Sorry, I'm late.
I had to stop by the Wax Museum again and give the finger to FDR.
We know Al-Qaeda, Zawahiri, is supporting the opposition in Syria.
Are we supporting Al-Qaeda in Syria?
It's a proud day for America, and by God, we've kicked Vietnam syndrome once and for all.
Thank you very, very much.
I say it, I say it again, you've been had.
You've been took.
You've been hoodwinked.
These witnesses are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else accepts as fact.
He came, he saw us, he died.
We ain't killing they army, but we killing them.
We be on CNN, like, say our names, say it, say it three times.
The meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world.
Then there's going to be an invasion.
Alright, you guys, introducing Asa Wynn-Stanley from the Electronic Intifada.
You remember him, he did all those great reports about Israeli support for Syrian Al-Qaeda.
And we talked to him about that back, oh, I don't know, a couple years ago now.
And here he's got a very great piece there, a very important piece at the Electronic Intifada.
It's called Israel Lobby's Command Force Taken Out.
Welcome back to the show, Asa, how are you doing?
I'm good, thanks, Scott.
Happy to have you here.
So, first of all, remind us about the Al Jazeera documentary that's behind the recent developments you're describing here, please, if you could.
Well, in 2016, the Qatari satellite channel, which has stations in Arabic and English, Al Jazeera launched as part of its investigative unit.
It launched months long investigations into the Israel lobby on both sides of the Atlantic simultaneously.
It released in 2017, the first of these films titled The Lobby, focused on the Israel lobby in the UK.
But unbeknownst to everyone at the time, or to most people at the time, I suppose we should say, it was doing the same in the US at the same time.
Now, what happened was that they used a little bit of the US footage in the UK footage, in the UK film, I should say.
So the undercover journalist who infiltrated the Israel lobby in the US, a little bit of that footage was used in the UK film.
So that tipped off the people who were in it to the fact that, oh no, not only have they done this in the UK, they've done it in the US.
What then happened was the subject of the film, the Israel lobby, all these various organisations, sort of network of pro-Israel organisations in the US, you know, a large number of groups, a lot of them very well funded.
They then began to lobby Qatar to not release the film.
And there was an intense amount of pressure.
And in the end, Qatar basically folded and they censored the film.
The film was never released by Al Jazeera.
However, so the UK film was released, broadcast in 2017.
By October 2017, later the same year, the US film was complete.
But it was kind of kicked into the long grass so that Al Jazeera's official line was, oh, no, it hasn't been canned.
You know, we're just working out some legal problems, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
I mean, I reported on this quite extensively for the Electronic Idfada.
I mean, it was all spin.
It was not true.
The film had been, according to our sources, the film were very good.
The film had been completely cleared by Al Jazeera's lawyers.
You know, for undercover filming, especially in the US, there's a lot of sort of legal loopholes you kind of have to go through.
But they did all these things.
You know, there was no problem with the film itself.
It was just that it was too hot to handle.
So luckily, we at the Electronic Idfada and some other websites managed to obtain the film.
And we released it simultaneously online together, along with a French website and Lebanon's Al-Akhbar Arabic newspaper.
So all three of us released it together at the same time.
And it resulted in the film The Lobby USA being released.
And people can still watch it online, watch it on YouTube, go to our website, electronicidfada.net.
And you can watch it there.
And I highly recommend doing so.
It's a really interesting watch.
And this is all a bit of a preamble to say that the main subject of the American focused documentary was this group called the Israel Project.
Now, wait, hold that thought for just one second, because I just want to mention here again, that people can find it's a four part documentary, the Israel Lobby USA, they can find it at electronicidfada.net.
And they can, I think, still, I hope, find it on YouTube, if it hasn't been censored yet there.
Not yet.
And, you know, people should know.
I mean, because what the hell, people recommend all the time, oh, you should read this book, oh, you should watch this film, or whatever it is.
This thing is absolutely devastating.
And you have to watch all four parts, too.
It's, you know, any one of them is great.
But you got to see all four pieces of this thing.
And here's the other thing about it.
Completely separate from the subject matter.
This kind of, well, I should say, this is the best example of undercover secret camera, you know, journalism, checking powerful forces that I've ever seen in my life.
And, I mean, this kind of thing is done from time to time.
But this is just absolutely incredible, where this journalist was taken into the confidence of the most powerful Israel lobbying organizations.
He didn't just go and talk to them.
He was hired by them.
So here he is at dinner, driving around, talking, shooting the shit, hiring people to do fake protests, and doing all these things.
He's doing the work.
He's part of the Israel lobby.
He's completely infiltrated this thing in order to bring you this information.
It's just incredible journalism.
I mean, I think even if you're just a hardcore pro-Zionist, Likudnik expansionist, you could still be like, man, that's some good journalism.
