Sorry, I'm late.
I had to stop by the Whites Museum again and get the fingered at FDR We know Al-Qaeda, Zawahiri is supporting the opposition in Syria.
Are we supporting Al-Qaeda in Syria?
It's a proud day for America And by that we've kicked Vietnam syndrome once and for all.
Thank you very very much I say it, I say it again, you've been hacked You've been took.
You've been hoodwinked These witnesses are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else accepts as fact He came, he saw, he died.
We ain't killing they army, but we killing them We be on CNN like say our names, been saying, saying three times The meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world, then there's going to be an invasion All right, you guys, introducing Mason Tavert, he is from the Marijuana Policy Project Well, first of all, welcome to the show, how are you doing?
I'm doing great, thanks.
Thanks for having me.
Good deal, happy to have you here.
So it's funny I had read about you years ago, and I was telling my friend about it the other day like yeah There was once this guy who did this and that which we're going to talk about and then it occurred to me that huh I guess at the time I Forgot to remember that I have a radio show and I could have interviewed you back then But when I was telling the story, I thought oh I had to get this guy on the show.
So that's this And that is that you had I guess a few great ideas in a row to help agitate to get pot legalized in Colorado very effective ones And that make great anecdotes for retelling and that kind of thing So I was wondering if we could start off with you talking a little bit about that Sure, well, you know for several years in Colorado really starting in 2005, but we engaged in a very new type of public education campaign to build support toward legalization, which ultimately was successful in 2012 and that was through an organization called safer safer alternative for enjoyable recreation, which Really was based on the theory that if we would increase the percentage of the public that understood the fact that marijuana is safer than alcohol then we would see support for making it legal and treating it like alcohol grow and that's exactly what happened and With a limited budget we did that through a variety of publicity stunts and earned media efforts that really were geared toward Forcing people to think about the fact that marijuana is less harmful than alcohol All right.
So yeah first thing there's you chose to completely change the frame of the argument from whatever it was before Hippies like pot, so please legalize it or whatever kind of message was getting through to something else and then From that point on I mean, you're correct.
Obviously I agree with you, but it's almost beside the point You control the narrative and they're all reacting to you at that point, basically Yeah, I mean for the large part most efforts to end Marijuana prohibition or argue for broader legalization broader than medical We're based on the harms of prohibition and this notion that you know Prohibition is worse than marijuana.
You know marijuana may not be good But prohibition is worse and there's all these harms and you know conversations about generating tax revenue and saving law enforcement resources and taking marijuana out of the underground market and Those are all obviously very good arguments But if you're talking to a population that largely believes marijuana is just as dangerous as heroin Then talking about tax revenue or the benefits of it being sold in stores instead of the underground market is Hardly going to win people over they need to first understand What we're talking about which is a substance that is objectively less harmful than one that is legal and that most Americans consume All right.
So tell me what's a drug duel Well in you know back in 2006 We were trying to highlight this this fact of marijuana being less harmful than alcohol and at the time the mayor of Denver John Hickenlooper and now our governor here in Colorado was was opposed to a ballot measure we had to make marijuana legal and So we challenged him to a duel in which he would drink beer from the brew pub he owned at the time and I offered to use marijuana and we would see who could last longer to determine which substance was the more harmful and You know, obviously he did not show up But the message was clear that this was you know Clearly if he was to start drinking and someone were to start smoking some joints the person drinking would obviously not last as long and You know This was a good example of a media stunt where we had some Editorials that said it was juvenile and silly and so on But they also went on to say it made a valid point and that was the goal was to get that point across and then I read that you challenged at that time a Senate candidate from the Coors family and Then that raised the question I got to ask was did you particularly bust on him?
They're like you can drink Coors light And kind of make fun of him in that way and he still didn't show or how that work We actually we actually you know, yeah, it was it was Hickenlooper and we actually it was him and Pete Coors who?
