All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show.
I'm the Director of the Libertarian Institute, Editorial Director of Antiwar.com, author of the book Fool's Errand, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, and the brand new Enough Already, Time to End the War on Terrorism, and I've recorded more than 5,500 interviews since 2003, almost all on foreign policy, and all available for you at scotthorton.org.
You can sign up for the podcast feed there, and the full interview archive is also available at youtube.com slash scotthortonshow.
Hey, you guys, on the line, I got Jim Bovard.
He wrote a giant stack of books.
If it fell over, it could crush you.
The stack of books, I mean.
He's a pretty big guy, too.
I wouldn't knock him down on you.
And you know, the last one is Public Policy Hooligan, but my favorite is Attention Deficit Democracy, which, you know, Public Policy Hooligan also is great, but I'm just saying.
Anyway, jimbovard.com is this website where he keeps all that he's written going back for 40 years, 35 years, something like that, and tons of great stuff.
And here he is in the American Conservative Magazine, Biden's buffoonish war on extremism.
Welcome back to the show.
How are you, sir?
Doing good, Scott.
Hey, thanks for having me on.
Congratulations for your rock star treatment at Porkfest.
You had so many people lined up to buy your book.
It was great to see the photos of that.
Yeah, it was a lot of fun up there, man.
I shook a hell of a lot of hands and, you know, this girl told me, I've been listening to you my whole life.
That's how old I am now and how long I've been doing this her whole life and met a lot of great anti-war vets and a lot of libertarians and I never have made it up to Porkfest before.
So I did have a great time there.
So yeah, it's too bad it's so far from the airport, like you said.
Yeah.
But then again, I had a great drive up there with my new friends, too.
So what the hell?
That was great.
Excellent.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Good old Porkfest.
I'll see you guys there next year.
And yeah, anybody can watch that speech on the YouTube there if you want to see it.
I guess I tweeted it and stuff.
Hey, listen, so I'm so glad that you took a careful look at this report that the Biden government put out about domestic extremism because I read the thing.
But man, my eyes are just glazing over the whole time.
I just, but you went and parsed the actual sentences that had meaning and took note of what they meant and wrote up this great article about it for the American Conservative Magazine.
So thank you very much for doing the work for me here.
I did read it.
And I did notice some of the things that you noticed, just not as well as you did.
But so can we start out with just how broad of a net they're casting, do you think, on the new war against, I guess they have all new initials for them, the potential violent extremists in America is essentially everybody to the right of Joe Biden?
Well, yeah.
I mean, it would seem like it could sweep in an awful lot of Trump voters.
And it was, you know, to see how they've exploited January 6th to basically demonize anybody who, you know, has not supported Biden.
There was a comment by the Capitol Police chief.
She told Congress that January 6th was a terrorist attack by tens of thousands of insurrectionists.
So basically, what she's saying is that anybody who walked down the mall in the Smithsonian Mall there in D.C., well, they were terrorists.
It doesn't matter how far they walked or what they did when they arrived at the Capitol.
But this is just typical of how they're using the terrorist label to demonize vast numbers of people, most of whom were nonviolent.
Yeah, many of whom were just standing around.
And you know, I watched the the New York Times edit of what happened there and all of that.
And so the worst.
Well, I don't know.
What's the worst you could say about what happened there?
There were some folks who were violent and and there were some folks who attacked the police.
They shouldn't have done that.
Some people use force and they shouldn't have done that.
I mean, flip side is you had some of the Capitol Police using an awful lot of force as well, such as shooting that Air Force veteran of point blank range, shooting and killing her.
But it's the thing that fascinates me is how in how in one day, less than one day, the January 6th ruckus became the equivalent of Pearl Harbor and 9-11 and maybe the War of 1812, too.
And thereby anybody who had any vague connection to it was guilty of insurrection and or guilty of sedition.
And this is this is the type of crime that anybody who's antiwar or libertarian or pro freedom should be very alarmed by because it's vague, it's expansive, and it's basically a full employment program for prosecutors who can throw these terms out there that aren't aren't clearly defined.
And you've got vast numbers of folks who are facing who who could face heavy prison sentences, not not for what they actually did, but, you know, because of their association with ideas that the Biden administration is publicly condemning.
Yeah.
Now.
