All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show.
I am the Director of the Libertarian Institute, Editorial Director of Antiwar.com, author of the book Fool's Errand, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, and I've recorded more than 5,000 interviews going back to 2003, all of which are available at scotthorton.org.
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The full archive is also available at youtube.com slash scotthorton show.
All right, you guys on the line, I've got Matt Agrist from the Free Thought Project.
That's thefreethoughtproject.com.
Welcome back to the show.
How you doing, man?
Good, man.
Thanks for having me on.
Happy to have you here, and I just cheat off of you.
Every day you send out your evening email, and I cuss and spit and write up a blog entry at the Libertarian Institute.
Just about every day, virtually every day, there's a new one where some unarmed and or undeserving person gets killed to death by the cops over nothing.
I don't know how you even keep track, because especially the way you write these up, you This reminds me of these six other cases that were a lot like that, and then you bring all those back up to each time.
It's really good.
It's some of the most important journalism in the country, I think, and I'm really happy to have access to it.
So anyway, I want to talk with you about a few different things.
I guess to start, maybe we can catch up on the Breonna Taylor case, because this one is of course especially outrageous due to the character of the victim, and all of that is what really stands out, right?
In the middle of the pandemic, our heroic first responder, EMT, who in one breath, everybody in major media and everyone is worshipping, turn right around and treat her as expendable in the next second if she gets caught up in some kind of drug thing, supposedly.
There's more and more that's come out since we've spoken in developments in this with the grand jury, essentially no billing, the cops who killed her, the controversies over the attorney general in Kentucky and what he brought before that grand jury, other developments, I don't know, civil cases, whatever, and more and more information coming out all the time about the raid itself and the cops' statements about what happened and all these different things, so I was wondering if maybe you could kind of catch us up on that.
Yeah, man, I mean there's so much new information, especially since the indictment, which was not even an indictment in the death of Breonna, it was an indictment because one of the cops involved recklessly shot into another apartment when he was in there, showing just how ridiculous this raid was in the first place, you know, and so yeah, so after that, that's when the protest began in the downtown area down there, they actually, they boarded it up, you know, after, like before they released the lack of accountability that they were going to give to the officers, they boarded up downtown and it was insanity, man, I've never seen anything like that, and since then, you know, we've seen new body cam footage that came out where these, they're walking around trying not to, or trying to cover their tracks and it's very suspicious, everything that's been coming out, coming to light since then, and I mean for those that don't understand, I mean everybody probably knows a little bit about the case of Breonna Taylor, she had committed no crime, her boyfriend had committed no crime, Kenneth Walker, and they were asleep in their house and when police busted in and killed her, Kenneth Walker admitted that he fired one shot at police, that he didn't, that he did not know they were police, they, according to him, they never identified themselves, and which makes sense, I mean, who's going to identify themselves during a no-knock warrant that they're serving, you know, and the whole raid was for nil, because the person that they were looking for, which was Breonna Taylor's ex-boyfriend, had already been arrested previously that night, and everything about this case is just, it's like the epitome of what's wrong with the police state and the country right now, it's rampant violence to enforce a failed war on drugs, you know, they were looking for some substance deemed illegal by the state and that was it, and for that, a hero EMT who was, you know, putting herself on the line every day during a pandemic to help people was gunned down in her own house, and the people that, like I'm seeing a lot of people on the right, they attempt to justify it, they were like, well, she was, you know, she was dealing drugs, her boyfriend was dealing drugs out of the house, and this is just simply not true, that's just disinformation, no one, there was no drugs in the house, you know, there was, Breonna Taylor never dealt drugs, she had no record, maybe her boyfriend did, but that was left to, you know, he didn't live there anymore, the whole case is just riled in controversy and cover-ups, and it started like that from the beginning, I mean, in fact, Breonna Taylor was killed in March, no one reported, I mean, we reported on it in March, but no one else reported on this until after George Floyd was murdered in late May, so, I mean, like, it was like the media didn't care about it, nothing, you know, and then eventually, like, a couple of high-profile Twitter police accountability activists started talking about Breonna Taylor, and then all of a sudden, it's like the number one story, which it should have been the number one story in frickin', in March when it happened, but it wasn't because no one was really paying attention, and it took, you know, looting and rioting to get the people's attention again back on police accountability, but it doesn't look like anything's gonna happen to these officers involved, and, I mean, it's just gonna get swept under the rug eventually, I think.
Yeah, well, so, I'm almost certain I got this from you, but it was back a few weeks ago, I don't know, eight weeks ago now, maybe, the cops had put out the 911 call, or maybe the defense lawyers had gotten their hands on it and put it out, and this is where her boyfriend calls the police, and he clearly has no idea that it was the cops who had broken in and killed her, and he calls 911, help me, help me, tell me, these guys just kicked down the door and killed my girlfriend, you know, and he's beside himself, and there's, he ain't acting, right, like, he's in the middle of this, you know, this high-stress situation, and there's no indication whatsoever that he has the slightest clue at this point that these are cops.
Right, and eventually, I mean, well, they arrested him and charged him with Breonna Taylor's murder, and with shooting a cop, but eventually that, all the facts came out, and they had nothing on with which to charge him, so they had to eventually let him go, but yeah, that was their story, the police's story from the beginning was that, you know, we went in here and we took fire from Kenneth Walker, and he's a murderer, he's a cop killer, we need to throw him under the jail, and then eventually that was all, you know, exposed as lies and just a cover story, but I mean, that's what, everybody bought it when it happened in March, you know, Walker was sitting in prison, he wasn't, you know, the charges weren't dropped until months later after all the attention it started to get, and yeah, and he was like, poor dude, man, like, Breonna was in the hallway when she was killed, it was originally reported in March that she was in bed, but that wasn't true, but she was in the hallway, and according to Walker, she was like, begging for her life, you know, she was struggling to breathe, and she potentially could have had her life saved, which is a tragic irony, given that she's an EMT, you know, but had she been given the proper medical attention, she may have even lived, and yeah, and you know, we wouldn't even be in this situation right now.
And then, but what happened instead?
