03/25/16 – Will Grigg – The Scott Horton Show

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All right, L. Scott Horton's show.
I'm him, and introducing our friend Will Grigg from Pro Libertate.
That's freedominourtime.blogspot.com, freedominourtime.blogspot.com, and of course, he's the author of the book Liberty in Eclipse.
Welcome back to the show, Will.
How are you?
Scott, I'm doing well.
It's always a real pleasure to be with you.
Very happy to have you here, and very important story that you've written up.
Merrick Garland, we all know him, Obama's nominee to replace Antonin Scalia as Associate Justice on the Supreme Court.
Richard W. Roberts, for some reason that name rings a bell from the headlines of the last couple of weeks here, and of course, Kenneth Trinidou.
Let's start with that.
Who's Kenneth Trinidou, and then I guess when it becomes important, we'll get to the part about Richard Roberts here.
Will.
Kenneth Trinidou, for lack of a more suitable description, is somebody who was murdered by the FBI in a case of mistaken identity of the most improbable kind.
He had been a bank robber and served a term in prison, and upon being paroled, he apparently had become a changed man.
He got married, and at the time of his death in August of 1995, at the Federal Transfer Center in Oklahoma City, he was an expectant father.
He had violated his parole because for reasons that would make sense apparently only to this official, his parole officer decided to place a restriction on him, forbidding him to consume alcohol.
And he was not an alcoholic, Mr. Trinidou, he'd been a bank robber.
His crime was a crime of violence and theft, it had nothing to do with intoxication or diminished capacity.
And so he chafed under the restrictions placed upon him by a parole officer who is, for all intents and purposes, a slave owner when you're dealing with a parolee.
The parole officer completely dominates your life, it's like being in prison but you're not within a cell.
And he went to Mexico shortly after the Oklahoma City bombing to visit his wife's family, and he was arrested at a border crossing because an arrest warrant had been put out for a parole violation.
And he found himself taken to the Federal Transfer Center in Oklahoma City and put into a cell.
And a few days later, this is in August, once again, of 1995, his body was found hanging from a bed sheet.
And his mother Wilma was contacted by telephone by the temporary warden who informed her that her son had committed suicide, and that the body was going to be cremated in a couple of hours.
Now, Wilma Trinidou, who was one of nature's strong people, genuinely commendable mother, had sufficient presence of mind to say, you're not going to destroy the body of my son.
You need to contact his wife and get her approval.
The temporary warden wasn't aware that Kenneth Trinidou was married.
She didn't know who this person was.
And so the planned destruction of the corpse was put on hold while Wilma Trinidou and Kenneth's older brother, Jesse, traveled to Oklahoma.
And they were given custody of his remains, and they removed several layers of ineptly applied makeup and discovered that his body was riddled with evidence of a severe beating.
Contusions were found on his face, on his neck, his torso.
His knuckles were scraped, and there were injuries on the soles of his feet of the sort you wouldn't associate with a hanging.
And it became very clear quite quickly that he had been beaten to death.
There was evidence that he had been garroted by zip cuffs, apparently.
It was later discovered that the instrument used to choke him had been a pair of plastic zip cuffs.
And then part of his scalp had been torn away.
Now, this is some, obviously, this is something that wouldn't have happened if he'd just hanged himself in a fit of despondency.
And he was expected fathered once again.
He expected to be informed of the birth of his son in a couple of weeks.
As he was investigating what happened to his brother, Jesse received a phone call from somebody attached to the prison who said that there had been an interrogation that had gone wrong and that his brother Kenneth had been beaten to death by the FBI.
By this time, a lot of the pertinent physical evidence had been destroyed.
Before the body had been surrendered to Jesse Tredidou and the mother, Wilma Tredidou, the cell had been sanitized, the walls had been scrubbed, the floor had been scrubbed, the bedding had been removed, the clothing had been removed and taken into the possession of an FBI agent who would leave it in the trunk of his car until it putrefied and became useless for examination by the FBI's crime lab.
This all happened within the course of several weeks.
Over the course of the last 20 some odd years, Jesse Tredidou, who's a trial attorney in Salt Lake City, Utah, has been devoting as much of his time as he can afford, bearing in mind he has to maintain a business as well, and there's certain vulnerabilities that attach to that because he has to be in good favor, good standing with the Bar Association and such like.
But he has devoted as much of his time and energy as possible to trying to find out what happened to his brother and why he was killed.
And he has developed a formidable body of evidence that he was mistaken for a man named Richard Lee Guthrie, who was his near twin in a lot of ways.
They were of comparable age, they were the same size, they had similar builds, they were both slightly shorter than average height, but very muscular.
Brown hair, brown eyes, a mustache, although Richard Lee Guthrie, after he was taken into the prison system, shaved his mustache.
Each of them had a nearly identical dragon tattoo, and they'd both been bank robbers.
The biggest difference is that Richard Lee Guthrie attached to a group calling itself the Aryan Republican Army, which was a neo-Nazi group that would conduct bank robberies for the purpose of raising money for domestic terrorism.
