12/09/15 – Jon B. Carroll – The Scott Horton Show

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All right, y'all, welcome back.
I'm Scott.
This is my show.
Our guest today is John B. Carroll.
Writing at the Henry County Report.
HenryCountyReport.com.
And this article, man, it's really something.
You've got to look at this.
Help make it viral.
I think it already is, but there you go.
Leaked documents reveal Dothan Police planted drugs on young black men for years.
District Attorney Doug Velasca complicit.
Welcome to the show.
How are you doing, John?
Hey, how are you doing?
Thanks for inviting me.
I'm doing real good.
I really appreciate you joining us on the show to talk about this case.
This is a hell of a case.
Of course, this kind of thing happens probably from time to time, all the time.
Right.
But this is what you really describe here is a systematic abuse of the system and the way it works that went unchecked for years and years and years.
Is that really right?
Yeah, that's right.
I actually don't think I sure I sure hope this doesn't go on quite like this.
This is sort of a unique circumstance.
You have a district attorney that's been in office nearly 30 years.
And so then you have he really rules this judicial district.
Harvard University ranked it one of the most corrupt in the nation for good reason.
And this is why you have a specialized narcotics team that did this for over a decade.
And they're now in positions of leadership.
They've all covered for one another across the state.
So I sure hope our country is not like this.
You know, I hope it's more.
We have bad departments or we have bad officers, but we don't have a system like this.
It's just horribly oppressive.
Yeah, it's funny.
You know, when you talk about that, it makes me think of sixth, seventh grade when they teach checks and balances.
You know, my teacher, she hated to admit that there was even a reason that anyone would need any checks and balances.
But, you know, those radicals, the founders, they just didn't trust executive power enough.
And so they created these things where, you know, if stuff was going wrong, that it would be in the interest of other parts of the government for to stop it themselves in order to gain for their own gain, that kind of thing.
And this is exactly where something like that is supposed to kick in.
Right.
Some attorney general, some, you know, legislative assistant somewhere decides that this is how they're going to make their name is by smashing the hell out of something like this.
And yet apparently not.
That did not happen.
Well, that's a really good insight.
You know, in this particular case, the district attorney, having been there for three decades, it was parallel with his own brother being in the attorney general's office as the assistant attorney general prosecutor for a very long period of time.
So any complaints that went from law enforcement officers to the state attorney general, it sure appears that this district attorney's brother was able to shut those down before they ever reached the actual attorney general.
And then you have this prospect of literally over a thousand cases that the person that did the internal affairs investigation, the head of that department.
That's his number, not my number.
That's his number.
So they all all these officers that complained in writing were Caucasian.
And they sent files to our then governor, Don Siegel.
And so, you know, Don Sigelman thought this was so bad of a problem.
He was going to wait after the reelection to get Washington, D.C., to come down the prop to help solve.
And of course, we know what happened to him.
He got convicted of a crime that doesn't exist in the city in front of.
Yeah.
So by Washington, D.C.
Right.
And I think you also have to say this.
We have Senator Jeff Sessions, who was an attorney general back when some of these guys came to power and all this started.
So we have evidence that, you know, his office was notified of this and he failed to act.
Very disturbing.
Very disturbing.
You got a guy, group of guys pathologically, in my opinion, against people of color.
They had these weird meetings with this kind of neo-Confederate group.
And it's just really strange.
You know, it's strange for South Alabama.
And they they're in power and they rule with fear.
You know, we have people coming forward.
Some of the officers in the police department have admitted that these guys grab young men and put their faces in fire ant beds until they confess to planted crack being theirs.
We have photographs of some of these guys that you're going to see roll out.
It's just it's just shocking and unbelievable.
All right.
So now.
Well, just real quick.
How many cops are we talking about?
Never mind the the the D.A. and all the rest of the cover uppers, but the actual cops out there in the field.
How many were involved in this conspiracy at the time, do you think?
