All right, y'all.
Welcome back to the show.
It's anti-war radio.
Our next guest is Walter Jones.
He's the U S representative for North Carolina's third congressional district since 1995, and, uh, is a member of the Republican party.
He serves on the armed services committee and the financial services committee.
Uh, he's also part of Ron Paul's Liberty caucus in the house of representatives.
Welcome back to the show.
How are you doing?
Scott?
I'm doing well.
Thank you for the opportunity.
And, uh, I really hope that your listeners will join us and try to get our kids out of Afghanistan.
Well, uh, you know, uh, this morning before the show, I was watching, well, I'm still kind of watching C-SPAN here, but, uh, uh, I was actually, I had a chance to listen to before the show started and, uh, I caught a bit of your speech, uh, about, uh, why you support, why you co-sponsored Dennis Kucinich's bill, uh, which was under debate this morning, uh, about, uh, getting the troops out immediately.
Uh, in fact, I'm rewinding my DVR and queuing up your, a little bit of your talk right here.
Uh, so I guess, uh, you had a few major points, uh, in that speech, uh, that you cited as to why it was that you're so determined to see Dennis Kucinich's legislation through and to really make a difference in ending this war.
Let me share with you as the debate, Dennis Kucinich is a friend.
He gave me 30 minutes of his one hour.
So I really did appreciate it.
I had, uh, uh, speakers to come up, uh, Republicans that are agree with us.
One being Jason Chavez, Chavez, excuse me, from Utah, uh, Ron Paul, Dana Roybalka, and Jimmy Duncan.
And I know there are others that will vote with us that just couldn't get to the floor.
Um, the whole thing is when, you know, what really bothered me, Scott, is that I attended the hearing yesterday with, uh, uh, General Petraeus and I three weeks ago heard, uh, Secretary Gates.
And I have great respect for both of them, make it clear, but they now are talking about a substantial reduction in the troop size in Afghanistan, beginning in 2014, we're in 2011 right now, March of 2011, and that's three more years.
How many kids have to be killed and lose their legs for a corrupt government?
Karzai doesn't even have any appreciation for what we're doing for him over there.
All he wants is the money from the American taxpayer.
Well, and, uh, you know, we were talking with Robert Naiman earlier and, uh, he had a quote from the head of the DIA who apparently testified last week.
I'm not sure if it was in front of your committee.
Uh, but he was saying that, yeah, the violence is up, but, uh, you know, the idea that that means we're making progress just is not the case.
The number of resistance fighters has not diminished.
The more we kill, apparently the more there are.
Well, Scott, that's true.
And, you know, several members who have served in the military and some in Iraq and Afghanistan, and God bless them, and, you know, came to the floor and said, well, we've been there.
Most of you have not served that type thing.
So as I concluded, uh, I, I made mention, I think I've said this on your show before, I can't say his name cause I don't have permission, but a Marine general that is well-respected, he's now retired.
Let me make that clear to your listeners.
Uh, he has been advised me for the last 14 months.
And I actually read a couple of his emails to me and, and I made the statement as we were getting to close the debate that I have not served, but I want to say thank you to the members in Congress who have served this nation and to those overseas who are serving.
But for those of us that did not serve like I have done, I reached out to a general who is now retired for advice.
And his advice is, you know, you can't win as a corrupt government.
And what have you won if they say you did win?
Are we going to build the streets in Afghanistan and build their schools when we are closing our schools and can't fix our roads?
Where does it make any sense?
And then you fact in the most important thing, we're sending our young kids to die and lose their legs.
Well, and that's been your most compelling argument.
I think it's one that I would think that all Americans, no matter their politics would agree with the premise that you know, the people, especially, you know, young people right out of high school, joining up the military, they're basically deferring, especially sir, to you, but really to all of us that you know, we, the people in control of our democracy and what have you will only do the right thing and risk their lives and have them kill people when it's absolutely necessary that we won't just throw their lives away on some sand pit on the other side of the world for nothing.
And it seems to me like everybody, even Petraeus recognizes that they can't have a clear cut victory here that he'll have to negotiate his way out of there.
I'm not sure if he reiterated that to y'all the other day, but he said so numerous times in the past.
And so what are we doing?
It's a betrayal.
Scott, the whole issue is, has been said to me by many in the military, both active duty and, and, and retirees.
