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All right, you guys, welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton.
It's my show, The Scott Horton Show, here on the Liberty Radio Network.
And for our first interview today, we actually have a debate between Philip Giraldi and Michael Pregant.
Phil Giraldi is a former CIA and DIA officer.
He is executive director of the Council for the National Interest and writes for UNZ.com and the American Conservative Magazine.
His latest at UNZ is, Did Iranian Weapons Kill Americans?
Michael Pregant is from the Washington Institute for Near East Policy and also vets against the deal.
And they're running an ad on TV right now against the Iran nuclear deal and citing Iranian bombs in Iraq War II.
Yeah, yeah, it's Pregant.
Pregant.
Former intelligence officer, was with DIA and was at the National Defense University.
But I'm away from all that now, running the veterans against the Iran deal.
And thanks for having me.
Okay, yeah, good deal.
Thanks for joining us.
Happy to have you.
All right, so, and let's start with you, Michael.
You guys are running this ad featuring a staff sergeant who was wounded by a roadside bomb in the Iraq War.
And he says, hey, it was an Iranian bomb.
And then the point of the ad is, the Iranians are going to get sanctions relief and therefore money and therefore spend money on bombs and terrorism.
So, what is the evidence that you would cite for the bomb that wounded this Sergeant Bartlett being an Iranian bomb?
Okay, here's why.
It was an explosively formed penetrator, okay?
Now, I understand the argument is that they're made in Iraq, therefore they're not Iranian.
But here's what you need to know.
Shia militias go to Iran.
They were trained on the implementation of explosively formed penetrators.
They were equipped with weapons, equipped with material to build them, the money to build them.
And then they were under the direction of Qasem Soleimani of the IRGC.
Qasem Soleimani is the commander of Quds Force.
His portfolio is Iraq.
And they were directed to be used exclusively against U.S. military, up-armored Humvees.
All right.
And Phil Giroldi, how do you answer that?
Well, there's a lot of suppositions in that.
They're assuming that they were under the direction of Iran to use these weapons.
They're assuming that they were directed specifically against certain targets.
Could I finish?
Yeah.
Okay.
And, you know, I was an intelligence officer, too, and I know exactly how these intelligence assessments kind of work.
There are a lot of suppositions that go in to the product.
And I would suggest to you that unless you have real – you know, this business of blaming Iran for killing Americans, particularly right now, when there's an agreement that's been – How about a seized laptop?
Is that evidence?
How about a seized laptop indicating the direction of Quds Force?
We've seen seized laptops before that were fabricated by Mossad.
You haven't seen seized laptops for 20 years.
I'm talking about seized laptops from five years ago when Qasem Soleimani was in Iraq directing these attacks.
You haven't seen a seized laptop for 20 years.
Can you produce that laptop and subject it to independent inspection to make sure it's not a forgery?
There have been too many lies about what's been going on in Iraq and too many lies about the Iranian role.
And my argument is essentially that unless you can come up with really solid evidence accusing and indicting the Iranian government in terms of these policies, a lot of what you're coming out with is just speculation.
It's not speculation.
I'm not a consensus intel guy.
I don't believe in consensus analysis.
What we look at is pure evidence.
I was an intelligence officer in Baghdad for five years working malign Iranian influence.
Okay.
We seized a laptop from Qais and Laith Qazali.
Are you familiar with Qais and Laith Qazali?
Yeah, I am.
They are the two leaders from Asab al-Hilal Haq, AH.
On that laptop was directed operations against the U.S. military using explosively formed penetrators, using improvised rocket-assisted motors or IRAMs.
Those two individuals were actually detained and held at Krabi.
They were also part of the Karbala Five.
Are you familiar with the Karbala Five?
No, I'm not.
Okay.
The Karbala Five, it was a group of Americans who were training Iraqis.
There was an attempt to kidnap the Five, take them across to Iran and exchange them for four Iranian agents captured in Erbil.
