Hey y'all, Scott here.
Here's how to support the show.
Patreon.com slash scott horton show if you want to donate per interview um, and also scotthorton.org slash donate Anyone who donates twenty dollars gets a copy of the audiobook of fool's errand Anyone who donates fifty dollars that'll get you a signed copy of the paperback In the mail there and anyone who donates a hundred dollars gets either a qr code commodity disc Or a lifetime subscription now only for one hundred dollars not to a lifetime subscription to listen and think audiobooks Libertarian audiobooks listen and think.com there.
So check out all that stuff.
And of course, we take all your different digital currencies, especially zen cash And all the different kinds of bitcoins and whatevers, uh are all there at scotthorton.org slash donate and um Get the book fool's errand And give it a good review on amazon if you read it and you liked it and review the show on You know itunes and stitcher and that kind of thing if you want.
All right.
Thanks Sorry, i'm late.
I had to stop by the wax museum again and give the finger to fdr We know al-qaeda zawahiri is supporting the opposition in syria, are we supporting al-qaeda in syria It's a proud day for america And by god, we've kicked vietnam syndrome once and for all thank you very very much These witnesses Are trying to simply deny things that just about everybody else accepts as fact He came he saw And died but we ain't killing their army but we killing them We be on seeing it like say our name been saying say it three times The meeting of the largest armies in the history of the world then there's going to be an invasion All right, you guys introducing nadine dehan She wrote this.
Uh, well, first of all, she's a journalist, uh based in britain and she's written this important article Uh for middle east eye haftar forces launch fresh attack on besieged libyan city Of derna, welcome to the show.
How are you doing?
Hi, i'm good.
Thank you.
How are you?
I'm doing real good I really appreciate you joining us on the show today and my pleasure and especially because i'm so far behind in covering events in libya right now and So I really appreciate you helping me out in that way to catch up here And so this is about the war in the eastern half of the country and so um, and and this guy khalifa haftar now, he's a guy who You know, I think mcclatchy newspapers made it pretty clear that he was a cia asset was living just outside of langley Virginia for 30 years or something waiting for his day or 25 years or no, I think 30 Waiting for his day to come back Um, and they parachuted him in there But I don't know if he still works for the americans or not I guess they've tried to say that he doesn't work for the americans and I guess I think The u.s.
Is behind this U.s.
U.n.
Backed government of national unity that they're trying to create So, I don't know if he's really in defiance of their wishes at this point or what or if you can help us with that but anyway um, yeah, well, I mean he's So first of all, we have the the u.n.
Backed.
Um government, which is Supposed to be sort of a unity government that that brought together sort of all um Factions in the country that were vying for control Um to bring them together and have one unified government, but that didn't quite um work and so what we have now is um The government of national accord which is the u.n.
Backed government in the capital in the west tripoli um, but also in the east of the country we have the house of representatives um, which backs haftar um, and which is sort of Like almost the other side, uh of the coin and and they're not they're not working together They haven't come together.
And so what we have now is sort of two or three separate governments um In the country and no no security um And and and yeah, so haftar's in control of the majority of the east and derna is the last stronghold of opposition there so this really puts the u.s.
And france at opposite purposes here or they're trying to Figure out a way to merge the the national unity uh, or the government of national accord and the then uh, The haftar factions together at some point Yeah, I mean the international community has generally um supported the government of national accord and supported unity um And supported a unity unity government the so-called unity government, but but in fact like as you mentioned correctly we have Countries like france countries like russia egypt the uae um that are backing uh after that are saying that sort of no solution in libya can Be achieved without after being in the picture um, which in itself I suppose is is Problematic because haftar has not only been accused of war crimes by human rights groups and has sort of been at the forefront of Lots of suffering of civilians lots of destruction in the east of the country um, but he but but he isn't actually interested in uh backing this unity government i'm not saying in any way shape or form that this the unity government is Actually faultless because it isn't but at the same time Um, I think the international community is a little bit confused.
Um doesn't really know what it's doing um And yes, and and the people suffering are the civilians on the ground Well, it doesn't sound like this.
Uh government of national unity has much unity behind it at all, right?
