Alright y'all welcome back to the show It's anti-war radio I'm Scott Horton and our next guest on the show today is Michael Shoyer He's the former chief of the CIA's bin laden unit from 96 to 99 and then I think again for a little while after September 11th Or for a few years.
He's the author of through our enemies eyes Imperial hubris why the West is losing the war on terrorism That was the one that made the big splash Marching toward hell America and Islam after Iraq and the brand new one is Osama bin Laden Which I haven't had a chance to read yet, but it's definitely going on my list.
Welcome back to the show Mike How are you?
I'm fine Scott.
Thank you for having me Well, I really appreciate you joining us here on the show you have a very interesting perspective that I think is very worthwhile for people to hear and You know, I guess before we get into Libya specifically and all that I wanted to talk about your basic thesis as you've put it out over the years is Ultimately, I think if I can boil it down tell me if I'm right or wrong this fight with terrorism So called this fight against al-qaeda or their motivation for attacking us.
It's not about Islam.
It's about retribution reaction from American support for dictatorships in the Middle East and military occupation of countries in the Middle East human Politics earthly politics not virgins in heaven promised to some doofus Well, I think that's right I think the motivation is that what we do not who we are how we think but I do think it's important to realize that It is a religious war from their perspective because they regard our Foreign policy and its impact whether it's support for the Saudis or support for the Israelis or occupation as an attack on their faith And so they're responding to that What's a lunacy is what our presidents tell us is that they're attacking us because my daughters go to university or because we have primary elections all right, so put in context then if you could the protests and the killings in Afghanistan in this last week as a reaction to this pastor in Florida burning a Quran it well It's a very good example of why People who want to intervene overseas should just mind their own business The First Amendment is not a universal truth It is a it is a it is a sanction or a protection rather for the American people in many parts of the world blasphemy is still a crime and That's it with the way.
It's viewed in the Muslim world.
So I think Unless we intend to make every Afghan into a good secular Democrat, we ought to realize that the actions we take Have different impact In in the Islamic culture than they do in our own, you know, how many times as a Roman Catholic I read You know twice a week in The Washington Post what I what a rat I am and I don't get up and shoot somebody because that's their right to talk But it's not received the same way in the Muslim world Hmm so we're in the West we talked about, you know The influence of Halliburton the influence of Lockheed the influence of the Israel lobby the the other, you know war profiteers and you know politicians you see, you know for example the Iraq War part of the motivation is just Karl Rove's thinking on how to get guaranteed that Bush gets reelected in 2004 things as simple as that or what have you as we debate all these different kind of reasons for waging these over here over there the people on the receiving end are being told at least by those who would attack the United States with terrorism that the Reason we're doing this is because they're Muslims and that that's no matter what excuse we use whether it's liberation or domination Or anything else what we're really about is trying to destroy Islam That's what they're recruiting pitch is basically the same way the Newsmax tells us that these people are trying to come here and install Sharia law and destroy Christendom in America, you know Well over time that may happen with with some groups may try it but of course it's not going to work but the the war we're engaged in is because of what we do and What we as a people need to decide is whether what we do is necessary to our security if it is Then we have an endless war on our hands If it isn't we can deflect the violence back to where it belongs which is Muslim versus Muslim and Muslim versus Israeli Well now I mean am I right though that that's the narrative that they push is that whether you're yes, you're a Sunni or whatever We're coming for you.
Just because you're Muslim.
We want to destroy your country and your society on their faith That's exactly right in it and it's not just a recruitment pitch Scott we now have 15 years after bin Laden declared war a large body of Reliable polling material in the Muslim world and 80% of Muslims across the world not just in the Arab world regard u.s.
Foreign policy as an attack on their faith and So as long as our policy stays the status quo, we will be we will be doing the recruiting for al-qaeda and its allies And now so I mean, I know that your point isn't that you know Those are the lumps if if you're doing something that you got to do, right?
Your point is we don't have to be doing these things, right?
You know not though not that you ought to take as Fox News would say you're marching orders from bin Laden But just you ought to do what makes sense You ought to do what's best for America in all cases You know that if that's not the organizing principle of our government of our political system Then what's the point of having this system we have?if it's It's just insane.
