a very awkward position I mean the fear is that if he starts to send troops in that the people in the camp will commit will will provoke clashes or You know commit suicide in effect I mean, I don't know if you want to call it like jonestown or maybe it's more like waco You know where the authorities come in and and terrible things happen and and many of the people there die Well waco that was bill clinton sent the delta force to kill those people that was in the dallas morning news But jonestown seems it's going to be you know combination jonestown waco or or jonestown waco masada You know use your whatever historical analogy you want But these are people who've been so brainwashed that they will do whatever mariam rajavi tells them to do well, and they have There's a history of of mek cult members setting themselves on fire over Minor things right?
She didn't get bailed out until she can't get bailed out till monday morning or something.
They set themselves on fire Two young women in in in europe who who set themselves on fire and killed themselves when mariam rajavi was arrested And jailed briefly, uh some years back So this is you know, obviously something that they they are prepared to do and you know, they talk about martyrdom Uh, they make a lot of really frightening comments in the camp Obviously trying to put pressure on the united states on the iraqis To let them stay or to get off the terrorist list or whatever you have Of course their demonstrations in front of the state department every day Some of those people really are mek members Some of them are people who were hired for 50 a day to stand there and wear t-shirts and scream slogans uh, you know, it's uh We really don't know where the money comes for these people to buy full-page ads in the new york times and the washington post uh, it's just a mystery and They haven't as far as I know taxpayer Well, they haven't as far as I know committed any terrorist acts for a long time because they haven't been able to they've been Pinned down in this in this camp and I don't know if they belong in the list anymore or not But but this business at ashraf is a humanitarian situation that should be resolved.
Let the united nations Resolve it.
That's that's what I would advocate.
All right.
Now, we'll have to hold it there and go out to this break We'll be back after this with barbara slavin.
She's on the atlantic council and uh writes for interpress service And all over the place she's on twitter and her website is barbara slavin.net.
We'll be right back after this All right, y'all welcome back to the show It's anti-war radio I'm talking with barbara slavin.
Her website is barbara slavin.net.
She's on twitter barbara slavin one.
I found out Poor, uh, non-one barbara slavin has to redirect everybody all the time.
I think that's uh, the breaks I got the same name as the other scott horton, too um so, uh, she's uh writes for just foreign policy and For interpress service and all over the place the latest at ips news.net is called mass tragedy feared as closure of mek camp looms And it's the mujahideen.
Iqalq communist terrorist, uh, bo and t.
Heaven's gate cult that used to work for the ayatollah in the revolution and killed americans and then worked for saddam hussein against the ayatollah and then according to my wife larissa alexandrovna's reporting Back in 2006.
She was working for donald rumsfeld Killing people and collecting intelligence inside iran and according to philip giraldi on this show, uh, just two weeks ago Uh, they are at least very suspected uh of being behind many of the assassinations and bombings, uh them and jandala and uh, Perhaps the p jack which is a kurdish communist group as well Um, I don't know if you have your own original reporting about Those recent activities inside iran barbara.
Do you know?
I I don't know if they've been responsible for those activities.
I do know that back in 2003 Uh when the u.s invaded, uh, iraq there was a discussion In fact, the united states had promised the iranians In diplomatic talks that had taken place before then that they would declare the mek enemy combatants Uh, zami halilzad told me that himself.
He was of course our former Ambassador in iraq and he was a former negotiator with the iranians Back in the days when we actually talked to them And uh u.s promised to declare them enemy combatants instead declared them protected persons under the geneva convention So they u.s broke its its word to iran Then there was an effort the iranians wanted to get some of the mek leaders and they offered to transfer uh and and turn over some al-qaeda members that they had Captured um after 2001 who were in iran including the number three seyf al-adl and uh one of osama bin laden's sons um, but I'm reliably told that while uh, the state department cohen powell even condi rice, uh were Supportive of this it was blocked by paul wolfowitz and doug fife over at the pentagon Who wanted to hold the mek in reserve to use against iran in in some regime change scheme or in uh, You know terrorist attacks at some point So it was blocked and as a result, we are still stuck with this problem Almost nine years later with the mek still at camp ashraf um, it's it's you know, it's unfortunate because we could have gotten some key al-qaeda leaders back in 2003 if If the u.s had been willing to to carry out this swap and instead, of course It had dreams of regime regime change in iran and didn't want to give those up Yeah, that's the story that uh now the leverettes, uh, then they were separate uh, flint leverett and hillary man leverett resigned over uh in part anyway Uh, yeah.
Well, of course there was the famous 2003 agenda for talks that was presented at the state department that that uh Died a quick death because the bush administration was not interested in comprehensive negotiations with iran at that time And you know, you have such a soft voice It just I don't know if the emphasis really got out there including one of osama bin laden's sons and not the one that went and gave a rolling stone in a night, uh, Interviewed in a nightclub in syria one of the bad guy ones and this guy safe al-adl who?
Uh was recently swapped with al-qaeda for a kidnapped iranian diplomat after all this time, you know 10 years later Uh, he's off a house arrest now apparently on the loose somewhere in afghanistan or pakistan.
That's absolutely right.
The u.s could have swapped Uh some of these mek people for safe al-adl back in 2003, but chose not to amazing and now I wonder if you could help clear up for me Kind of in the bureaucratic, uh sense and the way this plays out What real difference does it make if the mujahideen kalk is taken off of the state department's terrorist list I saw a quote from McInerney, I believe it was general mcinerney or colonel or whatever saying Yeah, once we take them off the terrorist list, then it's easier to use them as terrorists, which is what we want to do Pretty blatant.
