All right y'all welcome back to the show.
It's anti-war radio.
I'm Scott Right now I'm looking at churness dot wordpress.com.
That's the blog of Ira churness.
It's c h e r n us churness dot wordpress Dot-com and he oftentimes writes over at Tom dispatch And of course then we turn around a feature every bit of that and Tom Englehart's archive at anti-war comm This one you know how they do it at Tom dispatch There's always two titles because Tom has a little mini essay at the top introducing the guest essay of the day Is Palestine America's next Vietnam and will the GOP's victory energize?
Mideast doves so welcome to show Ira.
How are you doing?
Thank you very well nice to be with you good Yeah, it's good.
Talk to you again, so um Obviously well, I don't know how obvious it is But I I guess from scanning this thing you're not talking about We're going to get bogged down in a guerrilla war with the US Marine Corps in the Gaza Strip or anything Are you no not at all, but I think that the Israel-Palestine conflict is mobilizing political energies in this country on both sides hawks and doves with a kind of intensity that reminds me a lot of the Vietnam War and In many ways when you think about the United States around the world Repressing movements of national liberation the most obvious example that comes to one's mind is the Palestinian movement for national liberation which the u.s.
Has been collaborating with Israel and repressing for a long time And we've still got a lot of Hawks as we did back in the Vietnam days.
We're sort of cheering on that Repression of a national self-determination movement but we also have a lot of doves in this country who are saying that just as the Vietnamese had the right of National self-determination back in the 60s 70s.
So today we'd like to see the United States Step aside and allow the Palestinians Independence and self-determination and we'd like to see our government stop blocking What is to our minds clearly the path of justice as well as peace and security For Palestinians and for Israelis as well Well, you know, I think if we just start from there We take the point of view of what's best for Israel never even mind the United States and never even mind the Palestinians Per se as I hate to use that phrase.
But anyway, what would George Carlin say?but What's good for Israel if we take the point of view from even Netanyahu's point of view or somebody who's a friend in Netanyahu?
Like what what what is the right policy?
Well, I have for them to just dominate the region forever for them to occupy the West Bank never expel the Palestinians But never let them Control their own lives in the West Bank and just live like that forever doing obviously most Israelis understand that the status quo is not defensible and It's really a bad deal for Israelis.
It keeps them insecure it keeps them uncertain and it keeps them from fulfilling what most Israelis think of as the the Zionist vision of a genuine democratic state where Jews could flourish where Jews could be free to develop their own Personal aspirations they can't do that While they're an oppressor nation while they're an occupier nation while they send their young men and women off to be Occupiers men those men women men and women come back after a few years at the ripe old age of 20 or 21 Having the scars of being an occupier and oppressor most Israelis know that this is a terrible way for their country to live and I've got to admit, you know, I've been a Jewish peace activist for nearly 40 years now and Although I have a deep concern for the Palestinian people.
I'll admit a lot of my motivation is selfish I've got loved ones who've been living in Israel family members for many many years and I've got a deep concern as a Jew about Israel and the main point here is that the well-being of Jews in Israel Jews here in the u.s.
And the Palestinians are inextricably tied together there's no way that The Israeli Jewish community or the world Jews community can really do well as long as Palestinians are being oppressed and so it's kind of like two boats that are tied together Either they both float or they both sink and unfortunately US policy for too long has been sinking those boats.
I think there's some possibility now that We have a president administration Who are making at least a little bit of effort to improve the situation to bring a just peace The main problem for our president is that he's tied up in internal American domestic politics that prevent him from I think making the kind of moves that he would really like to make I'm being hopeful here being optimistic But he's shown some signals that he's willing to put pressure on the Israelis in a way that no president has in many many decades But politically it's just too dangerous for him right now and that's not his fault.
That's our fault we the American people we as a people have not stood up and Said that we want what's best for Palestine for Israel and for the United States We just we doves have just not made our voice loud enough Our voice is growing but it's time for us to really make it a lot more forceful make that demand on the president give him the Political backing and support that I think he wants But it's really up to us Well, what if I just had my way and I went ahead and unilaterally declared Israeli independence and let them handle their own foreign policy If they want a bunch of right-wing nationalist Avigdor Lieberman's run in their government and let them have it But why do I got to pay for this doesn't have anything to do with me?