This is the At one point I mean, I remember when they announced it the entire thing existed on a ship offshore because they couldn't even come to Tripoli.
Yeah, exactly um, but then so and i'm, sorry because I really want to talk about durna too, but um, yeah, just how vast is the political divide between Tripoli and benghazi here is there is will there ever be a libya again?
Or we're just going to have the country split into three official states Yeah, yeah the this this famous, uh three-way split, uh map that was once drawn out on a napkin.
Um, I mean I think the idea is Uh, and actually from for the majority of libyans.
They do want a united libya.
Um, and it's actually quite interesting um to think about that in sort of the context of what is happening in durna at the moment because Durna is the only place in the east that hafta doesn't have control over yet.
Uh, should he have control?um should he take over control then The whole of the east could essentially become His territory But I mean it remains I would say it remains quite unclear as to what's going to happen next but I wouldn't rush to come to the conclusion that That the country will be split I think I think libyans do want um a united libya and um I think it's going to take a lot more to convince people that that splitting the country is in any way, um a solution uh Yeah, well, but the status quo right is that you got Basically two governments and one trying to be a government never mind the south for a minute But just in terms of east and west and the us un Uh government here and nobody wants to give up enough power and share it with each other enough to have a unified Uh government over the country, right?
Yeah, but I mean, I mean that's very true but I mean what we have to remember about libya, which is a little bit different to a lot of other places is that Everyone is armed.
Um I mean every sort of area in the country has uh militias has um You know armed groups running municipalities armed groups running we even have you know militias running the airport in tripoli we have and and it's not as simple as sort of someone decides and um and all else falls into place because you do have a population that is Almost you know 90 percent of which is is armed and it's not as simple uh as as people are sort of trying to paint it and I'd like to just go back a second to the government of national accord um, you have a government that doesn't that's not able to um sort of even do the simplest of things such as Control its its own airport.
So we have in tripoli the only civilian airport left um is is actually being run by uh militias a militia that that has a prison on site that has um again been accused by the un itself of uh Treating prisoners that are being held in that prison.
Um Unfairly and and so you you know, you have you have a government that is that is a government without control Um, and and that has to sort of appease militias, uh and armed armed groups because they can't they don't have the firepower essentially to counter um to counter what the militias militias do have So it's it's very complicated and I don't think It's as quite as simple as sort of, you know, the international community decides and libya sort of Becomes whatever they want it to be purely purely because um of how much firepower everyone has and that's again That's sort of part of the problem.
What that that the gna faced when they had to be situated on this Um boat because they couldn't ensure the security uh of the government due to all of the arms and and things everywhere, so It's quite a muddled picture.
Okay.
So now let's talk about this great article here Um again, it's middle east I haftar forces launch fresh attack on besieged libyan city of durna and this is a town on the coast in The east of the country and you're I think you say in here.
It's a town of 150 000 people Something like that.
Yes, and it's the last place in the east that is not under the control of haftar's forces you said Yeah, yeah, and so tell us about the fighting going on in the city now Well, I mean, you know those those residents of of durna are not uh, you know This this type of attack is actually not something new to them um I think it's important with durna to start sort of at the from the beginning because there's a lot of um discourse around Um durna and why it's important that haftar and his so-called libyan national army take it over again But it's I think I think it's important to start from from the very beginning durna had a massive problem um with the so-called islamic state group so durna had um Had had islamic state fighters Uh in the city they had they suffered a lot um of destruction and and sort of you know death and and all the rest of it that comes with um with that and and durna came together, um fighters within durna soldiers within durna came together and freed the city, uh from islamic state and actually when those uh When islamic state fighters then left durna um And it was the same sort of fighters that then eventually made their way to sirte uh further west of the country and and so what happened then was once they freed durna from the sort of stronghold of is they set up um, they set up, uh, these this like defense force which was made up of the the the forces that were involved in um fighting is at the time and um haftar Who is the leader of the libyan so-called libyan national army?um Then decided that you know Now we have to go into durna and free durna from from terrorism and actually it's quite common and we see it quite a lot that haftar labels any of his um Opposition as as terrorists.