I'm, not sure exactly how that works though Or what what is it that rajabi is so stuck on being on that list?
It's not a reputation It means That her people stuck at camp ashraf will be able to what go here there somewhere else different than they're allowed to go now Not come here, right?
Well, my fear frankly is that they will then try to get the u.s congress to appropriate funds to support them as the legitimate opposition to the iranian government And they will become like the iraqi national congress was back in the old days with ahmed chalabi and and those other folks Who uh who got a lot of money from the united states to to oppose saddam or even the government in exile Supposedly that hillary clinton recognizes in syria, right?
Uh, well, I don't know and they don't they're not supported by the united states yet as far as I know But uh, I mean also, I don't think we should we should conflate the syrian national council with the nek I mean the syrian national council is full of a lot of very uh Upstanding people some of whom I know and seems to be uh, you know, a fairly legitimate body It's certainly a non-violent one Whereas the mek of course has quite a history of violence as well as this these very frightening Mind control cult-like aspects to it.
Well, I mean you could anyone could tell that just from my email here You know, the mek people are absolutely a cult.
I don't know what you know If they're not a cult then there's no such thing as a cult.
Yeah, absolutely I mean they worship mariam rajavi.
They they have pictures of her everywhere It's you know, it's it's it's not the sort of thing you do if you are a normal democratic Uh kind of uh organization so they will not bring democracy to iran and they they have very little in all the visits i've Had in iran and i've gone there seven times and spent you know weeks months if you add it all up months I guess in the country and all that time i've met one person who had something positive to say about the mek Um, who wasn't one of them?
No, who wasn't one of them or a homeless person paid to hold the sign?
No, no Who was it like the fact that they killed a lot of clerics in their day?
And who really hated the clerical regime and there are people who are relatives of mek members You know it a lot of young people joined before the revolution and many of them Uh were arrested, uh afterwards and thousands of them were primarily executed in 1988 at the end of the iran iraq war When uh, the rajivis with their great intelligence decided that even after iran had signed the ceasefire in the war These people sent uh squads of mek people into iran To try to I don't know what they thought they could still somehow topple the government And of course, they were all slaughtered and then khomeini ordered the Execution of thousands of mek prisoners in in iranian jails Many of them young people who had done nothing more than pass out leaflets, uh before they were arrested So these people have families they have relatives and I think some of the support for the group comes from those who are related to to people who Were were killed at that time or who were killed during the revolution or immediately thereafter you know, so there is some some support and i've been surprised to the last time the iraqi sent troops into ashraf there was a A skirmish and a number of people were killed and iranian friends of mine expressed Sympathy and anger at the iraqis over this so, you know They are after all iranians and they are many of them victims of this cult Uh, so we really need to think about you know about them.
I I understand there are even four minors in the camp Uh, you know, we should think about them as this goes forward Yeah, well When it comes down to it, would you place your bets on?
Rajavi's going to give in I mean unlike jonestown.
Well, I don't know if it's unlike jonestown is but I guess it's really up to her whether she considers Their back up against the wall enough that they're going to go ahead and pass out the flavor aid now, you know I just don't know, you know, I just don't know.
Um, uh, the state department has reported some progress in talks with her uh this uh over the last couple of days the Un ambassador to iraq has been to to paris to talk to her directly about this And uh, you know, the hope is that as we kick down toward december 31 She will uh put the lives of these people first But you know that she may be worried about the tales that some of these people will tell if they're actually allowed to leave ashraf uh numbers of people who've left the organization have talked about the kind of brainwashing they go through the the um Kind of sessions where they have to flagellate themselves and talk about their sins and and so on she may not want to have those stories out there because Maybe some of the former senior u.s Officials who've been taking 25 50 000 a pop to speak on behalf of this group will be ashamed of themselves and will stop doing that Yeah, well, I don't know about that Maybe they might look bad Yeah, well now they do have somewhere to go other than western europe or america No, I mean if they're allowed to As you say be kind of separated one by one and ask where do you want to take it?
That's the problem.
They they really don't have Anywhere to go most of them and that's why this horrible job has been given to dan freed at the state department He's the guy who's responsible for trying to resettle people from guantanamo Uh, so it's rough, but you know, some of them apparently do have relatives in europe or in the united states Uh, and if you can talk to them one by one if they can be given refugee status You know those who who don't have blood on their hands who are simply innocent victims of this organization Hopefully there will be a way, you know to to to find A home for for these folks, you know, some of them might even be able to to stay in iraq as individuals.
Who knows?
But the main thing is to break up the organized camp that they have had in iraq for all these years Well, and you know america just now finally pulling all the soldiers out They could have taken care of this at any point in the last almost nine years and they just didn't I mean look the nek has not cooperated.
They have not wanted to cooperate.
They have wanted to keep this camp And for that reason, you know It's been very difficult for for the uh, the obama administration to to resolve it The obama administration has been trying which is more than the bush administration did.
Yeah Oh, so they really have been trying to resolve it even since he came into power not just in the last minute Well, certainly within certainly within the last year or so, uh, they had been trying to to resolve it.
I know that for for sure Well, it's a sad story.
I sure hope it doesn't end up in one of these movie of the week catastrophes, but it just might Yeah.
All right.
Well, thank you so much for your insight on the show today.
I really appreciate it.
Oh, you're quite welcome Everybody that's barbara slavin.
She's writing for interpress service The article is mass tragedy feared as closure of mek camp looms And you can find her website at barbara slavin.net.
We're going to be back right after this
