All right y'all welcome back to the show It's anti-war radio Our next guest is bruce fine He was associate deputy attorney general and general counsel to the federal communications commission under ronald reagan's presidency He is the author of american empire before the fall.
Maybe that should have been called during the fall and constitutional peril the life and death struggle for our constitution and Democracy, welcome back to the show bruce.
How are you?
I'm doing well.
Thank you Well, I appreciate you joining us today.
Uh, the new piece at the huffington post is our spotlight article today on anti-war.com President obama's political sepulcher.
That is his tomb, correct?
That is correct.
His uh tombstone.
Yeah And uh the point being there, uh, the war in libya.
This is the thing the straw that broke the camel's back you think?
Well, it's a combination uh, the war in libya I think is the crossing of the rubicon in the unlimited unilateral presidential war that has brought all Empires to ruination.
It's just a symbol of of uh, the inclination of empires to go to war For no reason whatsoever other than to dominate for the sake of domination sort of the juvenile thrill of being a bully on the playground Uh, it's combined with his persistence of our troops in afghanistan I'm highly doubtful that our troops will leave iraq by the end of the uh year because the country is on the precipice of civil war and sectarian fracturing And it will appear as though all of our hundreds of billions and thousands of soldiers who have died did so for nothing I suppose if you want to count success as anything an improvement on saddam hussein That's sort of about the lowest threshold of success.
You could Establish, but it's not much above that and moreover our Obligation as a country isn't to make other countries that free and uh, uh and democratic that's for their own people to establish, but I say that the libya is a situation where we really have now a President who even to some degree more than bush and cheney have engaged in the orwellian discourse that Wars peace and peace is war words don't mean anything and irs had reached its high water mark When the president through his state department legal counsel harold co insisted we have no hostilities against libya Because we don't have any troops on the ground and our pilots are not in imminent danger Which I have pointed out that means that if in lieu of those predator drones We launched icbms with nuclear warheads from the united states to incinerate every living thing in libya It wouldn't be hostilities under president obama and harold co's definition of what constitutes hostilities for purposes of the war powers, but that's just one example of how Language has uh has been totally compromised just the way george orwell contemplated in 1984 Well, and you know chalmers johnson used to say uh, if you take the the roman empire and the british empire as examples that Really you either when it comes to this point Anyway, this is where we are where we either give up our empire or we live under it and more and more it seems like uh, you know, the kind of martial law that the people of iraq live under is the kind of uh, Power that's wielded against the americans.
I mean usually it's the local sheriff's department, but they're still paramilitary forces Basically being used against the american people all the time people in trap for terrorism cases when they obviously never had anything to do With al-qaeda, etc, etc uh impunity for torturers It seems like we're bringing our empire home rather than like the english did after world war ii saying All right well we rather keep our parliamentary system and our basic rights here in our on our rainy little island than Import the kind of tyranny it would take to enforce the the payment for the empire, uh to continue it Well, that that's right scott.
It was uh, james madison said if we suffer a destruction of a republic at home It'll be from the concocted effort or danger of uh tyranny from abroad the british.
However, I think uh, we're they had their um shriveled empire and Forced on them.
I don't think their human nature is any different than ours or other any other empires They simply didn't have the wherewithal to maintain their their empire.
You remember winston churchill said he didn't preside over the Uh, the british to uh dismantle the queen's empire in world war ii So I don't want to give the british credit for somehow seeing the light they were forced to accept over their Their stupidity a wiser course of action and maintaining their parliamentary system and uh and shedding their empire but anyway at least they They were finally willing to accept their diminished stature and to my mind scott The the equal if not more important matter is uh, you know empire Is tells more about who we are than who we are dominating and as lincoln said he didn't want to be a slave He didn't want to be a master.
We as a republic were founded on the principle We did not want to be colonized.
We did not want to be a colonizer We did not want to dominate other people.
We did not want to go abroad in search of monsters to destroy Our goal was to limit our influence if you will by the force of example We want to perfect our system here with equal protection with due process with scrupulous fairness for all of our citizens Those who would like to win nobel prizes are free to volunteer their services abroad in the congo in bahrain and syria elsewhere They're free to do so but the government of the united states has only an obligation to protect its own citizens Here at home from attack and hostilities The reason is not because we're callous and we aren't human beings that recognize You know for whom the bells toll it tolls for thee, but because we understand that government never acts for altruistic motives it always will degrade any effort for political purposes And even if you think you're starting out on some noble mission, it always degenerates Into just power, uh politics makes right and that's why the government should never be in the business Projecting its its authority abroad unless we are in fact attacked Otherwise, we need to stick to our own business be open be transparent Make our system as perfect as possible and it will have an influence abroad Better the influence that comes from the head of a bayonet which just yields resentments and retaliation against the united states well now people can draw their line at mexico or at you know, the cold war or maybe the the war with spain or wherever they like for the The real dawn of the american empire the crossing of the rubicon and the discarding of the rule of law I guess i'd really put The the real end of it at truman sending troops to korea in the middle of the night and not being removed from office For it was basically, you know the beginning of presidential impunity in terms of the war power but I wonder if you think that You know now that they've ruined everything so badly that maybe You know out of the crisis the opportunity can be taken to get back to the idea that there is a law that binds the power of these people that maybe we can Roll back the empire in a ron paulian way because it's the right thing to do and and do it immediately and do it deliberately Rather than you know suffering, uh through the same fate as say the soviet union where everything just falls apart, you know Well, we surely have that opportunity scott.
