For Antiwar.com and Chaos Radio 95.9 in Austin, Texas, I'm Scott Horton.
This is Antiwar Radio.
Everybody, it's David Paul Hammer, author of the brand new book, Deadly Secrets, Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing.
He knew Timothy McVeigh on death row and has quite a story to tell about what he says McVeigh told him about what really happened at the Oklahoma City Bombing.
Now, I've got to do my diligence and not just take a convicted murderer's word for it.
No offense, Mr. Hammer, but I would very much like you to prove your case.
I have to say that I already think that I know that much of this is true or very close to the truth about the Aryan Republican Army bank robbery ring and Elohim City and the involvement of some of these characters.
But could you please address the story of the Major and Poindexter, really the basis for the theory that Timothy McVeigh was not a right wing extremist of any description, but was actually on a special forces mission to do this operation to discredit the right.
Sure.
I'd like to address a couple of things that you just said.
The first thing is I can't tell you or your audience that I know Timothy McVeigh was telling me the truth.
What I can tell you is that I, through others on the outside, have spent countless, countless days trying to verify the things that McVeigh told me.
And I didn't just take him at his word.
And again, I can't say that he's telling the truth, but much of what he told me has now been verified.
And the other thing is the government is trying mighty hard to keep me from telling this story.
They've gone to great lengths, as you know, to keep me quiet.
But to address the issue of the Major and Poindexter, according to Tim, he reported for special forces training.
And when he reported for special forces training, he met a person who he had known previously in the Gulf who he referred to as the Major.
I tried repeatedly to get him to give us the identity of who the Major was, and he never did that.
But according to Tim, the Major told him that he currently worked doing black ops and that he wanted to recruit him.
He needed people like McVeigh to work as agents to infiltrate the right-wing militia and the patriot movement in the United States that he felt that they were quite a threat.
The things that McVeigh told us about the Major was over a prolonged period of time.
As you said, I spent 23 months with McVeigh here on death row at Terre Haute, Indiana, on federal death row.
Prior to that, I was in the same place as McVeigh at the Supermax prison in Florence, Colorado.
We flew on the same plane here back in 1999.
According to McVeigh, he was told by the Major to wash out of the special forces and to quietly retire from the United States Army and prepare for a mission.
As he learned along the way, he didn't know what his mission would be exactly at the beginning.
He just knew about the special operations that the Major was running.
But what it turned out to be was to infiltrate the right-wing movement.
And what you said about McVeigh not being an extremist at all, I'm not certain that that's accurate.
Because through our conversations, I grew to believe that while he had some of those leanings, that was not the major push behind the Oklahoma City bombing.
Well, I have to tell you, in reading the book, the portrait of McVeigh that's painted in there seems to fit pretty well with him running around with his bank robbery ring.
But it's hard to see his motivation to kill a bunch of people simply for following the orders of this mysterious Major.
You don't indicate in the book that he indicates to you that he agreed with the Major.
That something had to be done to kill a lot of people to discredit the right-wing or something.
And yet somehow he went along with this whole thing.
And in fact, let me just say another couple of things that jumped out at me about that part of it was this character Poindexter, who supposedly the Major instructs McVeigh that this guy is going to build a bomb and he's your secret contact and all these things.
And then later he's with McVeigh in the presence of these other neo-Nazi types.
But there's no other explanation of how McVeigh got these neo-Nazis that he was fooling to think that it was perfectly OK that he had this strange Poindexter guy with him.
And then, you know, then somebody cuts his throat and wouldn't that leave a giant blood stain on the floor wherever this took place?
Where this bomb was supposedly constructed that day?
There's some things that don't seem to make sense.
I don't know if you can address all of those at once or if we've got to go back.
Well, there was much of what Tim said over a prolonged period of time that didn't make sense.
You have to realize that I didn't sit down and interview Tim like for hours at a time.
We would be at recreation and we'd talk about small bits and pieces and then I would go back to my cell and make notes and save my notes.
And then I would go back at other times and ask him to do follow-up on things that didn't make sense to me.
And as you said, there's much of what McVeigh said that didn't make sense.
And the Poindexter thing didn't.
And whether there would be a blood stain, I'm assuming that there would be.
I think that very little, if any, investigation was done into the storage facility in Oklahoma City, which I now believe might be Emmerich Storage Facility based on the fact that McVeigh had a map and information for this facility in his car when he was arrested.
Of course, that could have been a red herring.
He might have left that as he did other things or at least as he said he did other things along the way just to mislead the authorities.
So I really can't understand why he put it on Poindexter or who he called Poindexter if he didn't have something to do with it.
There are some of the ARA members still alive who could either verify or not whether they had ever seen Poindexter.
But it's my understanding that at least Peter Langdon has indicated that he never met McVeigh and didn't have anything to do with him, didn't know him.
And that may be true.
He may be telling the truth that he didn't know him as Tim McVeigh.
He may have known him as Tim Total as McVeigh told us that he did.
So I truly believe that McVeigh had help in building the bombing.
I don't think that he built the bomb by himself.
The bomb that was actually used to blow up the Murrow building.
If what he told us is true, there was more than one bomb.
And there was more than one bombing truck.
We do know, as I pointed out in the book, that there was a grand jury investigation in St. Paul, Minnesota at the same time investigating the Oklahoma City bombing.