In the course of investigating that threat of what happened, the idea that Guthrie was in prison at the same time that Kenneth Tredeby was in prison, and that Tredeby had been mistaken for Guthrie, what Jesse Tredeby, the brother, discovered is that the Aryan Republican Army was connected to the Oklahoma City bombing.
There were many people, many personalities, who had been associated with that group, including apparently Tim McVeigh, who had been involved in the planning of the execution of the bombing, and some of the people attached to the ARA made very good matches with some of the others unknown referred to in the original Oklahoma City indictment.
You recall that in addition to Timmy McVeigh, the indictment did mention others unknown, but that was dropped very quickly, and among the others unknown was a swarthy-looking, short, muscular, dark-haired man referred to as John Doe No.
2, who had been seen in the company of Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma City on the morning of the bombing.
And what Jesse Tredeby has been trying to find is videotaped evidence that has not been released by the FBI of the moments leading up to the blast, some of which apparently captured McVeigh in the company, in the presence of this John Doe No.
2.
Now, it was suspected that Richard Lee Guthrie might have been John Doe No.
2, or at least he might have known some of the potential suspects who would meet that description.
It's possible John Doe No.
2 was still at large, but Guthrie was in the same prison system, not in Oklahoma City, but he was in the federal prison system at the same time that Kenneth Tredeby was scooped up, apparently mistaken for Richard Lee Guthrie, and taken to Oklahoma City and beaten to death.
And within a few months, Guthrie was talking about how he intended to publish a memoir that would provide all kinds of blockbuster revelations about federal foreknowledge of the Oklahoma City bombing, the idea perhaps that it had been a sting operation that got awry.
But he was found hanging in his prison cell just a few months later, early 1996.
So over the last 21 years, a little bit more than that actually, roughly 21 years or so, Jesse Tredeby has been involved in a lengthy and very expensive and unbelievably frustrating legal struggle with the FBI, trying to find out what happened to the crucial video evidence that would be able to identify this man who was apparently mistaken for his brother, who was killed by the FBI.
Now it's important to recognize here that everything that was done in annotizing this cell and destroying the evidence of what was a crime scene, everything that was done was a violation of federal policy, Bureau of Prisons policy, and Oklahoma state law.
Medical examiners who had a chance to inspect the body concluded that this could not possibly have been a suicide.
One of the chief investigators for the Oklahoma State Medical Examiner's Office, rather, had said in no uncertain terms this was an act of murder.
And this is something that was not followed up on by the Bureau of Prisons.
Within a day, they had simply certified that this was a suicide, and as far as they were concerned, that was the end of the whole question.
Through his own persistence, Tredeby managed to create enough trouble, with the help of some officials there in the state of Oklahoma, that the Justice Department's Criminal Division conducted what they called an inquiry into the death of Kenneth Tredeby, and this lasted for roughly two years, through late 1997.
After convening a thoroughly manipulated federal grand jury, the Justice Department pronounced that this matter had been closed, that this was a suicide, Kenneth Tredeby, despite the abundant evidence that he had been beaten to death, had managed somehow to hang himself in such a way that he had inflicted all these injuries on himself, and that closed the matter, as far as they were concerned.
Jesse Tredeby, in October of 1997, wrote a very angry letter to the head, at the time, of the Justice Department's Criminal Division, recounting and documenting for the record conversations he had had, in which he had been told, in so many words, you just have to trust the government in this matter.
And Jesse Tredeby outlined, in the course of about four pages of text that was incandescent with rage, he outlined all the many reasons why this was an obvious cover-up of a matter that could not be dismissed as a suicide by any reasonable person.
And he said that he had abundant reasons not to trust the Justice Department.
There's no reason why you should trust the government generically, he said.
The Constitution's based on the idea that the government's fundamentally untrustworthy.
But specifically, you cannot trust the Justice Department, as Jesse's experience demonstrated.
Now, the head of the Criminal Division of the Justice Department at the time was a former federal prosecutor by the name of Richard W. Roberts.
And about a year later, Richard W. Roberts was nominated by Bill Clinton to be on the District Court for the District of Columbia, the U.S. District Court that covers the capital of the United States.
Richard W. Roberts, just a couple of weeks ago, as you alluded to previously, Scott, was compelled to resign, supposedly for health reasons, after a lawsuit was filed in the state of Utah against him by a woman whom he had raped and molested while he was a federal prosecutor in the early 1980s.
Now, Roberts admits that there was a sexual relationship with this woman.
Her name was now Terri Mitchell, it was Terri Elrod at the time.
He admits that there was a sexual relationship.
At the time, he was 27, almost 28 years old.
She was 16 when they began their supposed relationship.
What she said in her lawsuit, and this is something that has been validated in substantive part by an investigation conducted through the Attorney General's Office in Utah and also the House Oversight Committee and the Senate Judiciary Committee have been conducting parallel investigations of this matter, they confirmed that this so-called relationship began when she was a 16-year-old witness to a racially motivated double murder in Salt Lake City, carried out, as it happens, by a white supremacist bank robber.