It shouldn't I'm a Texan what does actually have a lot to do with you because as our military leaders to the thing as the Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff has said as General Petraeus has said as long as we've got tens of thousands of soldiers Over there, and I'm not saying they should be there I'd love to see every one of them home today but as long as they're there and as long as we have all sorts of civilian personnel over there all sorts of corporate investment over there the attitude of People in the Middle East the attitude of people in predominantly Muslim countries makes a huge difference to the well-being of Americans and as long as we're supporting the Israeli occupation and Supporting the the Israelis with all this military aid We are going to be extremely unpopular Very understandably, we're going to be unpopular in the Muslim world and that puts our our people at risk Danger now, I guess one option is to just get all of our people out of the Middle East but you know, I just don't see that happening.
I think we've got a lot better chance at least of Moving toward the US being the kind of even-handed broker that you know Our government always claims that we're the even-handed broker.
In fact, that's never been the case You know, you bring up guerrilla war and it seems like Netanyahu is basically in the position of the gorilla All he has to do is not lose and he gets his way And what's Obama going to do about it?
Nothing?well Obama actually has Shown that he has the president United States not a you know any president of the United States has power over the Israelis and you know, I read the Israeli press every day and some of the Leading commentators the leading pundits in Israel.
They say over and over again Ultimately when the u.s Gives orders the Israelis follow those orders if those orders are serious enough And actually there have been a number of cases that a piece on Huffington Post a couple of weeks back Which detailed since Obama's been president a number of cases where the Israelis admitted?
That they pulled back.
They scaled back their demands For example the building of settlements now granted no single settlement should even have been built They should certainly shouldn't be expanded.
But in fact, they have not All right.
Hold it.
Hold it right there.
We'll get back to the settlement freeze right after this.
It's Ira Charnas from Tom dispatch calm anti-war radio Professor at the University of Colorado Boulder.
I meant to say All right y'all welcome back to the show It's anti-war radio, I'm Scott Horton.
I'm talking with Ira Charnas.
He teaches religious studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder writes for Tom dispatch, he's got a blog charnas wordpress.com and Focuses on Israel Palestine Etc.
And now when we were going out to break there Ira you were talking about how perhaps Obama has the Motivation and the ability to really force concessions out of Netanyahu and you were Beginning to talk about the settlement issue there before the break interrupted us Yeah, I was just making the point that of course in principle all those settlements should be dismantled But the political fact is that it's a painful step for Netanyahu to stop Expansion of any settlement because he gets attacked from his right But the reality is that he has stopped the expansion of thousands of settlements only because the Obama administration told him to and Similarly just in the last few weeks remember a couple weeks ago.
Oh Harrets this the freeze that never was about how they've been expanding these settlements all along anyway and making new ones, too Yes, but at the same time they've also been Preventing settlements the government when the government can't step in it's a complicated legal thing Sometimes the government can control it.
Sometimes I can't when the government has legal control over settlement expansion In fact, there hasn't been very much settlement expansion even in the last six weeks or so since that freeze expired The other point I want to stress is that a few weeks back Oh Netanyahu was saying the only thing he cares about is that the Palestinians must recognize Israel as a Jewish state That demand has simply disappeared Why does it disappear?
Because quietly behind the scenes he gets the message from Washington when Washington lets him know that they want something really Seriously when they really mean it the Israelis back down again The crucial point here is how much political support does Obama have for making these demands upon Israel?
When he feels confident that he's got enough support that we doves are speaking up loudly enough Then he does push Netanyahu.
He twists his arm to get him to heal But it's just a question of politics here.
It's not a question of what Obama believes in It's just a question of politics when your article you really explain how you believe that the politics are changing in DC and that Well talk about how you explain your article.
Yeah, the Republicans won these midterms but yeah, I think you see the the peace position among American Jews is solidifying as The Republican right-wing is getting worse and worse on Israel Maybe it'll actually provoke a reaction among doves and and get people in gear to really try to do something about this Yeah, I think those of us who are in the peace movement know that we're much more motivated activated When the Republicans are in charge because politics works best when you're fighting against the people in charge So that now of course the Republicans are not in charge But they're giving us a bigger target now this sense that the Republicans are on the rise Should energize the progressive movement.