And we're talking about over a course of years and years here.
When I say at the time.
Right.
We think there's a core group of about a dozen.
I think 15 up to 15 were named in some of the documents on the internal affairs investigation.
But largely that narcotics team.
They have gone on to positions of leadership.
And you're saying it was all the cops that weren't on the team or not all, but cops that weren't on that team were the ones complaining about them.
Is that it?
Yeah, there was some on the team that witnessed some of this.
They eventually complained in writing.
And that's what triggered the internal affairs investigation.
The outcome of it was so bad, the chief.
At the time, he just decided to cover it up is what we understand.
And that's what the documents indicate, because he comes back several months later and lies to the city manager in writing.
You see him appearing to be lying in a deposition in an unrelated case a year later.
So you can't really tell which one of his written documents what the truth is.
But what's undeniable is there are hundreds of these guys coming forward, and there's a lot in prison.
And somehow the state is going to have to make them whole again, or at least attempt to, and overturn their convictions, clean their records, and try to go after and prosecute the police chief, the assistant director of Homeland Security for the state.
And by the way, he announced his retirement yesterday because of this.
You know, inside word is they forced him out immediately.
His retirement is effective January 1st.
So he's the first domino to fall.
We think all these guys are going to get prosecuted by the Justice Department.
Wow, yeah, we'll see about that part.
But so, I mean, I think that's ominous.
And I will say this.
The attorney general has already assigned a special prosecutor to this case.
So there's no doubt these guys are going to.
Oh, yeah, the U.S. attorney general has?
The state attorney general has.
Oh, the state attorney general has.
Yeah, so there's no confusion here.
You know, these documents are authentic, and we believe they are.
You know, we have the author of the documents that's come forward and authenticated them.
You know, these guys are going to prison.
Yeah, so in other words, they're not, at this point, this is, it's finally now a big enough scandal that they're not going to even, it doesn't look like they're even going to try to ignore it away at this point.
They're going to go ahead and at least get the low-hanging fruit.
Oh, yeah, they're going after it.
Yeah.
And there's a real good question of whether or not the police department has already made an attempt to destroy all the original documents.
And that's part of what generated the officers that brought me.
I mean, you've looked at 12 or 14 documents.
I forget the exact number that we posted.
There are 850 of these documents.
These guys have covered up murders, you know, of black people.
They've covered up, they've even covered up the murder of a fellow black narcotics officer.
All this is going to come out.
All of it's documented.
Wow.
All of it's authenticated.
It's going to keep getting worse week after week after week after week.
And the officer's murder they covered up was murdered by another one of these cops?
I won't say that yet.
It was a murder for hire scheme done by a prominent, you know, doping business man.
Right on.
All right.
Wow.
So, you know, I like honest portrayals of the state from time to time.
This is how it works, everybody.
This is what business they're in.
All right.
Well, so everybody hang tight.
We're going to be back in just a few minutes with Jonathan Carroll.
He's writing at henrycountyreport.com.
You really got to read this article.
There's a lot to it.
Leaked documents reveal Dothan Police Department planted drugs on young black men for years.
And the DA was in on it, too.
Right back.
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All right, you guys.
Welcome back.
Man, I'm rereading this article during the break here thinking that the entire government of Alabama is going to have to be abolished and then probably best not start it over again at all.
No, we have some good people here.
Oh, okay.
We have some real good people.
Yeah.
And I think it goes, you know.
Maybe you need a civil war or something then.
I don't know.
I think the problem is we have some people like this police chief that, you know, wrapped up in the Confederate flag.
Not at home now.
Not in a hunting cabin.
But he's wrapped up in a Confederate flag in his office.
So I think we have people still fighting the civil war on some kind of, you know, drug.
But I want to go back to a point you made that I think is very valuable about the checks and balances.
And that's what the judicial system in states like Alabama are lacking.
The district attorney can hide behind immunity.
He doesn't have to give exculpatory evidence.