Had previously run as a Republican for Senate in Colorado And really the reason was that we were trying to avoid the appearance of any sort of partisan You know, we're only picking on a Democrat.
And so the idea was well, you know This Democratic elected official owns a brewpub and this Republican political figure Own, you know is involved in the Coors Empire let's you know call on them to to do this and You know needless to say neither of them happen to be around and or in town of that day All right.
So obviously this is the big point that this made the breakthrough then through what local news coverage?and I know talk radio is a big deal in Denver and what have you but what so They just decided that yeah, they're right.
This guy's right.
Let's go ahead It's if it's not worse than alcohol than what are we doing and night and day took place.
What's the deal with that?
I mean, you know, I know there was more to your argument than that But that seems like that's really the big this was the key to it, huh?
Yeah, I think you know Fifty years from now when you look back.
That's how simple it will look Obviously, it was a much longer and more involved process, but essentially that's correct I mean we spent about seven years just hammering this message over and over through various publicity stunts ballot initiative campaigns standard, you know grassroots organizing and public advocacy, you know education We just constantly hammered on this message that marijuana is less harmful than alcohol and and conveying it in different ways and getting those facts out there over a period of time and during that period of time we Saw we saw people's opposition start to break down Those who were the most heavily opposed or at least who are somewhat opposed maybe started being less opposed or neutral and We started seeing support grow significantly and really it was just a matter of addressing The perception of harm so that when voters were asked should marijuana be legal rather than Worrying that this could Result in all sorts of mayhem.
They would say well it is less harmful than alcohol What could go what could what could go wrong?
And that's essentially what happened and we ended up breaking through and passing them in 64 in 2012 Mm-hmm.
Well, you're certainly right about the way certain segments and I guess large ones conceive of this issue and You know, I had a conversation with a guy it was about cocaine But it was basically the same difference where his attitude was Cocaine kills people it kills people and so therefore if you use cocaine You should go to prison for about 15 years if you have any at all And if you do it again, they should cut your head off You should just be taken out and shot and then that'll teach you and that'll finally get people to stop using it You know cuz it's dangerous.
So but anyway, but the idea being that this is just intolerable Right, and that's the the first premise is that this is to use cocaine itself is as bad as killing someone and so we there's no choice but to have this insane zero tolerance policy and then I guess people think that pot maybe is a little bit less worse than that, but Basically, they lump them together because they're the illegal ones and why would they be illegal if there wasn't a good reason for it?
You know and that's the kind of backwards thinking that people take We hear that all the time It's wrong because it's illegal and it's illegal because it's wrong the classic case of begging the question in the actual sense of that term That people use wrongly all the time Absolutely, you know, we would hear that that that type of argument or that circular logic frequently this notion that marijuana is bad because it's illegal and therefore cannot be made legal and You know, I think that over time people are just starting to recognize that this is silly and it's also, you know, the Second factor that I think played a major role in Colorado.
There was the you know Messaging of marijuana being less harmful than alcohol and that public education was was one key factor I think another one was the Establishment of a regulated system of medical marijuana Sales and production which really, you know Demonstrated that this was possible and realistic that you could have a system where where marijuana is regulated and there can be stores and it can be sold and it can be Subject to taxes and it's not going to immediately be shut down by the federal government once people Started to see that and you know, then it became more of a realistic concept that okay This doesn't have to be an illegal substance.
There is another option and I think that played a big part of it, too Well in one of the articles I read it said that part of your campaign was saying that this wastes police Resources and then I guess if you pick and choose among them You'll find plenty of cops who will tell you that they would rather be You know solving a crime or preventing one or something rather than this enforcing contraband rules Without a doubt, you know law enforcement officials have to decide what they're gonna spend their time on they do it every day They see someone drive past them going eight miles ten miles per hour over the speed limit And they don't necessarily pull them over because they don't think it's worth their time if they find a 25 year old with a gram of marijuana That should be viewed in a similar sit.
You know, why is that worth their time?