They just waited around for her to die, basically.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Like I'm talking, you know, like, I think it was somewhere around 10 minutes, and you know, anybody who's ever worked in emergency situations, you know, 10 minutes is, it's literally life or death, and they, yeah, she just struggled to breathe and just was allowed to die right there, and that's what those, that new body cam footage that was released last week, that's what you show, you know, like the cops are walking around, she's done, you know, they're talking about all callous like that, it's just, it's absolutely ridiculous, man, that the level of just blatant violence and coverups that went into this case, and sadly, it's one of a million, you know, maybe not a million, it's one of 5,000 in the last 10 years, you know, of cases just like this one, where people were gunned down in their homes for cops searching for illegal substances.
Yeah.
Okay, but wait, let's stick with this one for a minute, because there's so much to it, and you know, but you're right, though, about it is just one in a million of these, that this goes on all the time, you know, there was a slogan, no more Wacos, but what was unique about Waco?
What was unique about Waco was that the innocent civilians won the initial engagement that the cops started, and so then that led to this giant siege, and then the final massacre six weeks later, and all of this stuff, but so what's the part that we're protesting?
The military raid on this house?
Or just the unique circumstances where they won, and so it turned into a siege that was on TV and canceled game shows and soap operas, or what is it exactly that's the problem?
Because if the problem is paramilitary SWAT raids, like what they did to the Branch Davidians that led to that whole thing, well, that happens every day.
It's just usually they win.
It's the Weinberger doctrine, overwhelming force, you know, essentially soldiers pouring into your living room with machine guns, screaming, get down, get down before you have a chance to even move, and then maybe they shoot you, or maybe they don't, but ...
Right, right, and that's a ...
I'm sorry, just one more thing, my nerve on fire.
I interviewed the lady last week, two weeks ago, who did this study from the cost of war, and I forgot who she's citing.
I know Balco at the Washington Post has written about this, but oh, it was ACLU numbers, ACLU numbers, 60,000 SWAT raids a year.
60,000.
Yeah.
You know, back when I heard the number was 50,000, then I was going, okay, well, so that's 1,000 a week, you know, with assuming Thanksgiving and Christmas off.
This is essentially 52 weeks a year, kind of round off sort of a thing.
Just imagine, how is that even possible?
How can cops even stay that busy?
How many people, what kind of warrants do people have outstanding that that's even going on at all?
That's insane.
And then 60,000, so I can't do the math very good, but more than 1,000 a week, and no time off for Christmas and Thanksgiving?
It's amazing that we don't have 100 dead a week, or 50 dead, well, maybe we do.
But in these SWAT raids alone, it seems like we're lucky the casualty rates are so low.
It's true, man.
It's a good point.
And unfortunately, this conversation is lacking in all these protests.
We had Senator Rand Paul who proposed a nationwide end to these no-knock raids that led to the death of Breonna Taylor, and he was surrounded by protesters in D.C. and shouted down, and I think he was even assaulted.
There's all these solutions out there that would help prevent deaths like Breonna Taylor's from happening, but we're not really hearing about them in these protests, man.
Unfortunately, the protests are focusing solely on racism, which is a massive problem systemically within the U.S. law enforcement system that we have here.
It's a massive problem, but you can't just end racism.
That doesn't happen.
You have to take away the tools of the racists.
Right.
It's defining the problem too broadly is the thing.
There was one of these where I think in Baltimore City, and again, I'm probably getting this from your site in the first place, but it was just a couple of weeks ago where the government was, I think they were unsuccessful, but they tried to really pressure the black community groups to stop complaining and stop calling it police brutality.
We don't want that.
What we want to do, we want you to change it to systemic racism.
Now, doesn't that make them sound more guilty in a way that like, well, some cops get crazy with the baton sometimes, but systemic racism means the whole damn government's guilty.
But in their mind, no, it's better that way because you're defining it so broadly that not just everyone in government, but everyone in the whole society is responsible.
What that means when the responsibility is that diffuses, it means no one's responsible.
No one is accountable because it's everybody's fault.
And so, whereas police brutality, we have an instance where officer Johnson did this on Monday and officer Jenkins did this on Tuesday.
And now we're being specific.
We changed the subject to the bad feelings in people's hearts.
And who are like even metaphorical people, not even real people, but just, you know how it is.
It's like, it's the drug war is not racist.
The police aren't enforcing racist policy.
It's actually all of society's racist and we have to attack that because there's a plan of action to do that, right?
And the SWAT raids roll on.
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Okay.
So back to this case, because this was so outrageous.
So we have, one thing is, if you could address about the warrant and how they knew good and well that she wasn't getting drugs at her house and that they had no reason to believe she was getting drugs at her house.
It pisses me off on the warrant.
Well, you know, due to my training and experience, I know that sometimes drug dealers get packages delivered to their girlfriends' houses.
What?
How does that even belong in there at all?
Whatever happened to particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized?
Which package, from which return address are you after here?
And they don't do any of that.
They're BSing about all that.
And then the worst one I think that I heard lately was about the ex-boyfriend, the guy who actually was a drug dealer, as though that's a sin.
But anyway, he talked about, and his lawyer, and he could get in real trouble for this.
This is against his interest to do this.
But he came out and said that the cops tried to extort him and said if he would only implicate her, they would let him off.
And it was something like, you're facing decades in jail, or if you implicate her, then we'll let you off with a slap on the wrist, probation, whatever, time served, a year, whatever it was, something really minimal.
And I was like, well, what are they trying to do?
Make a case against her?
She's dead.
They're trying to convict her?
No.
They're just trying to convict her in the court of public opinion to protect themselves.
So they're like flipping him to be a state's witness against a dead woman.
And then he refused to do that and said, no, I'm not going to sit here and bear false witness against my dead, murdered ex-girlfriend, thank you very, and on you guys' behalf, thank you very much.
I'd rather do my time.
Can you imagine that this is going on?
This whole thing is bananas, man.
It really is, man.
It really is.
And the fact that a judge would issue a warrant for a person who was already arrested is mind-blowing.
That judge needs to be disbarred and taken out of office.
