All right y'all welcome back.
It's anti-war radio.
I'm Scott Horton.
Okay, so now to our last guest on the show today It's Pepe Escobar from the Asia Times and author of globalist stan and Obama does globalist stan Welcome back to the show Pepe.
How are you doing?
Wonderful.
Always great to be with you Scott.
Great.
Well, I'm very happy to have you here Although I hate the stuff that you write.
It's so good I mean, I'm not saying that but it's all the truth that I don't want to know but I have to anyway for example in the viewpoint section today on anti-war.com is This article which I'm clicking on the wrong one Where'd it go Go the spoils.
Yes.
Exactly.
What you're saying is this war that correct me if I'm wrong was Organized and operated and ran by the Americans even though maybe it was British and French planes doing most of the bombing And our CIA guys on the ground they had the French and British Special Forces, but as far as America's involvement goes This was all for France not for the USA not for Houston, Texas No, it was especially for France In fact, the Obama administration was very clever because the war was organized in France last year As I wrote about this for the past five or six months Since the Gaddafi's chief of protocol Defected from Libya to Paris in October 2010.
So the whole operation was organized by the Sarkozy administration by French intelligence and by some key defectors since October last year the whole thing started of course in February in the beginning We had impression in the West as a whole in Europe in the US and South America that this was an indigenous Revolution just like in Tunisia in Egypt.
In fact, there were legitimate Demonstrations in Benghazi in mid-february late February the Google generation, you know unemployed Lawmen or teachers, but the whole thing then was hijacked by this massive Psyops operation organized by the French with the Brits by that time already and the Americans came later only after The the UN resolution 1973 was passed at the UN and after that deal I also wrote about that months ago.
We talked about it on mentor.com the deal between the State Department the House of South in terms of getting the the Arab League vote and then The council revolution the Persian Gulf would be totally taken over by the House of South would help from the Emirates and Qatar So this was in the beginning later on Lots of information came up regarding the French interest for this war the very intimate relationship between Sarkozy and the Emir of Qatar The fact that the Emir of Qatar is buying half of Paris and buying weapons from the soul, you name it So it's very very close like Qatar is a sort of suburb of Paris or vice or doha or Paris Suburb of Doha and vice versa, you know what I mean?
But this this bits and pieces of information we we learn in March April May and only I would say by June After the NATO bombing had been going on for three months or so We could have more or less the big picture with the different interests that play French Brits NATO Pentagon Afrikaan Qataris Emirates and the House of South and It's what just simply who gets to pump the oil out of the ground and take the biggest cut off the top.
Oh No, no, no, there's so many interests.
In fact, okay.
Let's let's give it a very short version For the French is that total to have a bigger piece of the pie in terms of energy from Libya for the water companies They are French the big water companies in the world.
They're all French They want to privatize Libya's water, right?
And this has to do with Gaddafi's that man-made river project the great man-man river project, which is a system of pipelines piping fresh Desert water to the coast.
This was built by the Libyan government without Involvement from the IMF or the World Bank It's an example for the rest of the developing world that you can do these things without Going to Washington to get financing or to be subservient to the World Bank's designs Okay, this is France Selling more weapons, of course to a very unreliable customer because Gaddafi would okay I want to buy or a file the mirages.
They'll say no.
No, maybe I'll buy supplies from Russia or buy weapons from China in terms of NATO securing The Mediterranean is a NATO lake in terms of Afrikan having a base in Africa If you don't have one, you have quarters in Stuttgart.
So Libya was the perfect opportunity the Brits They wanted to make more deals with the government much more pliable than Gaddafi So, you know that there's so many interesting Qatar.
They wanted a new market in Northern Africa Qatar and the Emirates they want to be closer to NATO there.
They already have a very close partnership But now they are part of NATO as a whole So NATO is as a robo global cop if NATO decides tomorrow to have a an intervention in South America Which the South America are discussing a few months ago is a strong possibility for for the near or medium-term future We're gonna have Qataris and Emirates as part of the NATO intervention global cop force So, you know when you had this all up The international community between comma that have been reading in the New York Times Washington Post Le Monde and all that This is NATO countries the US and the Persian Gulf monarchy The rest is excluded and the rest being the BRIC countries especially Brazil, Russia, India and China South Africa was coerced by In fact by President Obama Long phone call to President Zuma from South Africa to convince him to vote in favor of the UN resolution But later Zuma Repented and he even went to the mission to leave it to try to convince both parties Gaddafi and the NATO rebels to sit down and discuss it Totally spurned.
