01/21/16 – David Vine – The Scott Horton Show

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All right, you guys, welcome back.
I'm Scott.
It's my show, The Scalhorten Show, here, scalhorten.org for the archives and the podcast feeds and the chat room and all that stuff.
All right, today's guest is David Vine.
He is the author of Base Nation, How U.S. Military Bases Abroad Harm America and the World.
It's an island of shame about America and Britain's war against the poor civilian population of Diego Garcia.
Welcome back to the show.
How are you doing, David?
Thanks so much, Scott.
It's great to be with you.
Good to have you on here.
And I was explaining to the people earlier that, I guess, basically the way I see it, after Chalmers Johnson died, you and Nick Turse both kind of took up the chore of keeping track of America's empire of military bases around the world.
I mean, you know, the Pentagon puts the reports out themselves.
I don't know of any other journalists who make it their business to make sure that we have current, you know, figures on all this stuff and a good understanding of what it all means.
And so it's very important work, and I really appreciate it.
And I was also telling the audience before that in the book about the Chagossians, about Diego Garcia, that there's at least one full chapter on the empire bases as well.
It's just as good as anything Johnson ever wrote on it, as far as explaining, describing the totality of it and everything.
So wonderful stuff there.
Really appreciate it.
That is too kind of you.
And I don't know about it being better than Chalmers Johnson's work, but it's true there.
Well, I didn't say better.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know about even putting it in the same ballpark as Chalmers Johnson's work.
I'm not saying, you know, it is that chapter is nemesis, but I'm saying as far as the description of what it is that we're dealing with here.
Yeah.
You know what it is.
You're doing.
Thank you.
OK, so here we go.
Doubling down on a failed strategy.
The Pentagon's dangerous new base plan.
And this is, I think, maybe goes to show a slight rift between the president and the military.
Maybe not, but at least he likes to talk a lot about, you know, how much he's learned from Robert Pape without ever naming him and saying, you know, I want to kill everybody with air power from now on.
But and, you know, obviously special forces.
But we don't want land armies and big bases because that's what got us in trouble.
We got all these aircraft carriers.
Why do we need military bases to, you know, cause us blowback?
And yet his government right now is embarking on an entirely brand new project to as though they'd never started before, to now expand a ring of bases around the Middle East so that they can wage war against the Islamic State.
That is only the spawn of their last four interventions there.
Yeah.
You know, one of the main points of the Time Dispatch article is that that there's very little that's new about this strategy.
I don't really know what President Obama's own thoughts or feelings or ideas about about bases are.
But, you know, I think, again, this is a seems to be an example of where the Pentagon, you know, basically creates foreign policy for the government as a whole and the State Department.
And then often, though, the White House itself has little say de facto in setting foreign policy.
And this is actually a foreign policy that goes back to very at least to President Carter and his enunciation of the Carter doctrine that the United States would intervene militarily or do anything necessary to ensure the flow of oil in the Middle East.
And that began a huge buildup of bases in and around the Middle East that is basically continued to this day.
And now the Pentagon seems to want to entrench that that network of bases and a network that's grown more robust since the beginning of the wars in 2001.
And you know, I and others see this as a really, again, a dangerous development that where we should be closing bases in the region that often have been counterproductive rather than entrenching them further.
Well, I mean, it just goes to show real failure of leadership on the president's part where he has got to get his speechwriters in touch with the guys at the Pentagon because there's this massive disconnect between what he say and what he do.
And I don't mean to give him the benefit of the doubt or anything other than the fact that he seems intelligent, not well-meaning, but he does seem intelligent enough to understand.
I know Robert Pape has at least talked to people who have talked to him and he does say things from time to time that, you know, imply that he knows better than doing all the things that he turns around and continues to do anyway.
That's all I was really trying to say.
So now describe these bases, because in 2008, the Maliki government, the United Iraqi Alliance government that the U.S. put in power, told George Bush, thanks a lot, now beat it.
And he didn't get his 56 bases.
I guess maybe he's got a few now.
How many of these bases are in Iraq?
The new generation?
So yeah, the Iraqi parliament was quite bold in rejecting the Bush administration's and the Pentagon's desires to keep a large number of bases in Iraq after the formal end of U.S. combat operations there.
But in the past year, year and a half, since the sort of ISIS phase of this long running war has picked up, the Pentagon now has about, military now has about six bases in Iraq.
Of course, there's a lot that we don't know because they're not advertising a lot of it and things aren't transparent in any part of the base world.
Meanwhile, we also have some, at very least, nine bases in Afghanistan, and again, despite, you know, some pull out of most U.S. troops, and the plan is to seem to keep at least some of these bases very much in place.
And I guess that the desire on the part of the military is to, at very least, maintain access to as many bases as it can, while they are now talking about creating several hubs in the region, with at least one base, at least pointed to in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as other bases in Djibouti and smaller, what they're calling spokes, in this supposedly new system in places like Cameroon and other parts of Africa.