The cover-up in the corruption goes all the way from the cops who shot her and killed her to the judges that issued the warrants to the system that upholds the war on drugs.
I'm glad this case is getting so much attention.
It's opening a lot of people's eyes to these no-knock raids for these arbitrary substances deemed illegal by the state.
That's important.
But unfortunately, it's also opening everybody's eyes to the fact that cops can kill a person, a heroic EMT in her own house for no reason, and no one gets in trouble for it.
Whatever, Brett Hankinson, he'll get fired, but he's not going to jail, and no one's going to jail, and an innocent woman was killed in her house.
So back to that.
This is so fascinating to me, the way this works, that the guy that fired bullets that went so wild that they traveled through walls into neighbors' apartments, which is clearly recklessly endangering them, he got charged for that.
But it just goes without saying, and they never articulate this, I've never seen them explain this in English.
It just goes, you know, implied, that if they're shooting at this guy, and eight bullets hit the woman standing next to him, that, well, that's fine.
That's not reckless endangerment.
Everybody knows that if she's next to him, that that's within the margin of error for firing your gun at somebody.
But since when is that the rules?
Why isn't killing her reckless endangerment?
And just ipso facto, the fact she got shot eight times means that they were not aiming their firearms properly when they were discharging them at the man who had actually fired at them.
Never mind who fired first, that's the next question.
But just on the whole thing of missing both of them is reckless endangerment, but missing him and hitting her, meh, those are just the breaks.
Yeah, that's a great point, man.
And there was a report, we didn't report on it, but I had read about it, that the ballistics of the bullet that actually went into the officer who was shot's leg, which justified the reason for the return fire and everything, I think it was Mattingly, I'm not sure which officer it was, I'm drawing a blank right now, but that the ballistics didn't match the bullet fired from Walker's gun, meaning that the officer could have been shot by one of his own.
Well, I think what it was, it was Walker had a nine, and the cop's version was they all were carrying .40 caliber Glocks, but this one cop had also been issued a nine, and so the idea was maybe he had shot himself in the leg, or he had shot the other guy, I guess, maybe.
Although that didn't seem very plausible, the lawyer brought that up, but it seemed like it was likely that this guy had fired.
But the question was, is who's defending himself?
And of course, this was the argument before the grand jury was, well, look, this guy shot at the cops, so then they were firing in self-defense.
But if they were the aggressor, and he was the one who was firing in self-defense, then they were not firing in self-defense.
But they dropped the charges against him, they're not prosecuting him for aggressing against them, because they recognized they weren't gonna be able to get away with that, because he was defending himself.
But so then, how can they have it both ways?
If he was defending himself, then they were the aggressors.
And if it was a no-knock raid, and they didn't identify himself, and that's the law in Kentucky, by the way.
I read an article where they said, it probably was one of your articles, where they said the law in Kentucky says that if a cop comes through your door, that you don't have the right to defend yourself from that.
They have, just like out on the street, they have the right of aggression, they have the authority of aggression that you do not have.
But if they do not identify themselves as police, and you don't know that they're police, then of course you have the right to defend yourself, otherwise that wouldn't make any sense at all.
And that's written into the law in the state of Kentucky.
And so, for them to tell, for the AG to tell the grand jury that, well, no, look, hey, once that guy fires at them, all bets are off, well, that's begging the whole question.
That's not even addressing the question at all, about who had the right to shoot and who didn't.
And if one side did, then the other side did not.
Right.
I mean, to us, it's plainly clear.
No one has a right to barge into your house if you have done nothing wrong and try to kidnap you.
Right?
There was no victims in this instance.
There was no, it wasn't like Breonna Taylor and Kenneth Walker had hurt anybody, even if they were dealing drugs, which they were not, even if they were, there's no moral justification for such a raid, you know, to go take somebody out.
If you look at it from a non-aggression standpoint, the cops are the aggressors 100% of the time on every single drug raid, and everybody should have a right to defend themselves against it, you know?
Short of, there's no victims in these, so the cops are always the aggressors.
Anybody who retaliates, even though this is not, you know, that's not how it plays out, but that's morally, that's the only justification for it, you know?
But I think even if you assume the legitimacy of the warrant, which I clearly don't either, but assuming the legitimacy of the legality of the raid at all, the fact that they didn't identify themselves means that he had no reason to think that he had an obligation to surrender to their power.
You know?
Right.
Yeah.
And he even called to tell them that he was getting raided.
I mean, that they had people there and he was shooting at them and they just shot back and he clearly saw that he was outgunned, so, you know, he just hid and called 911.
I mean, I guess that's what you do.
You can go out in a blaze of glory and dump all your rounds and just get filled with holes by four crazy dudes that are just shooting into your house, you know?
Right.
And in fact, Matt, even presuming the legitimacy of a no-knock warrant, right, just for the sake of argument, again, no-knock doesn't have to be no announce, right?
That's the key under the Kentucky law, supposedly, if there's such a thing as the law in the state of Kentucky at all, right, is even if they're coming barreling through the door without announcing themselves, I mean, without, like, warning, that doesn't mean that they should not be saying, police, police, police, as they come through the door or local sheriff's department or whatever it is that they say to identify themselves, right?
Because the whole question is, is who's on the defensive or not?
And under the law, if the cops are using aggressive force against you, you're still supposed to put your hands up, put your hands behind your back, go with them, argue with the judge later, right?
But if it's just a gang of thugs coming through your door, well, in fact, you're obligated to shoot them, especially if you're with your woman.
You're obligated to kill them in her defense at that point.
So, you know, it's all important whether they announce themselves.
And there was like a dozen witnesses said they didn't.
And the one witness who said they did, which the attorney general tried to trumpet and flag and say, see, well, that person changed their story after the cops came back a week later, two weeks later and said, don't you think you heard him say cops?
And he goes, yeah, OK, I guess maybe they did or something like that, you know, where he was obviously being agreeable with them and rather than really saying that he heard them.
So that would seem to be the key, but oh, well, she's dead and the AG already let him get away with it.
So it's already a done deal anyway, isn't it?
Right.
Right.
And that's what I'm saying.