At the same time as the grand jury in Oklahoma City was investigating the bombing.
Why they needed two federal grand juries to investigate a bombing that happened in Oklahoma City, I don't know.
But there's FBI 302s that show that that was the case.
There are multiple witness statements corroborating the idea of two trucks, etc.
So tell me this.
When he told you this most mysterious, least corroboratable part of the story about the Major and Poindexter, did this part of it seem real to you?
Because after all, it's plausible if he says that Michael Brescia was riding shotgun that morning or Richard Lee Guthrie.
But who are these mysterious people who hired him to do this?
And again, I'm interested in his motivation.
Because I can see his motivation of being a neo-Nazi and doing it because he's a neo-Nazi.
But I don't really see his motivation in doing it because he's just following orders from some special forces mission.
Well, I know this much.
If you knew Timothy McVeigh, if you had ever spent any time with him, you would know that he wasn't nearly as smart as some people have claimed that he was.
When it came to firearms and ammunition and war and having read The Art of War and stuff like that, he was very bright.
He was very intelligent.
But just common sense and being able just to put a simple scheme together, he didn't have those characteristics.
I mean, that's just not Tim McVeigh.
And even his own defense team made that same conclusion in defense documents.
But getting back to the Major and Poindexter for a moment, I don't know if it was the Major or if it was Poindexter who actually helped build the bomb in Oklahoma City and then if he was killed.
I do know that there's an extra leg that's never been identified.
I don't know very much about explosives either, but I would think that if someone was in the back of that truck and it blew up, there wouldn't be anything left of them.
But that's not what the experts say.
The other thing is, if you follow the money trail, even if you follow just the money trail, there's no way in the world that Timothy McVeigh made enough money from his participation with the ARA and his selling whatnot at various gun shows to finance a bombing of the magnitude that took out the Merrill Building.
It just doesn't follow logic.
So he got money from somewhere, and he said it was from the Major, who was ultimately part of the United States government.
I know people don't want to believe that our government could do something like this, but I don't have a gripe with the government.
I mean, I put myself on death row.
I take full responsibility for where I am.
And so this doesn't have anything to be with me having some type of ax to grind with the government.
I love this country.
I think it's the greatest country on Earth.
I don't agree with the politicians a lot of the time.
And again, I'm not here to say that what McVeigh said was true.
I'm here to tell the people this is what McVeigh told me.
Take from it what you will and believe it or not.
But I do believe this much.
There is enough evidence or enough facts that are set forth in deadly secrets that would give any law enforcement agency plenty to go on if they just wanted to do an investigation.
All right.
Well, so now that we've kind of covered that most controversial part of it, let's go ahead.
And I'd like to give you a chance to sort of walk us through the narrative of what it was that Timothy McVeigh told you, because it's certainly different than what he told the hometown reporters that wrote American Terrorist.
You know, I recently watched a documentary that was based upon the tapes of McVeigh's conversations with reporters.
And for what it's worth, the first two days of the interviews that he gave with those reporters, we were at the ADX together.
And I was in a cubicle, not like it was depicted on TV.
It was a plexiglass cubicle.
All the visiting booths are connected together.
And I happened to be in the one exactly next to him visiting with my attorney for those two days.
And we could hear much of what McVeigh said.
And I saw his gestures.
One thing I will say is his gestures, when Tim talked, he used a lot of hand gestures.
And sometimes he would get very excited and animated.
And he had some of those same things going on when he was talking to the reporters.
But one thing that happened in those tapes, you know, that was broadcast with McVeigh's own voice, is they were talking about the morning of the 18th of April, the day before the bombing.
And he was supposed to have met up with someone at the storage facility to get some of the ingredients in Kansas, to get some of the ingredients to make the bomb.
And he's already, on the tapes, he's already said that Nichols had backed out, that Nichols wasn't going to show up because he had backed out.
Well, in his own voice, he says that he was to meet someone at that storage facility.
He didn't say Nichols.
There was a voiceover on this program that says, well, that's supposed to be Terry Nichols.
That's not what he said in his own voice.
But according to Tim, the story was that he was recruited by the Major, and shortly after Waco, actually during the siege of Waco, he met with the Major again for the second time in Niagara Falls, New York.
And at that time, the Major was ranting and talking about what a threat the right-wing militia and the patriot movement was to this country.
And he wanted McVeigh to read up and learn as much as he could, and that he would soon be called to action.
According to McVeigh, in January the following year, he was called to action, and he met up with an individual in New Jersey where he accepted $50,000, and that was the money that he took to begin his mission.
And he began his mission by going into the various gun shows and other places, and then he met some skinheads, and he met some of the people in the militias and the patriot movement, and that's also where he met Roger Moore, and then it progressed from there.
Well, slow down a little bit.
I think we've got some time here, or I hope we do.
Let's talk about exactly, you know, name some names.
Most of these have been in the public domain for a long time anyway.and the members of the Aryan Republican Army bank robbery team.
Right, but he actually met Roger Moore first, and then later after that he met first Andreas Strassmayer and Dennis Mahan at Elan City.
He also met the guys who went on to be labeled the Aryan Republic Army or the Midwest Bank Bandits, and that was in Elan City.