He can do these types of things and have no real accountability.
Now, I think we're going to see a change in that because this isn't a bad apple in a barrel.
They can ask for money all they want.
Law enforcement, you know, I've worked with law enforcement before.
That's not the problem.
The system, the discussion to be having in the country is we have a system that was unconsciously designed to be like a host for a really ugly virus.
That virus is corruption that can be used to target people of color.
Yeah.
Well, and, of course, at that point, anybody else too.
I mean, I don't know who else.
Maybe these guys weren't framing up white people, but certainly they're operating outside the law all day, every day.
I mean, there's no reason to presume anybody they accused of anything ever did anything they said.
My point of view.
They terrorized this community for 20 years.
They have literally, you know, they terrorized this community.
And where the hell was 60 Minutes this whole time, right?
Where the hell are, you know, just the basic institutions of our society that are supposed to kick in here?
Well, they've contacted us, and we're going to share information with 60 Minutes gladly.
But this place is a landscape of fear here, you know.
They threatened me.
I mean, personally.
So I understand this.
You know, I'm like a 6'5", 280-pound redneck with a long beard.
So, you know, you probably don't want to threaten me unless you really are serious.
But, you know, imagine, you know, if you're a single mother, 5'2", 90 pounds, and two kids, and they take your kids away from you if you disagree with them or challenge them in court.
You speak out.
You get drugs planted on you again.
That's how these people operate.
Man, that's insane.
It's horrifying.
And you got 800 documents, you say, to prove all of this.
Oh, yeah.
There are all kinds of different cases that are very interesting.
It's not just, you know, that the common theme is that these guys are targeting people of color.
That seems to me.
But it's not exclusive.
There are poor country whites, you know, that are targeted occasionally.
You're saying they're not targeting crimes at all.
They're just saying, there's a guy, let's get him on something, and then they just go get him and make some money.
Yeah.
It's crazy.
And I'll give you an example.
They have something called a pretrial diversion program.
And there's several million dollars sitting in this account in one of the poorest places in the nation, in South Alabama.
Just, you know, like $3 million, I think, is the current number.
And what they're doing is they're planting dope on people, and they're copying the plea deals and then paying out all this money.
And then once they get off of pretrial diversion and didn't have a clean record, they do it all over again.
That's the story we keep running, you know, into.
And the guys say, look, give me a drug test.
That's not my dope.
Give me a polygraph test.
That's not my dope.
And it just doesn't matter.
You know, they get court-appointed attorneys.
They show up literally two minutes, three minutes at the trial.
They don't do any discovery.
They won't let their clients look at the evidence.
They don't even look at the evidence.
They never question what these police officers do.
And if they do question them, the judges don't assign them cases.
So it's just a corrupt system that has to be changed.
Yeah.
And, of course, I guess nobody has their own lawyer, right?
Everybody, if they have a lawyer at all, it's the court-appointed lawyer.
Yeah.
No one can afford an attorney down there.
It's a very poor, you know, area.
Sure.
And then so you say in the judges just where it's that transparent that somebody says, oh, come on, Your Honor, we've seen a million of these, and we know this ain't true.
That's the last time they're going to be able to represent somebody up there again, huh?
You got that right.
That's how the system works here.
It reinforces itself.
It closes ranks.
Yeah.
Well, and, of course, there are 20,000 counties in America.
This is going on a lot more places than just in yours.
But this may just be, you know, the ultimate kind of example to draw a picture for people so they can see the economic incentives and the way they work on the actors here, you know?
I agree with you.
An elderly man that had been part of the civil rights movement, I think he's like 90-something, he told me, he said, Carol, he said, do you see what I see?
He said the plantation is even larger.
He said the shackles are no longer on our ankles.
He said the chains are in these forms of numbers.
And he said we control people.
He said we're all being exploited.
I don't know if I go that far, but I will say this.
They use the power of the state and technology to monitor, to oppress, to intimidate, and to facilitate what these idiots running around on this narcotics team are doing.
