Alright, y'all welcome back to the show.
It's anti-war radio And I got Chris Floyd back on the show.
He's the author of the book Empire burlesque, and that's the name of his blog, too It's at Chris dash Floyd comm Empire burlesque high crimes and low comedy in the American Imperial and the article in question today is called what lies beneath the essence of modern America in Somalia's blood-drenched soil Welcome back to the show Chris Hi, yeah good to be here.
Thanks.
It's great to talk to you again.
Never one for understatement And I'm so happy about that.
I think that you're exactly right But I want to hear it from you.
What is the essence of modern America?
And how do you find it in Somalia's blood-drenched soil Chris?
Well, I will have to disagree with you Ralph for start.
I do think I do a little bit too much of understatement.
I mean, it's really hard to state the reality of what's going on.
So You know, you can try as hard as you can you can be almost as scornful as you can but you're just not really going to touch the Depth of the violence that we're involved in but that aside What's going on Somalia as we you know, you know, I've talked about this many times here before Somalia has long been sort of a You know microcosm of the whole war on terror and as you know, and I'm sure most of your listeners know the war on terror Goes on unabated even if Obama has changed his name or doesn't use the name anymore but what's happening in Somalia as you know, as as it mentions in the article is if what we're seeing is the fruit of Now a decade actually more but let's say a decade a very hands-on American involvement in Somalia, which has driven it from I Mean from from one level of hell deeper and deeper to another level of hell You know just a quick capsule History the early right after to 2001 right after 9-11.
I'm sorry after 9-11 the Bush administration the American administration started Supporting warlords in Somalia, you know, they would the CIA started running their own favorite warlords in Somalia and Fomenting the sort of an anarchy free-for-all down there which brought on Which was brought on so much suffering so much destruction even in a country that's already been Basically destroyed for more than 10 years at that point That There came of these Islamic groups formed.
It was called Islamic Courts Union These were these were Islamic groups Islamist groups of different of different Huge, you know, there were one extremist group involved in this union and all the rest of them were moderate or Liberal groups, however, you want to say it?
But what they did was they got rid of the warlords and they and they imposed this sort of Islamic state Not an Islamic state like the Taliban, but it was it was under under Islamic law But what they did do, you know, I'm not saying it's a state that I would like to live in myself but what did happen was that they Introduced some peace and stability in Somalia for the first time at that time in almost 16 years In the article with my article draws very heavily on a wonderful article by Jeremy Scahill in the nation You know scale is a really top flight reporter.
He's been on the scene there, you know, I mean a lot of stuff I do I write about The work that these other guys like him do.
I mean, he's been on the scene.
He's talked to people and And But in any case what happened was the Islamic courts union were there and this is what the Americans just could not stand now They had peace.
They had some peace in Somalia.
They had stability in Somalia for the first time in 15 years as I said But and these Islamic courts union they had nothing to do with al-qaeda They had one group in there al-shabaab who were some extremists a very small group.
They had There might have been this is from the US intelligence.
There might have been a dozen Individuals in all of Somalia who had some sort of Affiliation or leaning or they thought about al-qaeda.
I mean, this is what had there but because the The ICU the Islamic Court Union was not they weren't in the pay of the United States They weren't like the CIA warlords like the warlords paid for by the CIA You know, they weren't our boys they just weren't ours, you know, and so they weren't our gang And so which is which is how the Americans would look at how the American elite would look at it And so what happened was is that the Bush administration?colluded with Ethiopia long time long time deadly enemies of Somalia, you know, it's just To to invade Somalia and Ethiopia invaded Somalia with with an army paid for Funded armed by the United States and with the United States taking direct part in the invasion with some bombing runs and Death squads coming in to kill people all sort of things which you know, which I've written about for years And of course the result of this was the usual hellish occupation You know Ethiopia was very brutal their occupation hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people were made refugees tens of thousands of people were killed And these things, you know, this is what this is what the American involvement brought about But So finally, but as you know Then the Bush administration is and finally Ethiopia pulled out and what you for all you had left in was Al Shabaab which was this very virulent extremist group Who were left in the field because we destroyed every other moderate influence.
We destroyed every other system of government We destroyed every other sort of pillar of society and as we've seen everywhere You know who goes into these boards and we destroyed Iraq society who came into the void well, there's extremist groups or sectarian groups and so Shabab has been waging a war against several groups and in Somalia, that's bad enough and then but when when Obama came in His policy has been to go back to the original policy which aiding warlords.
And so that's what we're doing right now It's called the dual track Policy and so-called dual track policy where Washington is both supporting the sort of this rickety government that's been propped up for years by some African Union troops and Also, but they've gone back to paying the warlords and now what's happening now that Shabab has been has retreated somewhat Some people say it's a tactical retreat.
Some people said they they're getting defeated But in any case what is happening has been reported by scale and also by the New York Times even some it's it's It's actually real because the New York Times has reported it Well, what we have is the re-emergence of this warlord state and And and this is all happening at a time Of course the one thing that people might know about Somalia from the last few months Is it's facing one of the most catastrophic famines of the century they've got according to the latest figures that could be 750,000 people at risk of death at the by the end of the year and of course this can't really be treated or Addressed properly because of the the chaos that's going on there so all of this step-by-step has been aided and been aided abetted or an Directed by American policy under Bush under Obama.
