All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show.
I am the Director of the Libertarian Institute, Editorial Director of Antiwar.com, author of the book Fool's Errand, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, and I've recorded more than 5,000 interviews going back to 2003, all of which are available at scotthorton.org.
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All right, you guys on the line, I've got Nicholas J.S. Davies writing again for Antiwar.com, this time with the great Medea Benjamin from Code Pink, and you should know that Davies is the author of Blood on Our Hands, the American Invasion and Destruction of Iraq, and he also wrote the chapters on Obama at War and Grading the 44th President, a report card on Barack Obama's first term as a progressive leader.
I want to read that.
Hey, welcome back to the show.
How are you doing, Nicholas?
Yeah, I'm doing fine.
Sorry, I couldn't really get through that without cracking up.
I know.
I didn't make up the title of the book.
Yeah.
No, but I bet, well, what made me laugh was just thinking about what that chapter must have said as opposed to what they were hoping you would have written, I guess.
So I bet you it was hilarious in context of the rest of the book was what I was really laughing about there, but I don't know how hard they were going after him or not.
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You know, who don't have Washington Post writer status, but whose lives are of infinite value nonetheless.
And, you know, I was reminded when you were talking there about Lindsey Graham at the time, when he voted for this resolution, and he made it clear that this was personal.
That he didn't give a damn about Yemen.
I don't want anybody to think that this is about Yemen.
This is because this guy, MBS, made me look bad, and so I'm upset.
Because I'm on camera, you know, palling around with him, and now I look bad.
Yeah, God forbid Lindsey Graham should ever say anything or vote against any kind of war, or military action, or military expenditures, uh, ever.
He wanted to make sure you didn't misunderstand that he had any motive whatsoever other than his own ego to protect, you know.
Right.
Amazing.
Hey, y'all, check it out.
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And now, so I want to go back to that point you were just making.
It's one I just made in this interview with me a minute ago about these resolutions.
And I always forget which is one is continuing and one is concurrent and whatever.
But one of these kinds of resolutions, the president can veto the other kind he could not.
And he would have been in violation of the law if they had just passed it as this kind rather than that kind.
And, of course, also they could defund every bit of this.
No problem.
All they have to do is add one thing to the NDAA saying that we will no longer finance any, you know, airstrikes or cooperation with the Saudi war in Yemen or however they want to phrase it.
And the whole thing would be over.
So I wonder what you think of that was because you have Chris Murphy, who's absolutely horrible on almost everything, especially one of the worst Russiagate truthers and all that.
And yet he seems to really care about this thing.
And Bernie Sanders is now one of the most prominent Democrats in the Senate, along with Mike Lee and Rand Paul and a couple of the other Republicans.
They seem to really care about this in a way.
I mean, it doesn't seem like it's just PR for them because they might as well just ignore it.
Right.
But they don't seem to quite ever go far enough to change anything.
Well, you know, this this was this was this should have been the low hanging fruit for these guys, because, you know, they're able to minimize the U.S. role to refer to this as the Saudi war, you know.
So without publicizing, you know, just how complicit the U.S. has been in it from from day one.
You know, they're able to attack it in a way that, you know, they're all, frankly, afraid to attack a war, you know, that is being conducted by a U.S.-led coalition, such as, you know, the complete total destruction of Raqqa in Syria and the near destruction of Mosul in Iraq.
That also killed tens of thousands of civilians in each case.
So, you know, I mean, we're a long way from getting any of these people to really stand up and be counted in opposing, you know, U.S.-led wars.
But this one should have been an easy one because they're able to just pin it all on the Saudis and the Emiratis.
And you have the dictator of Saudi Arabia, you know, just who had just exposed himself to the whole world is willing to, you know, kill and butcher, you know, a Saudi U.S. citizen in their own consulate.
So, I mean, yeah, we've all got a long way to go and a lot of work to do to try and, you know, get our so-called representatives and senators, you know, to really show some guts and really show, you know, some principles in defending, you know, the constitutional duty and responsibility of Congress.
To decide when and if the United States should be a war in any particular country or situation.
You know, did you ever read the thing about how the CIA always preferred his cousin that he arrested and marginalized and replaced as crown prince?
No, I'm not really familiar with that.
I'm sorry, Scott.
Yeah, there was a thing about they liked him because he, you know, was so cooperative in their war against al-Qaeda, which, you know, I guess these al-Qaeda, but not those al-Qaeda, something like that.
I'm not sure.
We're putting them all on a plane to Syria.
It'll be great.
But anyway, for whatever reason, they really liked him and they seem to, they put out one good story.
It might have been in the post, though.
I don't know.
But they put out one good story saying, well, we always liked the cousin.
I guess.
I'm sorry, I used to know his name.
It's on the tip of my tongue right now.
I want to say Mohammed bin Zayed, but that's the dictator of UAE.