The plan went south and four Americans were executed in the back of a car by Iranian agents directly linked to Qasem Soleimani.
That led to the arrest of Qais and Laith Qazali, both currently leading Hashd al-Shaabi Shia militias in Iraq.
So there's a direct link there.
Our argument is, fine with the nuke deal.
Who cares about the nuclear part of the Iran nuke deal?
We have a big problem with the non-nuclear concessions in this deal where you're actually giving Qasem Soleimani, the guy responsible for directing these attacks against Americans, freedom of movement throughout the Middle East, money, and this ability to actually travel to Russia and China, to guarantors within the JCPOA that are currently facilitating Soleimani's travel.
That's who we have a problem with, and you're a counterterrorism expert.
You're a counterterrorism expert.
You should know that if Iran funds, arms, and directs attacks, that Iran is culpable.
All right.
We've got to stop right there.
I don't know that, actually.
We'll be right back with Phil's response on the other side of this break.
It's Phil Giraldi and Michael Pregent.
Back after this.
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All right, you guys.
Welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton.
It's my show, The Scott Horton Show.
It's a debate.
Phil Giraldi and Michael Pregent, debating over Iran's role in the Iraq war and the EFP problems and what it means for the current Iran deal.
And we had kind of a short segment because of telephone difficulties there to start.
But where we left off, it's now Phil's turn to respond to what Michael said about Iran's relationship with Asaib al-Alhaq and other militias in Iraq, etc.
Go ahead, Phil.
Yeah, I mean, I don't dispute the fact that Iran has been involved with militias on many levels, and also that Iran has been involved with what one might describe as the Iraqi government.
This was a natural development of the previous regime, which basically sent a lot of people into exile in Iran.
But anyway, that's a side issue.
The issue here is essentially that this ad is appearing at a time when clearly it's intended to disrupt an agreement that's been reached between the White House and the Iranian government and five other governments, plus the entire United Nations.
Now there's a purpose in this, and basically the argument is intended to demonstrate in an emotional way that the Iranians were, quote, directly killing American soldiers in Iraq, which I would dispute the demonization of Iran, a country that's manifestly worse than other countries in the region.
I don't think it is.
I don't think Iran is a country that necessarily is more evil, more prone to activities that are disruptive in the region than anyone else.
All right.
Well, and let me ask you, Michael, I mean, isn't it a pretty big concession to start out with that, okay, okay, the bombs were made in Iraq?
Because the accusation all through 2007 is that they were all coming from Iran, and not only that, but that proved that the Iranian government was behind it all, when, as Phil says, you guys were actually over there fighting for Iran, for the Bata Brigade, for the Supreme Islamic Council, for the Dawah Party, for the Iraqi exiles who'd been living in Iran for 30 years.
Let me tell you about that.
First off, they did originate in Iran, and yes, we actually, I was one of the intelligence officers saying, hey, we are witnessing the sheerification of the Iraqi security forces by Bata Corps, by Jaysh al-Mahdi, and by Maliki's Dawah Party.
I saw the Iraqi security forces go from a healthy sectarian balance of 50% Sunni and 50% Shia, to 90% Shia with heavy militia infiltration from Jaysh al-Mahdi and Bata Corps.
And we also saw the dismantling of the Sons of Iraq, which was a bad thing, too.
But during this time, Iran was putting pressure on Shia politicians, you know, bribing them, paying them off.
There was an assassination campaign against Christians, Sunni, and even Shia pilots.
The Bata Corps came into Iran, to Iraq, to ensure that Iraq would never, ever be a threat to Tehran again.
Yeah, we concede that.
We know where the mistakes were made.
Well, and that was the side that you guys were fighting on, not against.
No, we were fighting against that internally as well.
We were fighting against sectarianism and Shia militia infiltration in the Iraqi security forces.
We weren't blind to that.
The important thing is, in 2009, we were told to take our hands off of that.