By the way, so the camp in Djibouti, Camp Lemonnier, or however you say it there, now I've read, and I forget now, I'm sorry if it's in your article or not, it's been a week or so since I read this, but it's been talked about how the Chinese are putting a base there in Djibouti, and it's such a tiny little country, I wonder, it's the same kind of thing they had in Tajikistan there for a while, where the Americans and the Russians both had military bases just maybe a horizon or two away from each other, something like that.
And I just wonder, Djibouti's not kicking the U.S. out, are they, or are they?
In favor of China, or they're just gonna do a Tajikistan-style thing there for a while?
Yeah, there's no sign of that.
No, Djibouti is becoming something of a real home for foreign military bases.
There's been a...
This is the Horn of Africa, for the audience here, sorry, this is the Horn of Africa in the east, on the equator there, right at the gate of the Red Sea.
Exactly, and that's the key, that it's at a strategic, sort of what's known as a chokehold in sea lanes, where there's just a very small sea lane through which billions of dollars of oil and other commerce flows through.
So whoever controls this sea lane controls much of the global political economy, in some ways, or a significant part of it.
So there's been a French base, the French colony Djibouti was, there's been a French base there for decades, as far as I know, and the U.S. military been occupying Camp Lemonnier shortly after the attacks of 9-11, very early in 2002.
But since then, we've actually seen Japan creating its first foreign military base since World War II in Djibouti, and the French presence remains, and then now China appears to have signed an agreement to establish some sort of military presence in Djibouti, so we form this very small country.
David, you're cutting out on us a little there, and we're going to break anyway, so we'll pick it up on the other side of this break with David Vine, writing at TomDispatch.com.
Enduring bases, enduring war in the Middle East.
It's also on AntiWar.com as well, under Tom Englehart's name.
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All right, you guys, welcome back.
I'm Scott Horton.
It's my show, Scott Horton Show.
I'm talking with David Vine.
He's the author of the new book, Base Nation, How U.S. Military Bases Abroad Harm America and the World.
I need to get a copy of that thing.
So we're talking, I guess, mostly here about the Middle East and the Africa pivot, as Nick Terse has covered so well.
But I was wondering if we could focus here on West Africa and the consequences of the spread of the Libya War down into Mali, and then the hookup there of, I guess, AQIM and whatever other groups with Boko Haram, and the worsening of their movement there.
Even on AntiWar.com, where, hey, we do our best, but it was just a headline for a day or maybe two that, hey, Obama invades Cameroon.
I mean, he was invited, supposedly, quote, unquote, invited by the government there.
Not an invasion, but Obama sends troops to Cameroon.
We already got drone bases, I think, in Niger and in Chad.
What more can you tell us about the U.S. Army, Special Forces, CIA, spies, whatever else is going on in West Africa there?
Yeah, there's a growing U.S. military presence, and certainly other government entities, including the CIA, have a presence.
But the military in particular has been building up its presence in Africa since, again, around 2002.
Nick Terse, indeed, has done the best work to document this, and according to his reporting, the U.S. has more than 60 bases or access points around the continent.
For years they've been insisting, no, we only have one base in Djibouti, as we were discussing.
But recently they've started acknowledging the presence of mostly small U.S. bases, but these are, you know, drone bases or special operations bases, sometimes just military contractors, U.S. military contractors who are running the bases.
But it's a growing U.S. military presence of taking a variety of forms from countries you mentioned, Cameroon being one of the most recent, but also Niger, Burkina Faso, where of course there was some horrific violence recently, Kenya, Ethiopia, really east-south, east-north-south.
And it's, again, troubling because the track record of the Africa Command has been very poor, and U.S. military's own reports have suggested as much.
The Pentagon Inspector General has found that their humanitarian operations, so much of the increasing presence has been justified on the basis of humanitarianism, that they're just there to help people and run, you know, dental clinics and paint schools.
But the Pentagon's own Inspector General has said that the humanitarian activities have been really disastrous, or really have been ineffective and uncoordinated.
So at the same time, research has shown that the presence in Africa has been counterproductive in many cases, because U.S. presence tends to encourage some to take up arms against the United States and against sometimes local governments.
One case that's been described as the U.S. troop presence in Africa has backfired, and this was an article published in Military Review that it's been a boomed insurgent group.
Well, you have to remember when it comes to the military especially, but really all government, counterproductive and productive are the same thing, right?
Like Dr. Nick, who knew that inflammable meant flammable?
It's the same kind of deal there where, oh, good, they failed and they created a disaster and they spread war from Libya down through the whole west coast of the continent, great.
Now we can put in a base here, some bases there.
Let me ask you this, in Sierra Leone, when they sent the troops there to fight Ebola, and then, so now Ebola's gone, but did the troops stay or did they all come home?
Tell me how many actually came home, what percentage of them came home and what percent stayed?
I don't know the exact percentages, but it was used as an opportunity to increase the U.S. presence in West Africa.
There is now a larger presence in Senegal, for example, where they created what's described as an intermediate-sized base.
And it looks, from time I looked into it, there is a presence that has remained in Sierra Leone.
As far as I know, it's relatively small, but any deployment, including for training exercises, to build access and to lay the foundation, both literal and figurative, for larger U.S. military presence to return.
