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Alright, introducing Ryan Riley from the Huffington Post.
Welcome to the show, how are you doing?
Good, thanks for having me.
I appreciate you joining us today.
And yeah, when I saw it retweeted I thought, oh wow, look at this.
And I didn't realize it was old, but it's not that old.
And I didn't notice that it happened at the time.
And I didn't get a chance to interview you about it then.
So I don't care, I'm going to interview you about it anyway.
From July, Sandra Bland died a year ago.
And since then, at least 810 people have lost their lives in jail.
Not prison, that's jail.
It's by you and Dana Libelson from July 13th of this year.
So thanks for coming on.
And I'm sorry, what were you going to say there?
Sure, yeah, no problem.
Yeah, I mean, this is something that's been going on that we're still continuing to cover.
Oh, good.
To this day, I think.
You know, it's something that really hasn't been tracked before.
So we basically set out to capture the number of jail deaths that occurred over the course of the year, starting at the day that Sandra Bland died.
Okay, yeah, good deal too.
And you know, I was talking with a guy from Shadowproof the other day who's been covering the prison strike.
And this was something that he brought up.
I'm sure he was referencing your work, actually, now that I think about it, about how many people die in jail.
And that's just, you know, waiting to be arraigned and bailed out if they get bail, that kind of thing.
So this is, you know, never mind being convicted of something shouldn't necessarily be a death sentence.
You know, life in prison should still mean you die of old age in your late 70s or 80s or something, right?
Not die tomorrow before you even get arraigned.
So now there's so many people in jail, and there's so many different jurisdictions and all these things.
I guess maybe I don't really know for sure, Ryan, first of all, here that 800 is a high number.
Can you somehow like show me perspective on, you know, how many people are in and out?
And these people are all just they would have had a heart attack that day anyway, or what exactly how far out of whack that number really is?
Yeah, well, I think, you know, the way that we should think about it, it's not even really a great comparison to necessarily compare it to just, you know, the general population at large or something, because you have a population that's coming in with a very, you know, specific sort of, basically, you know, a specific sort of issues.
You know, many of them are coming in, and they have, you know, they have problems with drugs or alcohol.
But really, you know, but really jail, if we had sort of put proper standards in place, could be one of the safest places in the world to be.
It has sort of top-notch medical care and that sort of thing.
But often that's just, I mean, not the case.
And there's a big phenomenon that we've sort of been picking up on with basically officials insisting that inmates are lying about their medical needs, or, you know, just sort of faking it and want to get out in some way or, you know, trying to scam them in some way.
And, I mean, that can have really deadly outcomes in a lot of cases.
We published a video a couple of weeks ago that we obtained exclusively that showed basically that someone who was having heart issues, because he was saying, I can't breathe, I can't breathe, I can't breathe, about 19 times in this video that they recorded inside the jail, and his needs were just completely ignored.
And they dumped him in a jail cell that evening, and he ended up, you know, they found him dead the next day.
And, you know, so there's a lot of different motivations that go into that.
In that case, it was a for-profit prison where, you know, they only get so much money per inmate, and there's not a lot of reason for them to really want to spend a lot of money on the medical needs of the people who are in their care at this point.
So, you know, it's sort of an extraordinary issue that I think has, you know, really been sort of undocumented.
Because we do, while we do have some numbers from the federal government, we really don't tell the complete picture.
Because, you know, for example, that guy will probably go down as, you know, oh, someone who had a heart issue in jail.
And what's not said is that, you know, oh, his pleas for help after he was pepper sprayed and thrown to the ground were ignored by the personnel there.
And his life, you know, could have been spared had they sort of done their jobs properly.
And, you know, and the one thing that we focused on back in July was also just in terms of suicides.
And, you know, jail suicide should almost be entirely preventable if you have proper procedures, if you have proper screening procedures, if you have proper protocols in place to make sure that people don't have access to the sorts of things that they would be able to use to commit suicide.
But that's just really not the case in a lot of facilities today.
It's not, you know, being a jail guard in a lot of places is not a particularly well paying job.