Or if you have no opinion at all, it's still good, you know?
They knew the power of this film, which is why they were desperate to quash it.
And partly succeeded, but not totally succeeded.
You know, I mean, you can see on YouTube, and there's several, you know, it's not just us that has copies of it.
People have obviously copied it, and there's lots of different copies of it on YouTube and other, you know, video sharing websites.
But even our copy alone has received hundreds of thousands, I believe, of views, not on YouTube, but on the first one we uploaded it to Daily Motion.
So it's, you know, it's still received quite a wide viewership.
But, I mean, I suppose we have to be honest and say that it would have received a lot more had it been broadcast on Al Jazeera.
But, you know, as Fox Mulder used to say, the truth is out there, and you can sort of watch the truth.
I mean, unlike The X-Files, this is, you know, this is like, I mean, I'm not saying anything bad about The X-Files.
I used to love The X-Files.
But this is not, you know, UFO stuff.
This is reality, you know?
Horse's mouth.
I mean, hey.
Yeah.
I mean, it's like you said, the undercover journalist who went by the name of Tony, he was working for, I believe, around five months inside the Israel Project.
He was an intern.
And at the end of the project, he was offered a job with the Israel Project because they were so impressed with him.
And part of the reason for that was because he was a young guy.
You know, he came over from, you know, he was British.
He came over from London.
They were kind of impressed by his accent and, you know, his intelligence.
He spoke all these different languages.
And also he was a young Jewish person.
And they were, you know, it was their kind of the way he portrayed himself was their kind of ideal of a young Zionist activist.
But unbeknownst to them, you know, he was this undercover reporter.
So they were kind of so.
I mean, I think that is the way he was embraced as a kind of sign of how desperate Israel lobby groups are to recruit the kind of next generation, because that is slipping away from them.
And I think the conclusion of the film itself shows that.
And that's really kind of actually the power of it, because it shows it does show that Israel lobby groups are very well funded.
You know, they're very, very close connections, good networking with establishment forces on both sides of the Atlantic.
But crucially, both films show historically the Israel lobby is in a long term decline and its power is slipping.
So it's kind of desperate to stop that.
So helping to censor this film is another attempt to do that.
I mean, it's kind of like sticking your finger in the proverbial dam.
Hold on just one second.
Be right back.
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When it comes to this journalism, I think, you know, if somebody did this to some regular person in some small business or some kind of thing, it might be going too far.
But in this case, there's really no question.
We're talking about the very purpose of a free press in the first place is to check power.
And these are extremely powerful organizations who get away with a lot of this stuff in secret.
That's the whole point of him going undercover.
And then so tell us about what exactly it was that he found in there that we might not have been able to read in The New York Times.
Yeah, good question.
What he found in the Israel lobby was this well-funded effort to influence American media, to infiltrate as well the narrative of the pro-Israel organizations into public life in America in lots of different ways.
So one of the key, one of the most interesting parts of the documentary is where they, he has a meeting with somebody who's doing some kind of secret, what he describes as secretive projects for the Israel project, sort of on the side, but, you know, very clearly connected to and funded by the Israel project.
And what they did was they set up a series of Facebook pages, which on the surface didn't appear to have anything to do with Israel.
It was interesting.
So they were Facebook pages focused on different things.
Like one was about women's issues or women's rights.
And one was about environmental issues.
Another one was just kind of a more generic one, like it was just history or this day in history kind of thing.
So they would post all these kind of fluffy, kind of benign content.
You know, some of them just had like kittens and doughnuts and all like this post kind of thing, kind of, you know, sort of clickbaity sort of stuff on these Facebook pages.
But then, so in the other kind of undercover filming, the person who set all this up explains that the point of this is what they would do is around about 20 or 25 percent of postings, they would then slip in pro-Israel stuff.
So, for example, on the page about...
Which by the way, you would be a total kook if you said, hey, it's funny, but this Facebook page about doughnuts seems to maybe be a front for the Israelis or something because they keep putting this.
People would be like, man, get over it, Asa.
What's your problem anyway?
Just because they back al-Qaeda in Syria doesn't mean that they're hosting your Facebook doughnut fan page.
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, essentially what the Israel Project was doing was a true version of the kind of exaggerated liberal fantasy about what, you know, kind of neoliberals think that Russia's been doing all this time.
Right.
That it's involved in all these super influential influence campaigns on Facebook and whatnot.
And so on.
So as one example, on the sort of women's issues Facebook page, I forget the exact name of it, but we've put it all in our reporting.
And of course, you can see on the film.
But they would sort of slip in like posts about Golda Meir, the former Israeli prime minister.
And they'd be like, oh, this is, you know, women's power or something like that, you know, and they just sort of slip these things in.
And these Facebook pages, you know, they weren't like a few, you know, obscure Russian troll farms.