So here's the thing, though, right, is that it was just nothing like 9-11 or Pearl Harbor or the War of 1812 or the Oklahoma City bombing or any kind of thing.
It was a riot.
They keep calling it an insurrection.
You imagine if all those guys have been holding rifles and storm that building.
Well, that's what an insurrection would have looked like.
And that looked like a whole different thing.
And in other words, it was really it was it was a stupid ass version of essentially like a big sit in right of a big civil disobedience, trying to disrupt the vote count.
But not like they were going to actually stop Biden from becoming president or stop the Senate from eventually counting those electoral college ballots, etc.
Yeah, there was a certain element of, you know, jacking off in public as far as the protest went.
But you know, but there was some violence that should have been avoided.
And the folks who physically attacked police, yeah, OK, I'm not folks allow those folks deserve prosecution.
But it's interesting how the media allied with the Biden administration is trying to make political violence seem far more perilous than it actually is.
Now, it was interesting going through this Biden report, seeing what they use the terrorist label for and what they didn't.
I mean, going back to last summer, there were mobs who burned U.S. post offices in Minneapolis.
There was a mob that assailed a federal courthouse in Portland.
Those you know, but those weren't terrorists.
But the thing that they do list is the vehicular killing of a peaceful protester in Charlottesville at the 2017 protest there that had a lot of violence on both sides.
A lot of nasty folks on both sides.
But it did not mention the fact that it did not mention the Muslim who was opposed to U.S. foreign policy who killed 49 people at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando.
Why is it that would not be listed if they're talking about these terrible terrorism cases?
Maybe because it embarrassed the U.S. government, perhaps also because the mass killer there was the protected son of a longtime FBI informant.
And it was FBI lies that blew the trial, the federal trial to pieces of the guy's widow.
You know, it's strange that the report didn't mention the bloodbath in Las Vegas where the single shooter killed 58 people, wounded 900 others.
The FBI says it could never find a motive.
The FBI investigates for what, six, eight months, two years, and then issues a three-page long report.
Nope.
Couldn't find anything.
Yeah, we're going to trust that.
But these same folks want to have a blank check to say which ideas of American citizens are so evil that they justify federal prosecution.
And I mean, this is an absolute Pandora's box.
Yeah.
Well, and the thing is, too, right, is you can find political actors from all over the spectrum, including in the dead center establishment, who talk about using violence, you know, all the time.
But that's totally different from actually meaning it and and carrying something out.
And so then it just becomes everybody's sort of default guilty.
And then they just get to pick and choose which line crossers they want to go after.
Yeah.
And and if you see how these federal prosecutions are going for the January 6th, the protesters, I mean, there have been there's been so much overreach.
There was a guy, I think he was from Arkansas, who was who was photographed sitting at Nancy Pelosi's desk.
Maybe he was chewing a cigar.
Maybe it wasn't whatever.
But, you know, the feds really went after him and I think he's signed off on a plea deal for seven years in federal prison.
But the federal judge who held the first hearing of that guy was she was raving at the guy.
And she was really upset that he had told a New York Times reporter that he scratched my balls in Nancy Pelosi's office.
And it's like, well, yeah, that's a sentencing and it's sentencing enhancement.
If that's not terrorist activity, I don't know what is.
Yeah.
Seriously.
How dare he disrespect her honor, her majesty, the house speaker?
This is, you know, this is what's driving so many of the, you know, the prosecutions seeking harsh penalties for some of the protesters.
I mean, you had all these senators and others talking about how the protesters has had desecrated the temple of democracy.
Now, the temple of democracy is a phrase that I find repulsive because it's like it's a building.
It's a government building.
There's a lot of bullshit that went down there.
This is where the Fugitive Slave Act was passed.
This is where the Patriot Act was passed.
This is where the members of Congress have rolled over for endless wars in the last 70 years and done almost no resistance and almost no investigation.
So I mean, the thought of this being like some sacred temple of Delphi, it's like, no, it's a government building used by politicians.
So let's, you know, and there's a chilling element as well, because many of the pundits on this have been focused on members of Congress were frightened and that's so terrible.
Well, you know, the federal agents frighten a lot of innocent people on a routine basis.
There have been one or two no knock raids in this country that did go awry.
But these don't count compared to our, oh, these are our leaders.