There's a lot of countries where if you grab young kids and suck their faces in ant bed, you're going to get your ass shot off.
Yeah.
Well, and, of course, it's all covered up.
So there's not, you know, any kind of widespread recognition, or maybe within that community there is, but outside it, nobody's ever heard of it.
So there's not, you know, any kind of support for any kind of action against it.
But so now that you have all these documents, and now that this is such a big deal, because apparently this, you know, the truth of the internal affairs investigation that it revealed, now that it's been revealed, it has made somewhat of a big splash.
But how big?
I mean, did you make the Post and the Times and USA Today and all of those?
You know, was it a big enough deal?
It's all over the world, yeah.
And we got the documents.
Our attorney told us that they would do anything to suppress these documents.
It didn't matter what the law was here in Alabama.
Yeah, like in the article you say, the original documents are safe in Canada right now.
Good move.
We carried them to British Columbia.
We started getting threats.
First we got offers, job offers.
Then we got, you know, monetary, financial offers.
We got an accommodation is the wording.
And so I'm like, you know, no, bye.
I know they're safe in British Columbia.
From there we can share the originals with the Justice Department and we can have copies made available.
And slowly as we authenticate them, we will share them open source to the world.
You know, I think this makes a great test case for, you know, especially, I mean, they got away with it for so long.
But, okay, now that they're busted, busted, are they going to get busted or not?
And, you know, we have in the case of torturers and a lot of other cases of, of course, police murders across the country where, no, they got sovereign immunity either outright or de facto.
And they can do whatever the hell they want to us and will never be held to account.
This is one of those where it's, you know, comic book level supervillainy here.
And are they going to be able to get away even with this?
And that's, I don't know, you seem a lot more confident that they're going to be prosecuted, but I'm willing to entertain your optimism.
This seems like the kind of thing where they absolutely have to draw the line or how can they claim any legitimacy at all?
Oh, if they don't, I think that it's all bets are off.
I think that, you know, and I'm not in any way advocating or supporting violence, but I mean, let's be perfectly candid here.
If they don't do something about this, you're going to have serious mass violence.
I mean, there's just no way around it.
The Black Lives Matter group, I first thought they were kind of crazy and overaggressive.
But after some of this stuff that I've witnessed and, you know, looked through the documents and interviewed some of the victims, I mean, they are just out of patience.
The system, they have tried everything they can do for the system to change itself, and it has pushed back just as hard.
So either the feds can change the system or we're headed down a very bad road in this country.
Yeah.
Well, and see, the problem, it can't be you can't rely on the Justice Department for this.
It's got to be the population that cares enough to try to do the right thing.
And then that's the real hard part is it doesn't look like that's really going to change.
You know, something like this may scandalize a certain percentage of the white population for a while, but not long enough to really stick.
It doesn't seem like.
Now, if you get inside, I think you're right.
There are pockets in this country where even if you take out all the bad actors on the stage, they're just going to replace them with similar or like bad actors.
And that's you know, that's a education and cultural problem.
Just, you know, I look at a long term solution.
I look at Nelson Linder, who's the head of the NAACP here in Austin, and I'm thinking, well, why isn't he the damn D.A.
Right.
Who says the D.A. has to be a former prosecutor or, you know, a former junior level prosecutor or something like that?
How come we don't elect the leaders of Black Lives Matter to be the D.A.?
And we'll see some accountability in the police department and we'll see who, you know, turns off their body cam right when they're murdering somebody or not.
You know what I mean?
But anyway, I'm all on board with that.
Yeah, I don't really believe in democracy.
That's the childish me talking like one day it could ever work like they promised.
But I don't really see that right now.
Anyway.
Hey, listen, this is great journalism here.
Thank you so much for your time on the show, Jonathan.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you for the invite.
All right.
That's Jonathan Carroll.
He's at HenryCountyReport.com.
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