Hi y'all, welcome back to the show.
It's Anti-War Radio.
Our next guest is James Bovard, Jim Bovard, same difference, jimbovard.com And especially jimbovard.com/blog is the website, and he wrote the books The Farm Fiasco, The Fair Trade Fraud, Feeling Your Pain, Freedom and Chains, and I'm trying to remember more from the Clinton years that I know there's more I can't remember them all, and then of course The Bush Betrayal and Terrorism and Tyranny, then The Bush Betrayal, and then Attention Deficit Democracy, which if you haven't read Attention Deficit Democracy Tell someone that you love to get it for you for Christmas because it's really good.
Hey Jim, welcome to the show.
Hey Scott Thanks for having me on.
I really mean that too.
I really dug that book man.
That was great work.
Hey, well, thanks Hey, you know Scott It's funny, you know, to be hearing the ads for the show, to hear Ernie Hancock doing a pitch for his radio show Ernie is the one guy who makes you sound mellow Yeah, that's probably true in fact I wanted to say too and I completely spaced it out on the way in from the break that I wanted to I didn't get a Chance to finish saying so I wanted to finish saying how appreciative I was of Ernie for having me at the Freedom Summit over the weekend and how cool it was to meet Stefan Molyneux and Butler Schaefer And I got to sit and have lunch with Butler and that was really cool.
And it was good times, man And so I don't know when the videos are coming out but there are a lot of really great speeches comparing America to Rome and the Soviet Union and and all the corruption and People singing songs about guns and it was it was awesome, man.
I had a great time Well the stories I've heard Rome had better orgies Yeah, although I don't know man, but the Soviets probably had worse The Soviets probably had worse, yeah, I can imagine that would be true.
Yeah, definitely America though You're on the wrong coast buddy, well That's true.
That's true.
I was almost I was almost spontaneous and I said no, this is family radio.
So yeah No, yeah, you can only go so far.
All right.
Well anyway, so look man The thing is about Jim is even though he's really funny He writes about really mean stuff that the government does to people all the time.
He's funny about it So tell us the big punchline about Barack Obama murdering people punchline Well, you know, I've got a story in the new American conservative American conservative magazine on his assassination policy How much evidence should the US government be obliged to show before it kills you none according to bit Obama administration How much evidence should the government be obliged to possess of your wrongdoing before they target you for killing?
That's a secret and if some court makes the government answer that question the terrorists win Awesome.
Now, wait a minute Is this an old mp3 that somehow got stuck back in the loop?
Because it sounds like you're talking about George W Bush say five years ago Well, you know Bush had the same kind of doctrine.
I mean Bush's folks did not push it as blatantly in public But there was testimony by the the stooge Iran office of legal counsel in the early 2006 closed testimony Capitol Hill saying that the The the Bush could order an assassination here in the u.s Newsweek picked up on that and nobody else bothered to print about it because it's like, you know It's like well, it was it was it was classified testimony So we shouldn't worry about but no I mean this and and yet the the Obama people take this beyond classified testimony And now it's the law of the land according to the White House Which I guess is the ultimate authority on law as long as they keep their secrets right, so Now Bush I guess you're saying there was this one bit of testimony if they if they did Deliberately target American citizens for murder.
They try to keep it secret Of course There was the assassination in Yemen of a bunch of guys in a truck and they spun it at the at the time that they Were going after this other guy in the American Hey, he shouldn't have been in the truck with that guy But that's the way it goes Although I'm trying to remember who it was on the show This was saying that maybe that was in dispute that it really was the American that they were after there but there this kind of thing was few and far between yet Eli Lake had this interview with John Brennan in The Washington Times where he says there are dozens just outright I guess bragging about her where dozens of Americans on the Assassination list there to be killed by the CIA or JSOC or whoever can get there first Well, did Brennan say that there were dozens on on the list for killing or do you say that there were?