If you don't have an end point to your war strategy, you have no strategy.
So all we're doing is digging a hole deeper and deeper in Afghanistan.
And, and that means more blood and more treasure, and we don't see an end to dig in the hole.
I mean, I'm like you, I mean, for goodness sakes, I know I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but you know, for goodness sakes, something's just a common sense.
Well, you know, it's obvious that there are, uh, you know, uh, ideologues who support empire for its own purposes.
And, uh, there are, you know, certain interests, you know, like say Lockheed or whatever, who, uh, you know, lean at least as best they can toward particular policies, uh, and, uh, you know, have whatever degrees of influence.
But, you know, I wonder whether your fellow members of Congress actually really just believe all this hype, this, uh, you know, these basically, uh, you know, paper thin slogans about supporting the troops when really what they're talking about is risking their lives for nothing.
Well, you're right, Scott.
The only way I can answer that, I obviously have friendships in both parties and I treasure those friendships, but, uh, too many times, I think, uh, it's just like, uh, Mr.
Obama.
I don't know why he continues to accept the recommendations to stay in Afghanistan until 2014.
And I would be willing to bet, I hope I'm still here then, but I would be willing to bet that 2014 is not the end time.
It's going to be 15 or 16.
So I can't speak, but the only thing I can tell you that I do think this vote, well, we're going to have many votes this year on Afghanistan, at least several, let me say several.
I'm hopeful that the people that listen to your show have been calling their members of Congress.
And let me explain that, uh, for this reason, I think there are at least out of the new class of 84 new freshmen Republicans, they've got to be at least 15 to 25 that have to have basically feel that we need to get out.
And I have the names of 11 of them who campaigned and said, we need to get out of Afghanistan.
So it's my hope.
I don't know how they're going to vote, but it's my hope that we'll get most of those 11.
So if we can get 20 to 25 Republicans today to vote, to get out of Afghanistan, that is a major step for the Republicans in the house, which we've not had before.
Right.
And you said, uh, you expect more Republicans than, than just the co-sponsors, uh, to sign on to this one, but do you expect more numbers than last time on this particular vote?
I do.
I think, uh, I would be very surprised because this is not a money issue.
What, uh, Congressman Kucinich has put in is just simply a bill that says that the president does not start bringing our troops home in July of 2011, then he must start bringing them home in December of 2011.
So it's not a money issue.
This is a policy issue.
And it's my hope that, uh, we'll get a pretty good vote.
I cannot gauge it.
Uh, this is one of those votes.
It's going to be the person votes, their heart, uh, hope they will vote their heart, uh, and, uh, how they feel about, uh, not having an end to the war in Afghanistan.
I wonder what you think about, uh, Saudi efforts to back up the kingdom in Bahrain.
Uh, the Obama government apparently is at least, uh, you know, compliant with this.
Uh, apparently Bahrain's Qaddafi is just fine and putting down, uh, their uprisings and even with Saudi help.
Do you have a position on this kind of thing?
I don't really have a position, but you and I both know it's in your list.
And certainly no, uh, it's all about energy.
It's about oil.
It's about the relationships with countries that, uh, uh, provide us.
That's why we need to be independent, uh, and have alternatives to our needs for energy, but, uh, that's another debate at another time, and I'm not sure I'm an expert on that anyway.
Well, I mean, in general, do you support the withdrawal of America from the Middle East and, uh, place your bets on buying the oil on the market instead of securing it with all those ships?
Listen, I am for, uh, closing military bases around the world, unless it's in the national security of our country.
Uh oh.
Well, you know how president is going to take language like that.
I think that's how we got right here, but, uh, all right.
So hang right there.
It's a Walter Jones from North Carolina's third congressional district.
Republican in the house of representatives sits on armed services committee, and we'll be right back.
All right, y'all.
Welcome back to the show.
Santi war radio.
I'm Scott Horton.
We're talking with Walter Jones, congressman representing North Carolina's third congressional district, a Republican district, and, uh, he serves on the armed services committee.
He's a co-sponsor of Dennis Kucinich's bill right now to force withdrawal from Afghanistan.
And, uh, I wonder exactly how this works.
It's under the war powers act, right?
Not the power of the purse congressman.
Right.
No, this was strictly under the war powers provision in the public law.
