All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show.
I'm the Director of the Libertarian Institute, Editorial Director of Antiwar.com, author of the book Fool's Errand, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, and the brand new Enough Already, Time to End the War on Terrorism.
And I've recorded more than 5,500 interviews since 2003, almost all on foreign policy and all available for you at scotthorton.org.
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All right, you guys, introducing Kalman Barkin.
He's a friend of the show and an American-Israeli, or Israeli-American, American-Israeli.
Lived here from here, lived there, now he's back here again, but is deeply immersed in all Israeli electoral politics, which are quietly, but very importantly, laying behind the scenes of the entire conflict going on over there right now, I think.
Did I say all that right, Kalman?
Welcome back to the show.
Hi, Scott.
Yeah, I'd say it's definitely playing a role.
Yeah.
All right.
So we'll take us back.
So Netanyahu had the mandate to form a government after the last elections, and he was unable to form a government.
And then, I think this is the first time I can remember this happening.
The president, Rivlin, then gave, usually Netanyahu always pulls it out in the end or something, you know?
But instead, the president gave the option to his competition, Yair Lapid, to try to form a government.
And then that was, do I have my timeline right?
Just a few days before the raid on the Al-Aqsa Mosque?
Yeah, I just, just, this isn't the first time someone else got the mandate.
Benny Gantz actually got the mandate one or two cycles back.
Oh, that's right.
They compromised.
He gave in to Netanyahu anyway, right?
So what happened then is he got the mandate and he couldn't either make a government and then the mandate returned to the Knesset, meaning anybody could form a government if they can.
And that's when the compromise was reached.
After both sides had failed.
Gotcha.
Okay.
So this time, I'm sorry, I don't have it together.
Do you have the dates of when Rivlin gave Lapid the go ahead to try to form a government compared to when the, the raid on the mosque took place, which was, I know, Friday before last.
I know that he has 13 days left on the mandate now, and it is a 21 day mandate.
So it was like a day, two, three days before that.
Yeah.
So, well, gee, you think one thing has anything to do with the other?
Did Netanyahu send those cops there to start this crisis just for electoral political reasons, do you think?
It's hard to know that kind of thing before because, because there's always like tensions happening and it's kind of hard to tell how much allowing to go out of control is purposeful versus just, you know, letting it go.
All right.
So, you know, I don't know if you saw this, but there's a clip of Geraldo Rivera on the Sean Hannity show going around on Twitter this morning and Hannity and Boningo or whatever that guy's name is, the right wing guy are saying, who started it?
Who started it?
Who started it?
And Geraldo says, well, the cops started it when they raided the Al-Aqsa mosque on the Friday before the thing.
And they go, oh, well, just refuse to hear it because as far as they're concerned, history began on the next Monday, but not even on that Monday, that Monday night when Hamas started firing rockets.
That's the narrative.
That's the iron law carved in stone that we all have to pretend that history began on that Monday night.
I'm sorry, I forget the date again.
And they just can't stand to even hear that there was anything.
And in fact, the way Geraldo said, well, it's one long crisis, but in the short term, this particular episode of violence broke out with the raid on the Al-Aqsa mosque.
And it's sort of, I mean, I guess it went global.
It went like became bigger with the raid on the Al-Aqsa mosque.
The underlying conflict on this round is the Sheikh Jarrah houses.
Talk more about that.
So basically, there's the set of houses in, well, I have to go back pretty far in history for this one.
So in the 1920s, the city of Jerusalem was significantly more mixed.
It was less, you know, East versus West.
This is under the British mandate.
People bought houses wherever and so on and so forth.
Anyway, there's this neighborhood, the neighborhoods are surrounding the old city, Sheikh Jarrah, Jabal al-Muqabir, Deir al-Bakr, and a few other neighborhoods.
There were small clusters of homes that were bought by Jewish organizations at the time.
So most of them were like organizations to bring sort of like proto-Zionist organizations went bought some land, settled there.
As you know, 47, 48, the conflict warms up.
You know, a lot of people on both sides were displaced.
The city kind of split to East-West, and then even leading up to the War of 48 from various times in the 30s and in the 40s.