Dozens to don't to don't to don't I forgot the exact phrasing on that but it was a little more nuanced than that but no But it's also possible I'm mistaken on that so well I mean, I want to get it right, but I'm pretty sure that was the deal and you know Well, here's the other thing and I know I'm right about this that when they talk about Anwar I'll walk he who's the poster boy for the an American who's so al-qaeda that we got a murder him in the Washington Time and the Washington Post the the sources the anonymous government officials are telling the Washington Post and Behind the the veil of anonymity.
They still will not go further than to say We believe he may have ties to terrorism Right, that was it.
Yeah, there was there was a comment by a Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair testify early this year He said that the that the target to kill decisions depend on quote whether that American is Involved in a group that is trying to attack it.
Wow involved.
Yeah, this is this is this is vague This is you know involved.
Well, you know that some of us got an email from them.
Yep.
That's him kill him.
So All right, so let's see it starts out here with Well, I'll go back over this in the break I mean does he does certainly start out just talking about there are dozens of American citizens that are the threat and I think it's Later in the article where he gets to yeah, and so we're gonna murder them But really even if we're just talking about and we're all walkie the one guy that they've you know Deliberately named as their poster boy for this policy that really in legal terms Means what I mean Well, this is the same thing as as you know, if they can do it to him They can do it to you or is it different maybe well the the thing that's important is that the Obama team like the Bush?team thinks of the entire world as a battlefield for the world war on terrorism and Thus the the same standard would apply for killing somebody in Yemen, which?
And the same standard could apply for Iowa or North Dakota So, I mean it might be more important to avoid witnesses, but It's it's amazing that the media asks so little evidence when the government does do one of these the whack jobs well, remember when they Arrested the Lackawanna six who were the guys who are my goodness the guy in Yemen's friends actually And dig Cheney wanted to use the army to go and invade this New York town to arrest these guys That overhold it or something Well, this is you know, this is typical of how the government tries to convince us that these folks well it's the same thing that some big city police departments do they they they send in this SWAT team for a Routine search warrant to try to convince people.
Well, this is such a dangerous situation But it's the government itself that makes it vastly more dangerous than what it is Yeah, well, but it it's the legal precedent set.
It's the You know the The pit in the pendulum or whatever, you know where it's on its way it ain't quite here yet We're not feeling it but then I'm reading Matthew Rothschild in the progressive over and over again, he's reporting on this Northern Command and was a 3,000 hardened Iraq war veterans active-duty veterans in the Northern Command that includes the United States and And now they're saying that the Obama team is really ratifying It seems the policy that you wrote about all those years in the Bush years that oh, yeah The president can do whatever he wants.
I guess occasionally they cite the authorization to use military force But this doesn't sound like it's based on that really well Actually, I think I think some of the folks Are you talking about the the Northern Command or the assassination policy?
Either or I'm gonna make sure the two is what I'm afraid of you understand Yeah, but well, you know something which has changed as far as the concerns about the the Northern Command since the GOP took over Half of Congress.
I'm sure they'll do really vigorous oversight on this.
Well, it's a big government program and we know they're against that Yeah, it's just you know, it is amazing how few people in the GOP give a darn about even knowing what the government's doing I mean, it's feel like most of them would would certainly prefer that.
Nobody knows what the government's doing including themselves Yeah, I I always prefer it when they're out of power and they can at least pretend You know like we got some good things out of those Waco hearings, right because they were dirt Yeah, some good dirt indeed Hey, everybody should watch all those Mike McNulty films about that If you never have the rules of engagement a new revelation in the FLIR project Just had to work that in there we're talking with Jim Bovard.
He's the author of every book that was ever written.
We'll be right back All right, y'all welcome back to the show It's anti-war radio So then quiet I got Jim Bovard on the line He's the author of attention deficit democracy Something in there about the battered and citizen syndrome, I think you're right Jim we just Somehow get convinced that they do this to us because they love us Something like that.
Yeah, it's like a bad SM joke Yeah, it works.