It's quite an interesting securitization tactic Um that he's he's used quite well, I would say to get Uh both international community and local community on his side And you're saying these are the people who defeated the islamic state and drove them out Yes, absolutely.
Yeah.
Um, I mean you have the durna shura council, which was um, which was you know, it's it's disbanded now and it's uh, it's under sort of the durna defense forces um Now but yeah, they were actual locals who were fighting against Uh islamic state they weren't you know, it was not the libyan national army that had any involvement in that It was not any so they didn't have any outside help and actually even now residents in the city say Um, you know our own sons sort of thing were responsible for getting rid Um of these terrorists from our city and now and now After we've gotten rid of them hafters saying Oh, let me come and and rid you all of of of terrorism when where was he when the real terrorist threat was here um, so it's quite it's quite interesting that um, that the way the word is used and sort of thrown around and actually uh Hafters using it now against those the people who were involved in in fighting is Uh, and so so there's been sort of this ongoing um fight ever since derna freed uh Itself from from the grasps of is in 2015 Hey, let me tell you about the sponsors of this show First of all, mike swanson.
He is the author of the great book the war state about the permanence of america's world war ii military empire Through the truman eisenhower and kennedy Administrations the rise of the new right military industrial complex Uh after world war ii the war state by mike swanson and also get his great investment advice to protect your financial future there at Wallstreetwindow.com.
He has a great understanding of what the hell is going on in these financial markets wallstreetwindow.com Unless I know he'll tell you you got to have at least some of your savings.
You must know Uh some of your savings however much it is you got to have metals.
And so what you do is you go to Roberts and roberts brokerage inc gold silver platinum palladium.
Uh, they have a very small Uh brokerage fee in order to process for you and and get you the very best deal and if you buy with bitcoin There's no premium at all For your purchases of gold silver platinum palladium.
So check those guys out roberts and roberts brokerage inc At r rbi.co you ever play baseball r rbi dot co And as I mentioned zen cash is a great new digital currency.
It's also an encrypted method of Internet messaging and document transfer and all kinds of things for your business for your secret conspiracies Zen cash Dot com check that out at zen system dot io you can read all about how it works Every last detail, of course At zen system dot io and then there's this book about how to run your technology business like a libertarian It's called no dev no ops.
No it and each of those is one word three words, you know, get it Yeah, no dev no ops.
No it it's by hussein badak chani and it's about how to run Your business right in a libertarian way liberty stickers.com I guess rick didn't like the great new website.
So we'll have to wait Someday, we'll get a new website There's still a lot of good stickers on there, but we've got a lot of good art.
That's not up there yet I don't know man I don't know man liberty stickers.com.
That's the new slogan.
I don't know um, and tom was liberty classroom if uh, you like learning things i'll get a commission if you sign up by way of the link on my website And listen if you want a new and the reason my website is down is my own broken servers Uh, but if you want a new good looking website, like the one I do have when it's up and running at scotthorton.org uh, then check out expanddesigns.com Scott expanddesigns.com scott and you will save 500 bucks on your new website All right, and so Well, and I asked you about the fighting so you could talk about that and then is there any basis for a resolution here?
Where haftar could stop short of overthrowing this new self-appointed or whatever appointed?
Uh, uh city council here and and compromise and stop the fighting short of victory yeah, I mean, I mean i've you know speaking to analysts and sort of residents and um people from inside there and people from inside libya and other parts as well, it's it's Okay, you know and obviously haftar has just come back from being hospitalized in france um, there was you know rumors of his ill health stopping him from being able to be An effective leader of the lna and in fact, there were even rumors of his death and then he comes back and sort of one of the first things he does is Turns his attention back uh to that and I and I think it is, uh to an extent in order to sort of Show that.
Yes.
I'm, you know back and i'm in full swing and I have control um, but actually I think derna not being under his control does pose a threat to this this idea that we would we were talking about earlier that um the splitting of libya into you know, three separate Entities and It does pose a threat because if you have a pocket within your territories that is actually not controlled by you that is not um on your you know on your side Or at least is not effectively being silenced then then it does pose a threat and I think that coupled with this need to reassert himself as um this, you know, very strong military Uh figure is what has has sort of driven this new found attention um on derna, but but actually I what I would say is as well is that Uh, just going back to the residents are not Um, this is not it's not new to them and and they're actually not changing their minds at all Uh from what I can see, obviously there there are some people who support um Who support the libyan national army and say yes, you know We we do support haftar, but they're a minority and also even even if uh They support haftar.
