12/10/15 – Jeffrey Scott Shapiro – The Scott Horton Show

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Alright, you guys.
Welcome back to the show here.
I don't know why my mic's so hot today.
I'm Scott Horton.
It's my show, The Scott Horton Show.
Alright, up next is Jeffrey Scott Shapiro from The Washington Times.
And now, you might remember, we interviewed his co-author, Kelly Riddell, on the show here in February.
After the two of them, together as co-authors, put out this four or maybe five or six-part series, I guess, ultimately, about the real goings-on behind the Libya war.
And in fact, because I brought up that series on the Jason Stapleton program last week, there's a very current blog entry on my blog right now at scotthorton.org.
It has links to all of those articles and, thankfully, the printer versions, too.
So, go and check that out.
It'll blow your mind.
The great journalism there about the start of the 2011 Libya war.
But anyway, this one is about the Oklahoma City bombing.
Welcome to the show.
How are you doing, Jeffrey?
Good.
How are you?
I'm doing real good.
Sorry for the real long introduction, but I had to give you credit for that because, yeah, you're going down in history right there, pal, with that one.
Thank you.
Okay, now, so the Oklahoma City bombing, it was 20 years ago.
A lot of people are young, they don't really know, but it was April 19, 1995.
A massive truck bomb, we'll leave it at that for the sake of this argument anyway, went off in front of the Oklahoma City Federal Building, the Alfred P. Murrah Building.
Killed 168 people.
Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, a couple of Nazis, pseudo-militia guys, were convicted.
McVeigh was executed.
Nichols was convicted in federal and state court and is doing life in prison right now, I believe, in Oklahoma.
And there are 10 million little factoids and trails and interesting things about this story, and one of them has always been the extra leg.
Was it an extra victim?
Was it an extra perpetrator?
Does anybody know?
Can anybody ever know?
And I have to admit, as much as I've tried to pay attention to this story for the last 20 years, Jeffrey, I kind of thought that this one was resolved, and that it ended up that they had decided it was a victim that they hadn't previously identified.
But I guess that really wasn't right, huh?
At this point, no one knows.
What we did know before is that this unmatched left leg, which does seem to suggest there were at least 169 people who were killed by the blast, whereas now we only have records of 168 with identities, that they couldn't get any DNA from that left leg.
And it turns out that for the past 18 years, since 1997, the Oklahoma Medical Examiner did in fact have DNA results because DNA was able to be extracted from the P-71 leg by a private lab called LabCorp.
And through our investigative work, we found out that the Oklahoma County District Attorney that prosecuted Terry Nichols West Lane and the FBI did not know about these results, which means that DNA has probably never been run through the National DNA Database.
Wait, am I hearing you right that, wait, none of the cops were informed?
Nobody covered it up?
It was just LabCorp did the test but never handed the results over to the cops?
Did I hear that right?
So the results were returned to the Medical Examiner's office, and I think at that time they were using the DNA to try to figure out if it had belonged to one of 10 people.
Because if you remember originally when the blast occurred, there were 10 people it started out with who seemed to be missing a left leg or they couldn't match a left leg with.
Now over time, they were able to match nine of those left legs with people that are part of the 168.
But there was this one left leg that was left over.
And I think they originally used that DNA result to try to confirm or deny whether or not any of the people they suspected those legs matched up to were the right person.
Once they accomplished that, somehow something fell through the cracks and the Medical Examiner or someone in that office, someone in Oklahoma did not inform authorities above them or take this DNA to the next level.
Obviously, that DNA should have been reported to the FBI since they were the agency in charge of this federal investigation.
And you're certain that the FBI never knew about this?
I feel very confident from my conversations with them that they didn't, and I'll tell you why.
One of Mr. Nickel's lawyers, Jesse Trentadue, had filed the Freedom of Information Act recently trying to get them to reveal information about whether or not there was DNA results for P-71.
And they came back saying that there wasn't.
We initially thought that was some kind of cover-up once we found out from Oklahoma officials that there were DNA results.
But it turned out from a series of conversations, and I'm talking a lot of conversations I've had with a number of different government agencies, I think the FBI was sincerely surprised, if not shocked, when they found out that this DNA existed.
They were very concerned that they were never told about it.
All right.