So these houses belong to nonprofit orgs in the 20s and 30s.
The War of 48 breaks out, the city splits kind of down the middle in the, what they call the War of Independence, what the Palestinians call the Makba.
It really splits almost down the middle.
Anyway, so what Israel does in the 50s is it passes a law that says that any Palestinian that was displaced in the conflict, they cannot reclaim their property, which I mean in and of itself, basically Jews couldn't reclaim property that had fallen on the Palestinian side or fallen on the Jordanian side.
Jordan controlled what's now the pre-67 borders.
Jordanians couldn't claim land on the Israeli side.
It was a relatively, I mean, unfortunate, but understandable situation.
Then the War of 67 happens, and Israel retakes the east of the city, as well as the West Bank.
Like the east of the city, which was part of the West Bank, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
What they do is they pass a law that Jews can now reclaim property that had fallen on the Jordanian side of the land, but Palestinians still can't reclaim property that had fallen on, they left that unchanged.
Palestinians who are now, once again, in Israel's control, can't reclaim property that had fallen on the Israeli side during the war.
This is sort of a patchwork legal system that was created first in 1950 and then in 1973, which essentially made it that Jews that were displaced can reclaim their land, Palestinians that were misplaced cannot reclaim their land.
That was an issue, but it didn't play out so much because we're talking, most of these buildings were owned by non-profits, which basically no longer existed because, I mean, you're talking about like a non-profit intended to buy a piece of land, which is in a different country right now.
Most of these non-profits folded.
In the early 2000s, this group called the Tart Qanin sued to the courts to become the caretaker of the properties of these defunct non-profits.
So essentially, you had these houses that were from areas where Jews had been displaced in the 30s.
75 years later, the courts decided to give a completely unrelated organization with no connection at all, control of these now defunct organizations as its own.
And this organization, its stated goal is to kind of, they call, Jewify Yehud East Jerusalem, to sort of make all the neighborhoods that are no longer, like make all the Palestinian neighborhoods at minimum mixed, not completely Jewish neighborhoods.
And they do this in part by buying properties, but in large part by using various forms of lawfare to like gain control of defunct non-profits that in theory on paper own land from the Ottoman Empire era.
And the courts have largely went along with it.
They've given them a thing.
And then as soon as they take control of property on paper, they attempt to evict the residents.
And you run into, you know, renter protection laws and exactly how they work, squatters rights and all kinds of stuff.
But generally, they eventually can get a court ruling to give them control of the property.
They then, they take it over, they put a family of settlers in it.
And then immediately the Israeli police show up and say, oh, well, this family of settlers needs protection.
And they typically cut off the street, put on like blockades on either side of the street, kind of like at the opening of the settlement and essentially turn like this one house, which they gain control of into a settlement block.
So this, so Sheikh Jarrah is one such neighborhood.
This is a few weeks ago.
The courts ruled that whatever this building was like eight, eight families, I think, were their, their home was to be turned over to this nonprofit after it's gone in because of, you know, some defunct line claim from 40, 50 years ago.
This would mean in practice, basically that entire multi-block radius would become a militarized zone.
So there was all kinds of tension, you know, there were rocks flying back and forth in both directions and lots of protests.
And that kind of gave the backdrop for the tensions that led to the Al-Aqsa Mosque thing.
In addition, every year there's an Israeli holiday celebrating the Six-Day War victory, which was the conquest of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, specifically the day that they took East Jerusalem, they celebrate Jerusalem Day, the quote-unquote reunification of Jerusalem.
And every year, that's an extremely high tension day.
There's an event called the Flag Dancing, where we could go in, where they, like a group of mostly from the Zionist right, they dance through the, through the old city, specifically through the Muslim Quarter, and basically look at the big fights.
So this was already a tense time to begin with.
And then that added a tension of the Flag Dance.
And then in addition, it was during Ramadan, it was towards the end of Ramadan.
So there were like multiple times of tension playing together, just like the regular annual cycle.
And then in addition, this attempt to sort of militarize Sheikh Jarrah at the same time.
And then when once the, and then at the Temple Mount, on the Temple Mount is, the Temple Mount and Al-Aqsa, the same thing, Al-Aqsa is the largest mosque on the Temple Mount.