I don't think um any of them, you know are happy with the way that haftar has been Sort of barging in and killing whoever and whatever comes in his way We we saw just this week in the recent the most recent attack um, six civilians killed at least You know over 14 injured um 27 killed in total at least one child injured and and the images and and things that you know We've seen coming out of derna are actually too horrific to even To even share in my opinion the really horrible sort of scenes of destruction And not to forget that this is a city that has been under siege uh by the lna uh for nearly two years now, so Not they don't not only are they being bombarded sort of by um airstrikes and land attacks but they're also struggling to to feed themselves to feed their children and You know, the hospitals are struggling with supplies.
There's not enough oxygen um, you know, we've heard of cases of children that have Like that stillbirths and things like that because there wasn't enough.
Um Medication that uh in the hospitals and there wasn't enough supplies and things like that So so it's quite quite a bleak sort of situation that they're in um even if even if there weren't, uh, these airstrikes and to add insult to injury almost, um, you have The majority of these people are actually fasting at the moment because it's the month of ramadan Which is the month where muslims abstain from eating and drinking from sunset Yes, sorry, uh from dawn to sunset and and so, you know the whole situation is um, it's quite worrying to see that that even That even now in this month, um Things are continuing And and the assault is has been ongoing ever since earlier this week And you set human rights watch, uh saying that civilian casualties are high is there a specific estimate there Um, so in the most recent attack, it's it's six at least six civilians killed um But I mean again last year we had uh It wasn't even the lna that was attacking.
Uh, darna.
It was egyptian Uh planes were attacking darna um The lna has, you know launched sporadic random, uh Airstrikes on the city here and there.
Um, they've tightened their siege since uh last year Since november last year they they you know tighten the siege They aid workers can't get in aid that's being delivered is often being sent back.
Um Once it reaches once it breaches their checkpoints So, I mean the numbers are just going to continue to rise um unless Something changes.
I mean if if the siege continues and the attacks continue then people are either going to everyone people are either going to die from from the from the air attacks or you know from from the war or they're going to die from a Malnutrition or a lack of medical supplies and and that's the reality I suppose on the on the ground at the moment Mm-hmm.
All right And now it does go without saying of course Except that the new york times had a piece about benghazi recently where they talked about there are a lot of problems in benghazi where they didn't even mention the fact that america and its allies had launched a war there in 2011 and you and I hadn't brought that up because of course it does go without saying and everybody already knows that but Then again, we better make sure I don't want to make it sound like oh, yeah They've got some problems in libya and not point out america's responsibility for the yeah, well, well, I mean, I mean it's Again, it's it's a very complicated situation and I think this is part of the reason that libya stays out of you know Discussions a lot is because it's actually very difficult to understand what's going on And there are so many factors.
There are so many factions there There's so much happening there that um, it's very it's very difficult to to get like a full picture and it's very easy to To hear sort of over generalizations and things like that, but yes in 2011, um the us and you know nato were involved in uh in in libya um You know and to be to be perfectly honest actually Had had they not?um Had they not been involved we would see a very different picture and we'd probably be seeing um Even greater numbers of of libyans killed by by gaddafi in 2011.
But I again, I think Yeah, definitely definitely I mean, you know when they attacked benghazi, um specifically Gaddafi had a huge convoy, um on its way To with the intention to flatten the place, you know, so and that convoy didn't reach Because of well, but he hadn't flattened any of the other towns that he hadn't flattened any of the other towns that he'd taken back from the rebel forces Why was he gonna flatten all of benghazi?
I think I think that's I think that's debatable.
I mean gaddafi did Uh, there was a lot of destruction Uh a lot of a lot of innocent civilians killed captured torches and all the rest of it But but again, I mean there's well, I mean things to say I'm not saying there wasn't a lot of collateral damage and that kind of thing, but he wasn't going in and Inflicting massive punishment on the civilian populations of all the towns where the rebels had been fighting They were defeating the rebels in brutal ways.