It's not something people necessarily see as a long term career option.
It's often just a stepping stone for people very early on in their law enforcement career.
So what you end up having is a lot of, you know, underpaid people who are very inexperienced dealing with some of the people in, you know, one of the most fragile times in their lives, which is right after, you know, an arrest.
Right.
Okay.
Yeah.
So a lot to go back over there already.
First of all, as far as the new cops.
Yeah, that's right.
I actually knew a guy when I was a cab driver who was a fellow cab driver of mine who became a cop for a little while.
And he quit before he even finished his tour inside the local jail.
That was you have to do two years inside the Travis County jail before they let you go out there and be the deputy on patrol.
And for him, he was one of these guys, even though he's a right winger, he was like a real George Washington Bill of Rights kind of guy, really meant his oath when he was in the military and all that.
So he wanted to be a good cop out there really protecting people's rights.
Even those bad criminals, he was going to protect their rights because that's the deal and all this stuff.
And he gave up after like 10 months and said, oh, my God, I can't.
And what he described was basically, well, like you said, the presumption of malingering or maybe like the better way to put it is the presumption that anyone in there, even though it's just the local jail, the presumption that anyone in there is a guilty murderer, drug dealer, scumbag, pimp, whoever who's not even deserving the slightest bit of respect or benefit of the doubt.
If they say they can't breathe, it's presumed that they're all the lowest criminal who's obviously, you know, must be presumed in the first place to be dishonest when really and especially now when everybody commits three felonies a day just for getting out of bed in the morning.
There's even a book like that, of course, you know, some major percent, do you know of these people which even categorizes like not even really belong in jail at all?
And then they're get thrown in there with somebody who maybe actually did just stab somebody to death, you know?
Right.
I mean, yeah, that's the big thing.
But I mean, that's sort of the reason that we chose to focus on jails, because I mean, what you're dealing with there is a population that hasn't been convicted of a crime that's supposed to be presumed innocent of any crime that they've been accused of.
And that's I mean, that's I mean, that's not how jails are.
And maybe even if they were convicted, it wouldn't even necessarily be a prison offense, right?
They could be in there for almost nothing and get deferred probation or something.
For sure.
Yeah.
I mean, I thought the one woman that I talked to in the story was in for, you know, some basically some minor traffic stuff that you couldn't afford, you know, the fines on and sort of got out of hand and away from her.
So, yeah, I mean, this is very low level stuff.
In fact, another case that we've covered pretty extensively now was an individual who was smoking pot in his own home and or allegedly smoking pot in his own home and ended up getting a ticket and then had a stroke, but couldn't get to the court for his, you know, his court date in connection with that original citation.
And so there was a warrant out for his arrest.
And then when he got evicted from his apartment due to his sickness, essentially, because he couldn't pay his bills, he ended up getting picked up on that warrant and, you know, didn't have any money to his name.
So he couldn't afford a hundred bucks to get out of jail and ended up dying behind bars, you know, a month later without having ever been convicted of even a low level crime of which he was accused.
So, I mean, you know, it's sort of an extraordinary situation we've gotten ourselves into where we're holding these people behind bars.
And, you know, often it has these tragic sort of outcomes because we're holding them in a dangerous environment where they're often being watched by people who, you know, aren't necessarily fully invested in their best interest and, you know, may not particularly care too much about their needs.
Yeah.
Well, and you know what?
To be perfectly honest, for the most part, we're talking about a bunch of meathead, idiot, particular individuals who are cops who don't know anything and don't care about anything either, except eating steroids all day and being a jerk.
And that's why they became a cop in the first place.
So that's the thing is we hired all the worst people in our county to be our security force.
And now we're wondering why we have such a problem with them all the time.
Sure.
I mean, you know, I would say that I don't think that I think that you would find that within the law enforcement community, there's not a ton of respect for people who really serve as jail guards, essentially.
There's a question of, you know, if you've been a jail guard for a certain number of years, what do you do?
You know, why aren't you at a higher position at that point?
I mean, that's really the I mean, that's not the case.