And now when it comes to these little bitty bases scattered throughout sub-Saharan Africa and so forth, what exactly is the point of them?
Is it just to keep their government and our government on friendly terms for whatever future economic deals?
Because it doesn't sound like it makes much of a difference to the U.S. militarily to have troops in Uganda or something, right?
I think there are multiple aims, and some of it, I think, is political, some of it's economic, some of it's military.
For example, in East Africa, some of the troops have been going after Joseph Kony, but that search has been going on for years now, and so it's unclear what that's accomplished.
Although it does appear that his operating zone, at very least, and the damage he's done has decreased in size.
Yeah, so even a small presence can lead to a much larger presence.
Generally called the lily pad bases, part of the aim is creating a base that can be easily and quickly expanded, so larger numbers of U.S. troops can show up on the scene.
But I think you're right, at the same time, there are political and economic dimensions to this buildup, where creating a larger military presence allows the United States to keep governments within an alliance structure that has political and economic aims.
So I think we have to look at all these dimensions at the same time.
I think the most important, most helpful way to look at it is, you know, China has been increasing its presence and influence in Africa for a decade or so now, but mostly it's been doing it through economic investments in countries around the continent.
The U.S. has been pursuing a similar strategy, but has been doing so with military investments, and building military ties with national militaries.
Really, China signing the agreement with Djibouti is the first sign that we have that significant Chinese military presence might be appearing on the continent of Africa.
Now, I think it's an important point that you make here, that even, I mean, this is my words, not yours, but you say we're effectively helping to block the spread of democracy, which is, I think, a really great way to put it, because you don't have to necessarily imply that the Americans are saying, oh, good, we want to back this dictator, because we like him so much, and we want him to be the dictator of this particular sub-Saharan African country.
They don't necessarily need to be that premeditated about it at all.
It's just a matter of hooking up with this government, and training up its army, and, you know, giving it weapons, and American welfare, and whatever, in effect, is crowding out domestic politics, and the ability of the people in whatever small developing country to control their own processes of who's in charge over there.
And so, even if it's not deliberate, we are, quote, effectively helping to block the spread of self-government in these countries.
I think that's right, and here we can look from Africa, or move from Africa into the Middle East, where, you know, nearly every country is undemocratic to one degree or another, and we have very large bases, much larger than most African countries throughout the Persian Gulf, with the exception of Yemen and Iran.
There are bases in every Persian Gulf country, and de facto, these bases are helping to prop up and support these undemocratic regimes, and frequently, undemocratic rulers will trumpet the presence of the U.S., and you can imagine if, you know, if you were a pro-democracy activist in one of these countries, what are you to think if, you know, the undemocratic regime is hosting the U.S. military?
Clearly, we are on the wrong side, and not helping to spread democracy around the world as so often is claimed when people justify the presence of U.S. bases around the world.
And by the way, I should say, I wasn't trying to spin for him, I think most of the time it is that premeditated, that, you know, we love this dictator, and love foisting him on the people of whatever country, and they'll just have to like it or lump it.
But I was just trying to point out that even if, you know, they've never heard of the country they're training the army of in sub-Saharan Africa somewhere, it's still going to be the effect, no matter what.
But yeah, I mean, when you look at, as you're saying, the countries of the Middle East, like Bahrain comes to mind, you mentioned in here, where in 2011, America was in the middle of overthrowing Gaddafi in Libya, but helping the Saudi kingdom prop up the Bahrainian kingdom, and I believe it was David Gregory asked Admiral Mullen on Meet the Press, but hey, I don't get it, or maybe it was Chuck Todd, anyway, he says, I don't get it though, because we're helping the little guy overthrow the dictator in Libya, but we're helping back the kingdom in Bahrain, what's the difference?
And Mullen says, well, the king of Bahrain is our ally.
And it was just as simple as that.
That's where we base our fifth fleet.
So, in other words, if he has to kill every last Shia who demands the slightest modicum of representation in his government, and we don't give a damn about that, he couldn't have been more cold about it, you know?
Hey, they do what we say.
Yeah, and that's the very sad thing, that our taxpayer dollars, our political weight is backing this sort of repression that we saw in Bahrain, and, you know, of course, we're continuing to back Saudi Arabia and its activities in its war in Yemen, that has by a growing number of accounts, taken a very large number of civilian lives and led to a humanitarian catastrophe there.
So, the basing presence in and around the Middle East has really led to some horrific consequences, most of all in the general state of war that's spreading around the region that can be tied fairly directly to the U.S. military presence that has enabled and waged a succession of wars now since 1980.
All right, so that's the great David Vine.
He wrote Island of Shame about the U.S. military base slash torture prison down there at Diego Garcia and the displacement of the people there.
And his latest is Base Nation, how U.S. military bases abroad harm America and the world.
And, I'm sorry, I didn't ask you, what's the total number right now?
Do you have it?
Yeah, it's around 800.
We'll never know for sure.
Right.
Okay, good deal.
Thanks very much again, David.
Really appreciate it.
Thank you, Scott.
Great to talk to you.
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