And now, so, what's next?
Well, based on our conversations with the FBI, they told us they are going to obtain the DNA results, and they're going to make a determination of what to do next.
Now, from what I'm hearing, it sounds like that means they may be temporarily reopening the investigation.
And I would think there's probably a good possibility they're going to run that DNA through the national database system.
Now, obviously, if that comes back as a match to someone who has a criminal record, someone who was known to associate, or we find out, associated with the white supremacist underground in the United States, you're taking the Oklahoma City conspiracy to a whole new level.
It means this wasn't an isolated incident committed by just a few individuals.
It means that the other theories, that Timothy McVeigh was connected to an organization such as the Aryan Republican Army, or the Order, could be true.
And that changes everything.
Well, and, you know, by the way, it seems, I don't know if likely, but at least possible, that a bunch of ARA Nazis would actually have their DNA on file, since they're all arrested for bank robbery and, you know, whatever other crimes, all through that time.
And they were collecting DNA from felony arrestees, violent felony arrestees, back in the 1990s, right?
I believe so.
And you have to remember, it could be someone that we don't know right off the bat was involved in the white supremacist movement.
A lot of these guys have criminal records, as we all know.
It could be for something as slight as a disorderly conduct.
You run that DNA through the system, you find out who the person is, and you go back, and you start to investigate their life.
If you find out that person had any kind of white supremacist views or tithes, like I said, you really have to reopen that entire investigation.
I mean, what if we found out tomorrow that the people we thought that were involved in 9-11, that there were other co-conspirators still in the United States, people who had trained them, people who had helped facilitate those flight reservations?
You would want to reopen that investigation.
This wouldn't be any different.
This is the biggest, single most significant domestic terrorist attack in the history of the United States.
Well, and of course, for 20 years, people have been screaming to reopen the investigation.
Even did get a state grand jury at one point to reopen it.
And of course, all along, accusing the Nazis at Elohim City, the Aryan Republican Army, and what's his name with the brown pickup truck out in Arizona, the gold miner, and all of J.D. Cash's work and the work of Roger Charles, who you quote here.
And in fact, geez, there's a BBC special.
I have some of the audio from it, where Danny Colson, one of the FBI investigators, is calling for a new investigation.
Because he says he thinks that there is enough to these accusations about Andrei Strassmayer and the Nazis that it really ought to be reopened.
The victims' families, the Wilburns and others, screaming for a generation in a row now for this to happen.
So you really think that maybe this will do it, huh?
I think that it could.
I mean, you know, when you look back at what happened, right?
I mean, the way that they carried out this attack by loading bombs into a Ryder moving truck and placing it at the base of the government building they wanted to detonate, this is almost a mirror image of what the Sheikh did back in 1993 with the First World Trade Center bombing.
There's a lot of people who believe that's not a coincidence.
And chances are, if it's not a coincidence, that means that they had assistance and training and other co-conspirators and accomplices involved.
I would caution you that I think there's a lot of red herrings about the involvement of Arabs in this thing.
It was clearly a cover-up.
And if you read Roger Charles' book with Andrew Gumbel, clearly they covered it up because the Nazis, who were McVeigh's friends, were all flip states witnesses and government informants and guys who had a previous relationship with these cops.
And all this stuff about trying to accuse Al-Qaeda is really the Laurie Milroy pretend theory that Al-Qaeda was a front for Saddam Hussein and all that AEI nonsense from the 1990s.
Well, I don't think we necessarily know who these co-conspirators could be, and I'm not saying it's anyone in particular.
I'm just saying the fact that they used such similar techniques, I just have a suspicion that that wasn't something that they came up with on their own.
When you look at Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols and Michael Fortier and who these guys were, McVeigh was very determined, there's no question about that.
He was a very confident, very highly decorated soldier.
But I still don't feel very comfortable assuming that he came up with all of this on his own strategically.
I really agree with you about that.
And I'm sorry, we're into the break here.
Can you hang on with me another segment or you got to go?
Sure, that's fine.
Okay, great.
Hang on just a minute.
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All right, you guys, welcome back.
Anyway, yeah, welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton talking with Jeffrey Scott Shapiro, reporter for The Washington Times, about this very important revelation about the Oklahoma City bombing.