You know, there may be places in the country where jail guards are paid well and perform their their jobs well, but there are a lot of places that's just not the way it works out the hierarchy.
It's like the lowest rung of the ladder.
And, you know, you end up with, you know, very young, very inexperienced or people who, you know, or perhaps people who, you know, couldn't get a job, you know, sort of higher up, you know, in on the ranking in these positions where, you know, like I said, it's a very sort of dangerous time for people in their lives when they're when they're behind bars there, which is, I mean, you know, I mean, we've gotten so far away from in the country, the idea that, you know, jail isn't supposed to be punitive, which is, I think, something that sort of shocks people when you say it, but it's true.
Pretrial detention is not supposed to be punitive.
It's not supposed to be something that is any kind of punishment because you're not being you're not being found guilty.
It's in theory, you know, in the best practices, it's supposed to only hold people who are truly a ongoing public safety threat to the community.
It's not supposed to hold people who just, you know, who have a charge that they can't afford bail.
But that's sort of where we are in a lot of places in this country today.
Well, and here's where we are, too, where nobody's ever even heard of that before.
The idea that, you know, we're supposedly this is the reason we even let there be a government is the theory that when somebody commits a felony, the local community would just go ahead and lynch them.
But so we're going to be civilized.
And instead of doing that, we're going to have a sheriff whose job it is to protect the guy's rights until he gets his fair trial and a sentence that is based on justice, not vengeance and all this.
I'm not saying I buy it, but that's the state's bottom line.
PR case is that the job of the sheriff is to protect the rights of the accused from the mob getting at him.
That's why he's locked up in the cell to keep us out.
And, you know, but anyway, never mind any of that.
I mean, we the government created the people so they can vote for us and ratify our power every once in a while.
That's the first line of the Constitution.
We all learned it well now.
So now let's go back to Sandra Bland here.
As you mentioned, the article starts with her.
And that's what got y'all interested in wanting to pursue this specifically.
And I got to plead ignorance on this.
Am I right that the maybe nobody really knows for certain.
But the best explanation is that she died of a lack of her prescription medicine that she should have had access to.
Is that what it was or what happened?
Or did she kill herself?
Or do you know, I don't know.
We don't know for certain.
I think I think that the the the high likelihood is that she that she killed herself.
And I think that the, you know, the demonstrated the evidence that has sort of emerged sort of indicates that is the case.
But I think that, you know, that shouldn't necessarily take responsibility out of the hands of the police, the police department, certainly not in law enforcement authorities here, which is really something that we tried to get across in the story.
And especially in her case, where are preventable?
Yeah, that was one where it was cut and dry that she was clearly the victim of a crime perpetrated by the cop full stop.
And that was it.
He kidnapped her is all he did.
So if somebody kidnaps somebody and holds them in their basement and they kill themselves after three days, you don't say, oh, well, it was just a suicide, not the kidnappers fault.
Sure.
And I mean, like, you know, I think I would I would just say, you know, yes, I think that, you know, this individual has the officer in that case has, you know, I think obviously engaged in some wrongdoing there and is no longer with the force.
And, you know, also, Cinderblatt had, you know, this wasn't solely the act.
You know, this wasn't as if this was solely happened because of what happened that day.
Right.
She had a history with with basically, you know, feeling, I guess, sort of abused by the law enforcement system, had been picked up several times before, had done, you know, jail, in fact, on a very minor charges on, you know, sort of traffic and marijuana charges previously in jail.
So this was an experience that that she sort of had.
And, you know, but I think that, you know, not that, you know, obviously taking your license, obviously, you know, never the answer.
And as you know, you shouldn't be sort of justified.
But I think when you talk when you talk about the conditions within jail, it's something that I think you can you should be able to sort of kind of come to understand when you talk about what sort of a shocking, you know, shocking experience it sort of is to be stripped of basically, you know, all of your human dignity and be subjected to sort of the whims of the authorities that have you in their custody.
I think that, I mean, that you can't sort of overstate what impact that can have on someone's life.
