11/23/15 – Iona Craig – The Scott Horton Show

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All right, you guys, welcome back.
I'm Scott Horton, and it's my show, The Scott Horton Show.
Our next guest today is Iona Craig, writing for The Intercept at theintercept.com.
She was based in Yemen from 2010 to 2015 for the Sunday Times, and she's also written for The Irish Times, The L.A. Times, Al Jazeera, BBC, et cetera, and won the Gellhorn Award for her coverage on the covert war in Yemen.
And I realize now there's an archive of Intercept articles here I need to go back through, but this one is US and Saudi bombs target Yemen's ancient heritage.
It's also called the agony of Sadda.
We ran it about a week ago or so on antiwar.com.
Welcome to the show, Iona.
Thank you.
I'm good.
Thanks.
I'm very good.
How are you?
I'm doing really good.
I appreciate you joining us here today.
Great work here.
Before we talk about the real tragedy and the destruction of the heritage, whatever you call it, of the people of Yemen, we got to first talk about the people of Yemen, because as tragic as a lot of the effect of this is, it's still come on the structural history here, still a second place to the human beings being killed now.
And boy, are they being killed by America and Saudi Arabia in Yemen right now.
Am I right?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, the figures are now 5,700 since March.
But I mean, that's a gross underestimation.
And that's only figures of people that have died in hospitals when the vast amount of the population can't even get medical care, can't get to the hospitals because of the war.
And even from the airstrikes, I've seen people are being buried literally where they're dying at the site of strikes, or bodies are being taken straight to the cemetery.
So yes, even the figures that we're hearing about will only represent a fraction of the real number of people are being killed.
And, you know, I tried to point to that in the piece as devastating as it is that the heritage is being destroyed, really, everybody in Yemen is just struggling to survive on a daily basis.
Well, now, so we've heard from the beginning of this war, back in March, that, hey, this is the poorest country in the Middle East.
And they're virtually entirely dependent on imports for their food.
And in fact, I spoke with an expert on the show named Martha Mundy, or Mundy, you may know her, who I didn't get a chance to get into it with her, but she at least hinted at the past of IMF World Bank shenanigans being behind the destruction of whatever Yemeni agriculture ever used to thrive, and making them so dependent on foreign imports for their food resources in the first place.
But it's kind of been said all along for almost a year now, three quarters of a year, that these people are going to starve to death under this blockade.
And so I got to wonder about that.
Here we are, the end of November, who's left alive, or people are making do, or somebody's rationing something, the Houthis are passing out wheat to somebody, the Red Cross got through somehow, or what?
Tell me.
So yeah, Yemen relies, you know, on importing 90% of its food.
But what's really been happening now, the Saudi imposed blockade, which is being supported by the US and the UK, by the way, has all but brought an end to commercial imports.
But at the same time, because of the pressure really from the international community and the humanitarian organizations, they're letting in a trickle.
So it's just enough to stop the whole thing falling off the cliff edge.
But at the same time, not enough to stop people from dying and children particularly dying from malnutrition.
The UN just put out its report yesterday on food security in Yemen.
And in the one province they were able to gather, hospital intake data showed a fourfold increase in child malnutrition.
So that's an indication that this is a very slow burning situation.
Yes, a lot of the humanitarian organizations thought that the situation was going to be a hell of a lot worse by now.
But Yemenis are very resilient, you've got to understand that they've never really had a state to rely on in the first place.
So they've always been extremely good at looking after each other.
They've got a very strong sense of community.
This tribal culture means that everybody in a village will try and look after their neighbors and share what food and supplies they have to look after their community.
So yes, what's happening now is with this blockade, there is enough getting through, whether it be legally through aid agencies, there is a very small fraction of commercial goods getting through, or by smuggling, that is enough to stop this mass famine scenario that the UN, the United Nations is predicting at the moment.
So it's becoming very slow burning.
So you're not going to see it visibly like you'd imagine the 1980s style Ethiopia scenario of refugee camps with thousands of starving people.
You got to remember in Yemen, you know, the majority of the population lives in very remote rural areas.
And you're not going to see it on mass like that.
It's going to be creeping famine out in the mountains, out in rural places, and we'll probably never get to see it.
Well, speaking of creeping, is there any end in sight to this war, whether from the Saudi or the Houthi side actually having a victory and winning the war or some kind of peace talks that both sides are willing to participate in or any kind of end in sight?
Well, I think, as we all know, with modern war these days, what does winning look like?
But yes, there are attempts to negotiate a political settlement.
They haven't got very far.
There were talks in Geneva earlier this year, and both sides, being the president's side, President Hadi, who is currently in exile in Saudi Arabia, and the Houthis, who are supported by the former President Saleh, they didn't even meet in the same room.
So they are trying again, they hope to maybe by the end of this month, beginning of December, to meet again, either in Geneva, probably, or possibly in Oman, to try and reconvene those talks.
But that's a long way off reaching a settlement.
And even if they reach an agreement, it's actually implementing it.
And you have to remember that Saudi Arabia isn't actually involved directly in those talks either.