I think to have any other principle like putting an Americans at risk to support Israel or Putting Americans at risk to where the next war will be which is in Bahrain in protection of the Saudis That that's really an insane way to run a government and I guess let's talk about Libya What do you make of the intervention in Libya after all if bin Laden's messages that the Americans always just support?
Dictatorships in the Middle East isn't it a great idea for the Americans to do the opposite and support the rebellion instead Michael Scheuer?
Well, the rebellion is made up primarily of people who fought either with or alongside of al-qaeda and it's in it And it's forces elsewhere in the world Whether it was in the Balkans or Chechnya Somalia Afghanistan or Iraq or Yemen, so they'll really appreciate that that we're fighting their war for them Well, I think they do appreciate the fact that we're we are providing air cover for our enemies I think that's that's probably exactly right, but the real option was not to get involved at all The problem we have Scott is we we have structured our foreign policy in the Middle East for nearly half a century on the maintenance of tyranny and In order to get access to oil Easily and cheaply in order to protect Israel and in order to have those tyrannies persecute and jail Islamist militants and now that was never a bad idea But now we're cheerleading the destruction of that system with no other system to go to and it's it really is very unusual to see a government cheering on a Disaster for its own foreign policy.
So it's a very difficult situation.
I think to understand Well, they can't be honest about it and say look our job is To maintain a world empire and support all these dictatorships.
Oh, no, this is happening to us They got a in fact I think this is really the motive for the Libya intervention more than anything else is to try to break the narrative that uncle Sam Is the bad guy in each and every one of these revolutions?
Well, I think they're trying to do that But unfortunately two things happen in the Libyan case We are once again bombing Muslims with oil And so whatever we say about NATO being in the lead or we want to help the resistance The reality that people are seeing on TV in the cost of Muslim world Is that we're again bombing Muslims and that that's kind of a self-defeating endeavor and on the second point is it it's just I Think it's more than just trying to change the narrative.
I think Obama McCain Lindsey Graham Clinton and that really crazy woman at the UN Susan Rice They're almost like Marxist Leninists in their belief That democracy ultimately will conquer the whole world and we'll all be secular Democrats And I really think that Obama believes and that crew believe that they can force on 1.4 billion Muslims the same kind of pagan society we have in this country.
It's the white man's burden.
We gotta do it It's a hard job, you know You gotta be careful of that.
I use that regard to Obama a couple times and boy I've had people come out of the woodwork at me, but that's exactly what it is.
Well, look I mean, it's not a joke about his race or whatever.
That's his job He sits in the White House and he does what all presidents do and there's not a change in policy here It's no there is no difference between the two parties and policy.
And I think that's why mr Paul is so important and to a lesser extent but still important is Dennis Kucinich There is no difference on foreign policy between Republicans and Democrats They want wars to spread democracy and we need somehow to stop that Well now so talk about Bahrain cuz like you just said they're gonna intervene to protect King Hamad Khalifa there, huh?
Yeah, I think it's very clear that the Saudis and the Kuwaitis and the rest of the Gulf Cooperation Council have decided they will not tolerate a Shia government on the peninsula and they'll kill as many she is as they if they need to to prevent that Well an Obama doesn't want to give up on the monarchy there either well, we can't you know, that's the most That's another important thing for Americans.
We are in a master-slave relationship with the Saudis and we are the slave We are dependent on the oil they produce we and our allies and we're also dependent next to China on them buying our debt and so what will happen is Although we we sell billions and billions of dollars of guns to the Saudis The Saudis can can mow down unarmed people, but they can't defend themselves So if things in Bahrain blow up the question will be Will Iran will Iran come to the rescue of its co-religionists?
And if they do we will have to defend the Saudis and then every all bet they're off Wow, yeah, I was thinking I guess, you know regime change in Syria is the most likely way to get into a war with Iran Here, but I was overlooking that Yeah, I wore for right just like Charles Kruth hammer and all those guys always push for Well, you know It's very interesting because that's what Krauthammer and and Bill Kristol and the rest of the neocons are after right now They're after war with Iran and and if they can get it through Syria That's fine by urging regime change or if they can get it by going to the to the assistance of the Saudis They really don't care.