I have no idea if there were any connections between his crimes in the 1970s and what was going on in the 1990s.
That's something I'd very much like to investigate, and I want to see other investigators look into that matter.
But she witnessed this double murder that was carried out in 1980, and she was being used as a witness in a federal civil rights trial that actually happened before the murder trial in the state of Utah, I would consider murder to be a much more important matter than civil rights violations, however serious they might be.
You can't have a greater crime than murder.
But the federal civil rights trial was conducted in early 1981.
She was enticed back to Mr. Roberts' hotel on the pretext of going over her testimony as trial prep, and while she was in the hotel room, he forced himself upon her and then told her that she couldn't disclose what had happened because if this were to become public knowledge, he would be removed from the case, a mistrial would be declared, and the man who had murdered two of her friends in front of her and injured her, she was by shrapnel as a result of a sniper attack, that this man would be let free.
And so he used the leverage, the threat that a murderer would be let loose as a way of compelling her to remain silent about the fact that he sexually exploited her, this is a 16-year-old girl once again, for about two months during the course of the civil rights trial.
And then in 1981, in 2013, the murderer, the man who committed that murder, was put to death in Missouri, and that prompted Mr. Roberts to get back in touch with Terry Mitchell.
She was able to arrange a phone call in which he disclosed and confirmed the sexual so-called relationship that they had had when she was 16.
That began an investigation that led to his resignation a couple of weeks ago under the cloud of potential criminal prosecution, or at least an investigation for judicial misconduct for something that he had done when he was a federal prosecutor.
His supervisor, his direct supervisor in the federal court system, was Merrick Garland, who is now the nominee to fill the seat that was made vacant by the death of Antonin Scalia.
Now their paths intersected during the Oklahoma City investigation, because at the preliminary hearing for Timothy McVeigh in April of 1995, there was a defense attorney who mentioned the existence of one of the videotapes now being sought by Jesse Trededieu.
There were several videotapes that were entered into evidence.
There was one critical videotape that was taken by a surveillance camera on a neighboring apartment building that wasn't entered into evidence, but there were still photographs that were entered into evidence that showed, allegedly, Timothy McVeigh setting the bomb or otherwise conducting business as he was preparing to murder 168 people.
Those photographs were entered, but the videotape itself was not entered.
Now the defense attorney wanted to know what happened to the videotape.
At that point, Merrick Garland objected strenuously on two occasions.
One of his objections was overruled, the second one was sustained.
But as a result of those objections, the courtroom investigation into the question of this videotape was foreclosed for a matter of decades, and now Jesse Trededieu can't get a hold of that videotape.
That's one of, I think, two or three critical videotapes, the existence of which has been confirmed as a matter of court record now, but that are being withheld from Jesse Trededieu, notwithstanding the fact that there are at least two existing court orders by Judge Clarence Wattups, he's a federal judge in Utah, that compel the FBI to provide all of the relevant video information to Jesse Trededieu, and there's an active case right now for contempt of court because the FBI continues to defy the court order to provide him with that material.
But if you take a look, if you walk back the thread of this to April of 1995, the person who actually took the initiative in foreclosing the disclosure of that videotape, for whatever reason, was Merrick Garland, who at the time was a federal prosecutor in the Oklahoma City bombing case.
So these paths intersect in the most peculiar and bizarre way possible.
They intersect, the paths of Merrick Garland, Richard Roberts, and Kenneth Trededieu in the matter of the Oklahoma City bombing.
And I don't think that the Senate, assuming that the Senate actually has confirmation hearings about the Merrick Garland appointment, that's being caught up right now in the predictable partisan rancor and rambling that goes on in Washington.
But if there were a confirmation hearing, I rather doubt that they would be willing to look into that element of what's happened here, in spite of the fact that Utah Senator Orrin Hatch is very well aware of what happened with Kenneth Trededieu.
He's very well aware that there was a cover-up perpetrated right from the beginning of that question back in August of 1995.
I don't, I would really, I would like to see confirmation hearings to see if there's anybody in the Senate with sufficient dangling anatomy to bring up these questions, because these are questions that go right to the very heart of one of the most significant things to happen in the last 25 or 30 years, which was the Oklahoma City bombing.
And in larger tempests here, Scott, this is something you've discussed on your program on a number of occasions.
What Trededieu has documented and examined to some depth is the existence of an off-the-shelf FBI infiltration program called PATCON.
That's a fomento of Patriot Conspiracy.
And it was a program through which the FBI, and as they had during the COINTELPRO program of the 1960s and 1970s, they infiltrated right-wing groups, so-called anti-government groups, feeding them with informants and provocateurs as a way of generating a steady series of what we now call Homeland Security theater operations to discredit certain movements on the fringes of American political dialogue and to generate convictions.
And of course, convictions are what the FBI produces.
That's the supposed benefit provided by this government agency.