And of course, they play a huge role in whether this war continues and or whether it stops.
So yes, the UN Special Envoy has been running around doing shuttle diplomacy, trying to get the sides to meet.
But all indications are on the ground that this war will continue until particularly Saudi Arabia can at least make something of what they think is going to look like a win out of it, you know, for face saving purposes, if nothing else.
Well, I don't know.
I mean, I guess there really is no indication so far of the Saudis backing down from their insistence that Hadi must retake the throne and rule all of Yemen, right?
No, no hint toward maybe breaking the country back up into two or three or...
No, not at the moment.
I mean, in effect, it's already doing that itself.
So in the south, you have got Hadi or the coalition in control in the southern city of Aden, which they have now renamed the temporary capital.
And up in the north, in Sanaa, the capital is where the Houthis are.
So it's almost like two countries now anyway.
It's very difficult if you're going from the south to the north, because you're basically having to cross the front lines and having to explain yourself to one side or the other why you've been in the north or the south.
It's almost like North and South Korea in that respect.
It's kind of crazy when you're trying to navigate the country now.
So yeah, there is no sign of the Saudis backing down on that, of Hadi coming back, although how legitimate he is, I think, is hugely debatable, bearing in mind he was voted in a one-man election and then extended his term after that.
And he's really politically a dead man walking.
Neither side is willing to support him.
And you'll struggle to find any fighters on the grounds who are actually fighting for President Hadi at this point.
Are you surprised that the Houthis were able to come all the way and take the capital city and hold it all this time?
Yes, initially, but when you watched it happening, I was in Sanaa when they came and took the city in September.
And although there was sort of four days of fighting, one of the major military camps in the north of the city, they then took the entire capital in a matter of hours without a shot being fired.
And that was all down to the support of the former President Ali Abdullah Saleh and his loyalists within the military who basically helped the Houthis along.
And there's no way the Houthis would have been able to get to where they've got today without that support from Ali Abdullah Saleh's loyalists.
Their old enemy, Saleh, who they fought four times or more.
Wait, hold it right there.
We got to take this break.
We'll be right back, everybody, with Iona Craig writing at The Intercept.
The Intercept, U.S. and Saudi bombs target Yemen's ancient heritage.
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All right, y'all.
Welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton talking with Iona Craig from The Intercept about the catastrophe in Yemen that is the American-Saudi war against the people of Yemen.
Her piece is called US and Saudi Bombs Target Yemen's Ancient Heritage.
Wow.
Do I really read you right here, Iona, that they're bombing and destroying cities that are 3,000 years old and even older than that?
Yes.
I mean, even Sana'a, the capital, the local legend has it that it was founded by Shem, the son of Noah.
The history in Yemen goes back a long, long way, pre-Islamic and pre-Christian.
Some of those sites, not even the most hardened traveler has ever got to see in Yemen.
There have been archeologists and teams out there that have been doing a lot of work in previous years to restore those sites and all that work has been undone now because of this bombing.
It's amazing to even consider, of course, I'm an American and it's a very young country here, but it's amazing to read about houses where families have lived, where fathers passed the house down to their son, that kind of thing, for hundreds and hundreds of years on end.
These are the houses that America is destroying.
They're killing people.
I'm not trying to play down the killing of people, but you got to take time, I'm glad you did in this article, we got to take time to play up the destruction of the ancient heritage of the human race here and for what, to put Hadi on the throne in a fight that can't be won, that's already proven to have failed?
It's crazy.
Yeah.
I mean, I think the thing to try, I was trying to illustrate here is that, yes, they're buildings, but they're so intertwined in people's, the culture and people's lives, they, like you say, the same families have been living in them for generations and generations and with many of them, that's their only possession.
That is what they would sell if they needed to, the land that it's sitting on.
And also the skills that goes into building those homes.
And it's also particularly tragic when they do bomb those houses, because if you're inside, you are much more likely to die when one of those is bombed than a modern concrete house.
I've seen the difference.
When a modern concrete house is pancaked, it'll be at the point of where the bomb hits in the middle of the building.
And if you're lucky and you're at the outsides, the whole of the building is not going to, probably not going to collapse depending on the size of the bomb used.
Whereas in these old mud houses, which are sort of anywhere between seven and 10 stories high, which I lived in for four years, by the way, when a bomb hits one of those, because they're made of mud, the whole thing will collapse.
And many of the people that die are suffocating because of the dust and the mud that goes up and they will die from suffocation when that building comes down and the whole thing will crumble.
So you're losing these beautiful old buildings, but also the risk to people when they're inside them when those bombs hit is so much greater than if you're in a modernly constructed house.
Man.
And, you know, the thing is, too, is all we've got to do is stop for a second and think, what if it was China that was doing this?
What would the American media say about it?
Those, you know, savage Oriental barbarians of the East who would destroy humanity's heritage in this way and blah, blah, blah.
To no end, they'd be crying about it.
But hey, whatever red, white and blues behind it.
And in fact, I don't know exactly how it is, you know, in the UK, but in America, nobody ever even heard of the Yemen war.
They don't cover it.