I'm just saying that as a kind of Description I'm not saying you know that well the election of the Democrat Silence, so I guess we can hope for the other way around as a political observation you know that the more the Republicans gain the more likely it is to see peace activists feel motivated and Certainly within the Jewish community the exit polls told us that a large majority of Jews Were willing to see Obama put more pressure on Israel something It's very possible that the trajectory we're seeing now continues in a few years we could have a situation where all of the ardent supporters of the right-wingers in Israel are Republicans and Mostly Gentiles you know and where most Jews are Backing the Democrats and Obama saying let's put more pressure on Israel So it could be a very different kind of situation the main point here Is that it's not a question of the Jews or the Jewish lobby?
Preventing the u.s..
From doing the right thing.
It's much more a question of Republican hawks from mostly from districts where there aren't many Jews Who are who are trying to push the administration in a more hawkish?
Direction yeah right-wing nationalists in both countries arms manufacturers in their front men right right and and the right-wingers in Israel unfortunately have a lot of power now, but you know the coalition in Israel is very tenuous actually more tenuous than people think and One of the theories is that the Obama administration's strategy is to split that coalition To force Netanyahu to go back into a coalition with the somewhat more moderate Kadima party which could then move Negotiations forward so my main point is that this is a very fluid situation That it's not at all.
You know so much in the progressive press we read all the Israelis run everything the Israelis are in control There's nothing we Americans can do that's simply not true.
It's a very fluid very unpredictable situation and the more that peace activists and progressives inject their voice into the Conversation the more we can move the conversation because there are levers of power there are places where?
This process can be moved in a new direction.
We're not stuck.
We're not powerless.
That's my main point Yeah, well one of the themes that you develop in the article as well again It's is Palestine America's next Vietnam in The Tom Englehart archive at anti-war calm and also at Tom dispatch calm you talk about the Presbyterian Church and some of these organizations of American Protestant Christians who are taking the peace position against The John Hagee's and Pat Robertson's of America.
Yeah if you look at any Significant group in the United States you'll find hog midi talks and midi stuff Christians are divided Jews are divided the power elite is divided the military I suspect is divided.
There's certainly plenty of evidence that within the military.
There's powerful of voices for peace The administration itself is divided and so again that the crucial point here is that there's a debate going on within every constituency that cares about this issue and There's a place for those of us who are proud to be doves those of us who want a just peace There's a place for us whoever you are.
There's a place for you to get connected with the forces that are pushing for a just peace in the Middle East and And I suspect this is what Obama's sitting there thinking.
I wish they would push me I wish they would back me In putting more pressure on Israel, but until he hears powerful voices powerful large groups of people calling for a just peace calling for us to support the National self-determination of the Palestinians until they hear that in the White House.
It's politically too dangerous for them to move Well, and you know on the theme of the divide within the power elite you talk in your book or in the article Pardon me at Tom dispatch comm about Zbigniew Brzezinski Brent Scowcroft Bill Clinton I guess you could have thrown James Baker in there what counts nowadays as the old CFR wise men types They all want a settlement here.
Yes and On the other hand you've still got the old neocons You can never count them out and they're pushing in the other direction to try to block a settlement and So there's a for those of us who want to see a just peace We actually do have allies in some pretty powerful places I mentioned the New York Times is almost like on a crusade to support a just two-state solution and As you say they've got the support of former National Security Advisors and some of the most influential insiders In the country, and so it's not as though those of us in the peace movement or some kind of ragtag Marginal outsiders.
We've got some powerful allies in Now I won't say that we're going to agree with them on every issue All right, because certainly when it comes to issues like should we include Hamas?
Should we make this a kind of anti-iranian move the power elite will say no.
No, no Hamas is too dangerous Yes, yes.
Yes.
We have to ratchet the power against Iran I'm not supporting those kinds of positions, but you know in politics strange bedfellows, right you You work where you can With the people you can work with and then you turn around and you say to them But when it comes to Iran, we can't agree with you in the power elite when it comes to Hamas We need to have them included in the peace process Alright, well, thanks very much.
Ira.
I return to everybody Tom dispatch calm Tom Englehart's archive at anti-war calm appreciate your insight today Okay, thanks a lot