Had they had any evidence that they announced themselves or anything of the sort that didn't completely exonerate Walker, then rest assured, Walker would still be in jail right now.
And he'd be the scapegoat for this entire thing.
And it was actually us that you probably read the about the Kentuckys.
They use the castle doctrine, you know, stand your stand your ground.
And yeah, a person has no duty to retreat when they feel that they're in danger, whether it be the police or a gang of non-badged, non-badged gang, you know, invading their home.
Right.
So, yeah.
So Walker was, you know, well, especially at night, you know, I know.
I know in Texas.
I'm not sure what the law is now, but I know in Texas the law used to be if it's in the daytime and someone breaks in your house, but you have an easy path of retreat that you're obligated to try to retreat, like, say, go out the back sliding glass door or whatever, rather than blow the guy away.
But at night, put your hand in the window.
I blow your head clean off.
And that's perfectly the deal, you know, and because, you know, supposedly these governments were created by free men to protect their rights in the first place.
Remember that?
Right.
Ha!
Which I know Breonna Taylor's family would be laughing their head off at that.
But anyway, you know, some people used to believe that propaganda.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We actually, about that, you know, the whole stand your ground law, we did it.
I did an article on that back in May before this all blew up about how the NRA loves to come to the defense of people that use the stand your ground law in their own homes, you know, but they they said jack shit about Kenneth Walker using the stand your ground law in his own home, defending himself from from armed intruders that didn't announce themselves.
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
Anyone who thinks that the NRA is here to protect our gun rights as civilian, you know, American human beings is gravely mistaken.
They're simply a lobby for the gun manufacturers.
And who's the lobbies?
I mean, the the gun manufacturers greatest captive market, the state.
And so, of course, they side with the government against us every time, because, you know, I mean, people that, you know, can buy guns on the market and they do in great numbers.
But who gets the big contract to sell many copies of one kind of gun to different agencies?
You know, that's where the big business lies.
And so that's always been what the NRA is about, or at least for many years, probably decades.
I don't think the NRA has been about serving certainly recently.
Yeah.
You know, I don't remember them sticking up for anyone, honestly.
Whenever I hear people say, how come the NRA is not sticking up for this guy just because he's black?
I'm like, dude, I don't remember them sticking up for any white guys when they stick up for any white guys.
You know, they'll say like, hey, let's not pass any new laws.
Let's just vigorously enforce the ones we have.
Stuff like that.
But I don't remember them sticking up for any actual individual victim of state power.
I could be wrong about that.
Were there examples that you have in mind of that?
They've never stood up for citizens standing up to police, even when they're completely justified.
Never, ever.
Yeah.
Because I don't know people saying that about the guy.
I can't keep everybody's name in mind anymore.
I used to be good at that.
But the poor guy in Texas, in Minneapolis a couple of years ago, the guy that was reaching for his driver's license and the cop just panicked and blew him away in front of his daughter.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't remember his name, but that was all on video.
Absolutely.
Insanity.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, that was completely banana.
The one where, and then his wife immediately went on Facebook live.
This guy just killed, you know.
Oh, you're talking about Philando Castile.
Exactly.
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
I've confused that with some, but there's a lot of, there's several instances that were caught on video.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah.
You know, in that one people said, well, where's the NRA on this?
I mean, this guy did everything right.
He said, look, I have a license to carry a gun.
I'm letting you know.
Yes, I have a weapon.
You know, the cop says, okay, fine.
Hand me your driver's license.
He goes, okay.
He starts reaching for his driver's license and the cop all of a sudden just brain farts essentially and just presumes he's reaching for his gun, but he had no reason to think that.
And he just goes, and you can see in the video that he totally just panics.
He just goes, oh my God.
Wow.
Just dude, what do you like?
He just was in a moment of confusion for no reason.
Really.
He told the guy and she says to the cop to no, sir, you told him to get his driver's license and the cops, like you can hear the cop like make a noise like, oh shit, I remember that now that you mentioned it, you know, kind of thing is just what a, what a horrible incident that was.
But yeah, anyway, sorry.
Um, yeah, there's a guy that, you know what, that is a big thing and I know you cover this all the time, right?
Is this question is whether the guy that they kill is unarmed or not, but a lot of the times you have somebody with a gun, but that doesn't mean that they deserve to die.
This is America.
Lots of people have guns sometimes even in their hands.
That doesn't mean that they're trying to kill somebody with it.
It certainly doesn't mean they're trying to kill a cop with it, but the cops just presume that even anything looks like a gun.
A guy has a phone in his hand.
You can blow his head off where you would think, well, for example, not, you would think if it was you and you shot me, you would have to show to the court that, Hey, that I could see down the barrel of his gun, man.
He was, he didn't just have a gun.
He was threatening my life with it.
But for the cops, apparently in the land of the gun, if you have one, your life is forfeit.
Whether you're doing anything or not.
Like the kid in LA, the LA Sheriff's killed the security guard that the LA Sheriff's killed a few weeks ago.
You know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And yeah, he was working as a security guard.
Apparently he was on his knees and trying to surrender when they, when they killed him and the guy shot through his windshield.
Is that the same case we're talking about?
I thought he was like between buildings, like they were chasing him between buildings or something like that.
He's guarding a car lot.
Is that the same?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's the same.
I thought he had surrendered and was on his knees whenever they shot him.
Oh, I think that's right.
I just, I missed the part about the car, but yeah.
Yeah.
And then it was the same thing with the kid on the bicycle.
They said they were trying to stop him because he didn't have a reflector or something like that.
And then they said that they saw a gun on him and killed him, but he was just riding a bicycle or something.
And he had no gun.
He grabbed the officer's flashlight.
He was beating him with a flashlight because he didn't have the proper lighting on his bicycle and he grabbed the flashlight.
And in a moment of self-defense is not to be, you know, completely beaten to a pulp by the cop's flashlight.
When he grabbed the flashlight, the cop claimed the right to kill him and he shot him in the head.
That was all it was.
So he didn't even have a weapon at all.
I remember that.
He didn't have a weapon at all.
Nope.
He just, he just tried to stop himself from being beaten with a cop's flashlight over a bicycle light.
And those are the LA sheriffs in Compton.
