All right, y'all, welcome back to the show.
It's anti-war radio.
I'm Scott Horton and our next guest on the show today is Francis Boyle, professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law.
Welcome to the show, Francis.
How are you doing?
Hi, Scott.
Thanks for having me on and my best to your listening audience and keep up that great work at antiwar.com.
I follow you guys every day.
Oh, great.
Thanks very much.
Appreciate that.
Um, well, we've had our own little run in.
Uh, apparently, uh, we're just finding out with the FBI, but, uh, let's talk about yours first.
I'm looking at a piece by Sherwood Ross at UK progressive.co.uk and I'm sorry, I'm not certain if this is where it originally ran, but it's called FBI CIA tried to get American lawyer to betray Arab and Muslim clients.
They tried to turn you against, uh, to be an informant against your own client, sir.
Is that correct?
That's correct.
Um, in the summer of, uh, 2004, uh, two agents showed up, uh, at my office, uh, identified themselves.
My secretary is, uh, uh, misrepresented themselves businessmen who wanted to, uh, talk to me about, uh, international law.
So, uh, you know, I let them into my office and they, uh, immediately identified themselves as agents with the FBI and the, uh, CIA FBI joint terrorist task force in Springfield, Illinois, uh, which is about a 90 minute drive from here.
So obviously, uh, this was sort of a heavy duty type, uh, uh, interrogation.
They interrogated me for, uh, one hour and, uh, repeatedly tried to get me to become, um, an informant on my Arab and Muslim clients, which I refused to do.
So they then went out and put me on all the United States government's terrorist watch lists.
Uh, according to my lawyer, there were five or six of them.
And as far as he could figure out, I was on all of them.
Uh, we tried to get me removed.
Um, uh, we appealed.
He, uh, was informed that there is no way I could get removed unless the two agencies that had put me on there, uh, removed me.
Uh, so I guess I'll be on there for the rest of my life.
However, the lawyer did, uh, make it possible for me to travel.
Uh, but I get, you know, hassled, uh, flew in from, uh, Malaysia and, uh, is lecturing there.
And there were two armed, uh, federal agents standing on the jet port, not even at the gate or something, uh, checking passports.
And, uh, when, uh, they saw my passport, they said, uh, you know, you're coming with us.
So they, uh, took me into custody, uh, two armed federal agents.
And, uh, one of them told me, uh, well, we're looking for someone on the terrorist watch list, but it's not you.
Well, how many, uh, Francis Anthony Boyles are there in the country?
So, you know, uh, coming back from Switzerland, uh, last Labor Day, uh, weekend where I was also, uh, lecturing, I was given a special personal screening in, uh, Switzerland before I could get on the plane.
And then when I landed at O'Hare, I was diverted to a, uh, special lane, uh, where I was kept standing for 45 minutes and, you know, repeatedly, uh, interrogated, uh, before they let me go.
So it makes one wonder whether there's a special notation there next to your name that says just harass him, right?
Not, not block him from everything or arrest him.
But there is no, I found that out when I was coming back from, uh, Canada, uh, where you go through, uh, immigration there.
And, uh, the guy even called in his supervisor to notice what was flashed on the computer.
I was taken aside then for about an hour and a half and interrogated and not just interrogated, but they had a special procedure whereby they took everything out of my, uh, the lease and my pockets and my wallet and deliberately, uh, put their fingers on everything in my wallet one by one, including pictures of my wife and my children, uh, just to show who's really in charge.
And that, uh, obviously, you know, we know you have wife and children too.
So yeah, there is a special notation there on the computer for me.
Well, that's just amazing.
You know, I, I have to wonder too about, I mean, just the fact that you're Francis Boyle, professor of international law.
And so that means, you know, you know, better, you understand the ins and outs of all the legal processes and you know, when to not say anything.
You know, when to wait for the supervisor to come over or what to answer, what not, whatever.
But what does a non-expert do under that same amount of pressure that they put you?
That's right.
I mean, obviously, uh, my guess is, uh, you know, a lot of people, uh, I was, as far as I can figure out, Scott, just researching this, that summer, 2004, I was on a special list of 5,000 Arabs, Muslims, and their supporters, uh, to be interrogated.