But Oklahoma City, the Oklahoma City bombing was carried out, I'm satisfied, and so is Jesse Trededieu on the basis of the evidence, was carried out as a PATCON initiative.
And it was a sting operation, I'm willing to bet.
Some people think that it was a case of the federal government actually blowing up this building as a matter of blind intent.
I think that this is a case where ineptitude actually is the larger and more significant element than malignity.
I mean, they obviously coexist.
In this case, I think they were trying to be just a little bit too clever.
They were trying to finesse something that wasn't susceptible to finesse.
And they blew the sting operation and 168 people died, because they were messing around with something that is intended to shape the public mind rather than to protect the public against crime.
And so for the last 20 some odd years now, we've seen an effort, an ongoing effort in order to protect the people who are implicated in this world historic crime in Oklahoma City.
And I don't think that there'd be much of a constituency among the type of people you'd find in the Senate for a candid examination of this.
But oh, dear God, I wish there would be.
This is something I would desperately like to see.
All right, a couple of notes here.
First of all, there's an article from 2010 in the New York Times by Charlie Savage, which is a profile of Merrick Garland, which in which Oklahoma City is sort of, you know, as Bill Clinton said, saved his presidency.
For Merrick Garland, this is the big notch in his career.
This is what made his career and made him famous within the Justice Department.
He was the head of the criminal division at the time, I believe you said, correct?
Or Richard Roberts was the head of the criminal division, if I remember correctly.
Well, by 1997, Richard Roberts was.
Well, I'm trying to think what was what exactly I don't have in front of me.
But do you remember what was Garland's job at the Justice Department at the time of the Oklahoma bombing?
He was he was just the U.S. attorney at the time.
He was the U.S. attorney assigned to the prosecution of Timothy McVeigh.
That's what that that did make his career.
I guess I had it mistaken that he was.
Well, I don't know.
Damn, I'm sorry, man.
I wish I had reread that New York Times piece before I brought it up here.
But the way they made it sound, I thought, was that he came down from the Justice Department and took control of the investigation in a way that, you know, in their spin made him a real hero.
And he was taking credit for intervening on a lower level of decision making than someone in his position would normally do.
In other words, he wasn't delegating.
He went down there and took charge, which, of course, from your my point of view, is not a claim of credit, but is a claim of responsibility for a massive cover up.
And and it belies any notion of deniability on his part that you know, maybe Bob Ricks and them screwed up something, but I never heard of that.
You know what I mean?
Yes, he really is claiming a real hands on role here.
Yeah, he was the guy dispatched from Washington, D.C. from the criminal criminal division, the Justice Department, to have direct hands on control and supervision of the prosecutions in Oklahoma City.
And that, of course, was the most important case for a number of years, at least for the two years between 95 and 97.
There were probably, I would assume, probably something on the order of 60 to 75% of the FBI's personnel tasked to what they call the Oak bomb investigation.
And of that group, I would say probably a quarter of them were actually involved in trying to solve the case.
And the rest of them were involved in trying to make sure that the case wasn't solved to the point where we know everything germane regarding the others I've known, particularly that were involved in that terrorist attack.
Because that question implicated the people that the DOJ was trying to protect who had been orchestrating this thing.
And yet he was dispatched from Washington, D.C. as their official emissary.
He did make his career on the basis of the prosecution of the Oklahoma City bombing.
There's no reason to expect that he would be ignorant of the existence of these videotapes and other evidence that would lead an actual inquiry away from the direction that they were trying to channel it, which was the idea that Timothy McVeigh, excuse me, that Timothy McVeigh, though, were almost exclusive responsibility for this, that he was the not the lone gunman, but effectively the lone bomber.
And they wanted to make sure that the argument against the so called anti government right will be made by inference and insinuation, rather than exposing the material that would have shown that the FBI had infiltrated the worst elements of that group, and they were actively promoting criminal misconduct.
Just by way of underscoring how cynical this was, over the last 10 years or so, the last 10 to 15 years, post 9-11, we've seen the FBI target all these marginalized Muslim males for these sting operations where somebody will show up, rile up a targeted Muslim individual by showing him video recordings of U.S. military operations that result in villages being wiped out and women and children being killed, and then point him in the direction of doing something stupid with a dummy bomb.
As you'd say, have him say something stupid into a microphone, then give him a dummy bomb and send him out to bomb some targeted location.
And at the last minute, the FBI swoops in, they take control of the supposed bomb, which is a dud, it couldn't have actually done any damage.
And then they arrest him.
And then the headline triumphantly talks about the FBI interdicting yet another terrorist plot.
They were doing the same thing through PatCon back in the 1990s, probably in the 1980s, with right-wing groups, white supremacist groups and people of that ilk.
The Aryan Republican Army, as they carried out their bank robberies, were using dummy bombs provided to them by the FBI.
So they were stealing from banks, they're going in and taking these huge hauls from banks and using them to fund other operations that were being directed by PatCon.
And what clearly happened here on the basis of what we've been able to learn, is that part of what happened at Oklahoma City was funded in this way.