When President Obama came into office, he said, okay, this is a sovereign government, Maliki's the guy, we need to let Maliki run this government.
We protested and said, listen, this is now a military that will answer to Iran, having Shia militia infiltration.
Now, if you look at the Iraqi security forces, it's 95% Shia with heavy militia infiltration, and that's not even counting the Hashd al-Shaabi, which is directly run by Soleimani and Hadi al-Amri and Mohandas from Qatar, who's the law.
We see the mistakes.
We don't see a force being built to take back Mosul.
We don't see a force being taken to take back Iran.
Michael, here's the thing, though.
But Michael, what's happening is, Americans know that we lost almost 5,000 over there fighting, but that we lost almost all of them fighting the Sunni-based insurgency, a great many of those to roadside bombs, none of which came from Iran, and even you can see that many, at least, of the EFPs were made...
Even you can see that many of the Shiite's EFPs were made in Iraq.
That's too absolute.
What you're saying, you've got to come in here and...
But what's happening is, you're trying to pin...
Are you going to let me answer it?
Well, but you were talking...
Are you going to let me answer the question?
You were talking all through my statement, so I'm not sure whether you heard me or not.
You're trying to pin 4,500 deaths on Iran, when it was Iran's enemies who did most of those, when America was fighting on Iran's side.
We're talking about 500 deaths in Iraq, directly...
Out of 5,000, right.
And those, as you conceded, many of those bombs even were made in Iraq.
We don't say 5,000, my man, we say 500 and thousands made by Iranian explosively-formed penetrators.
The Iranians developed a mission that was able to counter our up-armored capability that we reintroduced after being blown to hell by Al-Qaeda IEDs.
They developed a weapon that could actually penetrate.
That was called the explosively-formed penetrator.
They started doing that when the MRAP was introduced into Iraq, okay?
This is a capability the Iranians brought in.
That's nonsense.
The IED was a weapon that was used by the IRA in the 1930s.
You know, these weapons are relatively simple.
Yeah, I know, but we're talking about Iraq, my man.
We're talking about Iraq and Iran, not the IRA.
Okay, we're talking about explosively-formed penetrators introduced into Iraq by Iran.
We're not talking about the IRA.
You have to go that far back to make an argument.
You know, come on.
How about some evidence that the Iranians actually introduced these weapons?
If you go to the link in my article, which links to a Garrett Porter article, it demonstrates all the seizures, all the seizures of bomb-making factories inside Iraq that were producing these weapons, which kind of contradicts this idea that they were being introduced.
You're conflating IEDs with EFPs, and you should know that.
I'm using IED as a generic.
You know it's a generic.
The IED is what the Sunni insurgency used.
The explosively-formed penetrator is what we're talking about.
Yeah, and those were the factories that were found in Iraq, in Baghdad, and in Basra.
The Christian Science Monitor and the Wall Street Journal and Patrick Coburn in The Independent, it was reported over and over and over again that these were found in Iraq, in the Shiite parts of Iraq, being made by Shiites in their bomb-making factories.
Badr al-Khor, by Jaysh al-Mahdi, by Asad al-Haq, by Qutb al-Zawlah, all Iranian proxies, all falling under the command of Qasem Soleimani, who was delisted under this Iran deal.
That's our issue.
Well, at that time, the Badr al-Khor was the Iraqi army under the command of the USA.
That is just a weak, weak argument.
A weak argument.
Badr al-Khor followed us in when we invaded in 2003.
Yes.
They were an Iranian-backed proxy militia force.
Yes.
They sold us.
Yeah, they did sell us that they were the horse to pick.
And Badr al-Khor represented the opposite corps of the Iraqi security forces.
The intelligence community, working with General Petraeus and Ordeano, rooted these guys out when we discovered who they were.
We were told hands-off by the Obama administration to let Maliki fill the ranks with whoever he wanted to fill the ranks with.