It's the same thing.
And of course it goes back further than that So this is what's happening in in Somalia.
We've had hundreds of thousands of innocent people killed.
We've got millions displaced over the last ten years last Since 2001 we've got We've got almost a million people on the edge of starvation we've got 400,000 refugees driven out of Somalia by the famine into Kenya where there's a one of these horrific tent cities in Kenya made up of Somalian refugees is now the third largest city in all of Kenya, so So what we have here as I said before as I say in articles we have this is but this is just this is the same Model, we've seen everywhere.
We've seen in Afghanistan.
We've seen in Somalia this this militarist intervention by the United States its imperial intervention in order to Impose our will or at least get our you know some willing tools and there's some willing puppets in there Leads to the collapse of societies and it leads of course to the to the growth of extremism the very things at all that our war on terror is supposedly ostensibly about But one thing I want to mention that the scale mentioned in his his article, which is very very telling I thought Was at one point now, of course, you know in the last couple of years.
We've had all these Quickly now, we're almost at this break.
Okay.
I just want to say we have a lot of diplomatic cables been released so quickly and There was a very telling Cable there that where the United States was saying when I see you came in it says they would not allow the ICU to rule Somalia so this to me is that the actual essence of the American Empire and is that you know Is the Washington itself decides who can rule and who cannot rule in what country?
And this is sort of the bedrock of what we're looking at.
That's right Yeah, they had a great piece of foreign policy and focus a few months back where it was made Absolutely clear that they twisted the arms of the Ethiopians and had them do it It seemed like obviously they had participated in the initial invasion But they really forced the war on the Ethiopians as well in the weekend.
Yeah.
Yeah, we'll have to hold it right here We'll be right back everybody with Chris Floyd from Chris Floyd comm the article is what lies beneath the essence of modern America in Somalia's blood-drenched soil All right, so welcome back It's anti-war radio.
I'm Scott Horton.
I'm talking with Chris Floyd at Chris Floyd comm The article is what lies beneath the essence of modern America in Somalia's blood-drenched soil And there's reference here to the last couple of pieces by the heroic Jeremy Scahill in the nation magazine That's the nation comm the latest is blowback in Somalia I'm in agreement with you Chris that this is the best one yet by anyone on this subject With so much information packed in here and you just gave The best summary of the history of what's going on here and what it all really means I think that I've heard in a while, although I might disagree with you About How bad things were in Somalia before?
September 11th and before the Americans started supporting the CIA it You know, they had obviously been through a lot since the fall of the American-backed communist dictator at the end of the 1980s but they had you know, the the greatest rate of growth in their economy With no central government at all.
And then as you say it was American support for the warlords then ended up Giving rise to the Islamic Courts Union in the first place now the Islamic Courts Union I believe or maybe this is a couple of steps back in the story Chris is part of the puppet Transitional government that the US and the UN are trying to install there And now they're left because the Ethiopians are gone now.
They're left trying to Hold on to the government that we're letting them have anyway But trying to protect it from the al-shabaab youth militia that really only rose up to help them drive the Ethiopians out Well, it's true.
What happened is it's not the whole ICU But it's the person who was the head of Somalia when the Ethiopians came in the head of the ICU at that time Is now the new president, you're right He himself, what happened of course the ICU fell apart in different places when the Ethiopians invaded But yes the man that the Americans and the Ethiopians invaded to get rid of in Somalia They have now put back in power in Somalia because he's not as bad as the people who took over when From what they unleashed as you said Al-shabaab.
Well, it's true.
I mean the main as you were talking about Somalia before 2001 it is true.
Here's the main thing that's true about Somalia and and why it is a microcosm Why it is and why it's important.
I mean beyond well That's the wrong way to put it beyond the actual human lives The human lives in Somalia that are just as important as you know The human lives in the United States just as important as the people who were killed on 9-eleven in America the people who are dying in Somalia today are just as important I just want to put that in there.
But one reason why Somalia is important in the bigger picture Is because it represents this very this principle this principle that has guided to the American Imperium if that's what I like to call it the American military system For decades now and it's the it's the it's the principle that People in other countries are not allowed to work out how they want to run their country as you know Somalia as you said Somalia was a lot of anarchy and things like this But they weren't allowed to work out how they want to run it, you know As you say perhaps in a lot of ways they were thriving, but they weren't allowed to To no one is allowed to work out their own destiny because this is can only be controlled by Washington because of this cult of Militarism and this cult of big money ism.
It's all of course.
It's all tied together There's money in militarism But this was really exemplified this a wonderful quote that scale got from the current mayor of Mogadishu But he's he's talking about what's happened now because we have the warlords rising again on purpose with the support the direct support of the Obama Administration they are paying these warlords to rise up and cause the same sort of hydra headed warfare in all directions But here's what he said about the militias, you know They're not fighting for a cause they don't want a system.