He met some of them at a gun show, initially at a gun show in Tulsa.
And so I guess, like you said, most of this story is already known.
I mean, what would you like me to comment on?
To be really honest with you, I think there's other people that were involved that are lesser known players than some of those.
Well, let's focus on that then.
Yeah, I'm sorry to set up a question so broad.
I just, it seems like the story of, it's been known for a long time.
Well, McVeigh called Elohim City here, and he seems to have maybe been a getaway driver for a bank robbery there.
And in the book there really is much more of a narrative about and then they robbed this, and then they went there, and the robbery of Roger Moore, and all of these things.
Well, anyway, I guess that's just a recommendation to read the book for anybody who wants that narrative.
But go ahead with your lesser known details there.
I'm interested.
Well, some that really caught my attention were some of the people that he associated with in Arizona.
And some of the skinhead group.
I mean, there's so many, it's either a hell of a lot of coincidences or what he told me was accurate.
Because based on the information that he told me about his time in Arizona and the ARA people being there and them doing dry runs in the desert, the ARA people that I'm talking about are Peter Langdon, Richard Guthrie, and Scott Stediford, Kevin McCarthy, and Michael Brezhnev.
He talked about other, he talked about, I guess I should back up here a moment, and he, McVeigh said that the major, the unit that McVeigh put together of people who could not be connected with the government could be from the right wing or the patron group or skinhead type people, people who hated this country.
But he also said that there were other small units, like the unit that he was putting together, that was doing other things towards the same mission, and that was to bring down these so-called people who hated the government.
And to him, at times, when he was talking about these things, it's almost as if he did believe that these people were a threat, that these groups, these elements were a threat, and it was like a call to duty for him to do something that would actually make a difference.
Then there were other times when it was as if he was one of them and he wanted to have been one of them.
Because he talked at length about his belief in the right to bear arms and the Constitution and how it had been perverted by certain legislation, especially back after the first World Trade Center bombing.
So at times he was a contradiction.
And there's many times when my conversations with him led me to believe this guy is quite an enigma because he was hard to pin down.
Part of that was spin.
Part of that was McVeigh's attempt to manipulate.
Part of it was just his personality, I think.
But the core thing, when I quizzed him a lot about Colburn, he met this guy through Karen Anderson and Roger Moore named Stephen Colburn who actually had a chemistry degree and had graduated from the University of California.
And he met this guy in the desert in Arizona.
And they were sort of kindred spirits when it came to their interest in building explosives and such.
And McVeigh had told me specifically that Stephen Colburn was his number one pick to make the bomb that he was going to use.
At the time when they were planning to make this particular bomb and what he needed to make a bomb, the exact location of where they were going to plant the bomb hadn't been decided.
The Murrell Building was one of several other choices that they were considering.
This is one of the parts where it seems like the story of Poindexter and the Major seems like it's just sort of stuck on top.
They already have their bomb expert right here.
And maybe he was an FBI informant or something like that.
The FBI could have, would have, should have known about him.
But why do you need the Major and Poindexter when you have Colburn?
And apparently he was pulled over with McVeigh fleeing from the scene of the crime.
And I specifically asked McVeigh about that.
And he would change the subject.
So it very well could be that Poindexter was a red herring.
I don't know if the so-called Major had any military connection.
I just know that McVeigh said that he did.
But I truly believe that someone did, was, and did finance the bombing.
And also that someone else was calling the shots.
Timothy McVeigh was not calling the shots in this thing.
If you knew him, you would know that.
I mean, I haven't met anyone who spent any amount of time with Timothy McVeigh who thought that he was smart enough to put this thing together.
I mean, if you, and certainly what he told us about making the bomb in Oklahoma City makes a whole heck of a lot more sense than to think that he built the bomb in Kansas and drove it all the way to Oklahoma City.
I also know that from reading documents and statements made by Terry Nichols that the bomb he described as having built or constructed with McVeigh was quite a bit different than the one that they described to his hometown newspaper reporters about the bomb that he says was the one that was at the Murrow building.
So apparently Nichols disagrees with McVeigh who disagrees with himself two or three different times as to how exactly the bomb was made.
But, well, I don't want to distract you off your point.
I've got plenty of questions, but go ahead.
Well, another big contradiction is McVeigh told us that Roger Moore was actually a part of supplying them with ingredients from time to time.
He didn't say that he supplied him with all the explosives.
And I never reported this or said anything about this previously in print.
I talked with other people about it, but I had no way of verifying whether or not Nichols, excuse me, that Moore could have been involved.
That is until Nichols came forward with a sworn declaration and with information that led the authorities to explosives that he says he took from Roger Moore when he robbed Roger Moore.
According to McVeigh, it was the ARA guys who robbed Roger Moore.
So obviously both of it couldn't have happened unless Nichols was working in cahoots with the ARA.
So that's another part of McVeigh's story that just doesn't matter.
My belief, Scott, is that probably the truth lies somewhere in the middle of what McVeigh told us, not the official story, not exactly what he told us.
When I say us, I'm referring to me and a fellow inmate here on death row because a lot of our conversations are probably, I would say, most of them were when there were the three of us together.
So when I talk about us, that's what I'm referring to.
And I've got to tell you, I've spent a lot of time wondering myself just what the truth is.