And, uh, I think that's a good way to start this debate about Afghanistan because I've been saying Scott, ever since we went into Iraq and Afghanistan that, uh, the Congress, uh, that needs to meet his constitutional responsibility.
And that is to allow a declaration of war, which we don't do anymore.
It is a resolution that we give the president, the authority.
And so I think this was a very important debate.
Uh, again, I want your listeners to know that, uh, we don't anticipate to, to, to win the vote, but we want to get a strong vote.
If we get a 120, 130 members against about 15 Republicans, I'm going to say that that's a moral victory.
And now back to the last point before we went to the break there about, uh, when it is absolutely necessary for our national security to have a base in somebody else's country, how do you define that?
Cause it sounds like you'd define it certainly down from where we are now.
Well, I personally, with our country in financial trouble, and that is truly, we are in financial trouble.
And we've got bases in places like Germany and other countries that we're paying them, uh, the rent to have the basis in that country.
And I would say that where we have a true national security concern or interest that I'm for keeping the basis there, but as my dear friend, Ron Paul says, uh, China is, is the superpower of the world right now.
Uh, how many bases do they have around the world?
How many troops do they have in other foreign countries?
And, you know, he always smiles and says none.
And that's money that we're talking about.
And we're spending roughly $2 billion a week in Afghanistan.
It's money we don't have, it's borrowed money that we could be spending here to help our children and our senior citizens, but no, we're spending overseas and it's borrowed money.
Well, do you think that, uh, well, for example, the, the Sunday morning talk show, people would say, well, but we have to lead the world.
I mean, come on, what are you going to do?
Withdrawal from the world?
Not lead it.
No, I think you, you, you can't.
I think it is a, it's a foul.
And I didn't mean ministers.
I meant the talk show people.
No, I think it's a fallacy for anyone to say that we need to lead the world.
I don't know of any great nation, my limited knowledge of history, any great nation that led the world and they had to borrow money from other governments to pay their bills.
You are not a world leader.
It, if you think you are, you're a joke, not you personally, Scott, but anyone that feels that because you can't be, you, you, you cannot be macho man when you can't pay your own bills.
And so my, my thinking is quite frankly, I'm not an isolationist, but going back to a point you did make, I want to speak to very quickly that if we get attacked by a terrorist for those listeners that might say, well, what in the world would you do?
You know, this Marine general that I can't say his name, I mentioned earlier, you know what he said to me?
He said, what'd you do?
You send bombs, you send drones and you still send, excuse me, killer squads to that country.
And you take out those who attacked you.
You don't send a hundred thousand troops over there.
We got to get smart.
Yes, we've got a war on terrorism and we need to fight the war on terrorism, but we need to be smart as to how we fight it and not start a war and be there 10 years later.
And I'm concerned about that.
As I mentioned in the beginning of this show, secretary Gates and secretary, uh, Petra, excuse me, general portrayals have, have said clearly that we will have a full regiment of troops in Afghanistan until at least 2014.
That's why your listeners need to get engaged and help us bring them home.
Well, and you know, these points are very interrelated to, uh, even, uh, the national intelligence estimate, I guess, back in 2006 said the occupations are causing terrorism against us.
And so it seems like, you know, with the financial reasons going on the revolutions, uh, across, uh, the Arab world right now in North Africa and the middle East, uh, with the ongoing disaster in Afghanistan, it seems like we could just, uh, you know, grant independence and just let these countries go.
I couldn't agree, uh, more.
I don't think, you know, what limited knowledge of history I have, it seems like great nations, when they start trying to expand their influence and their holdings outside of their own country, history proves you make a mistake because what you're going to do is, is the, is the largest of that country is going to be, uh, at some point in time without, it's going to be zero.
Now, Congressman, part of your speech this morning on the house floor was about a soldier, a veteran, I think you said, who'd been to Afghanistan and Iraq who committed suicide and left his family behind.
And I was just thinking since so much of, uh, the pro-war kind of spin is that supporting the troops is supporting the policy, uh, and that, uh, opposing the policy is in fact, somehow betraying the troops that you could speak a little bit, uh, to the consequences for individual soldiers who are going to fight these wars and occupy these countries.
And, uh, you know, and hopefully a little bit about what you're doing about it to try to help them.
Well, Scott, I actually held up three posters very quickly.
The one is the face of a little kid named Tyler Jordan at six years of age.