We you know in some sense the the architecture of law has remained, you know untarnished It's simply a lack of political will the founding fathers expected that presidents would overreach But they fully expected that congress would respond and that if their power of war was usurped they would respond to that subversion of the constitution by impeachment or at least by Cutting off all funds for the president to undertake an unconstitutional war What they could not contemplate is the lack of political will in the co-equal branch of government We call the congress of the united states is turned into an effete, you know invertebrate institution That uh makes a protest from time to time But really does nothing muscular to retain any of its powers that have all migrated over into the oval office And they are not going to do anything unless the american people shout and and complain and say we will not elect you to office Unless you discharge your responsibility to chain in the president We don't want to go abroad in search of monsters to destroy unless you do something to stop the wars We're going to vote you out of office Remember members of congress act out of fear not out of love for the constitution They act out of political fear and if the citizens don't inject that fear into them They're just going to go along like they've done so often in the last decade They'll just sort of wave at the constitution as it goes over to the white house It doesn't matter what they read it on the floor of congress Most of them don't understand what it means Anyway, or otherwise they go through the histrionics When push comes to shove and they've got to take votes on these things right now They flinch, you know that I had a debate Several months ago.
So actually, you know what?
You know what bruce hold it right there We've got to go out and take this break and we'll hear about this debate And uh about possible impeachment of our current emperor, uh on the other side of this break It's bruce fine author of american empire before the fall His new piece at the huffington post is the spotlight on anti-war.com today We'll be right back All right, y'all welcome back to the show it's anti-war radio I'm scott horton.
I'm talking with bruce fine.
He's the author of the american empire before the fall And his new piece in the huffington post is the spotlight today on anti-war.com president obama's political sepulchre He may have pushed this empire thing a bit too far and now when we were going out to break bruce You were about to tell us an anecdote about a speech.
He gave recently.
Is that right?
Well, this was a debate that I had with john yu Who was the one who suggested after 9 11?
The laws of the united states did not apply to the president if he stated Uh disobedience to the law helped fight the war against international terrorism but in any event The reason for my bringing this up is to underscore how weak any feat congress has become he said I have no reason to dispute him on this score Uh that when the administration presented the authorization to use military force in afghanistan the iraqi war resolution The members of congress were angry that the president wanted them to actually vote on the use of force And they would rather have them just to act unilaterally because then they could sit in carp and and complain if things didn't go right And they didn't want to vote on the war issue, which is truly stunning That's why they're elected the most important decision a country makes is to go from peace to war which makes What's customarily murder legal the most important issues make and the members didn't even want to vote And that's just as an example of how uh, the united the united states congress has totally forfeited You know its obligations and responsibilities for checks and balances and making these major decisions and and simply watching as the president usurps their authority, but I say That that congress is not going to change unless the citizenry is prepared to throw them out of office For their indolence and disrespect for their constitutional duty Well, you know henry hyde actually was the chair of the foreign affairs committee in the house And when ron paul introduced a declaration of war against iraq, which he made it clear He would vote against but he tried to put them up to it henry hyde who had presided over the judiciary committee When it was time for the articles of impeachment against bill clinton is how concerned Your articles of impeachment against bill clinton is how concerned he was about the rule of law back in 1998 But in 2002 he told ron paul that the constitutional power of the congress to declare war is an anachronism And we just don't go by that Section anymore and that makes me actually it brings up what you just said about the the congressman having their feet put to the fire by the people in mass about this issue and forcing them to do the right thing and I wonder whether Whether that's all just an anachronism now whether you think there's really enough democratic process left in this country I mean face it the congressmen need those votes But they need the military industrial complex money to buy the tv ads to get the votes.
So, uh, they're pulled They I mean assuming an anti-war population they're being pulled in two very different directions right there Well, they are on the other hand, um, the voter still is the one that goes into the ballot box uh, and the voter doesn't necessarily have to believe all the Blather that comes out on these advertisements that typically are denuded of a single cerebral thought um And and that's what I say even even the money can't necessarily it has an enormous influence But it's not always the trump card nelson rockefeller didn't get elected all the money Uh in the world, I don't think I could necessarily get michael bloomberg elected even if he spent it all on his own campaign Uh, I don't want to understand.
I mean downplay its influence and still the american people are not so stupid that they can just be brainwashed And american people can see how irresponsible congress is and I think that was in Since got one reason why so many members of the tea party Were elected is simply because of disgust with what they could see was the sellout of the incumbents there Uh, and but that's that's the system that we've got and we've got to live with it And it's really just a matter of leadership Wherever it comes from to tell the people he'll throw the bumps out But you have to be serious about this exercise in democracy, it's not just voting I mean democracy is a seven day a week job.