You know, they should be able to use their discretion to decide.
Hey, this isn't worth the time.
Let's focus on something else Fortunately now here in Colorado.
We have laws that make it illegal for an adult at age to possess marijuana But even in states where it's not legal You know, we do you often hear stories of police that confiscate beer from underage kids, but don't actually Issue citations that happens all the time And this was part of your argument in Colorado was to Police and pro-police forces in the government and in politics there.
Is that right?yeah, we made it it was more of the case that we made toward the end or leading up to the The legalization initiative election in 2012 because as I said, you know We first had to address people's perception of harm You know if you just say it's not worth police's time but all the people in town and all the elected officials think that Marijuana is this deadly dangerous substance then they will think it's worth the police's time You know, you first need to make sure people understand we're talking about something That's far less harmful than alcohol has never resulted in an overdose death that doesn't contribute to violent behavior or things of this nature So therefore it's not worth law enforcement's time.
They should prioritize other things and That is something that voters here came to agree with After being, you know educated about marijuana itself All right, you guys here's how to support the show first of all subscribe to the RSS feeds iTunes Stitcher and all of that.
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My email address is Scott at Scott Horton org Well, I like this quote it's from I guess one of your bosses at the marijuana policy project where he says Mason is actually willing to stand up to power, but to do it responsibly and respectably, but not necessarily Respectfully and I like that.
That's a good approach.
You don't want to you don't want to cede to them too much honor that they haven't necessarily earned but Respectably in you know on your own Behalf is you know, definitely that's a great way to go about it.
I could probably take a lesson in that but so Will you move to Texas, please?
You know, I've done work in Texas through MPP we've been working the past decriminalization measures medical marijuana measures I'm actually now working With an entity called the American hemp campaign on some hemp legislation In Texas or an effort to bring about hemp legislation but you know, it's it's something that really I think I have an idea for the campaign 3,000 deaths a year on Texas roads figure out, you know more or less the percentage of those that are drunk driving and Bring that out and you're talking about hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people dead Because they were hit by somebody who was drunk instead of high Which would have made the difference because you know Like Bill Hicks said if you get in a wreck your hive what you're still only going five miles an hour bump No problem You know, I think that the better figure would just be the point to the number of deaths associated with alcohol use alone I mean, we don't really, you know want to see people driving impaired by any substance whether it's alcohol whether If they were stoned, they would have stayed home well Because you know what that figure three thousand something that does represent alcohol, you know in a in some large measure And those are the most you know, there's sometimes a car wreck just comes out of nowhere There's just nothing you can do the guys brakes went out and and you know, whatever some kind of thing But sometimes it's really a careless mistake like drinking too much before driving and putting someone else in danger totally unreasonably, you know, I Don't disagree with you but I mean the fact remains that that you know people shouldn't be driving while they're impaired by anything and It's really just a matter of law enforcement focusing their time on people driving impaired rather than people sitting stoned Well, I hear you.
Anyway, I'm no good.
You do the gimmicks I'll just be right about everything but I mean But this is part of the story in Colorado, right?
Is that drunk driving accidents have gone way down since they legalized pot there, right?
I Mean, I guess maybe you could you could correlate that with uber and lyft to I don't know No, well, it's actually not accurate But we've also seen a significant increase in the population of the state over the last five years So yeah, you got to account for per capita, but so what happens when you do also seen an increase in Fatalities nationwide and a lot of it, you know, this stuff gets attributed to Is economic we've seen the economy rebound, which means that gas is more affordable cars are more affordable There's more miles being driven by more people So as a result, it's likely that there's going to be more accidents But you know, we're not seeing any evidence that there's been any sort of major increase in marijuana related deaths in fact the Colorado Department of Transportation just came out and and said that there appears to have been a Decrease this past year and the number of fatalities involving a driver impaired by marijuana Well, so what other effects has it had on Well, not just the pot markets, but you know society at large in Colorado since the legalization of recreational pot there Well, you know, I think there's been very clear economic benefits We've we've certainly seen you know Hundreds of businesses getting started thousands of people being employed by those businesses and they're all utilizing various services Of other local businesses and industries, you know, they all need You know construction they all need security.