And that if that link had been allowed to be, had been left undestroyed by Merrick Garland in his investigation, if he'd not broken that link, the chain would have led right back to PatCon, right back to all these proprietary operations being run by the FBI.
He had to have known about this.
We're probably not going to have the Judiciary Committee investigate this.
But that would be the most important thing they could do, which means, of course, it's the first thing they'll try to avoid.
Right.
Yeah, that's definitely true.
All right.
Now, I want to mention here, and I know I'm kind of beating a dead horse, and it's not even the most important point in this book, but really, Will, I'm on a mission to memorize this page number.
I keep messing it up and getting it in the wrong order.
It's 328, Scott Horton, 328.
Oklahoma City, What the Investigation Missed and Why It Still Matters by Gumbel and Charles.
And on page 328, Larry Mackey, who was one of the prosecutors, one of the federal prosecutors under the U.S.
Attorney there, he admits in a very kind of convoluted way, we may have discussed this before.
He says he's speaking for all of his colleagues when asked if the rest of the prosecutors working the case felt the same as him.
He said, if you had said to us, anyone in this room 100 percent confident that McVeigh was alone, raise your hand.
We would have all kept our hands in our laps, which is just it's all full of these weird double negatives and new speak and avoiding of responsibility.
But what he's saying here is, if you asked us, did we let the rest of the perpetrators go, we would all have to raise our hands that we all know that we really didn't go all the way through this investigation, all the way to the end.
And now we're impressed on the point in the book, their excuse, such as it is, their explanation is they didn't want to jeopardize the death penalty case against McVeigh and that by bringing up Andre Strassmeier and bringing up Michael Brescia and bringing up Richard Lee Guthrie, that this would mean reasonable doubt that maybe McVeigh was just a stupid idiot driving the truck.
But, you know, somebody else was the mastermind and then he might get away with only life and not death.
And so that was their excuse.
And of course, I'm with you.
Obviously, you have all kinds of flip states, witnesses and undercover informants and prior knowledge that you could fill a book with on the part of the ATF and the FBI before this thing happened.
And so anyway, I just want I like pointing that out, that they will concede at least about what, three quarters or maybe seven eighths of what you're saying here, Wilgric.
They just kind of they don't want to admit that it's for the reasons that you say, but but they can see that, yes, the others got away.
Well, consider this, Scott.
The rationale that you're describing here is the macrocosmic application of the method used by Roberts to ensure the silence of his rape victim.
If we were to tell the full truth, then the system that we serve is going to let these dangerous people get away.
Now, think about that for just a second.
It wouldn't make sense to say that you should focus on making sure that Timothy McVeigh dies and then in doing so compromise, excuse me, in doing so compromise a process that would protect the public against the people who were his associates.
That's the priority here for the so-called Justice Department.
Yeah, we have to make sure this guy dies.
Why is it so important to make this make sure this guy dies as opposed to sending him to prison for the rest of his life?
If you send him to prison for the rest of his life and in doing so you find out who the other people were, that's for the larger benefit of the public.
But of course, that would injure the interests of the power elite because the people that whose identities would be revealed would compromise people within the Justice Department and within the executive branch.
Protecting those people, the expensive public is a priority of the Justice Department.
And of course, they were only prosecuting him for killing any feds that died there that day.
Any federal police, any other civilians, they could still be prosecuted in state court.
No problem.
And the people of Oklahoma would have been happy to lynch McVeigh.
Oh, I don't doubt that for a second.
There's no way on earth that he would have avoided the death penalty if he would have been tried, first of all, as he should have been for the crime committed in the jurisdiction of Oklahoma under its murder statutes, under the constitutional scheme.
That's what should be focused on first.
But the first and most urgent priority was to make sure that Timothy McVeigh was punished for his crimes against the imperium.
It's the same sort of thing that led Richard Roberts to Salt Lake City back in 1980 and 1981.
For whatever reason, the federal government wanted to get involved in a federal civil rights prosecution of a guy who'd gunned down two black joggers just because he didn't like seeing black joggers in the company of white women.
That's something that needs to be looked at here.
How long has PatCon been going on?
Okay.
Was Joseph Paul Franklin, the murderer who was involved in the incident in 1980, was he involved in some ancestor of PatCon?
That's something that really should be looked at as well.
You know, I have that book that J.D. Cash told me to get years ago.
It's by...
Oh, man.
I bet you've probably already read it, but it's all about the original knights of whatever, Nazis and constitutional committees, self-appointed right-wing kooks, far, far, far right-wing kooks back in the 70s and 80s there.
The original generation of McVeigh and his buddies.
Man, I'm sorry.
I'm forgetting the name of the book.
Are you talking about the novel?
No.
In fact, here, say something interesting for a second, and I'm going to find it.
Well, the thing that I find most compelling, once again, about what happened here with the cover-up of McVeigh's Others Unknown is the fact that you had this Richard Roberts using that same torqued, inverted logic to serve his own personal interests, whereas it was used in the Oklahoma City bombing case for the purpose of protecting the institutional interests of the so-called Justice Department and the FBI.
