02/16/16 – Philip Giraldi – The Scott Horton Show

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All right, you guys, welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton.
It's my show, The Scott Horton Show.
And first guest up today is our friend Phil Giraldi, former CIA and DIA officer.
Well, quote, unquote, former.
I don't know exactly how that works.
Once you're in the mafia, they never let you out, right?
And then, yeah, he's also a regular writer at the American Conservative Magazine and unz.com.
Welcome back to the show, Phil.
How are you doing?
I'm fine, Scott.
How are you?
I'm doing real good.
I'm kind of just messing with you there.
But then again, I asked you if you could be on the show and you emailed me back and said, I'm in Sudan.
And I thought, wow, I guess that's how it works when you're in the CIA.
They just keep you working even after you retire.
Is that it?
Not exactly.
Are you just there in Darfur on vacation?
It would not have been much of a vacation.
I was in Khartoum.
I was the guest of an NGO that has been inviting Americans and Europeans over to get a look on the ground of what's going on in the country.
And in particular, obviously, they're trying to mitigate the sanctions that the United States has imposed on the country.
So I was there kind of assessing what was going on and what the what the real reality was.
That's interesting.
OK, so what's the real reality?
Well, the real reality is that it's an autocratic state.
There's a lot of things.
There are a lot of things not to like about it.
There is continuing low level conflict in Darfur, as well as in other regions in the country.
But at the same time, the the reasons for instituting across the board sanctions, for example, in Sudan, they can't bank.
They can't get money out of the country.
They can't buy things from other countries because the United States has put a clamp over their banking system.
So the whole economy is affected by what the United States is doing.
And so anyway, you know, the the fact is, these these sanctions were put in place at a time when everything was quite different, when there was a major war going on with the southern part of the country, a civil war.
And there was extreme violence in Darfur.
So, you know, my conclusion basically is that the sanctions have have outlived their usefulness.
And it's time to take another look at them and try to give the Sudanese a chance to develop their economy.
All right now, so and just to be clear here, so you weren't sent there by Langley.
You were just invited by this NGO and you went.
No, I mean, Langley would would probably want to send me somewhere where I would disappear down a hole for a long time.
But that Langley doesn't particularly like me.
So I am not certainly going to be on their approval list for for doing travel.
Yeah.
OK, now I can say here I can't prove that.
But I think if anybody will read your articles that they would see why you would say that.
And that's probably the most likely, you know, explanation of how it is the bosses feel about you these days.
And so speaking of which, let's talk about South Sudan.
It was the USA and the CIA that invented such a thing, huh?
Well, to a certain extent, it was like, you know, the since I came back, I've done some research on on the issue of what happened there, how it happened and so on and so forth.
And the U.S. media and the U.S. government, to a certain extent, portrayed this as a conflict between Muslims in the north and Christians and animus in the south.
And, of course, the Christians and animus are mostly black African and the Muslims, of course, are Arabs.
But, of course, when you actually visit Sudan, you realize that it's it's ethnically, racially and religiously a whole lot more mixed than that.
If you go to the downtown area where the government offices are located, the first thing you see is the Roman Catholic Cathedral and it's open, you know.
So it's there are a lot of contradictions in terms of the stuff that the U.S. was peddling.
And you're certainly right that there was a lot of involvement of of, shall we say, clandestine forces from the United States in terms of how things developed and why they developed the way they did.
Well, that's because all the oil is in the south, not the north.
And so they want to just break it right off and and then thereby keep the Chinese out more than anything else.
Right.
But, of course, the Chinese are in because because of our stranglehold on banks and things like that, the only ones who will invest there are Chinese.
Yeah.
All right now.
Well, yeah.
So that's an interesting point that so the American government is is pursuing this policy, but they're freezing American companies out.
Yeah, that's right.
Chevron was in there and I think a couple of other oil companies from the U.S.
And as soon as the bank freeze went in place, they they left.
So basically we cut off our own business interests.
Oh, that's because the pipeline has to run through the north.
The rest is Sudan.
Is that right, Phil?
To Port Sudan.
That's right.
South Sudan is landlocked and the pipeline goes up to Port Sudan.
It's the only way to export the oil.
So South Sudan and North Sudan have now cut a deal.
They're working together.
They have no problem with it.
But apparently the Obama administration does.
So anyway.
OK, now you got two very important articles here.
The Pentagon fights back and Israel's international conspiracy is the one we really got to talk about in the next segment.
But for the rest of this one, can we please talk about what the hell is going on in Syria right now?
And I'm sorry, because I know you've been out of town, but I know you must also know that Turkey has been bombing.
Apparently, Kurds and Assad's forces inside Syria, right as America and Russia say they've worked out a ceasefire.
Phil?
Yeah, it's totally insane.
Well, Erdogan, the Turkish president, is totally insane.