In fact, the African news that Africa did not exist in this whole conflict African people did not exist African black Africans sub-saharan Africans are being massacred by the rebel for months now and You know apart from Exactly anti-war dot-com you have been covering this very very well at least, you know pinpointing The absurdities, but you don't read this in US mainstream media.
You don't read this in the European major media You don't read of course, you will never Have a reference about this on Al Jazeera Arabic or English, you know, so what it's in terms of I Was watching Dominique Strauss-Kahn yesterday going on a French TV saying he was a moral failure.
What happened with him in With that famous African lady at the Sofitel in New York You multiply this by a cosmic one billion and you have the moral failure of the West as a whole Yeah, well, it's amazing I actually read an article that said why is the media so obsessed with Libya at the expense of everything else and I thought are You kidding me obsessed with what they haven't talked about Libya in months that it was promised to last a couple of days and Americans just don't have patience for a TV show That's only you know about the French and the Africans after all and and whatever they're done It failed in the first half season, you know It's true and because of course if you start wait a minute now, I'm sorry I talked just right up to the time while the music's playing.
We got to go out and take this break When we get back I'm gonna set you up with a few more substantive questions I hope and let you roll and teach us about what's going on in this mad war over there It's Pepe Escobar from the Asia Times.
That's a times.com.
We'll be back All right, y'all welcome back It's anti-war radio.
I'm Scott Horton and I have Pepe Escobar on the line he writes for the Asia Times, that's a times online and we're talking about the war for regime change in Libya and first of all on The last few months Pepe.
Can you tell me real quick?am I right that basically the US Navy aircraft carriers and the African command and whatever were the Top of the chain as far as ordering what to bomb and whatever Organizing it flying there a wax around in the sky and all of that Oh, yeah, I guess British and French planes that were doing most of the bombing, right?
Yes, but don't forget that the war the war was technically initiated by Sarkozy's mirages bombing North and North and Eastern Libya At night, but a few hours later Africom started the war like the real real war they launched, you know two or three days they launched over 150 Tomahawks and this was controlled by Africom they had a sent sort of mobile command in Mediterranean They're they they had a command in a NATO base in Naples in Italy and they had their own Headquarters in Stuttgart.
So this was the really heavy bombing was coordinated by Africom then a few days later Africom receded and NATO took over.
So this was a joint Africom NATO war in the beginning.
So the Americans are deeply involved from the beginning But this was in the US very few people talked about it He said I mean during the months of bombing Was it Americans who were calling those shots or it really was at that point turned over to the French and the British to do It because there is no NATO.
Really?
We're talking about the national governments here Absolutely.
As far as we know the shots were called by NATO.
I would say around April May June and then there was a strategic decision by the Obama administration This was actually reported by the New York Times in the Washington Post later on not in June in early June I think the report about that two months later They made a strategic decision to start allowing the Pentagon to give the best analytical knowledge and the best satellite imagery Directly to NATO commander to pinpoint the so-called target.
So We can see that the past two months the the NATO bombing increased substantially the devastation increased substantially collateral damage increased Substantially because they in fact the target included according to a lot of independent observers in Libya Westerners and Libyans Involved hospitals involved the residential buildings and not only the famous control and command Qaddafi centers in labor in Tripoli and elsewhere So what the Americans got really involved in the war again after that initial?
Three or four day window when AFRICOM was involved.
They started to get really involved again in August and That's why we had the famous Plan B, which didn't exist until late August in fact the planet and NATO's plan a was to kill Qaddafi and there was no plan B and When the devastation increased with a better Pentagon NATO coordination As and with of course with French intelligence and British FAS troops on the ground Qatari special forces and Jordanian special forces on the ground, you know, they Upgraded their overall coordination then plan B arose, which was okay Let's try to take Tripoli and this was possible because the key brigade that took Tripoli That was the brigade commanded by Bill Hodge the former al-qaeda linked Libyan-islamic fighting group guy, which is now the commander of Tripoli Of course, they were being trained in the southwest mountain southwest of Tripoli The best fighters were not in that strip of highway Benghazi, Sirte, Tripoli.