They had wide influence.
You know, there was they had lots and lots of likes on Facebook.
I mean, some of these likes can be bought.
So it's hard to know how many are genuine.
But they certainly had like a large reach.
You know, there was there was some videos that they put out which had millions of views, you know.
So it's and this is all sort of mostly part of it was original content they were creating as part of the Israel project.
So this was a kind of an attempt to infiltrate this narrative into social media.
And it's interesting when they didn't say, you know, this is this is this is the Israel projects page.
You know, they just sort of put this front on it.
I mean, later on, when they figured out they'd been infiltrated by the undercover reporter, they added on some of the about pages, you know, very obscure part of the Facebook page.
They said this is a project of tip.
Well, who's going to know what tip is?
And if you Google tip, the Israel project doesn't come up, you know, unless you put tip Israel.
So, you know, they kind of tried to get around the Facebook rules in that way.
But that was only after the fact.
So, yeah, I mean, that was only one example of of of what they did.
The Israel project is not as well was not because it's now.
I mean, I haven't said this yet, but after the film, the Israel project is now shut down.
It's completely closed down.
It had a funding crisis.
Now, I should clarify that it wasn't as a result of the film alone or even mainly.
It was kind of a long term funding crisis that they had.
But in my view, I think that the film played a role in kind of tipping over the house of cards, I think.
Well, I must have, because as you quote in your piece here, here's the guy denouncing one of his major donors and saying, oh, my God, he calls all the time.
He won't shut up.
He won't leave me alone.
And then so not only did that guy never give him another dime, but probably a lot of other donors thought, oh, so that's what you think of your donors.
And that probably wasn't too good for business.
I don't know what percentage of the whole problem that was or.
Yeah, exactly.
Yes, this is this is really almost quite funny sequence in the film where Eric Gallagher, who was the director, a director of the Israel project and the head of fundraising.
And he was kind of Tony's line manager, as it were.
And he was sort of like his main source for the Israel project, I guess.
He's talking and he's in the sitting in the back of the cab and he's explaining to Tony how they they get their funding.
And he's he's saying, you know, well, we're not as rich as AIPAC that, you know, the main Israel lobby group, which is, you know, incredibly wealthy and really quite influential.
But he says we're starting to expand into the class of donors that AIPAC has.
He says that we the kind of the class of donors that we have, you know, they they're wealthy.
They give us, you know, maybe ten thousand dollars a year.
And it's his full time hobby.
And they they won't stop calling us about it and they won't shut up.
And he calls them a Yiddish word, nutniks, which means sort of pests or boars.
So he's like really sort of being on his own, unbeknownst to him on this.
So, yeah, I mean, you know, I think people in the Israel lobby, when this they when this film finally was leaked out by us and others, they were very.
Most of them were really quite disciplined in not mentioning it in any way, not not trying to give it inadvertent publicity even by denouncing it.
But, you know, the numbers and the views that these had don't lie.
And there's no doubt that a lot of these people were watching the film, you know, and that this went around their networks.
So it must have had an impact on on on their funding, even if it was a relatively minor one compared to historical trends.
Right.
And by the way, for the record, people who haven't seen it yet, the the Facebook page about the doughnuts is the least of it.
It's just one example of an extended influence campaign.
I mean, there's the targeting of the college students is probably the most important thing.
Yeah, there's also the targeting of Congress.
They explain exactly how they pressure Congress, how they put stories or take stories right out of The Washington Post at will.
Yeah, so there's there's a really I mean, they really did such a stupendous job with this film.
There's so many different aspects to it.
So they explain how the Israel project used to have extremely good links with The Washington Post.
You know, they put pressure on to have headlines change, you know, and they had a lot of success in this regard.
The Israel project used to have an office now closed down in Jerusalem that would send pre-prepared footage to journalists.
You know, they could be if there was an attack on Israelis by Palestinians, either alleged or in reality, they would be there the first at the scene.
Right.
These sort of people from the Israel project to be there on the first scene with the cameras, you know, giving out this kind of emotional footage of injured Israelis and so forth.
And they would give it out to two journalists who would often use it without even disclosing that it came from a pro-Israel lobbying organization.
And the point about the Facebook pages is that it's it was interesting because I when I was looking at some of these Facebook pages myself, I saw that even some of my Facebook friends.
I think one of them was a Palestinian, actually, and had liked one of these pages, one of the pages about history.
You know, they they don't even realize what they were clicking like on, you know, and they probably saw it from time to time.
So maybe the occasional weird post about, you know, how great Israel is.
And they probably thought, oh, that's strange.
And then they probably thought, oh, I'm being paranoid.
But then the whole time, the whole point of the exercise was not to raise awareness about this day in history, but it was to kind of infiltrate these narratives.
So, I mean, it shows what they're about.