They only care about Israel, man We're really in trouble when we got a yearn for the good old days of intelligent American nationalist types Like the big new Brzezinski or something, you know He told the US Senate that look if we have a war with Iran, you see what that means?
That means we'll basically and you can throw Jordan in there will fall We'll be occupying all the land between the Jordan River and India.
We can't do that Well, if you if you're if you have a Marxist Leninist mind frame and you believe that democracy is inevitable You might just regard it as sort of an interim uncomfortable period but you'll you'll prevail in time and So you will go to war but now I have to admit I do I do kind of believe that you know the ideas of the American Declaration of Independence For example really are supreme and really in a real free market of ideas around the world Would could eventually win out but the problem is you can't sell somebody on the ideas of You know, John Locke second treaties on civil government while you're blowing their bodies apart with cluster bombs You know that they don't have a chance to just hear it straight to hear it voluntarily Hey, wouldn't it be better if it was just assumed that every single human owned themselves and it wasn't okay to enslave them We don't we all want the whole world to believe that you know Well, I don't care if they believe it or not.
Really Scott, you know I I do believe that the founders intended those as universal truth or at least as eternal truths But I don't think any of them ever thought that it was the responsibility of the United States to be anything but a model for the world not the imposer of the of the Declaration of Independence on everybody from Morocco to Pakistan yeah, well or the imposer of a monarchy like, you know, the British Empire either.
Well, that's right That's right.
It's completely it what you know, what could be worse from a Muslim's viewpoint?
See a Muslim country with oil being bombed by France Britain in the United States It's like the imperial powers of the last three centuries have gotten together once again to gang up on the Islamic world Yeah, well and the thing is, you know, somebody wrote in the comments on anti-war calm recently that you know for all our empires malevolence They're so bad at it.
It's like Darth Vader falling down the stairs.
He said yeah, we're not we certainly aren't good at it Yeah Anders in the chat room just said Obama's making Bush look like Sun Tzu right now You know, he does he makes Bush look like a genius and I'll tell you again I'll tell you Scott if we get attacked again in our country Obama will make Bush like look like an ACLU lawyer Because he won't have anything to respond against militarily.
He'll double down on American citizens Yeah, well, I'm telling you the next red alert.
I don't know all bets are off They got the 3rd Infantry Division active for the Northern Command right now I mean, I don't know exactly how they think they intend on using it But they sure seem to be preparing for the worst around here Well, they've let it go on long enough.
Haven't they to have it become the worst?
Well, we've seen the terror war the rules of the terror war come home and apply to the people like Bradley Manning You know who's being treated with sort of Guantanamo?
Junior type treatment in his brig awaiting trial More and more, you know, they ruled today that they won't have trials for the plotters They'll keep them down at Guantanamo and all these things.
So You know if all these same rules apply to American citizens That's part of having this war on terror go on so long is all these policies that John you came up with To apply in this or that circumstance it ends up where it could apply to any of us it really if they feel like it right Well, I suppose it may but we support Egypt's dictatorship and we end up importing their system to the way we do things here Well, it all it all comes back to to to what we're doing Scott We may have trouble with some of our own citizens But what we really have trouble with is our Muslim community and not because they're not good people or loyal citizens But because they have the same view of our foreign policy Unfortunately as their brethren in the Middle East do and what's happening as long as we remain Maintain the status quo and foreign policy in the Middle East We will radicalize and recruit for al-qaeda and other groups in the United States Major Hassan the fellow that was going to blow up the subways in New York None of them had any dislike for u.s.
Culture or u.s.
Society.
They were doing it because we were occupying Iraq All right, we're out of time so quick yes or no Do you ever have nightmares about what it's going to be like the repercussions from all this 30 40 100 years from now?
I think sooner than that my night my nightmares are focused on my six grandchildren And I think their generation is going to pay a horrible price for this.
That's Mike Shoyer.
The book is Osama bin Laden We'll be right back