These are this, these are that.
And it's like, they're politicians.
I mean, they aren't a sacred caste for goodness sake.
Yeah.
And the footage of them all, you know, hiding and all of this stuff, putting gas mask bags over their heads and all of this, which just is the most embarrassing thing in the world.
Just seeing how, how badly they overreacted at the time too, when not one congressman got in so much as a fistfight there and were protected behind a line of armed cops the entire time.
But anyway, it got murdered.
That was, that was the joke, right?
Was AOC, they killed me.
Yeah.
Somehow you're still around to complain.
And then it came out that she was actually 300 yards away and some other adjacent, you know, in some other barely on campus building or something.
Right.
Yeah.
There are three, three house office buildings.
She was in one of them and it's like, okay, so I can understand why she'd be concerned.
But I mean, this psycho drama, there was a piece a couple of days ago, I guess on the sixth month anniversary, you had a lot of journal, the, I think it was Vice who did a piece on how journalists have suffered so much and a number of them are still in therapy and they can't sleep.
And it's like, Scott, as someone, someone like yourself who has written about, you know, U.S. wars abroad, and you think of some of the really great war correspondents who have endured combat, been there on the front line and then came back and told us the truth about what was going on.
These are folks who I have great respect for, but journalists who are simply frightened because of, you know, a bunch of folks rampaging and a bunch of, a lot more folks just kind of wandering around gawking.
I mean, you know, this is, this is not like being on the front line of a battle.
Yeah, seriously.
It was a riot, but without even a single arson fire the whole time.
Right.
Not even outside.
Yeah.
It wasn't like a lot of the protests last summer with the, after the George Floyd killing where you had, you know, entire, you know, city blocks burned up.
Well, and look, I mean, the thing is too, is the real point to me is that this is just a one-off, right?
You had the sitting president of the United States who couldn't admit that they stole it from him fair and square and he'd lost and the electoral college had, you know, had voted and the votes have to be counted and that's it.
I mean, once the electoral college voted, he should have shut up, but instead he showed up there and said, come on guys, let's all go down to the Capitol and protest.
Otherwise that would have never happened at all.
And in other words, it's not ever going to happen again.
You know what I mean?
It's not like, okay, this is the Fort Sumter and the battle lines are drawn and now, you know, the conflict is on.
It was a one-off thing where a bunch of Alex Jones fans and QAnon believers showed up and did something stupid one day.
In other words, big effing deal.
The reason it's January 6th is because it didn't last to the 7th.
That was all it was, a one-off big stupid thing, a big unarmed stupid thing.
Yeah.
Well, you know, going back to your comment on Trump, if Donald Trump had the discipline to keep his mouth shut, he'd still be president.
But he basically shot himself in the foot so many times.
But there was also an awful lot of fixes last year in a number of the states where they held elections, a number of things that were just probably illegal, if not unconstitutional.
But Trump was often his own worst enemy.
But it's interesting how the politicians and their media allies are trying to take January 6th to say that the politicians have to have the power to blacklist any ideas which they don't approve.
And that's somehow going to restore faith in democracy, to have all these federal prosecutions where you lock people up and treat them like they were an actual bomber as opposed to someone who entered federal buildings without permission, especially the ones who entered through open doors.
I mean, I don't know how they think this is going to restore credibility in the government because you're having a lot of folks who are following some of these cases are thinking, what the hell?
A lot of the penalties seem way overbroad.
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Well, and so now talk about what all they're threatening us with here in this report.
As far as I understand, well, I don't know.
I don't understand.
Did Congress pass any new laws and powers here?
I think I read a thing where they wanted to create new departments inside DOJ and Homeland Security to investigate something like that.
But was there anything beyond that?
And this is all what Biden's doing here is just executive orders inside the federal government.
Is that it?
That is my understanding at this point.
I mean, Biden, a lot of the Democrats and some of the liberals want Biden to push through a new law on domestic terrorism.
The Patriot Act can already allow the feds to prosecute that.
But if you look at what the feds did after a lot of the violence last year, basically once Trump left office, a lot of the terrorist charges based on violence were dropped.
Certainly, I think that was the case in Oregon and elsewhere in some cases.
So it's just, you know, it looks like terrorism is violence that the government doesn't approve.