And it's obviously an extremely high tension area, because all the religions consider it to be very holy.
And then the riot police just went in full force, smashed windows, beat people up.
And that was seen as like, an absolute, like that was a red line we don't cross.
And that's kind of when all hell broke loose.
That's kind of the backstory for this particular part of the conflict.
Hold on just one second, be right back.
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Do you know of anywhere else in the world where civilians throw other civilians out of their homes and the cops stand there and let them do it?
Like on a one-on-one basis?
Like I'm sure that there are places where, I don't know, Myanmar, there's ethnic cleansing campaigns and stuff like that.
Do they just move people right into their houses?
I can't think of anywhere else in the world where that happens like that.
Yeah, I mean, and I didn't even, like I was touching just on the like national level thing, but these, these, these families, you're talking families that have lived here multi-generations, like whether they got it justly or not in the thirties, you're talking about people that have lived there since the thirties and the courts not only kicked them out, like not only ruled that they can evict them, but they also ruled that like they have to pay, they have to carry the cost of the trial, of the eviction trial.
So basically they, they, they took these families and, and put them in complete financial ruin.
Something like 70 people from eight families, and they were like, yeah, you, you're never going to have any financial stability again.
Yeah.
I saw them excuse making that, well, like you were saying, these houses belonged to Jewish families or Jewish organizations back before the creation of the state of Israel.
And so that's what counts here.
And I just thought the Palestinians must just, that probably is the easiest way for the Israelis to finally finish killing them all and stealing the rest of their land is just by making them die laughing that that is actually their position, that we're going back to who owned what in say, I don't know what circa 1930 something, 40 something early forties.
I bet you could get a lot of Palestinians to agree to those terms if that's what they were.
But as you were saying, no, no, no.
It's only one direction.
It's one way or the other.
Yeah.
There's, there's actually, I saw one of the Palestinian law groups is trying to find some technicality where a Palestinian wouldn't, because the way these laws are written, they don't specifically say you're the wrong ethnicity, they say you were misplaced on the wrong side of the line in this and this time.
Right.
And so they're trying to find like, they found like a person who technically falls in the technicality, which he'd probably fall, which he would technically fall on the Jewish side of the law, even though he's Palestinian and they're like, hey, you know that building in downtown Jerusalem?
So yeah, it says displaced on the other side of the line.
Technically I was only displaced to a refugee camp, which did end out on the right side of the line.
So I get that mole in downtown Jerusalem and they're going to see how that plays out.
Yeah.
All right.
So now back to Netanyahu and his political and legal problems here in the last few minutes, I guess I've always sort of dismissed his legal problems because he's just too powerful for the law to really apply to him, at least until after he's gone.
Right.
I mean, he was in jail for a while, but only after he was no longer in power.
But maybe there really is a threat there.
But then more to the point too, if you could get back to Lapid and the threat to Netanyahu's rule after all this time, and whether I guess you think this current violence has helped to save him again.
I'll just clarify real quick.
Sure.
Omer, when he was indicted, he stepped down and then he was convicted.
Okay.
It's actually pretty amazing, right?
For all of the Israelis flouting of the law when it comes to the Palestinians, that they would hold leaders at that level accountable at any time is really amazing.
Certainly doesn't happen here.
Yeah.
So I would not at all, like the Netanyahu case is very serious.
Even though it's not, like it's not something which a president would probably get in trouble for in the United States.
The legal system in Israel is pretty independent and they really do not like Netanyahu.
Like as a general rule, they really do not like him.
And like, I would not, there's a really decent shot he ends up in prison.
That said, that's a few years away.
Like he'll probably get convicted and he's going to appeal until the appeals process works out.
He's probably got a good four or five years before he actually sees the inside of himself.
And he could probably plea out of it, but he seems to be way too arrogant to be willing to cop a plea.
So yeah, about the case itself, basically Netanyahu has a, I mean about the political side, Netanyahu has a habit of making enemies even within the right.
And he's just not a very trustworthy person.
So over the years, more and more right-wing politicians that just hate his guts are accumulating in the system.