And, you know, I think that that really has to be taken into account for in this in this scenario, because you have people who are, you know, perhaps in a vulnerable state in their lives already, and we subject them to pretty harsh conditions without really, you know, even determining whether or not they're guilty of the crime for which they're accused.
So, you know, I think her her family in the lawsuit is sort of hinted at the idea that, you know, this was suicide.
I think her family is also, you know, that's that's a tough thing for them to sort of wrap their heads around or admit.
But I think that they're, you know, their claims in the in the lawsuit sort of hinted that and suggest that, you know, there weren't proper protocols in place to prevent someone like her from from committing suicide.
Right.
Well, now, I wonder, in all these statistics, were you able to break it down by which people were in there for crimes that if they were convicted would result in a prison sentence or even a possible death sentence for a capital crime versus people who are dying in jail, who, even if they were convicted, would not be facing time in prison?
Because that seems to me like a real great way to put it, like here, the following, like if it's if the total is 800 and it's whatever number 100 of them are people who are in there for crimes that are merely offenses and not really crimes at all, then then we got a real problem that maybe could catch the attention of people who would tend to just write this off as all a bunch of violent felons who they just don't care about, you know?
Yeah, you know, I think that's a good point, but it's sort of very difficult to do an analysis of the data.
Yeah, my job is just asking the question.
You got to do all the work.
Right, because essentially, because you've had you've had you can't first of all, you can't say for sure how someone would be sentenced.
You can, you know, maybe say whether it's what it's likely they do, but there's obviously a bunch of different factors that come into that, including, you know, criminal history and that sort of thing.
But yeah, that's a really tough analysis to do.
I think that, you know, one thing that we're trying to do as we sort of complete this data set of a year's worth of data is basically look at where identify some of the places that might be more dangerous jails in the country where there's just, you know, a lot of people have died and they have a very low population.
And, you know, that's that's something that that analysis really, I think, is really important that analysis really, unfortunately, hasn't been done before, which is sort of surprising in a lot of ways.
You know, it's just not something that we have really seen.
So that's something that hopefully, you know, that that'll be a forthcoming story that we'll have coming out is sort of, you know, looking at some of those most dangerous facilities out there and, you know, sort of trying to figure out what the hell is going on in a lot of ways in some of these places where just a lot of people are dying and it's not clear if their sort of protocols are up to date or if they have the best conditions for people.
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Hey, double check Travis County, Texas, man, because, you know, they have a reputation as being not as bad of criminals as the Williamson County Sheriff's Department.
But what's another cab driver story?
Actually, a cab driver that I, you know, had met before.
Anyway, I kind of knew him.
He murdered a couple of guys.
Pretty sure he was guilty of picking the fight and murdering these two guys in his cab.
But he died in jail and they ran this whole giant thing in the newspaper just to convict him after the fact, basically not even really telling his side of it at all.
But then they just kind of mentioned at the end of the article a couple of important facts.
One, this gigantic barrel chested guy had lost something like 100 pounds or 90 pounds or whatever.
It's been a long time, but he had lost tens and tens and tens of pounds while he was in jail.
This guy before he died.
But they didn't explain why.
And then they also said, oh, yeah, by the way, however many tens or maybe even more than that people have died in the Travis County jail in the last year.
And I remember being completely shocked.
And I'm a very cynical guy about these things.
But it was so many people were dying in the Travis County jail that it really made me wonder like whether there was something sort of like you're saying.
You have these certain jails where something is really wrong in the way it's being managed that you have much higher percentages in their cases.
I'd be willing to bet, you know, Travis County is one of those, at least in the past.
Yeah, I mean, you know, there are a lot of places across the country that have these problems.
Hey, tell me this.
How much competition do you have from the other newspapers on this issue?
Because that's something that I don't think ever gets covered at all.
Right.
You hear him laugh.
Everybody's like, give me a break.
Nobody ever even cares about this, even though here it is.
It's like a whole giant building full of dying people in the middle of our city.
And, you know, like the hospital down the street.
Only they're not sick, you know?
You know what it is?