And if the violence is being done by people who are seen as supporters of the current administration, then there's going to be a wink, wink, oh, boys, don't do that again.
Or else they're going to, you know, have some other spin.
Some of the most aggressive crackdowns and extremism is apparently going on at the Pentagon.
The Pentagon has a new countering extremist working group.
And the chief of that is someone who, in a series of tweets two years ago, condemned all Trump supporters as racist.
So if they get rid of all the Trump supporters in the military, the U.S. would not even be able to conquer the island of Cuba.
I would guess that most of the troops who did vote voted for Trump.
That doesn't make Trump a good president.
But just to see how they're trying to use these definitions, and people are not paying close attention, but especially if these new definitions become the foundation for federal prosecution, this could have a domino effect.
And it's a huge danger to libertarians, because the FBI is already going out there trying to infiltrate groups who are labeled extremists, even if they're simply nonviolent groups.
You can have an FBI agent who's out there saying, well, if we really want change, then we've got to set off a few bombs.
This has happened after 9-11.
It was standard procedure for the FBI.
And so there are a lot more perils for people who are pro-freedom than there was a year ago.
Yeah.
Your friend with the wild ideas that just started hanging out with your group recently, this works for them.
You could probably kick him right out.
And yeah, there was there was a really good thread on Twitter by Popat, a defense lawyer in Southern California.
And he was saying, yeah, you know, someone shows up and they, you know, if it's a beard that looks like it was done by some Catholic or Mormon FBI agent to try to look scruffy, it's like, yeah, OK, that's him.
That's him.
But certainly going back to the 1960s, I talked to a guy, I think, at Porkfest who said they had a new guy in their group who was a former Green Beret or something like that.
And they could just tell that this guy was trying so hard to get them to say something stupid like, get out of here, man.
Well, yeah.
And this is an important point because people who are pro-freedom or fighting against the wars, whatever, you don't have freedom of speech if you're standing in the proximity of a federal informant who's taking your comments, because if you make a casual comment about, you know, violence or bombs or whatever, boom, that could be part of your indictment.
You could read that.
You could be standing in handcuffs in federal court reading that.
There was a, when I talked to the Libertarian Party of Maryland back in April, I was hitting that theme.
And there were the Pot Brothers at law, some guys on Twitter and on YouTube, and they have great videos.
And it's, you know, it's two lawyers and they're always doing this back and forth.
And one of the guys always says to the other, OK, Bobby, the cops come up and say this and do that.
What do you do, Bobby?
You shut the up.
So and this is about the best legal advice that you can find at good price, too.
And people just need to be careful, careful about running their mouths, careful about the kind of infiltration that's going on.
I mean, if you look at what happened to Duncan Lemp, Duncan Lemp got taken down, apparently in part by informants.
And there was a protest I went to at the county police headquarters over a shooting.
And there were a number of people there that just radiated kind of like, you know, like hell I'm going to be talking to this guys.
You know, there's just people need to have a B.S. radar for folks who are trouble.
And simply simply because someone tells you that they're a pro freedom and they hate the government, it doesn't mean.
Well, you know, people always post pictures of themselves with rifles.
And that was a mistake that Lemp made, too.
Yes.
They said, oh, look, this looks like an illegal rifle to us.
And they later admitted that, oh, no, it was a different model.
But it looks just the same as the illegal kind.
And that was good enough for them to kill him over.
Yeah, it was like a damn footnote in the official Montgomery County report on on further examination, it's like, you know, folks, this is not an asterisk.
There's a guy that you shot, you know, in a no knock race, smashing the window and shooting him at four forty two a.m.shooting him five times with a rifle.
What is he barely getting up out of bed?
According to their story, their second or their third story.
Let's see if they change their story again.
And I'm not blaming him.
He had every right to that rifle and brag about having it on Facebook, too.
But also you live in a totalitarian police state.
So be careful.
You know, yeah, yeah.
I want cops fault.
It's not his fault, but still, yeah, I would not say it's totalitarian.
But it's certainly I mean, there are if you're Duncan Lemp, you know what I mean?
OK, OK, that's a good point.
Yeah, he was he was outspoken.
Well, he was someone who liked quite a few tweets by John McAfee.
So it gives you a sense of where Lemp was going politically.