They all need to be buying You know growing equipment and supplies and fertilizer and so on So, you know, it really is just another new industry that is generating a lot of economic activity But I think the most important thing that has occurred is that we're now seeing you know Billions of dollars in marijuana sales over the last several years that have taken place inside licensed businesses instead of in the underground market and that means That people are able to purchase these products safely and legally they know what they're getting the products are tested They're labeled they're packaged properly and they're not and there's taxes being paid on them and obviously the state has generated hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes that are being used for everything from Public school construction to addressing homelessness issues to building new municipal buildings or Repaving roads.
It really has gone a long way But overall what that sounds like the gray cloud in this silver lining there more more money for government But I understand that's a good selling point though Well, I mean the fact remains that that you know You you could have a much obviously broader conversation about the concept of government but There were schools that were not able to House children because they were falling apart and now there's no I I hear you all other things being equal Anyway, that's what we're talking about.
I couldn't drive on roads that they can now because they've been paved I mean, I think that those are pretty basic things that are benefits You know, so it but by and large if you live here over the last six years since this law has been Passed and got in effect You don't really notice much difference other than instead of seeing liquor stores Every now and again on the side of the road you see an occasional marijuana store But if you choose not to go in or what have you I mean life is no different Things are just as they have been for forever.
Yeah.
Well, you know, I read an article where The police in Colorado Springs were complaining that it's been a complete disaster for them But then when you read the article their complaint ultimately, although it's not the way they phrase it of course is that pot is still illegal in nearby states and so and it's still illegal to sell in Colorado without going through all the taxing and Licensing and all the things that you're talking about There's still you know, therefore the government has left a huge part of the market still open for black market production And so now that has actually increased because under the cover of growing pot legally there You know whole parts of the harvest are meant for the black market, too You know under their accusations of some dealers, whatever it is, whatever percent and so now Having you know only gone halfway in a sense They found that they still have a crisis on their hands and one that's much worse much harder to enforce against a higher volume of Illegal pot now being grown in the legal pot state Yeah, I don't really know if I buy the claim that there's more illegal growing taking place You know, obviously they are now focusing their time and attention on those types of things But you know, the fact is that there were you know a billion dollars in marijuana sales that took place in a licensed market and those sales all took place in the illegal market before and the idea that We've taken a billion dollars in marijuana sales out of the illegal market and there's more illegal activity than before I think is completely ludicrous you know, these are Law enforcement officials with virtually no data.
They like to use anecdotal evidence and Generally, there's no way to actually, you know prove that that's occurred because we are seeing far more marijuana Activity taking place in the legal market now instead of the illegal where I mean every You know every marijuana plant being grown Ten years ago eight ten years ago unless it was for one of the you know a few thousand medical marijuana patients in the state of the time was illegal and now We've got a billion dollars in marijuana sales that that are legal So the idea that we are still like there's billions of dollars and marijuana being grown and distributed illegally.
I just don't buy it Yeah, and by the way So what is this meant for the persecution of regular people and usually the the usual suspects the poorer and darker-skinned people at the hands of the cops over pot because so often of course it serves as a pretext for a further search and What else is in your pocket and blah blah.
I think I smelled something.
So has that really changed?
Well, yeah, I mean the most immediate effect is that there were approximately 7,000 or so adults being cited for simple marijuana possession each year and that number is now zero you know and then of course there were probably people as you alluded to people that were perhaps stopped or or you know, Because or searched because of a marijuana smell or related You know incident So, you know marijuana is now legal for adults 21 and older to possess so those arrests and and those citations have ended we've also seen a reported reduction in the number of marijuana related arrests for Larger offenses things like like cultivation and distribution.