He's the one that's driving all this because basically he sees a process developing that is contrary to what he would want to see in the region.
And that means essentially, and you and I have talked about this before, he is basically, I don't know, pathological about the possible development of any Kurdish entity, political entity, anywhere in the region.
And so he's going after the Kurds again.
He's apparently, he is threatening right now to invade with the Turkish army and to basically go after the Kurds, go after Assad's army.
These are, you know, they're the only effective forces against ISIS.
And they're being backed by the Russians and the Americans against ISIS right now.
Right.
But I just, I just read something online where, you know, they're saying that the United States might back Turkey in this.
I can't even understand it anymore.
I mean, admittedly, our government is completely insane.
But sometimes you have to even question whether insanity is a good enough label.
Yeah.
Incoherent is probably just more to the point.
It's like nobody's in charge, least of all the president.
But, you know, John Kerry was saying the right thing, which was, well, what do you want me to do?
Get into war with Russia?
Sorry, forget it.
In other words, my bluff has been called.
I'm backing down now, which is exactly what I want to hear every government official say about everything.
God damn it.
But in this case, I mean, I couldn't ask for better than that at this point, really.
And yet does does he have no influence in Ankara or what?
I don't know.
I mean, you know, I think that essentially right from the beginning, Erdogan has been playing his own game.
And that's that's been obvious.
It should have been obvious to everybody.
But I think that here's the calculation.
I think the calculation is that the United States believes that to have any kind of successful policy vis-a-vis Syria, Turkey has to be a major player and Turkey has to be a base for U.S. air power, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
So they've basically come down with the viewpoint that it's better to have Turkey in this somehow than to have them out of it.
But I can't even see that anymore.
I mean, Turkey is the loose cannon on deck that's going to destroy any kind of agreement.
And that essentially is going to go after the only effective forces fighting ISIS.
ISIS is the only thing there that threatens the United States in any way.
Well, so if Turkey really threatens Assad's government, then Russia is going to bomb Turkey.
That is that is a distinct possibility.
Yeah.
And that is something to think about, too.
I mean, you know, as far as I'm concerned, the Russians regrettable that there have been civilian casualties.
But the Russians are the only ones that are pushing this fight and are doing it successfully.
And, you know, yet we can't take the old gift horse in the mouth on this.
Well, you know, I don't know if the presidential campaign is that much of an indicator of it.
But it seems like, you know, if you hear the Hillary Clinton, Jeb Bush consensus on this, it's still that Assad is the obstacle here.
America, you know, Jeb is complaining that Russia's bombing al Qaeda, not just ISIS, like there's promised and all this kind of crap.
Still, you know, they sound like they're stuck on the talking points of four months ago and can't get them updated.
And I don't know if they're going to get us all killed.
I know it sounds silly to to talk about war between the U.S. and Russia when it seems so unnecessary.
But then again, our allies seem to be, you know, risking it.
One sec, y'all.
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All right, y'all, welcome back.
All right, now, coming up at the top of the hour, we got Joe Lauria, who's written quite a few good pieces about what's going on in Syria as well for consortiumnews.com.
And he's regularly with The Wall Street Journal.
But so right now, I want to change the subject.
Well, it's obviously related, the subject.
It's Phil Giraldi on the line.
And his latest piece for UNS.com is called Israel's International Conspiracy.
Nearly every Western country has an Israel lobby.
And, you know, of course, as we know, and I don't think we really need to rehearse all the ways right now, although we could if you want to talk about it, Phil.
A big part of America's policy in Syria is basically just a favor to Israel to help weaken Iran, because that's what Israel wants, to help weaken Assad, who supports Hezbollah, because that's what Israel wants.
They've made that very clear over the years.
The Americans have made it very clear.
I mean, Obama told Jeffrey Goldberg, that's right, Jeffrey Goldberg, that's why I'm doing this, all right, in 2012.
So there's just no mystery about it.
So the question is, how could the world's greatest empire of all history, the biggest government in the history of the solar system, take orders from a country the size of New Jersey over there in the eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea?
And the same thing for, you know, the old Roman Empire in the European Union.
How is it that the Israelis get away with what they get away with, Phil?
Well, I mean, part of it goes back, you know, to a Holocaust guilt trip, and that's particularly effective when dealing with the Europeans.
And, of course, in the United States, we have different buttons that are pushed.
There's been a consistent effort for the last 50 years to convince the public, by way of the media, by way of contacts in government, that Israel's foreign policy objectives and its security needs are basically identical to those of the United States.
And, of course, that's nonsense.
A lot of this is done, and what I discuss in the article is that this is a carefully coordinated effort run out of Israel, in many cases, using diaspora Jews and sympathetic Christians, essentially, to create this narrative.
And it happens everywhere.