So but yeah, he was one of our guys.
You know, he was a libertarian.
I think he was like a Bitcoin activist type guy, too.
You know, he was moving in that direction.
He had yeah, he had a number of interests that would sync with libertarians and people were pro freedom.
And he was a big Second Amendment guy.
And, you know, that's legal.
But, you know.
And it is pretty Orwellian, too, that the cops are sitting there looking at his Facebook page and going, aha, a rifle.
I mean, for all I know, their artificial intelligence program picked it out.
You know, it's it's pretty out of control, you know.
Well, there are people need to realize that simply because you're on the right side politically doesn't mean that it's you know, basically it's the same as some of these urban bicyclists.
I see out in the streets around here.
The local government's been encouraging people to bicycle right in the middle of the lanes.
And there are there's a road nearby that's speed limits 40.
And you get these bikers and they're in the right lane doing six miles an hour.
But they act like they've got a guardian angel because they're exercising.
And it's the same way with some of the some of the some political activists that think since they're pro freedom or they're anti-government that, you know, that nothing can hurt them.
But it's like, no, you know, you can get hit by a car if you're a cyclist and you can get hit by an informant if you're a political activist.
Yeah.
So, yeah, I mean, that's for sure.
People need to be really careful about that.
And then so real quick in the last few minutes here.
I'm sorry we're running out of time, but you know, you talked about the the new program to route out extremism in the military, which, you know, is a couple of million people or something.
Million men in the army.
That'll take a while.
But then also you talked about how they want to somehow figure out how to outlaw private militias in America.
Oh, yeah.
This is this is a very chilling thing because, you know, could basically be be a federal attempt to ban any kind of group of, you know, men or women who get together with firearms to go shooting and talk about politics.
It's not like there's it's not like there's a clear guideline.
And the kind of folks who would like to ban this would like a very expansive ban.
There was one other thing that cracked me up here in this report.
The Homeland Security Department is financing proposals for enhancing media literacy and critical thinking skills as a way to fight extremism.
And this is this is great.
You know, so you got the same agency that gave us TSA is going to give us critical thinking skills.
I don't know.
You know, it's sort of like it was like Tom Lehrer said at the time that Henry Kissinger got the Nobel Peace Prize.
He said, you know, satire is dead.
Yeah.
And the thought of DHS financing critical thinking skills.
Yeah.
OK, this is a.
Boy, I'll tell you what, man.
And that is the saving grace.
That's why it's not truly a totalitarian state.
It's because these guys could never get their act together.
Had enough to really make it too much worse than it is right now.
I don't think.
But yeah, there was I was doing a radio show some years ago and some guy called up and he was really worried about how the government was building these concentration camps for people.
And so I said, so so who's going to be running the camps?
He says FEMA.
I said, look, it'll be easy to escape then walk right out the door.
And then, of course, it turned out that all those camps were for immigrants.
Right.
Like they are turning your local old Walmart into a concentration camp for Hondurans.
Not for you.
I come.
Well, you know.
Yeah.
And then the fact came out, FBI, the feds that set up a number of those camps in the 1950s that were empty.
But in case there was a national emergency, the FBI had a list of people to round up for them.
So.
All right, well.
There was one more big point in here.
Well, about the militia thing, let's just stick with that for just one second longer is they really can't do that, though, right?
Like because you have private militias of all different descriptions, probably in all 50 states or certainly the super majority of them.
And as you say, there's no real textbook definition.
You could call any gun club a militia if you wanted to.
And then but I think the way that you you quote them in there.
They're talking about.
Trying to get the states to enforce existing laws against militias, something like that.
Does that sound like they're going to be able to do that or really this is not going to go very far?
Well, this is something which is which is which is inspired by a lot of these anti-extremism activists would like to cancel the Second Amendment and prohibit private gun ownership.
And this is so the thought of, you know, private citizens gathering in gun clubs or whatever and being active.
This is something way up on their target list.
But I think it would be absolutely impossible to get a federal law pass on this.
It might be unconstitutional, but it's the kind of thing that, you know, it'd be the same thing, same thing as if the federal government tried to ban, you know, AR-15s in the mountains of North Carolina and then go around and confiscate the AR-15s.
You know, it would not be pretty and it would not work.
So.