They want to keep that turf as a fixed post Then they didn't use a when the government comes week.
They won't say we control here and when I read that in scale Article it just struck me like a you know It struck me like a boat from the blue that here's was this was the perfect encapsulation of what?
Have been happening in American policy for these 40 50 60 years or 200 years if you look back far enough No, as I wrote, this is precisely the vision and this is precisely the goal that drives our you know humanitarian interventionist and our Neocons and everyone else who takes part of the American war machine is they want to say we control here And as I say an article this to me is the foundation stone of modern America It's what lies beneath it, you know, yeah that and no memory at all that and complete and total ignorance I always think of the quote from the French foreign minister Talley rand after the revolution about the Bourbons that they learn nothing and forgot nothing and in this case History and Somalia began the day before yesterday.
All of a sudden there's this all Shabab movement we have to go and do something about and No acknowledgement whatsoever and and really who can blame even the people in DC responsible for the policy They don't know the first thing about it.
The media won't cover it at all They don't know anything except what it says in their State Department reports and you know Apparently they can't even remember ones from a few years ago.
Now.
There's a problem with some group in Somalia now We're gonna have to begin intervening.
I think Chris.
Yes Of course, it goes over and over again.
I mean, I think you've got it's a it's a it's a dual track Just like the Obama policy You have amnesia, you know The United States of amnesia's and Gore Vidal's famous phrase Where no one remembers anything and no one retains anything as you say even up to the official level, but you also have You also have this guiding principle where of course this guiding principle is part of the amnesia It's like if you actually remembered what these things did maybe wouldn't do it But the guiding principle is that we have to control We have to say who rules and it's whoever rules needs to be in our ballpark if at all possible You know at any by any means necessary.
And so we see the same policies over and over and over again People talk about 9-elevens today to change the world.
Well, these are the same policies We've been seeing you since the end of World War two over again over and over again But it because you know whether people remember the effects or not In the general public, that's one thing They don't seem to remember thing but whether our policymakers remember the effects or not They still seem to me to be driven by the same principle and the principle is something as you say, I think It's something it's entered into their mind so deeply that they can't even see that the press was just that we have to control and They don't even question it.
That's one reason for them easy because they don't even question it You know, we have to control we have to control this we have to control we have to we have to control here and This is what drives them well, you know the thing is to I mean You know, I understand this is all in the propaganda or whatever but still I think there's a difference between going to war against Iraq That has the fourth largest army in the world that invaded poor helpless Kuwait back in 91 For example, obviously, that's just you know, the simple TV narrative or whatever but compare that to America at war with the smallest weakest most pathetic nation-state in the whole wide world Somalia the biggest bully ever the USA picking on the weakest little collection of people you could find on the planet and Then tell them again the numbers of the casualties here Chris Well, yes, we're talking about hundreds of thousands of people We're talking about hundreds of thousands of people killed in the last 10 years hundreds of thousands of human beings you know slaughtered by what these forces unleashed by My American policy and by what American policy has evaded but you will your trip because that's another that's another aspect So we have is America wants control our elites.
They seek control, but they will only pick on someone that they They won't fight back.
You see who can't fight back.
And so we yes, we had the war in Iraq We had the war in Afghanistan.
These are all you broke, you know, Iraq was already broken by our sanctions Afghanistan was already ruined and now Somalia these keep going down Yemen will be next Yemen is also a small state and so it's a Yes, of course we have you have You have the greatest military force in the history of the world Which is run by cowards who are cowards even by their own lives because they won't challenge the people who could actually strike back at them so it's um, it's a An unseemly situation to say the least.
Yeah.
Well, I don't want to give anybody any bad ideas or anything like that But I think it's worth pointing out that there have been somewhere near two dozen American Somali Americans who and and not even small Americans just American Muslims who have gone abroad to go and fight in Somalia and doesn't against the American side and It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to imagine that one of them could get the idea that maybe doesn't need to travel Across the world he could fight his side of the war right here and a couple more red alerts And that's it for even any pretense of a bill of rights in this society And that's the kind of fire that we're playing with doesn't have to be another 9-11 It could be a tenth of the strength of 9-11 But another real terrorist attack like if the Times Square bomb had like succeeded in Oklahoma City type fashion something like that Forget about the Bill of Rights forever No, absolutely.
Well, this is one thing that I noted in the article is that is all these policies in Somalia Especially in other places.
They're only building up hatred.
They're building up Just what you said in this desire for revenge and they're radicalizing people and we know this we know this Intelligence services will say this and I mentioned this is what we could be doing in Somalia as we're building up You know the mother of all blowbacks.
We've got Generations of hatred sprung from this unfathomable suffering that we've inflicted on these innocent people, you know And then the people in this is a thing that Americans don't seem to realize is that people on the receiving end of American policies They know where it's coming from.
They don't have amnesia.
They know the warlords in the pay the CIA They see the American drone missiles falling on their children, you know, they know what's going on.
We got People don't know.
Thank you very much.
Chris everybody.
Chris dash Floyd comm what lies beneath?
Thanks very much for your time.
Yeah, okay.
Good to talk with you