It's not even on the Laird NewsHour today, you know, the serious one for college graduates.
They never talk about it.
Nobody talks about it.
It's not even a news story.
Yeah, I think this is also the problem with Yemen.
I mean, it was always the case, you know, I've been covering the country for five years now and getting the interest, you know, getting getting interest in Yemen beyond Al Qaeda was always a struggle.
But now I think, you know, people are perhaps a little war weary, particularly in the Middle East with so much conflict going on.
But also, it's extremely difficult for journalists, international journalists to get in the country.
And even once they do get in the country through the blockade, they're not being welcomed with open arms by the authorities, particularly in Sana'a by the Houthis at the moment, either.
They're making it extremely difficult for journalists.
The risks are very high.
And I think when it becomes, you know, hard work or risky for a lot of the mainstream networks, they're just not going to touch it.
And unfortunately, actually, in the last few weeks, you know, there was an American who was in detention who died whilst he was being held.
And there has been something of a of a witch hunt for American nationals in the capital in Sana'a in the last couple of weeks.
So that really puts people off wanting to travel to the country to try and cover the story as well.
So, yeah, it's it's it's as hard as it is getting getting food in there and getting medical supplies into everybody.
It's just as hard getting the information out as well.
So, yeah.
And of course, that's convenient for both America and the UK.
You know, this is a war they're supporting, both with intelligence, with bombs, with refueling of planes.
And so it's convenient for both the American and the British governments when this story is not being covered, because it becomes incredibly awkward for the American and British governments when they have to face questions about large numbers of civilian casualties that are being caused by their own weaponry.
Yeah, well, and the next time AQAP or some other group, maybe the Houthis this time or somebody tries to send someone to attack the United States, the American people will wonder, well, why?
It must be because radical Islam made it made them do it, because what has America ever done to Yemen?
Because our our government and our media just won't talk about it at all.
And in fact, speaking of which, I meant to ask you earlier about gains, any gains made by al Qaeda on the ground since the start of this war, since America started attacking their worst enemies, the Houthis for them.
Well, yeah, this is where it gets complicated in Yemen.
To be fair to the Houthis, although they have this slogan, death to America, death to Israel, they have never actually posed any threats internationally outside of Yemen's borders.
And although I say, you know, they've been throwing Americans in prison, they have never carried out or looked to carry out any attacks, whether it be against the American embassy or anything like that in Yemen.
But on al Qaeda, yeah, I mean, al Qaeda took control of the southern city of Mokalla in April.
So just one month into the war, American drone strikes have continued.
They've kind of not been at the same level as they were before, but they did take out a significant number of leaders this year, actually.
More leaders of the group than they have done in the last five years since AQAP became what it is today in 2009.
But yeah, the group is, if anything, is getting stronger because of the conflict.
They are now putting themselves up as the frontline defense against the Houthi expansion.
The Houthis are predominantly Shia fighters, although not all, because, of course, they've got Saleh loyalists with them who are a mix.
But al Qaeda certainly puts up the sectarian narrative and says that they're the main line of defense against them.
And so, yeah, they're building relationships with local tribes that they otherwise wouldn't have done because Hadi's army collapsed.
And really, the only people the tribes had really as an ally when al Qaeda came along and said, we'll help you.
Some of them didn't have a lot of choice in that matter because there was nobody else that was going to fight with them.
So, yeah, it's meant that al Qaeda has got stronger.
And we've also seen the emergence of Islamic State in Yemen over the last year.
But I also have to point out that the rise of those two groups during a time of war is not totally detached from the political conflict that's going on in the country.
Certainly, al Qaeda has been used by the political elite in the past as a stick to beat other groups and their opponents with as well as to beat America with in order to get more money out of them.
So, yes, they are not totally independent of the political power struggle.
And I can't imagine that Islamic State is immune from that either, because I can't see that it's a coincidence that they have kind of suddenly emerged over the same period as this civil war has gone on.
Yeah, it seems this whole time, both sides, the al Qaeda guys and the Houthis do nothing but grow stronger and stronger anytime anybody attacks them.
So when they go to their ultimate clash, I guess we'll see what happens then.
But so far, war is the health of both of those states.
Yeah, sure.
I mean, they have been fighting each other on the ground.
But now there's this proliferation of weapons, of course.
Some of those have been going into the hands of al Qaeda as well, certainly.
Not only the arms drops that the Saudis were doing, al Qaeda have got hold of some of those weapons.
But even Islamic State, they carried out a major suicide attack in Aden at the beginning of October.
And they were using the armored vehicles that the United Arab Emirates had shipped in in July.
We saw this with Islamic State in Iraq and then Syria doing the same by using American vehicles that they got their hands on.
And the exact same has happened in Yemen.
Yeah.
All right, so that is Iona Craig writing for The Intercept previously for The London Times.
And she's the winner of the Gellhorn Prize.
And I think when you read this one, you'll see why.
It's called US and Saudi bombs target Yemen's ancient heritage.
I really hope you guys will take a look at it.
Thanks very much, Iona.
I appreciate it.
Thanks for having me.
Hey, Al.
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