It turns out that they did.
They were able to do a DNA test and they did, in fact, do a successful DNA test of the extra leg of the extra victim or extra perpetrator in the Oklahoma City bombing here.
And I guess the interesting wrinkle in the story here is that because it's something that, as Jeffrey was explaining, is pretty clear.
The FBI themselves didn't cover this up.
They didn't know about it that because of something they didn't know about.
Maybe this is the kind of thing coming from below that could result in the reopening of the investigation.
And I guess that's my question for you, because I don't understand the legalities here is if they decide, OK, they want to move forward with comparing this DNA with other DNA.
Does that have to be done in the context of reopening the investigation?
Quote, unquote, because that's what we really want is to say, you know, let's let's start peeling layers of this onion, get this thing going, you know, leg or no leg.
Right.
That's a good question.
That's something that I'm trying to find out.
I know that one person we spoke to phrased it that way, that they may temporarily reopen the investigation to conduct tests, usually when they want to have tests done.
The agent in charge of that investigation has to request that the lab run a new test.
And so in this case, I think what would have to happen and what I think has happened is that the special agent in charge or the last person who headed up the investigation out of Oklahoma City would have to request that the FBI lab run that test.
So in effect, does that actually mean the case had been reopened?
A good question in terms of terminology.
But I think it will depend on whether or not they get any results or what they want to do with that DNA once they have it.
I can't imagine, like I said, they're not going to run it at least through their databases.
Yeah.
Well, I wonder what they're going to do if it comes up with, you know, Mark Thomas or Michael Brescia.
No, I guess all those guys lived.
Some other Nazi that we haven't heard of yet.
Although, you know what, I got to tell you, and this is valueless, but anyway, my gut is that this is a victim that we didn't know about who was walking by rather than someone else who was in on it.
Because it seemed like, you know, all the Nazis who were ever accused of being in on it or or even tangentially, you know, associated with, they were all accounted for in other circumstances.
So, but I don't know.
My guess is if it was an accomplice, I honestly think it's someone whose name we've never heard.
You know, a lot of the people who were involved in this, you know, were not the higher ups in these organizations.
I mean, no one ever would have known who McVeigh, Nichols or Fortier were if they hadn't done this.
You know, they were lower level guys.
And, you know, if it is a victim, you have to remember, it would probably have to be someone who is homeless because no one has been reported missing in reference to this case.
So it has to be someone completely disconnected, a homeless person who was maybe down by the federal building that morning.
That's really the only possibility.
It could be someone who was out of town passing through.
Nobody knew where they disappeared from, you know, by the time they were reported gone or I don't know.
But, yeah, it could be.
Plenty of bums in Oklahoma City, I'm sure.
Yeah.
So, yeah, very interesting thing there.
And, you know, I'd like to bring up just for the sake of getting, you know, as long as people are listening to this story that the book by Andrew Gumbel and Roger Charles is a very conservative piece of journalism.
This is not wild conspiracy theory stuff whatsoever.
And they went and interviewed the federal prosecutors and the federal prosecutors told Andrew Gumbel that, yeah, basically we didn't want to jeopardize a death penalty conviction of McVeigh by pursuing other suspects.
Because then, you know, his lawyers would use that to create reasonable doubt as to whether he was executable or not.
And we had a basically they had a PR operation to accomplish that this son of a bitch is going to pay.
The one they caught right away, the one that looks so mean in the mugshot on TV and all of that, who apparently was John Doe one from the sketch.
And they'll just keep it nice and tidy.
But they admit it.
They admit it in no uncertain terms that this is what they decided they would do is let the other guilty go free if there were any other and they didn't want to know.
It's amazing.
You know, I mean, and also, you know, one of the things that Roger Charles talked to me about was how the FBI was concerned that if they continued to press their investigation, it could have exposed this very complicated, intricate network of confidential informants that they had placed strategically in the white supremacist world.
And that was something that they didn't want to happen.
Because, as we know, the FBI is very, very cautious about ever jeopardizing any other CIA.
They don't want there to ever be the impression that a CIA would compromise.
Then, of course, it's much harder to get other people recruited as confidential informants.
So, understandably, they had taken a lot of time to try to place these people in that world, which, of course, is something we want to make sure we know what these guys are up to.