Yeah, yeah.
His cousin that they pushed aside.
We're trying to touch here also on something.
We wrote an article a little while ago about a group called UANI, which is United Against the Nuclear Iran, which, according to reporting by Eli Clifton for the Quincy Institute, appears to be to a great extent funded by the Saudis and the Emiratis.
And yet this is a major, major propaganda operation based in New York City with all kinds of former U.S. officials involved in it, including John Bolton and including Obama's former intelligence chief on Iran.
And so the influence of the Saudis and the Emiratis over U.S. foreign policy is completely obscene and corrupt.
What they're doing is essentially diverting attention away from the Saudi and Emirati role in all of the chaos and instability and terrorism in that part of the world.
And, you know, really falsely blaming Iran as, you know, quote unquote, the leading state sponsor of terrorism, which, you know, there's absolutely no basis for whatsoever.
So, you know, really, as we said in this latest article, you know, the U.S. said about under Obama, they said about grooming Saudi Arabia and in particular Saudi Arabia under MBS as a new proxy and a new major ally in the Middle East.
You know, really, perhaps not quite on a par with Israel, but, you know, on a similar basis that they would sell hundreds of billions of dollars worth of weapons to them.
They would provide training to the to the Saudi military.
And really, this would save, you know, sending American boys to fight in Afghanistan and Iraq and places like that.
And, you know, instead, the, you know, the Saudis would take care of our problems for us.
And and so really the Saudi war, Saudi led war on Yemen was the first test of this new American strategy and policy of proxy war, you know, without U.S. casualties.
And and yet and yet as a means of maintaining U.S. control through these proxies, through Israel, through Saudi Arabia, through the Emiratis, you know, who, of course, now, you know, Trump has brokered a, you know, essentially a military alliance between the United Arab Emirates and Israel.
And really, the absolute practical and moral bankruptcy of this entire policy was really exposed to the whole world through the Khashoggi assassination.
And and day in, day out through this war on Yemen, which, you know, I mean, it is it is simply now one more endless war that neither the U.S. nor the Saudis have have any idea how they are going to back their way out of.
You know, there are peace negotiations now taking place between the Saudis and the Houthi government of Yemen.
They're talking about a prisoner exchange involving, I think, a total of about a thousand prisoners on both sides, you know, and the fighting has has deescalated somewhat in the past year.
You know, it's a bit hard to gauge.
The reporting is not good from from within Yemen.
But certainly there are fewer, there were fewer airstrikes in 2019 than any previous year since 2015.
However, you know, the the number of airstrikes has now increased by 50 or 60 percent in the first eight months of this year.
So bottom line, the war rages on in addition to the hundreds of thousands of actual war deaths.
You know, there are at least a hundred, maybe a couple of hundred thousand additional indirect deaths in what really is, you know, the most serious humanitarian crisis.
And now in 2020, you know, in the midst of this just absolutely horrible situation, the three countries most responsible, the United States, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, have cut their aid, their humanitarian aid to Yemen by about 80 percent.
And the U.S. has withdrawn from the World Health Organization in addition to that, which, of course, is the lead agency for providing a lot of health care and supporting, you know, the 50 percent of Yemeni hospitals that are still functioning.
So, you know, the U.S. has reduced its aid from 900 million dollars to 400 million this year.
Saudi Arabia and the UAE have virtually cut their humanitarian aid to Yemen to zero, close to zero.
So, you know, this, you know, when we actually get a clear picture of, you know, the you know, just the absolute devastation and the death toll of the Yemeni people from all of this, you know, it will become clear, hopefully to the to the whole world that the U.S. has and its allies have just participated in, you know, really, really, I think what we can quite fairly and soberly call a genocide in Yemen.
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
It's a deliberate targeting of the civilian population, not just in this strike or that one, but overall as a strategy.
There's no question about that.
It's not collateral damage at all.
It's look, let's bomb that apartment complex.
That'll be fun.
Let's bomb that hospital full of dying children with cholera.
But now, so let me ask you about this.
You know, the the justification, half the justification for all this in the U.S. or for America's relationship with Saudi, not that they talk about the war, but, you know, a lot of the justification for this is that, hey, you know, MBS is a millennial.
And, you know, he's a hit new 21st century crown prince who, you know, is opening up movie theaters and letting women drive and liberalizing the society.
And aren't you glad that he's not a bin Laden night?
And so, you know, here he is walking around with movie stars and pounding around at a deli with Mike Bloomberg in New York.
And so, you know, other than that one thing about, you know, killing all those people and his killing of that one guy, what a great, you know, progressive 21st century modernist reformer who deserves our support.
What about that?
Well, yeah, I mean, that that that puts him puts him in the same category as Bush, Obama, Trump, you know, really, Americans have been deluded to think that, you know, if our if our leaders are cool people or, you know, people who we can relate to, you know, it doesn't matter if they're if they're killing millions of people in other countries.