I think that it's a difficult I mean, it's a difficult thing to sort of cover because there I mean, you know, and our count doesn't even you know, we looked at just over the course of a year and we know that our count is several hundred deaths short that we're trying to, you know, firm up because there's just I mean, in a lot of cases, it basically boils down to whether or not the the authorities want to proactively put out information on jail death.
And that's the only reason I guess local sort of coverage is a difficult thing to cover because, you know, you got to remember that everyone's still removed from any forms of communication.
And, you know, there's obviously this automatic suspicion in a lot of circles of anything that's coming from inmates and sort of, you know, acceptance of what's coming from authorities.
And, you know, that's just sort of built into a lot of criminal justice coverage.
Or, you know, it's difficult if you're a local reporter covering your police department or your county sheriff and, you know, you're relying on them to send you information about, you know, the latest shooting or the latest, you know, the latest event in your town and, you know, to sort of buck the trend and go against that and really aggressively cover jail death as something that could hinder you in other ways.
So I think there's a lot of pushback to that.
And, you know, that's one thing that we've tried to emphasize in sort of the stories that we've written on this subsequently is, you know, sort of guide reporters on how they should really cover jail death.
Because when you're told, oh, this is a natural death cause, you know, the cause of death was natural causes, that isn't the end of the story in a lot of these cases.
It's like, OK, so, yeah, sure, it could have been a natural cause death.
That doesn't mean that there wasn't negligence on behalf of, you know, on the part of the authorities that, you know, could have potentially saved a life here or prevented a death here.
That's I mean, that shouldn't be the end of the inquiry.
But a lot of times it just is that just simply out of perhaps not understanding of what, you know, how this how this works and perhaps acceptance of the fact that, you know, oh, if you hold a bunch of people in a cage, you know, over the course of the year, some of them are going to die.
And I mean, that's true.
There is a number of, you know, if everything was run perfectly, I think there would still be instances in which people who were in jail died.
But right now, the system is far, far, far from perfect.
So that's something that we're going to try to continue highlighting through our reporting.
All right.
So I noticed you talk about the size of the jails here, and it's the smaller ones.
I guess the bigger they are, the more likely they are to have legitimate doctors and a little bit more supervision, something like that.
But what are the other common themes that you find between the jails that have the highest death rates?
You know, I think, you know, there are certain things that, you know, suicide protocols are often not in place in places where we see a lot of suicides.
There is often just privatization of medical care.
This seems to be a theme in a lot of these places, which is also something we're exploring, where it's just basically, you know, it's it seems like authorities are making purely economic choices about care or sort of not, you know, trying to avoid any cost.
You know, that might come from giving someone proper medical care.
So, I mean, that's sort of a pretty one that just jumped out to us a lot, I think, in our reporting so far.
Right.
Yeah, you can see how they can make it the other way, where, hey, every time you successfully treat an ill prisoner, you get a bonus, and then that'd be fine.
But the way the economic incentive is now is starve them, deprive them, do, you know, anything you don't give them is another nickel in the corporation's pocket on a government contract.
I mean, that's just absolutely a recipe for disaster right there.
You don't even need to check the numbers.
You already know it's going to be worse when that's the system.
Yeah, I think in a lot of cases, it's sort of a setup for failure.
What do you expect when you impose these sort of economic incentives in a lot of ways in a system that's supposed to keep human beings alive?
Right.
Hey, so have you seen, like, say, maybe in this state or that state where maybe they have a little bit better of a check and balance of review of some kind of accountability for the way that the jails are run, something like that, that maybe works a little better than another state, something like that?
I think there's some better tracking in some states than there is in others.
It's tough to really say, I mean, because, you know, I think the broader sort of issue here is that a lot of these people just should never, ever have been, you know, basically held for very long or perhaps arrested in the first place.
You know, so the bail system is really the sort of underlying bigger story here, which is that, you know, we have a lot of places where it's just about, you know, the amount of money you can afford is what determines whether or not you can, you can walk free.
So that's sort of a big issue.