Well, I looked up that Eli Lake article and you're right He says there are dozens of Americans on the list of bad guys around the world And yeah, we reserve the right to kill them if we feel like it But he doesn't say that they're all on the list to be killed right now.
Well, then it's good that they're moderate.
Hey, right Yeah, see that's a very important distinction there Well, it's always it's always reassuring that these people are using their secret power reasonably.
Yeah.
Well, you know, it puzzles me Not very much, but I've known some people who?
Well, hell just like in years driving a cab or whatever meeting people like this strangers were people who really really believe in the law they really believe in it and for the good reasons for the for fairness and justice and and Process and accountability and and they really believe in it and it seems like you would have Somewhere in there would be somebody going man, you know guys if we do this There's really no going back from this and are we sure that we're this evil or something?
You know, is there no conscience at all in that town?well, it's not a question of people think who think of this as evil because Simply because they are part of the US government and high up in it.
That means by definition.
They're a force for good You have any party members?
Well, yeah And and and it's simply it's simply a question of totally unleashing the good guys to vanquish the bad guys This is this is how they view it and legal technicalities I mean Georgia Bush has been trapping around the country saying that that he didn't order torture because some bootlicker lawyer told him it wasn't torture So he didn't break the law I mean this this is the kind of lawyers that are attracted to government power folks who are pliable folks were saying yes master You have this power right the ones I like I'll work for the ACLU and the Center of Constitutional Rights and yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's some good folks out there but it's but the kind of folks who the kind of lawyers who prosper in Washington are are yes, man and bootlickers and And yet it's amazing that Bush could go around the country making this You know bogus argued that he didn't order torture and people will nod their heads.
They well, that's good.
I mean Well, you know, I mean I think Looking back kind of think about we're wrapping up the decade here and whatever and it seems like Bush's biggest Accomplishments or the clash of civilization with the Muslim world and Pushing executive power, you know, Reagan violated the Bolan amendment sent death squads El Salvador, Nicaragua And now you know, they're well always they're scandalous stuff But it seems like Bush's legacy really is he destroyed even the pretense of law binding the president's power forever I mean a way way worse than Nixon and and he wasn't forced to resign.
There was no accountability As John Brennan says in that interview with Eli Lake and the Washington Times, yes, we're building a lot on Upon a lot of great work that they did and we're just carrying it forward now.
He that's their words, right?
And the thing it's astounding is to see how many abuses that George Bush Canonized and how many perverse interpretations of the law in the Constitution which he and his stooges Got accepted by Congress and the mainstream media and were not issues for the American public I mean I was I was from 2004 on I was wrong as far as the torture scandal Because I kept thinking that was going to spur a backlash by the American public and much of the media Well, I was you know Pollyannish on that It said it just it just turned out that it was it turned out to be proof of George Bush and Dick Cheney's macho Right.
Yeah, I mean they got away I remember listening to the right-wing radio station out of San Antonio when the Abu Ghraib photos first broke And the lady was saying no, no, no, this is too far This is just wrong, whatever and then and within a couple of days, okay well it's just the guys on the night shift got carried away and whatever and then by the time all the details came out and torture team and attention deficit democracy and all these things and that's all old news and And yeah, really like tying people up and then beating them unmercifully like it's okay now I guess you know because they did it and they got away with it same thing with the wiretapping thing the rice and story and Lick blood story came out in The New York Times and George Bush held a press conference the next day and he said yes I'm guilty of millions of felony counts of violations of the FISA statute in 1978.
What are you gonna do about it?
That's what I thought and that was it Well, not only that but but George Bush bragged about that in his 2006 State of the Union address And he got standing applause from the GOP members accepting Ron Paul, of course And I think he goes to those things.
Well, okay, perhaps not but yeah I mean, I'm sure he's got better things to do So, right It was too early craving that he had all these members of Congress giving a standing ovation For someone who trashed the Constitution and trashed the Fourth Amendment and trashed any Has showed utter contempt for any limits on his own power and yet this has happened again and again in area after area And it just seems as if the that the bullshit reflex has been lost that folks Don't don't recognize government political BS anymore Right.