And they have a gang that they call the cops that they call the executioners.
And then when a guy comes up and attempts to execute two cops on the side of the road, they really act like this is from out of the blue.
Like what motive could someone possibly have to execute people who call themselves the executioners?
Their local sheriff's department who actually, and quite literally, and very recently execute innocent people.
I'm not justifying it, but let's not act like, Oh boy, are those blacks in South central LA violent?
Yeah, well, they were, they were, those two cops were killed right outside of that Compton station where the executioner gang, you know, works.
And I mean, these, this is a real gang and this is, this is some crazy, I don't know if you are, you very, we're very well informed on it, but these people have tattoos.
They they essentially run internal affairs.
Anybody who tries to expose them, you know, they get beat down and maybe even killed.
Like the, you know, they, they allegedly caught the gunman who walked up on those deputies or whatever.
But I mean, when it, when it first happened, the first thing we thought was like, we, once we saw where it, where it took place right outside that LSD HQ in Compton, we were like, well, man, this could have been, you know, this could have been a hit.
You know, this might not just have been some random guy pissed off at cops.
Like they tried to spin it.
This could have very well been a hit on these two cops.
Maybe they were going to IA with some new kind of information about the, the, the, the LSD gang.
Yeah.
That's a good point.
Um, so, I mean, but they arrested this guy.
We don't have a motive or anything yet.
The news of his arrest was like went under the radar and I mean, I haven't seen any.
Yeah.
In fact, they said it was a guy that they had in custody for a long time on another charge.
Yeah.
Originally at first they, they, they, uh, this guy got doxed on Twitter and they arrested the wrong guy and, um, there was like death threats and it was, man, it was a show.
Crazy, crazy times, man.
Yeah.
But yeah.
And yeah, I want to be clear that, you know, I'm not trying to justify that or anything.
Even assuming it was an angry guy from the neighborhood, which you're right, is not a safe assumption.
I mean, I don't really know what, what happened there, but right.
Even so the way they spin it is just, Oh, the war on cops.
Like yeah.
What did they ever do to anybody?
Well, in fact, these particular cops are murderer.
I mean this particular, uh, unit of police in the LA Sheriff's department in Compton, they are murderers, some significant percentage of them.
And so that would explain it, you know, just like white guys, joint militias and say no more Waco's well, okay, what's this is them.
This is their own version of a militia avenging their local Waco massacre.
You know, again, not justifying it, but it's obviously to be expected as our government says about everyone, these people only understand one thing force.
Well that seems to be the case with them too, right?
Yeah, exactly, man.
Other people take that lesson to heart, you know, yeah.
This was all recently exposed.
There was like a whistleblower inside the Los Angeles Sheriff's department, uh, Oscar Berto Gonzalez is his name.
And uh, he went to internal affairs with all these allegations that these, these people were like throwing parties, celebrating, killing unarmed people, you know, and like initiating their members with tattoos and stuff.
And so he goes to internal affairs and instead of internal affairs investigating it, they go back to the gang inside the LASD and the gang responds to, to Gonzalez with, with more violence, you know, and they beat him up and uh, like it was, it was crazy, man.
Like that's how, that's how deep this corruption goes, man.
So that, that was like the first thing I'm, that I thought of once I saw that, that, that execution or attempted execution of those two cops was that, you know.
And there was a thing, I'm not sure if I got this one from you or not.
I think it was in the LA times where they said, look, the LAPD and the LA Sheriff's department is just absolutely riddled with gangs and that's who runs it.
And in East LA, they're called the banditos in South LA, it's the executioners in whatever, whatever.
And they have, as you say, they have their, uh, tattoos and initiations.
And in fact, I think it was the guys in South Central who, whenever they kill somebody, they get an extra mark on their tattoo or an extra mark on their badge or something like that.
They bend their, they bend the corner of their badge.
Oh, that, right, right.
Yeah.
As their, that's like their, their, uh, mark, a notch on their belt for their kills.
Like they're soldiers in a war fighting against combatants when they're supposed to be the local security force.
They're supposed to be civilians just like us.
Right.
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All right, now listen.
So here's the thing, man.
I want to do a few more of these examples so that people get a little bit of a flavor of that.
And I'm sorry, I'm already keeping you long here.
So this guy, this is from end of September here.
We don't have a crime.
Cops stop men without probable cause, hogtie, kneel on him until he dies.
This goes right to George Floyd and all that.
If they stick too much to the knee and the neck, the defense is going to argue that nope, it was the weight on his back and that was the other cop who was doing that more than he was, which is actually only half true because he had one knee on the guy's back.
But anyway, this is what, and I know this from reading your site, over and over and over again this happens.
The guy that called the cops himself because he needed some help in Dallas and then the white guy with the sunglasses that they mocked him and said, oh mom, I'm late for school and all that crap.
And then there was the guy that was with his family, the Mexican guy in the parking lot and they all just tackle him and lay on top of him.
And it's in this prone position.
They suffocate and it's just time after time after time after time.
They really do say that really is their last words, I can't breathe.
And then they suffocate to death just because of people piling on like this.
And then in this case, I forgot why you said they even, oh, somebody almost hit him as he was walking.
And so that was how the police became involved in his life.
And then the next thing you know, they murdered him.
What happened there?
Yeah.
The guy's name was Cedillo, Jacobo Cedillo.
And he like stays in a shelter and he works, he's employed.
I think he has substance abuse or had a substance abuse problem.
But yeah, he hadn't committed a crime and a car almost hit him on the road.
So police thought that they that gave them the right to detain him and then handcuff him.
If you watch the video on our website, it's heartbreaking, man.
I have my father-in-law is a he's from Peru and he sounds just like this guy and he talks just like that.
And sometimes when he gets drunk, you know, he sounds just like that.
Like I know I do nothing, man, I do not, you know, and that's what this guy was doing.
It's like he didn't understand.
You could tell that he barely can speak English and he had no idea why the cops were were aggressing towards him.
And they just they were like, we're going to take this guy in, even though we have no probable cause.
And they said it on their body cams.
We don't have a crime.
They started taking them to the front of the cruiser and they just got put.