Oh, it was Committee of the States.
That's the book by Cherry Seymour.
Does that sound familiar?
That does sound familiar.
I've not read that as it happens.
It sounds like a fascinating book.
Jamie Cash told me to read that, and I believe it was on the tangent of the original plot to bomb the Oklahoma City building.
One of the same guys who was involved in that, Snell, was executed the day of the actual Oklahoma bombing, and this was a book about him and all his buddies, I think.
Yeah.
But we do know, if we want to talk about the pedigree of PatCon, I'd mention COINTELPRO.
COINTELPRO, of course, targeted the Black Panthers, the American Indian Movement, and Students for a Democratic Society, and other groups that are placed, for whatever reason, on the left of the spectrum, often arbitrarily.
I think AIM is a little bit more difficult to taxonomize than that.
But they also focused on the Ku Klux Klan.
They focused on the American Nazi Movement.
There's pretty good evidence that George Lincoln Rockwell, the head of the largest Nazi group, was on the FBI payroll.
It was a matter of well-established folk wisdom back in the 1960s that if you had six Klansmen in a room, at least four of them are going to be working for the FBI.
We know that the largest Klan group that was headed by Sam Bowers was infiltrated by Delmar Dennis, who had been hired as an informant by the FBI.
Delmar Dennis had been a chapter leader for the John Birch Society, who was recruited into the KKK, and rapidly, and to his credit, very quickly became disillusioned with it.
He'd been nurtured on the lure of the KKK as the defenders of fair Southern womanhood, and he joined the Klan, and the first thing he saw were a group of people whose hands were bloody because they'd gone to a black church and beaten up a bunch of people at worship.
Delmar Dennis was a preacher.
He didn't think that the Klan represented that kind of violence.
When he discovered that it did, he contacted the FBI.
He said, well, stay in the Klan for a while.
We could be useful to have an informant in the Klan.
And Dennis, from what I've been able to read, did some good work in terms of actually exposing evidence of crime, such as the Mississippi burning murders case.
He was the chief witness in the eventual civil rights trial in the 1990s.
He was involved in the Medgar Evers case, the civil rights trial of the 1990s.
But the point I'm making here is that the FBI had obviously infiltrated many of the groups that eventually coalesced into groups like the Committee of the States, the Covenant Sword and Arm of the Lord, and the others that were involved as sort of a farm team for the groups that were organized by the FBI through BATCON in the 1990s.
Well, and so what's so interesting about that, right, is that anybody would actually probably prefer that.
I could think of an excuse for the existence of the FBI would be to keep the Klan on a leash, right?
But I don't want them making them worse, Will.
The point is to neutralize them, not build up and blow up a building full of little babies.
Exactly.
They treat these people as assets rather than as enemies.
They're interested primarily in institutional self-preservation and perpetuating their mission.
This falls into the category of what you and I have heard referred to as the soft-licking ice cream cone.
If you didn't have the FBI involved in funding groups of this sort, Scott, I'm convinced they would no longer exist.
They weren't involved in nurturing in various ways, both direct and indirect.
You probably wouldn't have a lot of these right-wing neo-Nazi groups, or what are called right-wing neo-Nazi groups and white ethnic groups, ethno-nationalist groups.
They've been doing this for decades now, and they do the same thing with some groups on the left, no doubt.
But over the last 20 years or so, they've moved from doing this with the ethno-nationalist or white supremacist groups.
They've started doing the same thing with Muslim groups now, when the focus of demand shifted after September 11.
That became a growth stock during the first decade of this century, and the same thing's going on now.
Although there's evidence right now that they've redirected their attention once again at what's called the political right, particularly with respect to land rights disputes out here in the western United States.
But this is one of the things that government does.
Government creates the poison and the antidote in the same laboratory.
They're the proverbial firefighter who moonlights as an arsonist.
Right.
Well, yeah, and they do such a great job of tarring the entire right with the very worst of them.
Not that I'm a big fan of the right, but still, they ain't a bunch of Nazis.
They're conservatives, and that's bad enough, but let's not lie about them.
Even the right populists, they're populists, but still, that doesn't necessarily make them Nazis.
Exactly.
What's funny is here is, as you mentioned before earlier in the interview here, when it came to the Oklahoma bombing, they accused only in the most general way they kind of connected the right to it.
And what's interesting about that is they skipped right over the Nazis and right over people who were the actual white supremacists who did this stuff, the Aryan Republican Army, who were McVeigh's friends who helped them and their ideological cousins, etc.
And instead, they went after every militia group in America, which at that time included a lot of, let's be honest, regular folks who were upset about Waco.
I just want to make sure the message was clear that we all have each other's phone numbers and rifles, and we're not going to let you do anything like that around here.
But they weren't any offensive threat, and they weren't white supremacists.
They didn't hate blacks and Jews, etc., like that.
The vast majority of them.
I remember Bill Curtis on A&E did an investigative report about a bunch of the different militias, and he's like, I'm impressed by these guys.