No, they were being trained in the southwest mountains away from Qaddafi spies and Qaddafi Qaddafi regime infiltration.
So when they were ready They commanded the offensive towards Tripoli They coordinated the offensive with the guy with the people from Misrata that were taken by NATO ships To the shores of Tripoli.
So there was a pincer movement against Qaddafi forces then very important the key military brigade in Tripoli Commanded by commies one of Qaddafi's so they deserted when they saw the writing on the wall They say oh shit.
We're fucked and they they simply dissolve just like Saddam's forces in 2003 before Baghdad fell was exactly the same scenario But that actually fell in two days in Tripoli actually fell in one day when you look at it well, and you know a Cobble fell in a day, too, but Exactly cobble exactly cobble fell in a day.
I remember very well Yeah, because they decided they would rather live to fight another day instead of stand there and die.
So Exactly and that now wait a minute.
So then the point is, you know Look if you listen to TV if they talk about Libya at all This is this small thing that we're barely involved in at all and it's going to be over and done with thing and don't worry Obama doesn't really want to intervene there and that's probably about as much as you could hear about it But I wonder what's your prognosis for America being drawn into a long-term war?and it seems like their only way out is if they can snap their fingers and Reconstitute a national government that actually has authority over the whole land of Libya under its old borders and whatever And then say success, but what are the chances of that and maybe I have that wrong.
I don't know Look the chances of that I would say as if we look at the facts on the ground are zero Just yesterday from yesterday to today once again the TMC tried to constitute the government They failed us again for obvious reasons because we have a opportunist from all strands Qaddafi loyalist former exiles in London or in Vienna, Virginia near Langley Really really hardcore Islamists from Eastern Libya Some in Benghazi and south of Benghazi the former Libyan Islamic fighting group The bill had people which are armed to their teeth and they already said no we have to be part of power and We want Sharia law on top of it And this is exactly what TMC had said last week He said that Sharia law will be the basis of a new Egypt.
So it's a it's an absurd Regression you have okay.
You know what?
Obviously it was a dictatorship.
We all know that but it was a secular state and And he put the quality of live the standard of living Libya compared to the rest of Africa was infinitely better So now they're going to regress to a Sharia law state with lots of Islamists probably in the government or if not Fighting the government so obviously and these people are from Eastern Libya They have no sway with the Tripolitan in Western Libya, which is more urban With better access to information less tribal in fact, and they are not going to go for these guys to rule them Yeah Panetta's only chance here is to basically what they would say learn the lessons from Paul Wolfowitz and Paul Bremer's errors in Iraq and Don't disband the army keep everybody in the Qaddafi government that you can other than Qaddafi and his sons Basically and try to hold that up, which means fighting a war against the jihadi types that we just fought the war for So in other words, we're looking at Iraq in Libya from now on Yes, in fact, I wrote that we may be looking at Iraq 2.0 Afghanistan 2.0 a mix of both or even a Somalia 2.0 and This was also predictable from you know a week before anybody ever even said no fly zone Don't get involved in Libya or else We're gonna end up holding purple-fingered elections and training up an army and fighting a civil war We've seen this script before and here we go that easy look, but look at the brick countries They saw that while the British and the French were trying to redact what became a new and revolution 1973 the brick country ambassadors they they got together if I look we simply cannot vote for this thing because this is a green card for occupation for you know for occupation forever There were so many loopholes and that's exactly what happened as soon as the resolution was implemented It became a regime change revolution and this is what the Bricks were saying still at the UN and the Germans who are You know in terms of diplomacy don't rule them out.
They also saw through it It was a an American Franco British Carte Blanche to have a regime change, you know Without using NATO, of course as the weaponized arm of the UN and especially legitimized by the UN So in fact, this was the same thing as what happened to to Iraq in 2002 with the UN at it Yeah, and so everything next year.
It's gonna be like Iraq 2004 and 2005 Exactly.
Exactly.
So look don't rule out the coalition Do you remember the coalition provisional authority the CPA?
Oh, yeah No, no later.