Well, McVeigh told you that that morning which members of the ARA ring were with him.
On the morning of the bombing, it was Michael Bresna and Richard Guthrie were in the truck with him and that Peter Langdon and Kevin McCarthy and Stediford were in a different vehicle scouting and doing what he called his security detail.
They were all in downtown Oklahoma City that morning.
They had spent the night at two different motels in Oklahoma City in what I would call the early morning hours of the 19th after completing the actual bombing, the bomb that was used at the bombing.
They completed that late in the evening of the 18th.
And he says it was constructed at a storage facility in Oklahoma City right off of West Reno and that the next morning that the people I just said were there.
He also at one point told me that the Major and Dennis Mahan were at the San Anthony Annex parking lot which overlooked downtown Oklahoma City so that they could view the bombing when it happened.
Obviously, I was never able to verify that.
I did have people go to this parking structure, to the top of the parking structure, and they say that you have a clear view from that side to where the Murrow building had been and that you can see the Regency Tower Apartments from there as well.
What I was able to verify is that Richard Guthrie had in his possession information about having met Dennis Mahan at a couple of blocks from where the Murrow building had been.
So this is all circumstantial stuff, but as with telephone records and other things, it puts McVeigh and the ARA members in various locations at the same time, so it just adds credence to what he told me in my mind.
What did he tell you about Andre Strassmeier?
That he actually ran the ARA people, that he ran that arm of it, and that Strassmeier and Dennis Mahan were involved in casing the Murrow building prior to the bombing and along with McVeigh, they are the ones that came to the conclusion that it would be the Murrow building that was the target, that they cased it several times in the fall of 1994 and then again in early 1995.
Even after they had already decided that that would be the target of the bombing, they cased it again after that.
He also told me that Strassmeier was instrumental in helping him get various explosives, as was Roger Moore, and that Strassmeier knew Karen Anderson and Roger Moore, and that's how he first met Strassmeier.
But Tim told me that he thought all along that Strassmeier was a part of another unit.
He didn't believe that Strassmeier was an ATF informant.
He believed that Strassmeier was pretty much doing the same thing that he was doing for the Major, only reporting to some other entity.
Did he explain how it was that all these neo-Nazis that he was hanging out with couldn't all just figure out that somehow he was a government agent playing them?
No, he never commented on it.
And he never suspected any of them of being informants or having been informants in the past.
Well, and it turns out...
I specifically quizzed him on that.
I mean, because if you stop and look at all the players, every single player in this whole thing that he laid out to me, with the exception of one, was at one time or another a federal government informant from one of the different agencies.
I mean, that's a verifiable fact with the law enforcement documents.
Sure.
Well, and I have them all on my website, and everybody will be able to find the link to all the Trinity documents.
One question to ask yourself, if that's the case, and we know it is, then how is it possible that the government could not and did not have prior knowledge of the bombing?
I mean, it escapes reality to think that you would have this many informants, and someone wasn't telling the government or law enforcement, hey, there's going to be a bombing.
We know Carol Howell did.
It's been made public, and for those who don't know who Carol Howell is, she was Dennis Mahan's one-time girlfriend and an informant for the ATF, who was later brought up on charges herself, so the government could try and quieten her.
To keep her quiet.
Well, and as you say in the book, you mention in the book, I think this is J.D.
Cash's journalism, that the ATF had a plan to arrest the neo-Nazis at Elohim City, but that the FBI, in fact, Bob Ricks, who was their spokesman during the Waco massacre, specifically was the one who told the ATF, no, which may be for good reason, they might have just gone in there and shot everybody, but he said, no, we'll handle this, but then they didn't handle it.
He didn't handle it at all, and I mean, not only was it just some of these neo-Nazis, but it was also Andre Stossmeier, who, as you said, J.D.
Cash later learned and was able to verify that he was, in fact, an FBI informant.
So, I mean, perhaps that's why Ricks intervened the way he did.
I mean, I know that there are deadly secrets, probably, at least some questions.
It does, in my mind, as I'm writing this book, I'm saying, okay, now, you're going to have all these people come at your credibility because of where you are and the story you're telling.
It doesn't mesh with the official version or the government's version of what's happening.
So you're going to have everyone fact-check everything you're saying.
So I was extremely careful what I wrote in the book.
The only things that we could verify by documents or by witnesses.
Well, you know, I saw on Court TV one time during the trial of Shane and Chevy Kehoe, who are famous for their giant shootout where nobody got hit on the side of the road with their blue and gray Suburban, which everybody's seen on real stories of the highway patrol over and over again.
But on Court TV, they talked about how one of the prosecution witnesses said that on the morning of the bombing, I forget if it was Shane or Chevy, the two brothers, came into his motel and turned on the TV real early, 6 o'clock in the morning or something, and said, leave it on CNN, something big's going to happen, and sat there waiting all morning, and then as soon as the news came across the wire about what had happened, he jumped for joy.
And there was no question that, I mean, to hear that prosecution witness tell an honest old motel operator, he certainly knew that something was going to happen that day, and he was one of these ARA bank robber guys.
I can verify for you that Timothy McVeigh did know, or at least said he did know, both Chevy and Shane Kehoe, as well as the Kehoe family, the mother and father, Gloria and Kirby, and that actually Shane was involved in certain aspects of some of the planning and some money to do with the Oklahoma City bombing.