They're fine, man.
But meanwhile, according to TV, the militia did it.
The militia did it.
The Branch Davidians did it.
They went forward in time and blew up Oklahoma, and that justified what we did to them.
And everybody did it except the actual Nazis, the Hitler-loving, bank-robbing Nazis that actually did the bombing.
And they suppressed that part of the narrative so much in exploiting and blaming everyone from Rush Limbaugh and all the way to the right from there for it.
You know, basically every white gun owner in America or whatever supposedly was responsible.
Then on the day of the execution, they literally on CBS Morning News Today show or whatever it is saying, well, isn't that interesting that his head is shaved all the way to the skin?
Huh?
Yeah, I wonder if he means anything by that.
Yeah, we didn't actually bother to cover that angle on this mass murder for the last seven years.
And so now, what a mystery.
Is that a thing with the Michigan militia?
Did they all shave their head directly to the skin?
No.
You know?
Well, the really interesting point in this discussion, Scott, is that Timothy McVeigh showed up for at least a couple of meetings of militia groups and he was thrown out.
They didn't want to have anything to do with him.
And if he's the sort of a person who would either trigger the moral gag reflex of militia activists or provoke them to doing a background check to discovering that he was the sort of person whose company they wouldn't enjoy, there's obviously no excuse for the FBI not to be able to have similar discernment in dealing with people such as those who were at Elohim City there, which was a white supremacist commune in Oklahoma State that was a staging area and organizing nexus for a lot of the people who were involved with the bombing.
And it was completely overrun with federal informants, including one, Carol Howe, who was with the ATF, who was actually there trying to prevent crimes.
You know, the one person who was there about who we can say, with something approaching moral certainty, that she was actually trying to prevent the Oklahoma City bombing.
She was the one, Carol Howe, who took that role and then burned her.
They exposed her identity and then sent her back, knowing that she would probably get killed once she had been revealed to be a federal asset.
You know, the people who actually do this sort of work as cooperating informants or as undercover operatives, who are actually trying to prevent crimes of this sort, they're the ones who end up being left out there to be taken down, killed, or they're the ones who end up being prosecuted for things they didn't actually do, as opposed to the ones who are there for the purpose of incitement or the purpose of orchestrating crimes, for which the FBI will eventually take some credit, either by interdicting their own plot or by capturing somebody after people have been killed, which is what happened at Oklahoma City.
I mean, it seems to be pretty clear that the FBI had set up the scenario in Oklahoma City that they were going to prevent this horrible thing from happening, thereby creating this huge wave of revulsion against anybody who criticized the ATF and the FBI.
The ATF, of course, had offices there at the Murrah Building.
The ATF offices in the Murrah Building had been involved in the Holocaust at Mount Carmel in 1993.
All kinds of propaganda benefit would have accrued from preventing the bombing of that building.
But apparently what happened is that the bombing went forward, and then they had to improvise.
They had to call an audible, and they've been running that play now since April of 1995.
And part of that resulted in the murder of Kenneth Trededue, and it happens that his brother is a singularly tenacious and capable attorney who's not going to let this go.
And he found perhaps the one honest judge in the entire U.S. court system there, Clarence Wattis, who's looking at this stuff, and he's handed out a series of rulings at the expense of the FBI.
And I think sometime this year, he's going to get them with a huge contempt judgment.
And at that point, I don't know what's going to happen, but it's going to add to the existing record here showing that the FBI has lied at every step of this process.
All right, now I want to dumb that down just a little, not as dumb as I did before with the death penalty excuse.
That was their excuse, and I hope I made it clear that I didn't really believe it.
But it's worth bringing up because that's the only context in which they'll admit that, yeah, they let others go, which is pretty big.
But I want to dumb down what you say there and your metaphor with the entrapment cases of the Muslims.
And I'm not saying I doubt you because I think I completely agree with you about that.
And I think Andre Karl Strassmeier is probably the key to that as a guy who really was a fake Nazi, who was a cop, who was there to set these guys up.
However, there's enough doubt there just because of my ignorance.
OK, I'm not trying to debunk anyone else on this issue necessarily or anything like that.
But I want to give you a little bit dumber model than that, which I think fits and makes them only one millionth of one percent less guilty.
And that would be more like the first World Trade Center attack, where as far as I know, it will.
And again, I'm not trying to debunk anyone who really does know better than me necessarily on this.
I'm going to say my best evidence on this is that these guys, Abu Aleem, I mean, if you read Peter Lance, it's the best on this in the world, by the way.
You read Abu Aleem and all these guys, they wanted to blow up this building and they recruited a guy named Salem to build the bomb who went straight to the FBI and said, glory day, I've been recruited to build the bomb in this plot.
And isn't that great?
And let's do it.
They kept him as an informant.
I know I'm not teaching you anything, but I'm trying to get through this quick for the analogy for the audience here.
They kept him inside the plot for a while, but then they basically burned him as as Carol Howe was burned.