Uh, his daddy was killed in Iraq.
Uh, he's holding a folded flag under his, uh, show, uh, excuse me, under his arm.
And he's holding the hand of a soldier who's got his, uh, hand and his daddy.
Uh, this young man represents all the children whose moms and dads have died and will die in the future.
The second, uh, poster was a flag draped coffin being carried by the air force honor guard at Dover.
Uh, that recommend that represents, excuse me, all the families who have lost, but we'll lose in the future.
As long as we're in Afghanistan, our loved ones, the third is what you were talking about.
It's a beautiful picture of a handsome young Marine.
Of course, he's in civilian dress named Tom Boghossian and his beautiful wife, Katie, uh, and their little, their little boy and Tom committed suicide a year ago, and I mentioned this on the floor, uh, he was so worn out from, from deploying that, uh, he had PTSD and he pulled his call on the side of the road, right on base at the main drag at the camp.
The June is called McHugh Boulevard.
He pulls his car over.
He steps out and puts a gun to his head and kills himself.
And you look at that beautiful family.
How many more Tom Boghossian are going to commit suicide before we get out of Afghanistan?
The other questions I asked today on the floor and many other members did too, but that's, that was what I said in showing those three posters.
Well, and that's something that I think is a lot of out of sight, out of mind for most Americans because you either live in a base town or you don't basically, and if you don't, then, uh, you know, I think a lot of people forget there's even a war going on these days.
That's why I was so willing to do your show.
And I want to thank you and your station for doing this because the American people need to get engaged.
I don't mind telling you, I know our time's getting short, but I don't mind telling you everyone that comes to my office before they finish, they might be talking about recreation programs.
They might talk about health programs.
Might talk about dental programs, but I will say to them, I've listened to you.
I'm going to try to help you.
Will you do me one favor?
And it's not personal.
Will you do our military a favor?
Call your member of Congress, call your Senator and tell them whenever they get a chance to vote on an, on an Afghan issue, to bring our troops home, to vote, to bring them home, we've got to get the American people engaged in this thing.
Well, and, uh, you know, the polls say that now two thirds of the American people say it never was worth it.
And three quarters, a super duper majority, I think they call that, is for ending the war by the end of the year.
So I don't know if there's really the, the oomph behind it, the passion behind it's not the top issue, uh, but it sure seems like it's ready-made to be one.
I sure hope that you guys can keep up the fight in the Congress and, and, you know, keep it on the TV news if that's the only way to get it there.
Well, we will.
And, and very quickly during the debate, Dennis Kucinich, uh, yielded a minute to Charlie Rangel, Charlie Rangel announced today on the floor that he's going to reintroduce his bill to initiate the draft in this country.
If we had the draft, you wouldn't even be calling me because there wouldn't be an issue of Afghanistan.
We would have been out five or six years ago.
Well, maybe.
But then again, that would be an endless supply of troops for the Pentagon to be able to use.
I mean, the difference is the American people would get engaged as you were right when you said they're not engaged right now.
Yeah.
Well, no, I definitely agree with that.
I'm just not sure it's worth it.
Um, you know, not that I think it's, uh, you know, uh, that it doesn't matter about what happens to the Afghans and the American soldiers over there instead.
But, um, you know, I was raised actually to believe that it was the draft, the end of the Vietnam war.
But if you look at the timeline, it really took eight years or something after they changed the rules to include even college boys and stuff.
Uh, right.
I mean, after eight years, finally, they were able to end it.
That's true.
But just think if we'd have a volunteer service as we do now, they might still be fighting in Vietnam.
Yeah, I mean, I'm with you.
I'm really not for the draft.
I don't like the idea of the draft, but, but, but if we can't, we, how do we get the people engaged?
How do we get the people to understand that even though your son or daughter is not in Afghanistan, why not care about the other person's son or daughter?
Well, I'm afraid Ron Paul's right.
That it's going to take until the dollar breaks, but that might happen too badly.
Yeah.
Well, at least history will record that some of us were trying to stop it before it was too late.
Right.
Thank you very much for your time.
I appreciate it.
God bless you.
And our men and women in uniform.
Bye-bye.
All right, everybody.
That's Congressman Walter Jones, Republican from North Carolina's third congressional district.
That's it for anti-war radio today.
See you all tomorrow.
Thanks for listening.