And the motel that you're talking about, where Chevy Kehoe was on the morning of the bombing, was the Shadows Motel in Spokane, Washington.
And I actually wrote a whole chapter about the Kehoes and everything that McVeigh had told us about the Kehoes, but I elected to leave it out of the book because I wasn't able to verify.
There's actually far more connections than what you just mentioned, but I wasn't able to actually verify it.
So I left that part of the story out of the book.
And there's an important point there, which is so much of this is verifiable from other sources.
So you say right in your biography here, you're a lifelong career criminal, career con artist, and murderer.
And you're on death row right now.
And so everybody's got to take that with a grain of salt that they have to take it with, and you know that good and well.
But the important point I would emphasize is that a lot of these things are beyond question.
The narrative that you weave is a narrative that somebody else weaved to you, and he's a confessed mass murderer himself.
So people have to use their own discrimination to decide what it is that they believe about this.
But there's been a lot of good journalism out there to go along with something like this.
And again, I'll just mention for the listening audience just tuning in, it's David Paul Hammer, live from death row in Terre Haute, Indiana.
Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing.
What did Timothy McVeigh tell you about going to death over this?
When clearly if he had just started saying Brescia, Guthrie out loud, he could have been spared at least for a while.
Never mind the Major and Poindexter and all these mysterious characters.
Well, contrary to what's been portrayed or what he reported to the reporters, Tim was of two minds at least when he spoke with us about being executed.
One was the fact that he wasn't sure he was going to be executed.
He thought that the Major or someone from his unit was going to intervene and that he actually wouldn't be executed, that it would just feign, you know, it would just appear, and that the drugs would just feign execution and that he would be taken out.
And that's why he was so adamantly opposed to having an autopsy.
That was one of the issues that I dealt with on his behalf under my own cases, that you don't have to have an autopsy after an execution.
And I want a court order for that.
That was one of the things that I bargained with McVeigh about in order to get him to tell me what he said was the truth about the Oklahoma City bombing.
And I did that, and he didn't have an autopsy.
At other times, he seemed very afraid.
He seemed very frightened.
I don't care if this is a state-assisted suicide theory that he's put out there with some others.
He never raised that issue, that this was just a suicide thing.
And I specifically asked him why he didn't want to put the truth about the bombing out there and talk about others involved.
And he had various stories, but the main story that he kept coming back to is his image.
He wanted the public to believe that he was the mastermind, that he was the bomber, that he did it, and he alone did it.
And I told him that on many occasions, you know, I mention in the book how we would argue, we would debate.
At one point, he called me a rat, saying, you know, I had let him know that along the way I had spoken with Senator Charles Key, an Oklahoma State Senator who was part of the bombing committee back in early 2000, and that I had spoken with him and that I had planned to talk to him.
And McVeigh was adamantly opposed to me talking to this guy at the time because he was afraid what he was telling me was going to get out before his so-called official version.
And so, I mean, I don't want your listeners to think that, you know, this was just idle chatter or talk in prison.
I mean, this was very heavy stuff at times.
But as far as McVeigh being executed and what he thought, I honestly don't know at the end.
I mean, because he would change his mind literally from one week to the next, especially after he actually waived his appeals and there was no appeals.
But one thing jumped out at me, and I specifically talked to him about this.
You know, shortly before his execution, his execution was scheduled for, I think, the middle of May, and it actually didn't happen until June 11th.
But the first execution date was delayed when the FBI came forward and found all these documents and his attorneys.
Now, he had already waived all his appeals and said, OK, I'm ready.
Get this execution on.
Let's do it.
But when this happened, his lawyers convinced him, OK, hey, there's a chance you can live here.
Let us litigate this last-minute disclosure by the FBI.
And I told him, this is quite a contradiction.
If you're really ready to go and you've already waived your appeals and you had no plans of trying to pick them up, why are you allowing your attorneys now to litigate this stuff at the last moment, when you could do the same thing by coming forward and identifying all these people you've told us about who were involved with you?
That would at least postpone your execution.
He had no good answer for that.
Just another one of the contradictions that was Timothy McVeigh.
Have you seen the video that is purported to be Timothy McVeigh at a military base that was taken much later than he supposedly quit the Army?
And can you verify through your eye that that is, in fact, him?
I can tell you it looks like him.
Obviously, I can't say with 100% accuracy that it is.
But as you have, you've read the book, I can clearly point out the fact that not only according to McVeigh, but according to the Defense Department records, he had a secret clearance that didn't expire until 1996, some four years after he was out of the military.
And according to McVeigh, through the Major, he was allowed to go into some of these military bases.
At one time, he even contemplated stealing explosives from one.
So that is another thing that leads credence to the fact that maybe he was still in the military in some capacity.
Seems like he would have to have a really high clearance to be a secret agent on the level that he was claiming, though.
Recently, within the last few months, the Defense Department's Inspector General has come clean about the military doing domestic spying.
They spied on the National Alliance and other organizations, and they've had to come clean that that happened.
So it's not such a stretch to think that maybe some aspect of the Defense Department was still running McVeigh.
It's not that much of a stretch for me to believe, especially in this day and age, since what's happened since 9-11.