You've got to be out there criticize You've got to be out there and comment and encourage and persuade and protest after all the uh, the the new cycle and and power doesn't uh, Doesn't ever suspend itself people will work 24 hours a day to get more power and more money And you've got to be there as a watchdog to try to prevent it Uh, it may be an obligation that some people won't want to bear but it's the obligation.
It's the price Of a democratic republic as opposed to succumbing to vassalage and serfdom And that's got to be the the highest and best good of a citizenry instead of being infatuated by american idol or the football games Or where the olympics are going to be or what's going to happen with lindsey lohan or the any of the other wretches that are Out there and that uh, those are juvenile motivations the highest motivation in democracy is virtue and wisdom And the process itself has to be the reward and that's in my judgment what we have lost as a political culture As the restrictions on governmental power have been ignored and all that As you say the forms of the law are all still there article one section nine is still there even if it's inoperant right now the bill of rights is still there even if it's inoperant right now and one part of the constitution that actually uh exists still is I mean, I don't know how how close it is to the way the founders would have it now, but uh, The fact that there are 435 separate congressional districts They haven't figured out a way to make it one district per state appointed by the governors or anything like that yet And that's a lot of little districts for the people to be able to know their congressman put pressure on their congressman control the actions of their congressman if they really mean to And that and and it also means that it's too many to control from k street, right Well, that is right And and that's why you know Then virtually all the members have local district offices and they do respond you show up in their offices You write it could be an email, but anyway something that's thoughtful and you're active They clearly pay attention to that I had my kids were interns in the congress and they were a little bit stunned at how closely attention uh was paid to a constituent mail at that time it was before the the age of the internet, but The uh, the internet is anything ease the ability of of constituents to communicate their ideas and thoughts But you've got to be active out there No power does not yield to anything but a demand from the constituents, you know, give it back exercise responsibility And I understand everybody looks at the bottom of mount everest or something and looks so hard.
We're all just one Individuals out of a huge cosmos, you know 300 and some million population But that should not be a discouraging fact all great movements begin with just a few people with courage and willingness and tenacity To stick it out without an immediate reward.
That's what adulthood is You know, it's juvenile to say unless I get rewarded the next five minutes.
I'm not going to do it And and that's I say that it's the price of democracy at this price of of self-government that you know We should be willing to pay it gives us pride as individuals that we control our own destiny We don't just have you know, one person who tells us how we ought to act and behave Uh, and and treating us like we're his little or her little minions Uh, they say it's a pride that's not taught anymore in the in the civic textbooks and in the classrooms in school anymore We don't have any heroes and those who fought, you know, indeed in our own lifetime The civil rights movement just filled with heroes like that Whether it's rosa parks or the freedom riders or martin luther king the little kids who are getting Posed and cattle prods down in the south.
You know, that was courage.
That's democracy at its finest It's unfortunate that we had to overcome the racism, but still the process itself was ennobling and that's what we lack today I mean the usurpations the wrongs, uh, they're not racial ones so much But they're still equally wrongs against the people or privacy the illegal spying that for the flouting of due process And where's the protest?
I mean it really it's a disgrace the legal community just sits there in silence, you know Anything we have a former dean of yale law school harold ko the legal advisor Going up to congress and say what we're doing to libya is not hostilities I mean, it's embarrassing to see these arguments made This is the best and the brightest out of our legal community that formerly had its honor With john adams defending the the british soldiers accused wrongly in the the boston massacre And that was viewed as a heroic, uh effort, even though it was unpopular at the time Are you uh signed on to the come home america dot us project there the letter to the congress and the president about the empire?
Well, i'm not sure whether i'm not That most of them to my mind scott are too weak.
I mean if I had my way Um, if I was elected i'd bring home all the troops from korea japan germany There wouldn't be a single soldier stationed abroad every one of them would be back in the united states and all that would in in the pace would be dictated by the number of Of cargo planes and passengers to get the troops out no waiting whatsoever this idea Well, you know troops should come out faster instead of waiting 12 years.
We should only wait seven I mean, that's ridiculous.
We should be out in every one of those places It would be stunning.
I'm, sorry wouldn't be attacked.
Go ahead.
I'm, sorry We're we're running really short on time But I I do think that this uh come home america dot us project is the best hope that we have for a real uh coalition real anti-imperialist league real america first committee real hardcore, uh coalition based bipartisan and Nonpartisan anti-war movement in this country.
I I at least urge you to check it out I I certainly will do that.
I'll do that because we have to leave it there Uh, and and uh, we're already over time, but I really appreciate your time on the show bruce All right.
Listen, thanks scott.
You have a good afternoon.
You too.
Thanks again.
Bye.
Bye everybody That's bruce fine.
The book is american empire before the fall and his new piece at The huffington post is the spotlight article today on anti-war.com president obama's political sepulcher