And I suspect they tried to turn all 5,000 into informants.
Now, of course, being a lawyer and a law professor, and of course it's a sacrilege.
This was done at a law school.
Now there's supposed to be special guidelines.
You need permission from the attorney general to mess around with lawyers, but apparently they didn't care.
I don't know.
Maybe they had approval from the attorney general.
I don't know.
But, um, the bottom line is, uh, I didn't become an informant.
Um, but how many on that list of 5,000 did become informants?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, being subjected to that type of, uh, that type of pressure.
Well, and really you got off lucky compared to say, for example, Jose Padilla, he refused to become an informant and they turned him over to George Tenet to be tortured.
Uh, well, something like that could happen, Scott.
As far as I could figure out this list of 5,000 is probably the list they will use for a mass roundup after the next major, uh, terrorist attack.
We know that those plans are in place.
We know that after, uh, nine 11, uh, Ashcroft rounded up 1200, uh, Arabs and Muslims, and many of them were abused.
So my guess is that the 5,000 is, is the working list for the next time.
I'm on that list.
Uh, well, and news this week has it that, uh, at least as of 2004, an FBI agent did a threat assessment recommending further investigation in antiwar.com under their counterintelligence counterterrorism powers to see if we're agents of a foreign power.
That's right around when I started working for antiwar.com.
I guess we have to assume the worst since those documents were written out.
I think you have to assume you're, you're on a list, uh, that you're, you know, your phone calls and emails are being intercepted and, uh, you know, you could be under the same cell after that.
Can I hire you to be my lawyer?
There will be no lawyer.
We'll be in a domestic Guantanamo legal black hole.
I don't believe there'll be a lawyer.
I think, you know, the, uh, these, uh, FEMA camps are already set up, um, and, uh, they're ready to go and the plans have been drafted.
Um, the, uh, Bush jr.
Administration, uh, at least twice said, uh, before, uh, Arab audiences, quote, the Korematsu case is still good law unquote, which is correct.
The Supreme court has never, uh, overturned Korematsu, which permitted the, uh, uh, internment of, uh, Japanese American citizens after world war two, the FEMA camps are there.
These camps are there under FEMA plans have been drawn up.
Indeed.
That goes back to the, uh, Reagan administration under attorney general Meece.
If you, if you look into it, research and all that, you'll see the nation published the expose on that.
So my guess is that, you know, that's probably what will happen in the event.
There is another major terrorist attack.
Now, as far as, uh, FEMA camps, I remember there being news about the money being appropriated to Halliburton for them to build some camps back, say about five or six years ago.
Uh, and certainly there are plenty of military bases and sports stadiums and train stations and whatever in America that could be used to that end.
But can you give me some more sourcing on, they actually have FEMA camps for this purpose.
Well, even before FEMA, sure.
During the, um, 1980s, uh, under Meece, uh, I was serving as a council to the, uh, national, uh, sanctuary movement for, uh, undocumented foreigners fleeing the, uh, uh, conflicts in Central America.
And, uh, we got word that camps had already been prepared to, uh, intern round these people up and intern them and others.
Uh, so one of our members, our board members was a minister actually went down and looked at one of these things.
So they are there.
Um, but you know, you'd have to do your own research on that.
Sure.
Well, I mean, the legal authority goes back to then, you know, the beginning of the cold war, I think Kennedy and Johnson, Nixon all had plans for such things.
But I just wonder about, it was more specific when he said they have camps ready to go, that kind of thing.
I want to know more about that.
If it's provable, I'd like to prove it, but, uh, hold it right there.
We got to take this break.
Unfortunately, we'll be right back.
Everybody with professor Francis Boyle after this.
General North, in your work at the NSC, were you not assigned at one time to work on plans for the continuity of government in the event of a major disaster?
Mr.
Chairman, I believe the question touches upon a highly sensitive and classified area, so may I request that you not touch upon that, sir?
I was particularly concerned, Mr.
Chairman, because I read in Miami papers and several others that there had been a plan, uh, developed by that same agency, a contingency plan in the event of an emergency that would suspend the American constitution.