Who knows what happened before that?
To be perfectly honest, that's what I've always thought.
It's just that I figure the most extreme claims bear the most extreme scrutiny, or should.
But they certainly played it like it was their idea all along, as far as blaming the conservative movement in general.
Everyone on the right, basically, for being McVeigh's accomplice, as they continue to do to this day.
So there's no question about that.
I guess I'm sorry for just repeating myself.
It does sort of feel like the story of the major is just grafted on to the story of these guys did it, and the cops could never admit that they were all informants or state witnesses or provocateurs of one kind or another.
And so, hence the cover-up.
But then again, I'm not overruling it.
I certainly am not here to play defense attorney for the Pentagon, and I don't put anything past them as far as that goes.
You know, Jeff Trinidou, during the investigation of his brother's murder at the Federal Transfer Center in Oklahoma City, he did various Freedom of Information requests.
One that really jumped out at me that he received several years ago is how the Defense Department and the United States government purchased spy satellites from the Russians of the Elohim City, different parts of Oklahoma, after the bombing.
You know, that was the military doing that, military to military.
If the military had no involvement, why do that?
They might come forward and admit that they actually, the military, went and got these spy satellites from the Russians.
It was from private companies from the Russians.
Well, there's the judge's ruling on the CIA documents as well, that shows that the CIA helped the Department of Justice build their case, and that they were in contact with foreign embassies, probably the Germans, over Andrei Strassmayer and his involvement.
There's 302s and memos written in the hand of the director of the FBI, Louis Freeh, regarding the Aryan Republican Army and the Oklahoma bombing.
Well, one of the things that struck me when I first saw those documents, especially the Louis Freeh documents, and more recently the denial of the CIA documents, was that clearly they were involved in not only assisting the prosecution in building the defense against McVeigh and Nichols, but it seems to me that that could have also been used as part of the cover-up of Andrei Strassmayer, of his involvement.
I mean, they want to link the telephone call from McVeigh to Strassmayer.
Strassmayer supposedly wasn't at Elohim City when it happened, and someone else took the call.
But it gets back to, if you met a guy one time at a gun show, you're pulling off this big bombing, and you're going to ask him to hide you out when you don't even know him.
I mean, this stuff defies logic, and this is the official version.
And to me, it just defies logic.
There had to be more of a connection.
And I think, especially having quizzed McVeigh over and over and over again on Andrei Strassmayer, Michael Bueschner, and the other ARA members, I truly believe there was a connection there.
Now, if it was to the extent that McVeigh said, I have no way of knowing that.
But I mean, just like we explained in the book, the fact that Richard Guthrie was found hanging in his prison cell right after he talked to an L.A.
Times reporter, talking about the book, that he was going to expose things, that's another very creepy coincidence.
Well, sure, along with the whole Jesse Trinidad story, which is an angle I'd rather not go down just for time reasons, and the fact that we have covered it and will continue to cover it with Jesse on this show.
But tell us the story.
I think it's important to give you a chance to tell the story.
You claim in the book that the government told you they would commute your sentence to life if you wouldn't write this book.
Come on.
Well, I can tell you exactly what happened.
Actually, at this moment, I don't have a death sentence.
I'm still being held on death row.
In December of 2005, the judge in my case reversed the sentencing phase and ordered the government to give me a new sentencing trial.
So he threw out the death sentence and he informed the government that if they didn't file to seek another death sentence against me within 60 days, that he would impose a life without parole sentence.
When the government failed to do that, they appealed, and then the case wound through the appeals for about three years.
And last year, the appellate court ruled that they didn't have jurisdiction until after I was re-sentenced to some sentence.
Since that time, the government has been waiting to decide whether or not they are going to seek a death penalty against me again.
So back in September, two guys came.
They showed me badges.
They claimed to be FBI agents.
They told me that they knew I was writing the book.
I guess I should mention that as I'm writing this book, I have to give it to prison officials to copy.
I gave it to them a chapter at a time to copy.
When they would give me back the original and a copy, then I would send out a copy of the chapter and then I would keep the original.
And this went on throughout the process of writing the book.
So obviously prison officials knew I was writing the book and what the book was about.
And I started writing the book early last year.
So in September, like I said, it was towards the end of September, these two guys show up.
When I'm going out to a conference room where I meet with attorneys, usually I thought I was going out for a legal visit.
They showed me their badges and told me that they were with the FBI.
They talked to me briefly about the book.
They knew that I was writing a book about what it was about.
And they said, you know, if you don't write this book, we can guarantee that the government will not continue to seek the death penalty against you.
But if you insist on writing this book, then we will use the entire might of the United States government against you to ensure you get a death sentence.
And I asked, well, first of all, you can't make that decision.
Only the United States Attorney General can make that decision because it takes the U.S. Attorney General to authorize a federal death sentence prosecution.
And by the opposite side of that is he is the only one who can deauthorize a death prosecution.
And they said that they had the authority to provide me with that information.
And I said, well, you know, I have the authority to terminate this conversation.
I told the officers I was ready to go back to my cell.
I reported this stuff to my attorney, and I have filed under the Freedom of Information Act asking for copies of the logs to show who was visiting on that day, the identities of the individuals.
Any time you come to this, this is called the Special Confinement Unit Federal Death Row.