We're gonna have a CPA in Libya because this will be the only way for the NATO powers Especially even if the US still wants to have a backseat to try to organize that mess, you know And to put their Hamid Karzai style puppets in power the TNC people, especially the Prime Minister Jibril University of Pittsburgh speaks fluent English, you know very good connections in London and Paris and all that they will love Jibril to be the number one guy and not Most of the time you would they did don't trust him especially after the sharia sharia law pronouncement last week, you know So they want you to be able to be there Hamid Karzai, but nobody wants him and there's already a war between the TNC guys and The Islamists who have the weapon in fact, they can't take over Libya today If they want to they have all the weapons and they control Tripoli militarily In fact they are Qaddafi the new Qaddafi government is an Islamist government and it's crazy because as much as we could as much as Qaddafi may be As as we used to call him unreliable crazy eccentric, you know At least he had a little bit of spice to international politics.
But anyway, that's another story He was right from the beginning said this isn't a foreign intervention with al-qaeda Allied with them and that's exactly what happened In fact, you know the intelligence the living times their services are very competent and they start from the beginning what it was You know with all the parallels between this war and the Iraq one that are already developing What it's funny how opposite it goes with the French because of course last time the American Establishment media and everybody just hated the French for Kindly warning us about our foreign policy folly and now here we are just a few years later Doing the exact same war for them this time Well, look to understand this better one has to learn how Sarkozy Works and how the Sarkozy machine controls French public opinion they control the media even even a newspaper which used to be Center-left or independent like Le Monde, you know nowadays this is the Sarkozy mouthpiece.
It's amazing and Sarkozy has very close contacts with the French industrial military complex For instance wonderful thing that broke out in a French blog today Do you know why Kaddafi managed to escape so far because he has a stealth 4x4 a stealth SUV Oh, I get it like radar absorbing Radar evading as state-of-the-art That is manufactured by bull in a bull is equivalent to Raytheon in France And they sold this thing to to cut off in 2008 So this was the only explanation that why John McCain was trying to sell armored personnel carriers for a shock troops Exactly.
Why nobody can can track him.
Of course, because he's using this case of the art spells You know No, this is fantastic And this was broken by a small French website You need to pay to get this information and they broke this story a few hours ago actually And it's the it's the only explanation to why he wasn't tracked so far even by NATO and the Pentagon You know, what's funny too is if you go back Eric Margulies says it was simply a cheap ploy where Muammar Qaddafi have been trying to suck up to the West for years and mostly saying I want to be your partner against these Jihadist terrorist types and they've been ignoring him for years So what he did was he bought a bunch of garage sale junk for make you con and then he said I'll give it up If you let me come in from the cold and and that gave them a PR victory after the Iraq war They were able to say yeah, we scared Qaddafi with that Iraq war and so he fell in line Is that not that that's the story he learned a lesson if you turn in your nuclear weapons capability, then you'll be safe They you'll be saved and that was his big mistake.
In fact, you know who convinced him to do that size all Islam London School of Economics Graduated size all Islam.
In fact, this was not a Qaddafi decision He was convinced by his family to do that by the Suns the Suns are dazzled with Europe You know, they wanted to keep their houses in London parking.
They've got that view Orgies in Italy you name it.
They love your their model.
It's not the US their model is Europe, basically, especially France and England and in the end they got their bombs exactly from France and England Qaddafi in the beginning was very reluctant to accept giving up his Nuclear junk material, you know Right, all right.
Well, listen, we're already way over time and I know you got to go But I really appreciate your time on the show as always Pepe.
I'm going to continue to call on you Wonderful.
Thanks very much.
And look this is a This week is absolutely crucial with the vote at the UN special.
So expect major fireworks after that Yeah, well, you know what?
I wouldn't mind if it would be okay with you if I was to do a follow-up interview With you in the next couple of days on that issue Yeah, okay, I'll be in Europe I'm going back to Medievalism next week.
I'll be in Europe To see how well they can go but we can do it from there, actually All right.
Well, I think as far as cell phones only have your Thai cell phone So maybe send me more numbers if you got them.
Yeah, I'll have an Italian number.
I'll send you that number.
Okay.
All right Hey, thanks so much for your time.
I really appreciate it.
Wonderful Scott.
Take care All right, everybody that's the great Pepe Escobar from the Asia Times that's a times.com And you can find articles like Libya the real war starts now