And I was deeply concerned about it and wondered if that was the area in which he had worked, I believe that it was.
May I most respectfully request that that matter not be touched upon at this stage.
If we wish to get into this on certain arrangements can be made for an executive session.
All right.
So that there, uh, the last voice was Daniel Inouye, Senator from Hawaii, shutting down Jack Brooks, former Congressman from Texas, asking Oliver North back in the Iran-Contra hearings about his plan to suspend the constitution in the event of a major disaster.
And I believe that's what you were referring to before the break there.
Professor Boyle is, uh, Operation Garden Plot and Cable Splicer from back then.
They figured if there was a full scale war with Nicaragua, that a lot of left wing and Latino protesters would come out in the streets and they would need to round them up and put them in camps back then.
Is, do I have it about right?
That's correct.
Well, that, that's another issue that I believe was a presidential directive, uh, 58, but in addition, then, uh, Attorney General Meese, uh, had plans to, he had his own war against terrorism and, uh, uh, they apparently were preparing these, uh, these camps, these camps did precede, uh, FEMA.
And then I can't, I can't recall the exact date FEMA came in, but at least it goes back to the Reagan administration.
Right.
Mm hmm.
Well, and you know, there was a, an executive order 12919 back in the 1990s in the Clinton years that described the turning of America into a complete and total fascist dictatorship overnight, the nationalization of all resources, all medicine, all trade and travel and all the ports and all the everything, everything.
Although it seemed like, you know, you'd have to have hydrogen bombs going off for them to try a coup to that degree.
It certainly included, you know, um, uh, putting FEMA in charge of all police force activity in the entire country, uh, was part of it.
And I don't know, you know, to the degree or, you know, how those plans were changed under the Bush years or under the Obama years, but, uh, certainly only as a matter of degree, not a matter of quality, right?
I think that's correct.
I've never read that, uh, presidential directive 58 under Reagan, which did provide for, uh, uh, putting, uh, portions as they saw necessary of the country under martial law.
So, uh, I haven't read that's been revoked and my guess is there've been, uh, successors, uh, it's been ratified and refined by, uh, each successive administration since, uh, Reagan.
And especially after, uh, nine 11.
Well, and for a short time there, um, although the Congress reversed it, um, they had changed the insurrection act and the Posse Comitatus law, uh, to allow for more, uh, military intervention on the home front.
And even of course, this whole time, regardless of those technicalities, if that's what they are, uh, they've created this giant Northern command, this American theater of operations for our military got the third infantry division, just sitting in wait, according to Matthew Rothschild over there at the progressive magazine.
Uh, that's correct.
And you remember, uh, uh, general, uh, Tommy Franks publicly stating in the event of another, uh, major terrorist attack, they'll just put the country under martial law.
So I think, um, you know, we're right now living in a police state, whether people know it or not.
And indeed, uh, I mean, look at the way I was treated, look at today's, uh, big associated, uh, press story on the CIA working with the New York police force, even outside of the state of New York, up to, uh, Massachusetts, uh, today's New York times, FBI, CIA, there are no restraints.
The COINTELPRO was reinstated by, uh, Ashcroft, uh, after, uh, nine 11, all the rest about restraints is nonsense.
Um, so we are already in a police state, uh, and we are simply one major terrorist attack away from a military dictatorship, as I see it.
Right.
So even after nine 11, when Ashcroft used civilian police to round up Muslims and hold them as so-called material witnesses in violation of their rights and bending the law as far as he could, of course, uh, in doing so, uh, those people got lucky compared to what's going to happen to the people rounded up.
The next time there's an attack, we'll be placed in military custody.
And I don't want to include we, me and we here, but hell, I don't know.
Well, as I said, probably, uh, in these, uh, internment camps, right.
Sort of like, you know, what the, um, uh, military did to, uh, Japanese American citizens after, uh, world war two, that was a, uh, military, uh, order.
Uh, they were put in military custody and, um, that was approved by the United States Supreme court in the, uh, Korematsu case.
Uh, indeed, even I believe, uh, justice Jackson called them a concentration camps.