They push them back and forth, you know, like they're there, one's pulling on him, one's pushing on him.
And the guy's like he keeps turning around.
He's in he he he complied with everything.
He let him handcuff him.
He walked with him over the cruiser.
He just like, what is going on?
You know what's going on?
And eventually, like whenever they they they shoved him so many times that he kind of like pulled away.
And then that gave them justification for throwing him on the ground and then stomping on him and, you know, essentially beating him and beating him and suffocate him to death.
I love this quote that you have from the video here that all of these cops are piled on this guy and the supervisor says, we don't have a crime.
And they go, oh, yeah, no, we're just you know, he was like his arm tensed up when I jabbed him in the ribs for some reason.
So, you know, whatever they just they they blamed it on him.
You know, they're like, oh, he started flipping out.
If you watch the video like the dude's completely calm for 10 minutes and he just gets tired of being pulled back and forth and jerked around by these cops is he's in handcuffs.
You know, the dude was in handcuffs.
I mean, oh, yeah, it was crazy.
That video was heartbreaking, man.
I hope his daughter wins a lawsuit against him.
You know, it sucks because we get all, you know, desensitized to this thing like, yeah, that's how it is in America.
All right.
And one is a tragedy and 10 million is a statistic and all of this.
But I can't help but think that, like, what if they murdered me to death?
This is only the one chance I have at being alive.
And if they kill me, then I won't be alive anymore.
Which my whole plan was to stay alive as long as I can.
Right.
I project that onto others.
I'm pretty sure this is in my nature to try to survive.
And then I just think about, like, goddamn, how unfair that is for people to just be killed like this for just no reason at all.
I mean, if you get accidentally hit by a car because a guy makes a mistake, that sucks, too.
You know, but, you know, this kind of thing where the local security force who supposedly I don't know if anybody ever even told them this, that supposedly they tell us this.
We're supposed to believe this.
Their only job is to protect our rights.
And yet every single day, people are just dropping like flies under their care.
And what the hell is this?
I mean, I don't know.
Anyway.
So now tell the one about the kid that they sick the German shepherd on him and let him let the dog essentially maul the boy to death.
Oh, yeah, that was what I'm not.
I can't.
That case is slipping my mind.
I know.
I just recently reported.
Oh, Harry.
So it's Montgomery, Alabama.
And and his his name is Joseph Petaway.
And I guess the neighbor called the car.
Yeah.
They accused him of breaking into his own home.
Yeah.
His own home.
His mom's home.
You said I was like, wait, kid.
But no.
Yeah.
He wasn't a kid.
He was like 50.
I mean, he was someone's kid.
Oh, I thought he was a kid.
No, no, no.
I think he was like 50 something years old.
But yeah.
I'm sorry.
This guy was this guy was going into a house that was his mother's and police were called because he's a black guy and he's walking into a house at night.
So naturally, he's breaking into it.
And instead of like instead of knocking on the door or asking him to come out or any of this, they they sent the canine in there.
And the canine mauled this dude for over 10 minutes.
It severed one of his like main arteries and the guy bled to death right there.
And like the attorney for this guy's family was like, what if there would have been a kid in that house?
You know, I mean, you like I mean, it's tragic enough that this 50 year old man lost his life in his house, that he had he had committed no crime and he didn't he didn't harm anybody.
He was going to his mother's house that he had a key to.
And then he was he was mauled to death, dude.
Imagine being mauled to death, like getting shot.
That's that's quick, dude.
This guy was for over two minutes.
A dog was tearing his frickin flesh from his skin.
And you know, like I think his his his sister said something like she went there and she said she saw his flesh all over the ground the next morning.
Like that's that's a horrible way to go, man.
And none of these guys are going to get held accountable for it.
This guy did nothing wrong and he was mauled to death in his own home because police accused him of breaking into it.
And whoops.
So I'm sorry.
I screwed up there.
And that was what confused you was.
I call them a kid, but I was confused because the picture of him, I guess breaking into his mother's house.
I got that.
And then in the picture, he's wearing a shirt with stripes that makes it look like he's wearing a backpack.
And I just I just glanced at it and I thought it made him look like a high school kid.
You know, something like that.
But I realize that you're right now.
But that was what confuses.
I call them a kid in the first place.
But, you know, I thought he was like, you know, 17 or 18 year olds or something like that.
But anyway.
And then so.
And yet, look, as you're saying here, after they finally, I guess they call off the dog.
They just sit there mocking him and laughing at him as he dies.
They don't even try for a minute to to stop the bleeding or anything like that.
They just stand there and let him die.
Yeah.
And that's why they won't let any of the video out.
I mean, apparently the video is like so damning that they're scared it would just taint public opinion.
But I mean, it should taint public opinion.
Public opinion should be tainted to where this doesn't happen anymore.
You know, that that's what it should be.
But yeah.
So they're not releasing any video of it yet.
And I mean, I'm sure it'll come out next year, like quietly on a Friday night at midnight and, you know, and we'll we'll find it and report on it.
But no one else will.
Yeah.
And, you know, I mean, when it's stuff like this, you can see why black people feel like they're being singled out here.
Like, yes, cops do kill white people in in raw numbers more in proportion, somewhat less.
But in terms of particular kinds of cruelties like this, I mean.
You know, yeah, that's that's pretty crazy, man.
And then and then who's who's doing anything about it except, you know, a bunch of communists, you know, hijacking and taking over their civil rights movement and then the right wing that apparently doesn't care at all or something, who take the cop side.
Yeah.
Instead of realizing that there's a problem with police violence and training in this country would just go wave a thin blue line flag.
That's going to solve the problem.
America.
I mean, I'm being mauled by a German shepherd.
Yeah.
But as you're saying, being mauled by a German shepherd to death, what the hell this, you know, we're not talking about.
Yeah.
This story about how it was in Alabama, down in Montgomery, back in the 1950s.
We're talking about this happened this year to this guy.
You know.
Oh, no, I'm sorry.
It was in 2015, but still.
Yeah, we just we're just finding out in our current era.
They're right.
It's just this is absolutely intolerable.