So you have Gideon Tsar and you have Naftali Bennett and you have Victor Lieberman and various other fragments of parties.
You're talking something like 15 to 20 seats in the Knesset of people that are very right-wing, but they just can't, you know, and then you have Yair Lapid, which is what's considered center in Israel, which would probably be center-right in the United States.
And he is seen as sort of the viable alternative.
And it looked as if he had a government.
He was going to have to rely on a new Arab party called Ra'am, which is somehow got, so it was kind of ironic.
So Netanyahu decided to, when the election results came in, he saw he doesn't have coalition.
He actually went and sort of legitimized this new Arab party as you're allowed to make a coalition with them because he realized he'd be able to have a coalition if they joined this coalition.
And they were willing to, like they said, like, yeah, we're not going to stop, you know, believing that you should stop the occupation, but in exchange for building, you know, basic infrastructure in Arab cities and the like, we're willing to government.
The problem is Netanyahu, if you recall from last time, he brought in the hard, hard right into his coalition.
They refused.
They said, we're not making a coalition with this character, any circumstances.
And he tried all his pressure tactics and they wouldn't.
So he couldn't get them both in the same coalition at the same time.
But in the meantime, he went and legitimized this party.
And now the center, which was always scared to do that because they'd be demonized by the right, was like, yeah, oh, they're legitimate now.
Okay, we'll make a coalition with them.
And it looked like they had the ability to make a coalition.
However, once this conflict started and the coalition was going to be the center, the left and then the right wing parties that can't stand Netanyahu, there's going to be some strange barefellas, but it looked like, like on paper, it looked like it's definitely going to happen.
I don't know how long it would last, but it was definitely going to happen.
And then, and then the conflict blew up, which Netanyahu definitely gained on it.
And I don't think he, I don't think it's far-fetched to say that he wanted it to.
And the right wingers who wanted to join with the left, whenever conflict blows up, the hatred of the left within the right goes off the charts.
Yeah.
And it became a non-viable political position for those right wingers who don't like Netanyahu.
Right.
And look at it without a coalition.
I'll tell you what, Kalman, you know, there's a guy named, I'm not sure if you're familiar with this at all.
Many people aren't, it's fine.
But there's a character in the Libertarian Party who a lot of people on my side, you know, really seem to have a problem with, and I'm not going to claim I see eye to eye with him on everything, but it was Nicholas Sarwak who said to me on Saturday morning that, you know, Netanyahu and Hamas are essentially strategic allies.
And you see how well this is working out for Netanyahu that now think, for example, the idea of Lapid, and this has never really happened, but if it was, if it could possibly happen that Lapid would bring one of the Arab parties into the coalition in order to secure that majority and the prime ministership, that this current conflict has certainly, I forgot his words were better than mine.
I forgot exactly how he said it, but essentially that this would have controversialized the idea of bringing the Palestinian citizens of Israel and their parties into the ruling coalition to make it absolutely impossible, which is beneficial for Benjamin Netanyahu, which I think is absolutely astute and correct.
So, yeah, I know Nick, he lives here in New Hampshire.
What's, he's making actually a great point.
It's all Smutrich, who's Netanyahu's favorite hard right friend, the head of the party, which Itamar Ben-Gur and that other Noam crowd, which we discussed last time, are part of.
It's like a coalition of all the hard right parties.
And he's the one who sort of sank Netanyahu's government attempt this past time.
He actually, there's a video of him saying that Hamas is a great strategic asset of Israel because it allows, it allows them to paint the Palestinians as a, as, you know, terrorists and that we don't have to kind of deal with their demands on an international stage.
He's actually on a video saying that.
Listen, I'm so sorry.
I got to go, dude.
I'm looking at the clock here and it's mad at me.
But thank you so much for coming back on the show.
I love talking about this stuff with you.
And I guess we'll see what happens with the voting and all of that, or the apportionment of the...
Probably going for another round of elections.
Oh, okay.
Well, we'll certainly be turning to you to keep us up to date on it, man.
Really appreciate it.
The Scott Horton Show, anti-war radio, can be heard on KPFK 90.7 FM in LA, APSradio.com, antiwar.com, scotthorton.org, and libertarianinstitute.org.