Um, and, uh, as, uh, Bush jr, uh, officials have said publicly, they believe Korematsu is still good law, which it is.
The Supreme court has never, uh, uh, overturned, uh, uh, Korematsu.
There is the, uh, uh, after all this, we do have the, uh, uh, non-detention act that, uh, is supposed to prevent, uh, another Korematsu, uh, against us citizens, but you know, I guess, you know, I think their attitude is we'll, we'll pick them up now and worry about litigating it later.
That's right.
They paid no, Obama's paid no attention to that.
He's, he's simply violated that.
And the, uh, uh, uh, war powers clause of the constitution, um, the testimony by his legal advisor, Harold Coe was shameless and a disgrace and unprincipled, uh, but what else is new?
So, I mean, if you're prepared to do that, you're really prepared to do anything.
Well now, you know, yeah, at that point that makes this next question kind of, you know, silly and naive in comparison, but I wonder whether specifically you could cite laws that they broke in the way that they interrogated you in your office and try to turn you as a snitch against your own clients, uh, is that illegal?
Clearly it, it violated their, their constitutional rights and my, uh, ethical obligations as a lawyer.
Uh, I believe there are department of justice, uh, guidelines, uh, for dealing with lawyers that obviously they didn't care about, but you know, I see no point in, you know, filing lawsuits over this.
It's pretty hopeless anyway.
Uh, and I just plan to carry on and continue to do my best to, to resist this police state and trying to prevent a military dictatorship.
Sure.
I see, you know, my, my, my fate has already been determined and I don't think the courts are going to make a hill of beans difference here.
So I'll just do what I can.
Well, it's so important, you know, that people realize even if the beer is still cold and the sky is still blue, that when there's a revolution in the law like this, what they can get away with, what's coming next for us can be worse than you imagine.
And, uh, the precedent's been set with the Jose Padillas of the world.
I appreciate all your efforts on this and thanks for standing up for yourself and for liberty.
Right.
They, they literally tortured a Padilla and got away with it.
And he was a U S citizen on a totally bogus manufactured evidence in case.
So he even, he even actually, they, he was so harmless.
They knew he was harmless.
They, but they thought he knew somebody.
They wanted to flip him and use him as an informant and put him right out on the street.
And when he refused, that's when they turned him over to be tortured.
That's correct.
And he was tortured in a military break here in the United States.
And they knew it was a U S citizen.
Even this Jack Goldsmith and his memoirs who now teaches at Harvard law school, which is disgrace or fraud, uh, saw, uh, Padilla curled up in a fetal position in his cell and did absolutely nothing.
Yeah.
And Johnny Ashcroft announced the whole program, turning him over to Rumsfeld and tenant from red square in Moscow.
That's correct.
With his bogus charges of a dirty bomb plot and apartment buildings to be bombed, et cetera.
That's right.
This is all lies.
Yep.
Well, precedent said anyway, right?
That's what's great.
The lie only has to seem credible for a day or two, and then they get away with whatever it is.
They don't care if we call them out later.
Well, we have to get organized and do the best we can to fight back, uh, Scott, cause otherwise, uh, we are, as I said, we're after nine 11.
It was sort of a, a de facto coup d'etat here in America by, uh, what in the Soviet union, they used to call their power ministries, ministry, defense, CIA, uh, national security council, national security agency, uh, FBI, uh, and then later they created this monstrosity department of Homeland security.
Uh, so that is really what we are facing now.
And we are one step removed one major terrorist attack away from, uh, martial law, uh, which means military dictatorship.
That means, you know, military people going around in the streets, um, with weapons.
Yeah.
Obey or be shot.
No arresting.
Right.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, I'm sorry.
We are over time and I, uh, have to end the conversation here, but I really appreciate your time on the show.
I hope we can do it again.
Well, thanks again.
Well, I guess we'll see what happens.
Yeah.
All right, Scott.
Well, thanks.
Keep up, keep up that, uh, uh, great work and, uh, my best to, uh, Garris, Raimondo and all the others there at, uh, any word.com.
Thanks very much.
I'll pass that on for sure.
Sure.
Bye.
Bye.