Yeah, and they know that that was I forgot who first pointed this out.
It ain't an original thought of mine that that one silver lining of gun registration is that, man, that's a lot of hard drives full of names, the guys with rifles that at the end of the day, what in the world are you going to do about it in a country of 300 million people where, you know, whatever solid number, tens of millions own rifles?
Yeah, I mean, it's but but politicians, you know, so many of the media people, especially in the Northeast Corridor, are so frightened of private gun ownership.
It's like, you know, you know, they had this notion of that the private gun owners are going to rise up and start going house to house and executing people.
But a lot of these same folks really haven't responded to this surge in homicides in big cities.
It's like, oh, well, that's a different, different problem.
It's like the vast majority of private gun ownerships are gun owners are peaceful and responsible.
So, you know, I got to tell you, I'm I'm not feeling as alarmist as maybe I should about this.
It sort of seems like a exercise in stupidity that they know that, again, back to the size and the the real meaning of the January 6th riot there, that there's not too much of a domestic terrorist movement to make out of that.
I mean, even if you're trying it, the thing is so absurd on its face that somehow that represents some significant part of the population, you know, that are a danger to the rest or whatever.
It it's hard to pretend to believe that for too long in a row, I think.
You know what I mean?
I don't know.
Well, they could frame up some idiots into some things, I guess.
Yeah.
I think it depends on where you get your news service from news from, because if NPR is your primary news source and you're going to be, you know, basically hiding under your desk and still sweating.
Same for a lot of the other broadcast media.
Washington Post is, you know, had it has had no bullshit radar on this story.
Yeah.
And then vilify anybody who said, well, wait a minute.
You know, it was it was a ruckus.
Maybe it was a riot.
But Nicole, an insurrection is like, you know, total BS.
But, you know, there's a lot of folks who are very visible who either are still frightened and do you know, it's it's kind of similar after what happened at 9-11, Scott.
It was like there were two different reactions.
There were some folks who were so scared and they stayed scared.
And that was how Bush could drag the nation to war in Iraq.
There were other folks who didn't get much airtime or didn't get much print visibility who were kind of saying, well, yeah, it was bad.
It was a horrible day and, you know, a tragic loss.
But it doesn't change the nature of the world or the nature of the U.S. government.
So and we've got a similar thing with January six.
But there is a whole lot more people were skeptical about the official storyline of January six than there were who who recognized that 9-11 didn't mean we should give absolute power to George W. Bush.
Yeah.
And but there is that same level of unreality, and they did get away with it for a long time when I always made the same argument.
You know, it's the same thing applies here.
Even more so that look, if Muslims were out to get the rest of us and that's what's wrong here is that people believe in Islam.
Well, there's something like three or five million Muslims in America.
And if that was true, even though that's a very small minority, that's enough people that they could burn your town down or significant parts of it if they were trying to.
But apparently they're not because apparently they have to take their kid to school in the morning.
It's like everybody else.
And so this is just made up.
That's not what's going on here.
Well, same thing here.
You're telling me the right are terrorists.
If that was true, the left would be dead.
The right are the ones with all the guns.
Yeah, well, well, there's certainly the ones who are more accurate shots.
And there's a hell of a lot more than three or five million of them, too.
More like a hundred million of them or something, you know.
What are we talking about here?
Apparently, January six was January six and it's over and it's fine.
Well, it's sort it's sort of like the media narrative on the riots and violence last summer that they were mostly peaceful.
It's like with the burning buildings in the background.
Well, it's mostly peaceful.
Is this and it's the same with this saying that the right wingers or Trump supporters are mostly violent.
The vast majority of them are not.
So I don't know.
Some days I almost get cynical.
I know.
Well, it's a good thing you keep writing.
Well, thanks for the encouragement.
Thanks for having me on.
And it's great to see your hell raising going so well.
Oh, yeah.
Well, thank you, Jim, for taking part.
Appreciate it.
You guys, that's Jim Bovard, read him at the American conservative Biden's buffoonish war on extremism.
And man, I forgot we didn't get a chance to talk about this whole national service thing that have to be next time.
The Scott Horton Show, antiwar radio can be heard on KPFK 90.7 FM in L.A.
APS radio dot com, antiwar dot com, Scott Horton dot org and Libertarian Institute dot org.