You have to go through the front of the prison and be escorted.
It's quite a procedure to get up to the unit.
And you have to sign numerous log books and that kind of thing.
So I have asked for that stuff under the Freedom of Information Act to find out exactly who was here that day.
And thus far, my FOI request has not been responded to.
But that's exactly what happened.
And as I said in the book, the book is my answer to that.
You know, I spent the last 32 years in prison.
I'm not in that great of physical health.
I really don't fear dying all that much.
That's going to happen to all of us at one point or another.
I already have life without parole.
I have 1,200 years, which is the equivalent of life without parole.
I'm never going to get out of prison.
I'm going to die in prison one way or another.
So I'm not going to allow the government to influence me, especially when they have gone to such lengths to shut me up.
I mean, you know, through the lawsuit that Jesse Trinidad filed, a federal judge approved for me to give a videotaped deposition, not only me but Terry Nichols as well.
And the Bureau of Prisons and the Department of Justice fought it.
They appealed it, and appeals court struck it down.
But, I mean, why?
What could I say?
Maybe Terry Nichols.
I don't know what Terry Nichols would say, but what can I say other than what McVeigh has told me?
What are they so afraid of?
They haven't allowed me to have a face-to-face media interview since 1999.
McVeigh's 60-minute interview was the last federal death row inmate who was allowed to be interviewed.
I mean, why?
It just doesn't make sense.
Well, and especially when a federal judge says, yes, Jesse, go and get a videotaped deposition of Hammer and of Nichols, and then an appeals court says no, when the Justice Department vigorously protests that you be allowed to say what you have to say on camera.
And I guess this goes a little bit of the way toward solving that.
Go ahead.
That's also the same appeals court that upheld McVeigh's and Nichols' death sentences.
Well, in McVeigh's case, the death sentence and Nichols' life without parole.
I mean, it's the same court.
I'm not saying that that had anything to do with it, but all of this happened to land in the Tenth Circuit, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit.
And some of the judges that decided that we couldn't give the videotaped depositions were also involved in the other appeals.
Tell me more about what McVeigh told you about the Aryan Republican Army ring, Kevin McCarthy and Brescia and Guthrie and Langen and the rest of these guys and their involvement in this bombing.
Well, first of all, McVeigh was one of the three initial bank robbers along with Peter Langen and Richard Guthrie.
And this was long before they actually took a title, or at least months before they took a title.
But there was the bank robberies that helped, to a lesser degree, funds from the bank robberies to fund their travels and the bombing plot.
And in February of 1995, they gathered close to Kingman, Arizona, about 80 miles from Kingman, Arizona, to do dry runs of planning, delivering the bomb, the bombing truck and surveillance, and to test their equipment.
But as the bombing date grew nearer, they all met up in the Kansas area, and there they assembled various parts for the bombing, ingredients.
They gathered them from, actually some of the ingredients were driven, according to McVeigh, by this guy named Poindexter from Arizona to Kansas, and then others were retrieved from various storage facilities, and then they were all put together and transported from Kansas to Oklahoma City, and that the AERA gang, as I'll call it, participated in those activities.
Also that Richard Guthrie worked on one of the vehicles, the second getaway vehicle that McVeigh had, which was the one he was arrested in, that when he went to rent the Ryder truck, which was actually used in the bombing, that Richard Guthrie was also there, and that he was security, and then that Michael Bresna was present also with McVeigh when he rented the truck, when he actually went to pick the truck up.
He had rented it a few days before.
And then that they all traveled to Oklahoma City in a caravan, and they built the bomb, and the next day, actually they were supposed to, two of the AERA members were supposed to have picked McVeigh up after the bombing, and they didn't show.
He didn't know why they didn't show, and so he had to get the Mercury Marquis, which he had as a second getaway vehicle.
And what did he tell you about that missing license plate?
He had a couple of stories.
One was he intensely took it off, and the other one was someone removed it.
Whenever I would pose the question to Tim that, you know, it appeared to me that he was somebody's patsy, he would go ballistic.
There's no way that he wanted whoever he was talking with to believe that he was always in control of the situation and that nothing happened by chance and that it was all planned.
Again, I think there was probably a little bit of truth in the middle.
According to Terry Nichols' sworn deposition, or sworn declaration, that he found the license plate tag or the car tag in a storage facility after the bombing and that he disposed of it.
So, I mean, he never, he being Tim, never really gave me a believable straight answer, although he did claim that it was always his intent to be arrested, but just not arrested at the particular time when he was.
That it was his intent that it was all part of the plan to be arrested so that it would lead back to the right-wing militia type individuals, which I didn't buy it.
I didn't buy it for a minute.
But he wanted to be arrested.
And now, did you know this story about the brown pickup truck being pulled over at the same time as Timothy McVeigh while he was still alive?
And did you ask him about that or did he explain that?
No, I didn't know it at the time.
I learned it later.
And I think I actually read it in a Houston Chronicle article, I think it was.
I didn't know about it at that time.
Which I've gone and, with the help of some Facebook friends, found the original article there, the Scripps Howard article that you refer to, which is quite revealing.
I do think that that's the supposedly Trooper Hanger's dashboard camera videotaped the truck in the far distance, and I believe that Jesse Trenadue has asked for a copy of that.