And in this case, they wanted him to wear a wire as Carson Dunbar was the FBI supervisor who over his agent's dead bodies, by the way, insisted on he has to wear a wire and no, we won't give him a raise from three to five hundred bucks a week while he's sleeping on the floor of the mosque with these guys as they're planning this attack.
So he told the guys, man, I got to get out of here.
I think the FBI is on my tail, so I'm going to leave town and take the heat off of you guys.
Bye.
He left the plot.
And then in came Ramzi Yousef, who built the bomb that killed six people and that very well could have toppled very well could have toppled one tower into the other tower at five o'clock in the afternoon.
Yeah.
Killing 20,000 something people.
That would have been 9-11 just times.
Can you imagine on the day before the Waco raid or two days before the Waco raid if that had happened?
So that that is, again, a huge attack.
Not exactly a sting, but sort of a sting.
Right.
They didn't completely invent it like these ridiculous entrapment cases nowadays, but they boy, if they had done their work, they sure could have stopped it.
And they didn't.
And I think that, you know, I'm not I'm not, I guess, willing 100 percent to concede that this must have been Strassmeier's idea and not McVeigh's idea to do this in the first place.
And maybe they just could have really, really, really could have stopped it, but didn't.
Well, they could have attached themselves to an existing plot.
That's what I'm trying to say.
Yeah.
And then and assume that they could somehow put enough body English on it to avert the worst outcome at the last possible second.
And in the case of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, if Mohammed Salameh hadn't been such a world historic idiot, if he had followed his directions exactly and placed the Ryder truck in his history, that's an interesting little point of commonality here with the Oklahoma City bombing, the Ryder truck involvement here.
If he placed the Ryder truck against the structural support column that he'd been told to, rather than a different one, then you very well could have had the domino effect that would have brought down those towers simultaneously and killed probably tens of thousands of people.
And the only reason why you had this be a damp squib rather than a stick of dynamite, so to speak, in terms of the order of magnitudes in the actual event, was the stupidity of Mohammed Salameh.
That's the one thing that actually saved tens of thousands of people in Manhattan on that day in January of 1993.
The FBI, as you pointed out, had detailed and specific knowledge of what was going on, they knew where the bombs were being mixed, they did the composition of the bombs, they knew the key players.
There was a fellow by the name of Ali Mohammed, who was listed as an unindicted co-conspirator in the January 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center.
And I think it was about six months later that FBI agents arrested people from the same cell who were fixing another bomb, another fertilizer and diesel fuel bomb.
And this Ali Mohammed fellow, as it turns out, was somebody who had deep connections to US military intelligence.
And so you've got this consistent thread here, where the FBI puts together these little groups, and then sets up these dramatic sting operations.
And in the course of doing so, they get people killed.
There could have been, as we mentioned, tens of thousands of people were killed in Manhattan in 1993, in the first World Trade Center bombing, if it hadn't been for the stupidity of Mohammed Salameh, perhaps the providential stupidity of him.
And a couple of years later, at Oklahoma City, they were running the same scenario when people did die, scores of people died in that bombing.
And so we're taking a look at the long term cover up here that Jesse Trinidou has been investigating now since 1995.
There are people in positions of trust in the United States government, who are deeply implicated either in arranging or orchestrating these sting operations that became huge terrorist attacks, or in abetting the cover up thereof.
And Merrick Garland is up to his waist, at least, in all of this ugliness.
And it would be a tremendous service to what remains of our Republic, if the Senate were to investigate this matter in the course of considering whether they confirmed him to a position on the US Supreme Court, it would be a terrible outcome for him to end up on the Supreme Court.
So if you end up with the Senate deciding, because of Republican obstructionism, that they're not going to consider the nomination, that would be useful.
But I think a greater service will be performed if they were to hold those hearings and ask these questions.
And I don't think anybody there would be interested in doing so, alas.
Well, as you well know, Will, that'd be the first time the Senate ever held hearings on the Oklahoma City bombing.
Exactly.
For some reason that I just can't figure out.
All right, I did not want to broach the issue.
I've kept a way extra time here, but I sure am glad I did.
And I know that every single one of the listeners will be glad as well.
So thank you so much for coming back on the show and talking about this very important subject with us, Will.
Thank you so much, Scott.
All right, y'all, that is the heroic Will Grigg.
He's the author of Liberty in Eclipse.
He writes at freedominourtime.blogspot.com.
That's Pro Libertate, freedominourtime.blogspot.com.
And this article here, let me tell you, its title is Merrick Garland, Richard W. Roberts and the Kenneth Trinidou murder.
The deep state takes care of its own.
And as you can tell, you just heard him.
The article is written with just as much substance and style as well.
And one more thing I want to mention here, because people ask me what's a good documentary on Oklahoma City.
And the only one I know is a speech by Jesse Trinidou.
I don't like any of the other ones.
Talking Stick TV, Jesse Trinidou, Death, Lies and Revenge in Federal Custody.
That is the best thing for you to watch there if you want a YouTube version here.
All right.
Thank you very much, everybody.
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