And as you said as well, it gets into the whole way of how AIPAC uses its millions to buy Congress, in my view.
And, you know, Ilhan Omar came under a lot of attack for saying this, but actually she was right.
You know, this is what they do.
They actually they do spend millions on campaigns for Congress people.
And it's not just buying them, right?
It's buying the destruction of anyone who gets in their way.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, this is quite a good point.
If there's people who don't go for this money and they don't if they're particularly outspoken about, say, Palestinian rights or being critical of Israel, they do go into attack mode quite often and they they pour in a lot of money to it, to primaries, for example, say democratic primaries.
And they try and, you know, get them out.
And this is probably what they'll be trying to do to those critical progressive Democrats who've been critical of Israel.
Well, let's not get into the political crack up.
That's all of the conversation.
But I want to mention for people who are just hearing this podcast, if you go to the Libertarian Institute or Scott Horton dot org, we'll have links to this video and, of course, the article as well in the show notes there for everyone to look at.
We only have about a minute and a half left, but I want to give you a chance to talk about this Frank Luntz study from 2009, the Global Language Dictionary, which I love bringing up and I think is such an important thing, which was created by the Israel Project, the subjects of this documentary.
And I just think it's such an interesting thing.
So if you want to say something about that.
Yeah, this is this is what the Israel Project was probably most famous for a decade ago before its demise this year.
It's there was a leaked document called the Global Language Dictionary, which was written by the Republican pollster Frank Luntz.
And it was a whole series of advice on how pro-Israel, how to promote pro-Israel talking points in the press, when talking to the press, how to put it out there.
And they used to advise the language that worked best.
But to the American general public, based on, you know, Luntz's polling, once again, sympathy for Israel, it talks about words that work and they advise that, you know, if you sound like you're attacking the Palestinian people, even though they elected Hamas rather than their leadership, you will lose public support.
So that's why we hear a lot of the kind of these talking points have been quite influential.
And you hear a lot of modern Israeli or pro-Israeli propagandists talk about in these kinds of ways that, oh, well, the Palestinians are being persecuted by their own leaders, by Hamas and by the Palestinian Authority and so forth.
And as a way to kind of divert attention from the reality of Israeli crimes.
Well, and I really urge people to read that thing.
And maybe I'm oversimplifying it because you're right.
It was a decade ago.
But the way I remember it, that is that the subtitle could be how to lie about everything.
And why do you have to?
Because if you tell the truth about the situation at all, you're going to look terrible.
So what you have to do is you just have to turn reality on its head and say, yes, it is apartheid.
Why won't the Palestinian supremacists just let the poor little Jews live wherever they want?
It's not fair.
It's like Jim Crow South in the West Bank there.
And just, huh?
Whatever the truth is, just turn it right upside down.
And it's amazing to read.
It's funny, you know, because there's a certain level of self-reflection in there like, geez, guys.
Yeah, the truth really doesn't do us any favor.
So what you got to do is be dishonest.
You know, it's just throughout the whole thing.
It's crazy.
It's funny to read.
One of the things was, don't bring up zoning.
Israelis keep saying, yeah, we're bulldozing these Palestinians' homes and building apartment buildings where they used to be and that kind of thing.
But that's because they were outside of their zoning restrictions.
But Americans hate zoning restrictions, man.
Don't say that.
Just call it something else.
Call them a terrorist or something.
But don't say that this house that's been here since the 1850s is in violation of the code.
And so it's OK to bulldoze it because Americans will get, yeah, bad talking point.
Retire that one onto the next one.
It's very scientific, right?
He did his focus groups to hammer all this stuff out, what works and what doesn't and lies.
That's what works.
It's the only thing that works.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's I think that's right.
And it's the it's a sign of kind of the vacuum at the heart of their argument, really.
They use these kind of propaganda talking points, I think.
Similarly to that, I need to check.
But it may have been the Lentz report that pushed the whole idea of rephrasing instead of saying that they're illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank, just calling them Jewish neighborhoods.
Because, you know, who could possibly object to a Jewish neighborhood other than an anti-Semite?
Right.
So it is an interesting kind of propaganda terms that they use.
Yeah, absolutely.
All right.
Well, listen, I love your journalism.
It's ElectronicIntifada.net.
The article is Israel Lobby's Commando Force Taken Out.
And in reference to the great, formerly suppressed, but now leaked and published Al Jazeera documentary, The Lobby USA, Asa Winstanley.
Thank you again, sir.
Appreciate it.
Thanks for having me, Scott.
All right, y'all.
Thanks.
Find me at libertarianinstitute.org, at scotthorton.org, antiwar.com and reddit.com slash Scott Horton Show.
Oh, yeah.
And read my book, Fool's Errand, Timed and the War in Afghanistan at foolserrand.us.