They're not going to hurt anyone.
But if they did it at a risk where they didn't pursue other leads, obviously, that's very problematic and very concerning.
Yep.
Well, you know, part of the problem here is that there's been a lot of great reporting about this story for the last 20 years, including in The Washington Times and in the AP and everywhere else, here, there, and the other place.
But there are very few very authoritative works on it, and it never seems to really catch on.
There are all these huge threads, like all the different video cameras and the footage and the FBI being sued by Jesse Trinidad and losing over and over again to the point where they're fixing to have to let him go and dig through and look for the tapes himself because the judge is so fed up with the FBI's obfuscation on the matter and this kind of thing.
And that's a news story.
Let's see that footage.
Let's see who John Doe II is, or let's see if there even is one or not in the grainy black and white.
But let's see it.
Twenty-four cameras adjacent to that building, and we haven't seen anything but a still shot of the Ryder truck from the same side of the street as the building but down the street where, for whatever reason, they stopped for a moment.
Red light or something.
Right.
Right.
But, you know, I don't know.
Hey, Jeffrey, there's a book in this for you, maybe.
Sounds like you picked up a really important strand of this story.
You clearly understand the whole thing.
Well, you know, I read the whole the whole piece here in The Times.
And, you know, I'm really grateful to see this kind of thing in The Washington Times.
And I hope it takes off because and I always thought this as unfair as I think this is, that the American people don't get to know the full truth about what happened there.
Think about the families and all the people who somebody got killed and somebody got away with killing them in that fashion.
Our government would let anyone, even a single person, who was involved in that skate for whatever reason, if it was someone in my family, I don't think I'd want to hear it, what their reason was.
It wouldn't be good enough for me.
You know, so.
Right.
Sure.
Certainly worth pursuing there.
And anyway, I'm sorry.
I'm just beating you over the head now, but I just it's so damn important.
And I'm just really grateful for you covering it.
That's all.
Well, I appreciate it.
I mean, I think it was an important story and I think it does sort of reveal some of the problems that we have.
You know, I was on the John Bennett Ramsey murder case for a long time.
My role became so prevalent when people wrote books on it was because even though I was a young tabloid reporter at the time, I was the only person who was actually connecting or passing messages back and forth between the district attorney's office and the police department.
They were so contentious with one another.
They had literally the police that just moved themselves back out of a war room, the DA's office.
And it was almost like they had all communication for a while.
And you can imagine what that did to the investigation.
Of course, in this case, you had a lot of contention between Oklahoma state officials and the FBI.
Just goes to show you when these agencies don't coordinate, when they don't work together and they let personality differences get in the way, something can fall through the cracks.
And in this case, something really important fell through.
Yeah.
Well, and, you know, you quote Bob Ricks in here saying, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Don't worry about it.
He was the same guy who was the spokesman for the FBI during the Waco massacre and then was in charge of the Tulsa office during Oklahoma City.
And he was the guy, according to J.D. Cash's journalism and Ambrose Evans Pritchard in from the London Telegraph in his book, The Secret Life of Bill Clinton.
It was Ricks who called off the ATF, who pulled rank and told the ATF to back off Oklahoma City, where their informant, Carol Howe, was reporting that there was this terrorist ring of guys who wanted to blow up the Oklahoma City federal building.
And he said, we'll handle it and you guys back off.
Same Bob Ricks who's issuing nothing but denials to you.
Well, and it definitely seems that the line that the FBI is towing is that they still feel very confident that they did everything to find all the proper leads and that, you know, they know who all the victims are and who all the suspects are.
But, I mean, let's face it.
I mean, you know, if you have 168 people and they have both legs and you've got another leg, there has to be at least another victim and there could be another accomplice.
I mean, that's just simple mathematics.
Absolutely.
Must be pursued.
Yep.
You got it.
All right.
Well, thanks so much for coming on the show.
I really appreciate it.
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
All right, y'all.
That is Jeffrey Scott Shapiro writes for The Washington Times.
This one is called Oklahoma City Bombing Secret.
DNA extracted from unknown leg.
We find out almost 20 years later from December the 7th at The Washington Times.
Click the printed version.
It's easy on your browser there.
See y'all tomorrow.
Thanks very much for listening.
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