Don't get me wrong But then and civilians not just not just people who were fighting him, but but again, I think what's what's important now is regardless of what I mean I'm sorry to interrupt you but have the the accusation at the time was that he was going to kill everyone in benghazi And that's sort of the way you put it there flatten the place I think makes it sound like he was going to kill everybody just for being in benghazi and that doesn't really make sense Does it I mean that's well, I mean, that's what he that's what he said That's what his intention was by sending all of this.
Um That that convoy he said when i'm done with it, essentially there won't be any benghazi left Um, but but it's just I think libyans are tired of sort of being A punching bag whether it's from the international intervention whether it's from within, you know the country itself from whether whether it's from sort of um Wherever it's come from libyans have had it very bad from all directions since 2011.
I mean it's coming Coming up to you know, it's it's seven years on um and it's And things i'm not sure if people in the country are even seeing any improvements at all um, and you have places like terna that have been You know children are starving uh, and and mothers are not being able to to, you know, look after their health when they're carrying children or after They give birth and and things like that because Uh of a siege that is being enforced on on this city by someone that that You know that says he's he's going to take full control of the east of the country.
He fully intends to take part in um Elections that are supposed to be happening this Year, and I mean again, we have talk of elections and and on the one hand and on the other hand we have um Civilians being choked essentially in their own in their own city and it's a very It's a very interesting picture um to paint when you have the government of national accord that was sort of thrown into the country with um, without any libyans involved in in the choosing um Of this government, you know, it was just thrown into the country as you said earlier.
Um Came in by sea Just here you go.
Here's your government uh, and on the other on the other side of the country we have um this almost cc wannabe who is You know doing all of this stuff in darna and and other places and as you say with international support from from the french america's allies And especially but also egypt and uae and of course and russia and oh and russia too that's interesting the cia's former guy uh backed by putin now and so um, but now I wonder who uh, and of course, I mean, I think it goes without saying but this too But we should mention that basically any international intervention is only going to make matters worse and distort power factions amounts of power on the ground In ways that perpetuate conflict rather than solving it obviously, but I wonder about who backs the government in tripoli Which countries are on their side?
Well, well, I mean, you know technically it's uh, it is the only internationally recognized government in the country technically um, which means that sort of all Relations and and like state issues and stuff that they are the recognized government, but actually Hafter doesn't have that has shown and proven that he doesn't need to be part of the government Um for him to carry on with with what he's doing um And and and unless you know, unless he's sort of stopped uh, he will just Carry on with what he's doing.
He knows Um what he wants to achieve he wants he wants more power.
He wants more control and he's willing to um to sacrifice uh civilians to sacrifice um His image I guess as well to some extent Uh in order to achieve that and now is um Is bel hodge still a leading member of the government in tripoli?uh No, uh, I mean he's he's not he's not part of the government of national accord but he's I mean, he's a he's got a part of you know politics uh, but It's just interesting story because he was at one point kidnapped and renditioned and tortured by the americans And is he was and by the brits and and then there's suing in british court They have something like a rule of law in britain much more than in the u.s.
He actually just recently received the an apology didn't he?from um from the british government But he was just recently I think last last week.
He just received An apology so an acknowledgement of how he was treated and their responsibility But he was actually associated with al qaeda in in afghanistan back when and that kind of thing So they had something on him.
It's just they completely abused his human rights.
Anyway, you know um, but Um, so I guess i'm sorry.
I know you told me you had to go and now we're we're over time I wanted to ask you about the south, but you're late.
So listen, thank you very much coming back Uh, not back coming on the show.
Thank you very much.
Nadine.
Appreciate that That's all right.
Thank you.
My pleasure All right, you guys that's nadine Dahan, and she is writing here at middle east.
I the article is haftar forces launch fresh attack on besieged libyan city of derna All right, so you guys know the deal, uh fools erin.us for the book scott.
Horton.org and youtube.com Scott horton show for all the interviews 4500 of them now going back to 2003 for you there Read what I want you to read at Anti-war.com and at libertarian institute.org and follow me on twitter at scott horton show.
Thanks