So the American war led directly to ISIS.
This does not demonstrate in any way that Iran, at any considerable level, was introducing weapons into Iraq and targeting them to kill Americans.
And all you've cited so far is this laptop, which nobody has seen, and which, given the history of laptops in Iraq, could well be another fake.
All I've cited were IRAMs, an assassination campaign, Shia militia proxies, a captured laptop directly related to the Karbala Five, which you've never heard of, case in late Ghazali, who you didn't know they were either.
I'm introducing things that provide currency to this debate.
I'm trying to bring you up to speed.
Why are you doing this now, and who exactly is funding your organization?
Great Americans.
Great Americans.
Great Americans.
Hillary Clinton is funding this because she doesn't want to run for president with this hanging around her neck.
How about that?
Why don't you put some information on who's paying for you on your website?
I mean, your website is completely devoid of information.
Is that your argument?
Are we going to talk about Iran in Iraq?
Are you going to go back to this default-based argument of who's funding you?
Who's funding you?
Yeah, well, I think that's relevant.
Great Americans.
Great Americans.
Families of veterans.
Patriots are funding us.
Okay, look at our advisory board.
Yeah, that's what we're arguing.
Are you about Iraq and Iran, not about who's funding us?
No, I'm saying evidence on Iran having produced these weapons, given these weapons, and directed the use of these weapons, and you haven't produced anything.
You send me an email, and I'll give it to Scott here, and I'll send you all the information you're not going to want.
Okay?
I'll send you all the information you're not going to want.
You do a Freedom of Information request on that.
I'm not providing you that.
You can actually search the Karbala Five and the laptop and AAH and Case Cozali, and you'll find stuff out there.
You'll be able to find stuff out there.
It'll be something that happened within the last 20 years.
Well, Michael, it's also pretty easy to find Michael Knights at Jane's Defense Review and articles in the Wall Street Journal and all over the place.
You interrupt so much.
Why don't you be quiet for a second and listen, where General Pace, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, says, yeah, actually, we don't really have evidence of this.
There's times when Petraeus was going to lay out and do a big press conference in Iraq and show all the Iranian weapons, and all the skeptical reporters started gathering around, and they canceled it because they actually didn't really have any evidence at all.
You ask me why I'm not quiet?
It's because of these types of comments.
This is ridiculous.
What, quoting the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff when he says he can't really back it up?
Selectively quoting, yes.
Selectively quoting, yes.
I worked for General Petraeus in Iraq.
We know the evidence.
This veterans organization is former CIA guys, former NSA guys, former DIA guys, and veterans for the last 36 years going back to Beirut.
Since you're a 20-year guy-out-of-the-window kind of guy there, tell me about the Beirut bombing.
Did Iran have anything to do with that?
No.
Iran had nothing to do with directing Hezbollah to attack the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983, killing 241 Marines.
Iran had nothing to do with that?
There is no evidence that Iran directed Hezbollah to do that.
There was a civil war going on in Lebanon, you might recall, and our troops in our embassy and our CIA station were in there basically against Hezbollah, and Hezbollah attacked them.
Iran did not.
There is no evidence that Iran directed anyone.
Has Iran ever done anything bad, in your opinion?
Yeah, they've done a lot of bad things.
And if you look up when I've been writing about Iran, I'm very critical of Iran.
I have no illusions about Iran.
An Iranian tried to kill me in Istanbul.
So I have no illusions whatsoever about Iran.
But the fact is that to denigrate the country and to be laying out all these lies at a time like this.
It's not the country.
We're not denigrating the country.
We're denigrating the IRGC and the Quds Force.
IRGC and the Quds Force.
That's who we're denigrating.
Hey, I don't have a problem with that.
Okay, good.
We agree then.
Yes.
All right.
Well, that's a good place to stop because we're over time anyway, guys.
But thank you both, Phil Giroldi and Michael Pregent.
Thank you very much, Bethany.
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