I think that, I mean, that's really the first thing that should ultimately be addressed is lowering the jail population overall and making sure that the only people we're holding there are people who are just truly, you know, threats to society instead of just holding people there because they can't come up with a certain amount of money to get out.
Yep.
Yeah, you said it's the over-policing crisis in general.
And, you know, and we're only covering because it's such a huge topic here.
It's a whole topic on its own, just the jails.
But again, all these people in prison who are dying when, you know, basically of deprivation in the same kind of way.
Again, like you say, you can call it natural causes, but yeah, it's natural causes that wouldn't have killed them if they weren't in prison.
And a lot of those people don't even belong in there in the first place either.
I saw a stat this morning.
I won't even cite it because I don't know if it's really right, but it was some very high, super duper majority of people convicted plea bargain.
The trials, and this is something that that guy from Shadowproof talking about the prison strike had brought up as well about how trials are really just on TV and a thing of the past because the choice is always plea to three years or face 30.
And so everybody just pleads guilty.
And, you know, the whole thing about, you know, the Fifth and Sixth Amendment is just PR for the rubes for the most part, you know, law and order, TV show and all that.
That's really not how it works.
And so, you know, who knows by those standards how many people in prison, you know, really are innocent of the charges they're convicted of, even assuming that those charges and the conviction and the sentencing are, you know, basically copacetic where they should be, you know?
Yeah.
It's yeah, I mean, yeah, it's a big it's a big issue is people pleading guilty.
I mean, it's a huge, huge overwhelming issue in the system.
Yeah, it's funny, you know, we got everybody's got so many priorities, but this just seems like this is basically job one of the state supposedly is impartial and fair trials, civil and criminal.
It's the heart of America's PR shtick, red, white and blue and eagles and apple pie and the Bill of Rights, the right to face your accuser and cross examine them and testify in your own defense.
God dang it.
And all of this stuff like on TV is just is not how it works at all.
And it should be how it works.
That's why people believe in American freedom and whatever, because they believe that at the end of the day, innocence is a defense.
But if innocence isn't a defense, then, you know, where are we at?
What are we going to do about it?
Yeah, I think I mean, yeah, you're right.
It's a huge issue overall, just the way that I think the system works in a lot of the, you know, the presumption of innocence not really being something that really means too much within the current criminal justice system in a lot of places across the country.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Well, you're in the wrong political party.
So let's fight about that.
No, I'm just kidding.
Great work, man.
I really appreciate what you've done here and your time on the show today, Ryan.
Yeah, thanks for having me so much.
All right, y'all.
That is Ryan J. Reilly wrote this thing back last July at the Huffington Post with Dana Libelson, and it's called Sandra Bland died one year ago.
And since then, at least 810 people have lost their lives in jail.
As he said, that number is quite low.
They're working on it and going to have an update soon for us there.
But very important work there, everybody.
Please go and take a look at it.
Sandra Bland died a year ago at the Huffington Post.
And that's the Scott Horton Show.
Thanks, y'all very much for listening.
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They're perfect for saving or spending at the market.
And anyone who donates one hundred dollars or more to the Scott Horton Show at Scott Horton dot org slash donate gets one.
That's Scott Horton dot org slash donate.
And if you'd like to learn and order more, send them a message at commodity disks dot com or check them out on Facebook at slash commodity disks.
And thanks.
All right, y'all.
Scott Horton here.
And I got a great deal for you.
Anyone who helps support this show with a fifty dollar donation or more gets a copy of the brand new Rothbard book, Murray and Rothbard book of long lost essays from 1967 and 68.
It's entitled Never a Dull Moment.
A libertarian looks at the 60s.
Murray and Rothbard, really, Mr. Libertarian himself on Vietnam conscription, civil rights, LBJ and Nixon and all kinds of great stuff from back during those times.
Never a dull moment.
And it's an exclusive.
It's not available on Amazon yet.
It's an exclusive so far, at least for listeners of this show.
So be the first to get it.
Help support this show at the same time.
Just go to Scott Horton dot org slash donate.
And again, anyone who sends fifty dollars on this way, along with a mailing address.
And I will get this book right to you.
Thanks.