Those have also dropped as well Significantly we are still seeing some disproportionate impact in law enforcement When it comes to things like public consumption, I mean the thing is is that you know marijuana laws were disproportionately enforced against communities of color Against lower-income communities.
That was not unique to marijuana.
It was not because of marijuana.
It was because of law enforcement practices and those law enforcement practices still exist and so Because it's still illegal to consume in public we do still see more people of color at least per capita You know being arrested Or excuse me issued a citation because law enforcement tends to Stop more people of color cite more people of color spend more time in communities where there are more people of color So, you know, it's really a symptom of the broader You know discrimination and and and societal issues then the problem itself It's it's a symptom of this and fortunately we've managed to address it when it comes to things like possession But it is still a factor when it comes to things like public consumption.
Yeah Hey, what about people who are on probation and parole?
Do they still get revoked over it?
Yeah, because marijuana is still illegal under federal law And I mean when it comes to things like parole and in some cases, I believe probation, you know That's something where someone can be prohibited from consuming alcohol So, you know, it's it's not still definitely included a hundred percent of the time just like before Yeah, you can't violate a federal law when you're on parole so, you know and again, I think that it certainly would be unfair if it's you know if it was Being treated differently than alcohol but if the laws that we have say that when you're on parole a Condition can be that you don't consume alcohol then certainly a condition could be that you you don't consume cannabis, but Yeah, these are those types of things, you know, those those things like employment issues public benefits Things like that are going to need to catch up and they are culturally But that's going to take some time because obviously marijuana has been illegal a long time and we've built all sorts of structures Societal structures around and legal structures around it being illegal and now we're starting to see that that change And now you know what?
I'm sorry.
I think I got us, you know off track when we were talking about Texas there for a minute I went back to Colorado, but In your efforts here in Texas, have you focused on the safer than alcohol angle because it sounds like that's the one that's worked The best for you so far You know MPP is not is not currently focused on Texas Texas is a state that the legislature only convenes every other year.
This is an off year MPP was involved there last year and its efforts were largely focused on a decriminalization measure and Medical and so they're less conducive to that safer arguments around alcohol, but it is Certainly something that was mentioned, you know we had a TV ad featuring a former law enforcement official that aired in Texas in several cities and It's you know in it He mentioned that you know, this is a substance less harmful than alcohol and not what you know He would he dealt with far more people who were drunk than people using marijuana during his time as a cop So we certainly did use that That's good.
Well, I hope somebody will take it up Because you know I can see and especially from all the coverage here, you know, people just Google to vert and drug duel You see what a great splash that made and I forget which article it was that I read, you know I reread a few here, but the one that I read before I couldn't really find but they really talked about how profound it was in terms of changing the entire Field the game was being played on basically changing the entire Context of the conversation and the debate and then you just want it that easily because I mean obviously you're right in the first place so that made it easier, but you took it off the terms that as you were saying hadn't been successful like Saying that the war on pot is worse than pot or whatever for whatever reason that never impressed anyone So find something else.
I guess you know what?
I want to ask you this What advice do you have to people in the anti-war movement?
To change maybe if you have any ideas to kind of change the context Which we debate the the endless terror war.
I Honestly, I haven't really Put that much thought into it on this level so I wouldn't you know, all right Well come up with something right now.
You're the brilliant genius.
Come on.
It's on you.
No You know, we're always you know, my firm's always for hire.
So give us a call.
There you go.
All right Well, anyway, it's a great example to follow there that you've set So I really appreciate your time on the show talking about that too.
And and congratulations on your great success Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it All right, you guys that is Mason to vert and he is at the marijuana policy project Which I guess is marijuana policy project org or MPP org.
You guys can find it All right y'all thanks find me at libertarian institute org at Scott Horton org Anti-war calm and reddit.com slash Scott Horton show Oh, yeah, and read my book fool's errand timed and the war in Afghanistan at fool's errand dot us