And, you know, this is just this is, again, just the absolute moral bankruptcy of, you know, frankly, the end of the American empire.
You know, another article we wrote a couple of weeks ago talking about Michelle Flournoy, who is supposedly Joe Biden's top pick for secretary of defense.
And we wrote an article titled Will Michelle Flournoy be the angel of death for the American empire?
And, you know, this quite likely.
Yes.
Yes.
I mean, this is this is really what we're looking at.
Or, you know, we're trying to get out ahead of it.
If Biden wins and we make an issue of this, you know, his appointments and and the kind of, frankly, neocon neocon Democrats he's likely to appoint.
But but, you know, we also talked about this as, you know, the end of a decadent empire.
You know, we recited I don't know if your listeners know about John Glove, who was the British general who commanded the Jordan's Arab Legion, you know, back in the 1940s, 30s and 40s.
And in his retirement, he became quite a historian and a writer, and he wrote a little book called The Fate of Empires, in which he looked at, you know, the dozen or so major empires of world history and concluded that not one of them had lasted more than 250 years and that they all went through a sort of he defined six phases of empire.
And the last one is the age of decadence and decline.
And and really, you know, he wrote that back in the 1970s.
But you look at if you look at the way he described that in the cases of other empires, the US just fits right into that that picture, you know, the level of absolute systemic corruption in our whole political life.
You know, elections driven completely by money and and the power of wealth, wealth to control politics.
And, you know, the absolute, you know, and the country just being riven, as we saw in that debate the other night by, you know, just absolutely really, you know, super contradicts, you know, superficial, but deep political hatred, you know, focused on complete rubbish.
Rubbish, in most cases on both sides.
But, you know, absolutely visceral, deep, deep hatred, you know, dividing the population.
And, you know, this.
So we asked in the article, you know, how are we going to transition from being a declining decadent empire to a brighter post imperial future?
And, you know, what would that look like?
And, you know, but but it should have voted Ron Paul in 2008, pal.
Yeah, right.
I'll tell you what, it's too late now.
So really, you know, we that's the kind of thing that our politicians should be talking about now.
And that's what Americans should be thinking about now is how do we how do we move on from here?
How do we move on to be a peaceful, sustainable country, you know, with with shared prosperity for all our people and and, you know, humane policies towards our fellow human beings around the world?
Well, I'll tell you what, Nicholas, for people who really think that worse has got to come before it gets better, the collapsitarians and so forth.
I think Michelle Flournoy is a great pick for Secretary of Defense.
If she doesn't get us all nuked and she has a great career of total incompetence.
You know, you know, I mean, the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists now has us at 100 seconds to midnight, you know, closer than at the height of the Cold War.
And she really is absolutely as dumb as she looks.
So and yet it seems like the entire left half and the center of the American foreign policy establishment have invested such confidence in her, right?
Like she's Hillary Clinton and Samantha Power combined somehow, even though all she did was triple and then lose the Afghan war.
What feather does she have in her cap anywhere other than she's a woman?
Well, she uses the same trick that Obama used as being a Democrat and yet being absolutely wedded to war, wedded to the war party.
And so essentially what she has done in each Democratic administration she has served under, that's Clinton and Obama, was to to define, you know, a kind of language and a way that Democrats could talk about war in terms of humanitarian invention and humanitarian intervention.
And in terms of defending vital interests around the world, which, of course, if you position your troops and your fleet, you know, across every, you know, every region of the world, then, yes, you have vital interests all over the world.
But that is precisely what the U.N. charter was was written very carefully to put an end to that, you know, defending, quote unquote, vital interests halfway around the world is no longer a justification for war under the the U.N. charter and the international laws that were drafted as a result of the two world wars in.
Except that the people who wrote the law can always break it.
And so here we are.
Right.
That's it.
I'm so sorry we're out of time because I could talk with you about this stuff for hours, man.
You're great.
And I love all your articles.
And I'm so grateful that you and Medea put out such great stuff and let us run it at Antiwar.com the way you do, Nicholas.
You're so welcome.
And I thank you guys for publishing it.
OK, great.
Talk again soon, bud.
Yeah.
Bye, Scott.
OK, guys, that is Nicholas J.S. Davies writing, usually with Medea Benjamin at Antiwar.com.
This one is Will Michelle.
Oh, no.
The last one was Will Michelle Flournoy be the angel of death for the American empire?
And then the latest two years after Khashoggi's brutal murder.
Why is America still an accomplice to MBS's crimes?
The Scott Horton Show, Antiwar Radio, can be heard on KPFK 90.7 FM in L.A., APSradio.com, Antiwar.com, ScottHorton.org, and LibertarianInstitute.org.