And then, you know, I understand why people react against all the rioters and that kind of thing.
But don't forget who caused the riot.
It was the security force that caused the riot over and over again.
And the way people react to this stuff a lot of times is completely stupid.
You know, mob thinking, arson fires and whatever.
And actually, a lot of that is very deliberate by the black bloc, you know, revolutionary anarcho communist types and whatever, trying to very deliberately make things worse.
But as far as, you know, gee, why do the black people of the neighborhood support this Black Lives Matter movement?
It's not for the Marxism.
It's for the constant, you know, humiliation of having their people persecuted this way, you know, for, you know, at some point and things, of course, in the scheme of things compared to history, things have gotten a lot better.
But that's who says that's good enough.
That's not good enough.
It's supposed to be liberty and justice for all people.
Right.
I mean, this is crazy.
And now, of course, we're all blacks now.
You know, everybody is treated as bad as they were.
But I don't think that's the kind of equal rights or equality that they were asking for.
You know, let's go ahead and crack everybody's skull.
And then that'll be, you know, bring us all down to the level of equal oppression.
You know, we'll teach you, Matt, about your white privilege.
We'll take that right away.
We'll put you right in jail, too.
It's crazy, man.
Like you said at the beginning of the podcast, you know, there's there's a level of desensitization that's going on, like there's absolutely nothing that's surprising anymore, man.
And it sucks to be like that, you know, this like the I mean, these cases still break my heart and everything, you know, but I mean, I remember starting this 10 years ago and, you know, I would like it would bring me to tears because of the the these cases, you know, like they'd be they'd blow babies faces off with grenades.
They just a kid would open the door with a video game controller in his hand and they'd murder him right there.
You know, there's there's all these different cases.
There's like there's absolutely nothing that would surprise me anymore.
You know, I mean, tomorrow we could see cops body cam footage shows them chop up a baby with a hatchet, you know, and that I mean, yeah, that would be shocking.
But would it be surprising?
I mean, not not really.
It's like it's like they just can't.
It seems like they can get away with anything.
And in the American public, the outrage is reserved to the African-American community.
And it sucks.
I mean, everybody should be out in the street and and and demanding that, you know, that we bring some solutions around that are actually going to fix things, you know, like ending the drug war, ending qualified immunity, making cops carry personal liability insurance.
You know, the thing that's going on in Denver right now where they're actually sending health mental health experts instead of cops.
We just did a piece on that this week.
Right.
Yeah.
I plagiarized that for me, by the way.
I reprinted it at the Institute.
Oh, right.
Oh, yeah.
A hundred percent success rate from sending unarmed mental health experts and EMTs to 911 calls about people in mental health crises.
Right.
And you can rest assured that one in 15 of those people would have been hurt or beaten or even killed had police been responding to them.
So that's a that's a big deal, man.
Some of these changes are actually working.
And we know that, you know, we know that the results of all the other ones that are proposed, we just that needs to happen soon before another innocent person loses their life, which is not going to statistically.
But you know that we just needs to happen.
Right.
And people need to be able to stretch their imagination and and think about, you know, if we lived in a society where it was different, you know, doesn't have to be like this at all.
Like that old Bill Hicks joke about why do we have a drug czar in the first place?
But then secondly, why is he a cop?
I mean, if you're really trying to solve the drug problem, your drug czar would be a guy who's in recovery, who's had an alcohol or drug problem.
We all know that that's already how it works.
Who helps people get sober?
Other recently sober people are, you know, people in recovery from their own addictions helping each other.
That's exactly how it works.
Everybody knows that.
And he said that, you know, in his silly little comedy routine 31 years ago, you know, but so why did it have to be this way this whole time since then?
And why should it continue to be this way at all?
You know, going forward at all?
Why would you have drug prohibition?
If that doesn't make any sense, which it doesn't, then why do we keep it this way at all anymore?
It's nuts, you know?
And just like you're saying, on the whole list of things, you know, I think independent investigations by separate police, separate, you know, prosecutors.
Yeah, I mean, they have that in so many areas, though, and they look, they're full of ex-cops, you know, so yeah, it's it's that's the problem.
I mean, although, you know, if you have you're just investigating after the fact, at least if you have one DA from one county investigating the cops from another county, there's a little bit more separation there instead of investigating literally their own guys.
They're just now at least they're only figuratively their own guys, you know what I mean?
But it's not quite as bad.
And it's not like you can bring in, well, I mean, that's the whole thing about it.
That's where we get to have a monopoly states at all and all of that kind of deal.
But now we're at the bare bones arguments.
But as long as we're stuck with these states, all other things being equal, having it where the DA's office is in charge of investigating the cops from their own county whenever they cross the line, that's got to end immediately, you know, and then whatever we do better than that has got to be, you know, different than that's got to be better than that.
But I'm sorry, one more thing before I let you go, man, is I almost forgot about this.
But then luckily, I hit refresh on the badge abuse category here.
And I was reminded because this is the one I think that actually made me want to get you on in the first place, just because, you know, something's important enough.
I feel bad if I don't cover it on the show.
And then so this is the one where the young lady is in the back of the car, the way the cops driving.
She's all hogtied and falls down head first down into the floorboard of the car.
And she's begging the cop as he's apparently is driving around town for fun, not going directly where he's supposed to go.
And she's begging him to, you know, don't let me die.
Please don't let me die.
And at one point, is it bad that I had you on the show just as an excuse to cover this?
At one point, she says to the cop, I'm begging you, master, please don't let me die.
And I'm thinking like, oh, my God, this is absolutely the epitome of human degradation, right?
Like this is fucking like this poor girl.
That was her last little bit of niggnity right there.
And she gave it up.
And, you know, on one hand, I get that gets me right in my pride, like, man, I'd rather die.
But then, you know what?
That's actually not true, because I got other people that I'm responsible for.
So I can't write.
And of course, that's her problem, too, right, is she probably has babies.
She has a mom and a dad.
She has people that she owes it to them to try to survive no matter what, even to the point where she's begging this scum who is so much lower of a human being than her.
He barely counts as a human at all.
And she's begging him, calling him master.
Please let me go.