And in every country, there's a lobby that has its own kind of distinctive footprint, but at the same time is lined up uncritically with support of Israel and whatever the Israeli government is doing.
So we find it in France, we find it in Britain, we find it in Germany, we find it in Australia, New Zealand, Canada.
It's worldwide.
Well, and here in America, I mean, I guess, especially when it comes to the Congress, basically the message is, if you cross us, there will be hell to pay.
But, obviously, there's a lot more to the lobby than that.
But that seems to be really where the rubber meets the road is, oh, we will back whoever primaries you.
And we will back whoever opposes you in the general if you survive the primary.
And we won't forget you, and we'll stay after your ass for 10 years.
And, hey, that's good politics in a democracy.
No doubt about that.
And, of course, they're not registered as foreign agents.
They get to act like this is all just American issues or whatever.
But, so, is that how it is in Europe, too, that they have that much influence over the legislative branches?
Or what are the levers that they're pushing on?
Well, it's very similar in a lot of ways.
In terms of influence over the legislature, there's a long tradition of Jewish parliamentarians closely allied to Israel in both the conservative and labor parties in Britain.
In France, I'm sure you're aware, France has, after the United States and Israel, the largest Jewish population in the world.
And many of them are prominent in business, and many of them are prominent in government.
And, you know, this is not to say that all of them necessarily line up behind Israel, but enough of them do to create some kind of consensus.
For example, when I discussed France in my article, I mentioned that France has probably the least free right to speech in Europe.
And they have hate crimes that are rigorously enforced, but the hate crimes themselves are generally only enforced when someone is saying something about Jews.
Charlie Hebdo, for example, constantly lampoons Muslims and Christians, but is very light in terms of lampooning Jews because it knows it would get in trouble.
So, you know, it creates this kind of no sense of we don't want to criticize Israel because it just ain't worth it.
And that's pervasive.
Yeah, well, yeah, and that's a really good way to put it, too, is that it's just, it's enough dissuasion to, why bother?
And, you know, it's important to note, and I know it's so stupid that I usually don't even address it.
It should just go without saying, this isn't about anti-Semitism at all.
Phil Giraldi's not anti-Semitic, and neither am I.
And that's really not what it's about.
You look at all the, not all, many of the best leaders of the anti-war movement and people helping with BDS and all the rest of it are Jewish.
And so, you know, as he was saying, it's not a matter of even saying, oh, yeah, no, they all agree about everything or anything.
Just enough do to create a consensus to keep the national governments of these countries in lockstep, basically behind Israel's position.
And another thing, and again, this is stupid, and it should just go without saying, but I want to bring it up, is that we're not just talking about Israel being Israel.
It's a question of the ongoing occupation of the millions of Palestinians in the West Bank, East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, and, you know, others, too.
And so that's the thing of it, is the crime that America continues to push.
And that's not to say the Nakba's okay and 48 borders or 67 borders are perfect or something like that, but at least what we're fighting, what is being fought over here is the occupation, not the very existence of a home for, you know, refugee European Jews after the Holocaust or something like that.
Yeah, I mean, it's absolutely true that, you know, Europeans and Americans and most of the world, even in the Arab world now, accepts the existence of Israel.
This is not the question.
The question is, what are the other things that come with these hard right-wing governments that Israel has that impact, in fact, on, like, the United States and United States policy or British policy or French policy?
This kind of stuff should be unacceptable.
And because nobody wants to take it on because it's just too painful, they tend to get a pass.
And this, of course, is changing.
I mean, you and I couldn't have had this conversation probably even five years ago.
Well, you and I could, but...
Yeah, we might have.
Yeah, we probably did.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, but the fact is that, you know, it's in the mainstream now.
And so, anyway, we need kind of a reassessment of what this all means and what it means in terms of how countries should interreact and what kind of dependency relationships there are between countries.
Because the United States is alternately either a patsy towards some other countries and towards other countries it's a monster.
And we can't quite seem to get it quite right.
Well, and, you know, this is the thing, too.
I mean, you know that it really is changing.
And I think, well, I don't know if you saw that Thomas Friedman finally came out and said, It's too late.
It's over.
Now, that is a radical position in some circles.
And yet here Tom Friedman is saying, shrug.
You know what?
It is one state.
And, you know, obviously it's Tom Friedman, so it's not like he's perfect on it or whatever.
But that's a big bellwether of American liberal Jews especially having to break with Zionism.
Because, I mean, they just couldn't support Jim Crow in Alabama.
How the hell are they going to support him in the West Bank?
It ain't right.
Yeah, that's exactly true.
You know, even if you don't care about the ethical issues, there's just, you know, you can say, Look, the ethical issues have an impact.
They have an impact on how other countries perceive the United States and how other countries perceive Israel.
And nobody really wants the status quo or should want the status quo.
The status quo is basically something that might have gotten a pass in the 19th century, but it just doesn't work anymore.