Yeah, and of course pull Nancy Pelosi went right up there and said impeachment is off the table no matter what like I guess even if he killed someone that She cared about she still wouldn't impeach well I mean you know George Bush could stand there in a televised speech and pull out a six-shooter and and Pluck four or five members of Congress from their chairs and people say well, you know Thank goodness.
He only had one round or one one six six shots or whatever So I just like it's amazing what they put up with they would you know the there were so few members of Congress who had the gumption to challenge him on his abuses and some of those who did got Shot down because of it like tender fine gold right I'm talking with Jim Bovard from the Future Freedom Foundation.
I forgot to say that before so I'm saying it now FFF org You think they could target Julian Assange for assassination?
You think they'll go that far?
I don't know, but it's really great you and anti-war comm have been the forefront Holding up the banner for truth on this.
I mean I have been outraged by the Stampede for for killing the guy when all he did was expose How the US government is lying and abusing Americans the American system of the political system and the entire world in so many ways and If telling the truth deserves a death sentence and there's a lot of people who should be you know Add to the list, but it's amazing to see there's been so little backlash in the u.s Against these calls for Assange's assassination or a murder.
Actually, it's just out-and-out murder Yeah, well and in the media too.
I mean, this is their First Amendment right that I got a press pass man I'm allowed through this yellow line or whatever.
This is their own freedom that they're Turning against you can't get the guys on you know I read Glenn Greenwald had this whole thing about what Wolf Blitzer said in defense of the state and oh, no Are you gonna fix the leaking fast enough and whatever?
But the only thing I saw Wolf Blitzer was he was interviewing a coward hiding in his silhouette in shadow Saying yeah, Bradley Manning's gay.
All right, and I'm going man.
This is all they can do.
This is the WikiLeaks story this is what they found in those documents is that Assange's a rapist and Bradley Manning is gay and well The thing about that right about free speech man.
Well, the thing about the the raping It looks like the Interpol is basically it's half of the case on a broken condo.
I mean seriously, I mean According to what the press has said the there are two women and the first one said she consented But after the condo broke she didn't want to have keep going and so that's that's the basis of her complaint So I am wondering if Interpol is gonna start going after anybody who had a broken condo That's funny man, I don't know Why not?
I guess as long as they're publishing Secrets and you know, the thing is to me too is the unreality of it.
They're talking about prosecuting Assange for treason Well, look Assange isn't even an American we just stop right there how ridiculous is that now they're gonna pass another law designating Designating WikiLeaks as a terrorist organization It's a terrorist organization because it told the truth about the US government.
I Really think I agree with Anthony Gregory and Romano and others who have said you're either good on WikiLeaks or screw you man This is the dividing line if you believe in freedom or you don't you're bad on this issue You're with the Tories.
You're on the side of the King of England.
You ought to go and live with them with Benedict Arnold Well, um, and there's there's a lot of people who I hope leave and make that trip I know me too a lot of people there's 310 million something of us now and it's probably 60 at least percent there Well, I can't get people to say wait a minute free speech guys.
You can't even get that out of them anymore Well, you know there was a point you mentioned about the press pass earlier Keep in mind that the thing that dominates a lot of journalists perception is that press pass is issued by the government Right.
I mean seriously, this is the club you got it.
Yep Yeah, you know that documentary buying the war by Bill Moyers He has Dan Rather saying you don't need a memo that reminds you that these are multi-billion dollar corporations have enormous Interest in keeping DC happy because it can destroy them.
Nobody needs to remind you.
That's just the law That's how it is All right.
Well, anyway, we're all out of time.
Thanks very much for joining us on the show today.
Jim is great Hey, thanks Scott.
That's Jim Bovar.
He's got a new in the American conservative magazine