And this happened, I think, 2019, 2018, 2019.
You covered here.
And then, of course, I mean, it goes without saying, doesn't it?
I don't even have to say it.
The cop totally got no trouble at all, right?
No.
He's not in trouble at all.
No.
This happened in Aurora, the same people who killed Elijah McClain and all these other people that shouldn't be statistics.
But yeah, the Aurora Police Department, her chief, Vanessa Wilson, actually came out and even called what the officer did, torture.
She said, in my opinion, he tortured her.
And the dude was not arrested.
I think he resigned.
I'm not sure if he was fired or resigned, but oh, no, he actually went before the board and the board recommended like, I don't know, 180 hour suspension.
And then the chief overruled it and got him fired.
But now he's, with the help of the union, he's fighting for his job back.
He said, thank God that she didn't die because he'd be in an orange jumpsuit right now.
But I'm like, dude, watch the video.
He should be in an orange jumpsuit regardless of the fact that she's alive or not.
What he did to that woman, and for 20 minutes he drove around with her.
She's upside down in the back of a car, hogtied, with her face on the floorboard, begging, because saying that she can't breathe because she can't, because she was, there's some kind of asphyxiation that they call that from where, positional asphyxiation.
Right.
The quote here is the direct quote from your article.
She says, my neck is killing me, dude.
Help me.
I can't breathe.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And she, right before she said she, that she called the master, which is just, oh my God, man, that's like, that's heartbreaking for one.
And it speaks to the racism that they, that, you know, that she feels it's in the system.
And she even called that out.
She was like, I never felt so much racism in my life as, you know, as this white cops driving her around for over 20 minutes as she's, you know, struggling to breathe and dying in the backseat of the car.
And yeah.
I love the way, you know, this is, it's so outrageous the way, as you say, the, the, was it the prosecutor, the chief of police frames all this, all the questions begged, just the way that it is presented that boy, it's a good thing she's not dead or he would be in trouble because somehow unstated, but we all know that somehow anything short of first degree murder is absolutely permissible when it's a government employee that goes without saying this is America where the rule of law, they don't even pretend that there's a rule of law.
These people are our overlords.
They can do whatever they want.
It's like in the South, like you could get convicted of murdering your slave in the South.
I mean, occasionally people could, it was against the law, at least nominally to kill your slave.
You can do anything else to them, but you can't kill them, you know?
But so yeah, that's the same standard here, apparently.
And I'm not sure whether her and his race has anything to do with that when it comes to the law.
You know, I think, well, actually probably, yeah, if the races were reversed, he might've gotten in trouble, you know?
But certainly in this case, I just love it because of the way the quotes are from the lady here.
It just absolutely goes without saying, as you just said, just absolutely goes without saying that, um, you know, we can't do anything to him because she's not dead.
Yeah.
That's it.
And this is the chief of police admitting that.
We wouldn't even think of it.
Well, what are we going to charge him with?
Almost killing someone?
Is that illegal?
You know, police brutality, excessive force.
Yeah.
All those things.
He broke all those laws.
Official oppression.
That's a law.
Official oppression.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All of these things.
I mean, and I mean, look, that's just like when George Floyd is begging for his mama, right?
And this woman, um, calling this cop master, that is absolute panic, right?
That is, this is it, right?
This is, this is absolutely clawing at the pit of death.
Last words, um, last resort, uh, you know, kind of, um, kind of thing.
And imagine being in that position where that's, that's your best idea is give this guy the ultimate, um, you know, respect to his dominance and see if there's the slightest chance that'll buy you any mercy at all, you know?
And then nobody did anything to this cop for all the arson fires.
Nobody burned down his house.
Nobody did anything.
No, you know, there's no accountability at all.
They'll burn down some black woman's business.
But nobody burns down where this cop lives.
Nobody makes him feel like he has anything to lose to behave this way, you know, in or out of government.
I mean, he doesn't.
He's fighting for his job back.
He almost didn't lose his job, you know, and that's job security, man, when you can torture somebody on video to the point to where they denigrate themselves before you by calling you master and you're like, ah, I'm not going to get in trouble.
Yeah.
Seriously.
And you know, for the Nazis who have, you know, been able to stay out of prison, joining up the cops is a great idea for them, man.
I mean, if you were a Nazi or say a child rapist or any of these, you know, worst kind of people, you, like so many others would go join, I don't mean you, but I mean one would, sorry, one would go and join up the cops, man.
You get a license to kill.
Get a slap on the wrist.
Even when, and this is something that you cover a lot, I can tell you guys are really preoccupied by this is when cops get away with sex crimes against children, which happens regularly, right?
There was just a new one of these just the other day, wasn't it?
Today.
Oh, another one today.
But then, so that one's even more brand new than the one I'm thinking of.
That was just from two or three days ago.
We do one or two a week, man.
This, yeah.
And sometimes it's like whole gangs of them working together and stuff like this.
Yeah.
And we're not talking about conspiracy, kookery, QAnon stuff.
We're talking about crimes that are actually prosecuted by local authorities, right?
Right.
That you're getting all this stuff out of local news.
And they essentially walk every time.
Yeah.
But that's a whole nother podcast, man.
Sure.
But it just goes to show like that's the level of impunity where people who are the worst kind of criminals quite deliberately become police so that they can get away with their worst crimes.
And what does that tell you about your system?
You know?
Right.
It's bananas.
All right.
I was going to let you go, and then I totally forgot.
I'm bad.
It's all good, man.
I got what Biden's got.
That's my excuse.
It's not a very good one because it's self-inflicted.
But anyway, thank you very much for your time, dude.
Appreciate it a lot, man.
Of course, Scott.
It's always a pleasure coming on, man.
Thank you.
All right, you guys.
That is Matt Agras.
He writes regularly at freethoughtproject.com.
That's the project, freethoughtproject.com.
And you got to sign up for the newsletter, the afternoon email.
It's right there on the right-hand margin, and it'll make you like me.
The Scott Horton Show and Antiwar Radio can be heard on KPFK 90.7 FM in LA, APSradio.com, antiwar.com, scotthorton.org, and libertarianinstitute.org.