And, you know, I think just, you know, we've got to get away from the pointing fingers in kind of a, you know, he's a Jew and the Jews support Israel.
It's not that way.
It's a question of people who support Israel support Israel for a lot of motives, which probably are complex.
But at the same time, they have to realize that there are consequences to doing so.
Yeah, there you go.
Well, and, you know, I want to get back to the mechanics of this, too, where, you know, I'm always reminded, so many things remind me of this article from 2014, I think it was, Phil, where they said, oh, no, no, it was earlier than that, 2011 or something.
And they said, oh, my God, Lockheed has spent $14 million on lobbying in the first quarter of 2011.
And I just laughed and probably spit coffee out my nose at $14 measly million.
And that's enough for a few steak dinners and Coke and horse for a few congressmen, enough to buy billions out of the Treasury, literally billions.
And it seems like if you take that kind of analogy or metaphor or whatever, and you look at it from the point of view of the Israeli government of how much time and effort their foreign ministry and intelligence agencies have to spend on influencing Western governments, it's a pittance compared to what they're getting in return.
And it's just, you know, they're not going to stop.
They have no reason to stop.
They just have to be countered by overwhelming amounts of better arguments or something.
Because it would be like asking Lockheed to not put a measly .0001% remainder of their profit margin into buy more congressmen for next year.
Yeah, I mean, as long as Israel knows the math is on their side, that spending a smallish amount of money to get a huge amount of money in return, they're going to keep doing it.
And that's another good reason to support the Ron Paul line that, you know, people shouldn't get foreign aid.
Foreign aid corrupts how countries interreact.
And it's a bad thing all around.
I also wanted to mention, you know, what you mentioned there, too, about Israel's true interests.
I think, you know, when I read liberal former Zionists mostly, they're so frustrated because they're stuck with the counterfactual of what they think Israel could be if the government would just make peace and give up the West Bank and let the Palestinians be independent.
They have a dream of a beautiful Israel that they want to love and this and that, and it's being thrown away by the equivalent of the very dumbest ass Republicans who run their government over there, who are running their country into the ground, turning it into South Africa.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
I mean, it's incredible.
I mean, you know, I have plenty of Jewish friends and they tend to be liberal and they tend to be very sort of, they reminisce about the Civil Rights Movement and all that sort of thing, and they are really perplexed by what is happening in Israel.
Yeah.
Well, and, you know, it just seems like it's pretty easy.
You and I, when we talk about these issues, we say, okay, well, let's try to look at it from China's point of view.
Let's try to look at it from Turkey's point of view.
Let's try to look at it from the Israelis' point of view.
You want to have a country that lasts for hundreds and hundreds of years into the indefinite future, or do you want to be bankrupt and out of business because of your apartheid situation that the rest of mankind simply will not tolerate before the next centuries, you know, or even maybe a few more decades from now?
Yeah, absolutely.
It's just ridiculous.
Yeah.
Anyway, I'm sorry.
I kept you away every time, Phil.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Yeah, I just sent you an article on Turkey, which you'll find interesting.
Okay, yeah, I see that.
I see that in the email.
I will check it out here.
I still have a couple minutes in the break before we bring Joe on.
Thanks very much for coming back on the show, Phil.
Appreciate it, man.
Yeah, and say hi to Joe.
I definitely will.
Okay.
All right, you guys.
That is the great Phil Girali.
He is, yes, it's true, he's a former CIA and DIA officer, but he's great.
He's at unz.com, U-N-Z, unz.com, the American conservative, and we didn't get to talk about this one, but read it.
The Pentagon Fights Back, and very nuanced, very important article, and he's also at the Council for the National Interest at councilforthenationalinterest.org.
Hey, Al, Scott Horton here to tell you about this great new book by Michael Swanson, The War State.
In The War State, Swanson examines how Presidents Truman, Eisenhower, and Kennedy both expanded and fought to limit the rise of the new national security state after World War II.
If this nation is ever to live up to its creed of liberty and prosperity for everyone, we are going to have to abolish the empire.
Know your enemy.
Get The War State by Michael Swanson.
It's available at your local bookstore or at Amazon.com in Kindle or in paperback.
Just click the book in the right margin at ScottHorton.org or TheWarState.com.
Hey, Al, check out the audiobook of Lew Rockwell's Fascism vs.
Capitalism, narrated by me, Scott Horton, at Audible.com.
It's a great collection of his essays and speeches on the important tradition of liberty.
From medieval history to the Ron Paul Revolution, Rockwell blasts our status enemies, profiles our greatest libertarian heroes, and prescribes the path forward in the battle against Leviathan.
Fascism vs.
Capitalism by Lew Rockwell for audiobook.
Find it at Audible, Amazon, iTunes, or just click in the right margin on my website at ScottHorton.org.
Hey, Al Scott here.
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