He's currently litigating a case to get a copy of that tape.
And they say in there that they enhanced it until they could read the license plate, and it was Colburn's truck.
But now, did Timothy McVeigh ever tell you the narrative of when he got pulled over and how it happened, and did he mention anybody else with him?
I guess in the book you say that he at least implies, most of the time, that Colburn didn't have anything to do with it, really.
He never ever said that Colburn had anything to do with it, other than giving him a list of ingredients that he would need to make the bomb of the type that he wanted to make.
And that was when he parted company with him in Arizona.
He never gave any indication that he was otherwise involved.
And, you know, I did know about Stephen Colburn at the time, and I actually quizzed him and he told me about, you know, it was a friend and what they did in Arizona.
But he never implicated him in any other way.
Talk to me some more about Roger Moore.
You mentioned him before.
He's the guy that testified, I think, against McVeigh, at least against Nichols, and was robbed of all his guns, et cetera.
Right.
Well, he definitely testified against McVeigh, and McVeigh would become vivid when talking at times about Roger Moore.
And just the fact that he never gave specifics, and just the fact that he would say he was far more involved than what anybody knew.
I think he somehow felt betrayed by the fact that he did go to law enforcement and cooperated with them and talked with them.
And somehow Tim had found out that Roger Moore was an informant, or at least he believed that he was an informant.
And, indeed, Tim at times, the same as he did with Michael Fortier, when he would talk about those guys, they could be right here in a cell right next to me.
But Roger Moore, according to Tim, the Roger Moore robbery was set up by Karen Anderson, Roger Moore's girlfriend, and that she actually wanted Roger Moore killed.
And they agreed to take a hit, they being the A.R.
Stossmeier, Brezhnev, Guthrie, and McVeigh agreed to take the hit on Moore.
But at the last moment, Stossmeier changed the script and had them just rob him and left him alive.
And he supposedly did that because he had recorded a conversation he had had with Karen Anderson.
And, again, that was an instance where McVeigh was, at first, livid over the fact that the script had been changed and he hadn't been consulted, but later he sort of saw it as a struck of, as he called it, genius on Stossmeier's part.
But, again, this totally contradicts what Nichols says, because Nichols says he robbed Roger Moore.
Well, now, McVeigh says that Stossmeier and Guthrie did it?
No, that Stossmeier set it up, but it was Richard Guthrie and Michael Brezhnev who did it.
Richard Guthrie and Michael Brezhnev.
Yeah, Stossmeier set it up, but not that he was actually there.
Tell me more about McVeigh himself, and I don't mean like in a kind of gospy way or whatever, but about, you know, as far as his believability to you, which I know it's just a subjective thing, people got to take it for what it's worth, but, you know, was this guy constantly trying to put you on and you were catching him?
Or most of the time, I don't know.
Go ahead.
Well, I would say this.
It would depend upon what the topic of conversation was and how much information he wanted to let out at any given point.
And, for instance, if he would give me a fact, and let's say he told me the truck was blue, and I was able to have people verify, no, the truck wasn't blue, it was brown, and I would come and confront him with that.
Tim, this is a lie.
And then he would come clean with whatever.
So there were times when I think he wanted to see if I had the ability to test the facts that he was giving me.
So I would say that part of the time I think he was very truthful, and part of the time I think he was just full of crap.
Tell me everything you know about different reports about the ATF, FBI, or even local police bomb squad observing these guys or observing the scene of the crime the night before or even the morning before.
I don't really know much about that at all.
I've read various things about it.
The most I know about it comes from Janie Coverdell, who lost her two little grandsons in the bombing.
She and I have become friends over the years.
And she was contacted by a police officer in a suburb of Oklahoma City who gave her details about the bomb squad being downtown Oklahoma City that morning and those things.
But it's all just second, third-hand information or stuff that I've read.
They never mention anything like that.
So I really don't know anything about it other than just that.
Okay, well, I guess I'll just chime in and mention that I think it's one of Charles Key's videos that he made back in the day where he has eyewitnesses saying that they saw the police there, apparently bomb squad, you know, some kind of specialty police there in the morning from about 7 to about 8.30 or something, and then apparently they left.
And then the bomb showed up at about 9.
That kind of thing.
But I don't know whether that's verified or sworn testimony or what.
Well, you know, there are so many parts of the investigation and the aftermath of the Oklahoma City bombing that leads any logical person to the conclusion that we don't know everything that happened.
We don't, from my way of thinking, we don't know the truth.
And I'm not saying that what they told me was the truth, but I think it was a version of the truth at the very least.
And I think it's really time for an investigation.
I mean, it's 15 years later, and this has to be, you know, as I point out in my book, this has to be one of the biggest cold cases ever.
And there are so many clues and there are so many things that seem, to me, that haven't been fully investigated.
And I'm not going to be able to get anyone to investigate it from death row.
It's going to take people out there, your listeners, people like you who have a voice, to get this message out.
And one of the things, as I was writing this book, I asked numerous people, you know, who really cares?
Does anyone really care after all this time?
And, you know, I have to believe that in this country, there have to be people who believe and who care.
If there's not, then it's a sad, sad day for America.
Yeah, well, indeed, it is.
And the thing is, there are some people who care.
And you're right, though, a lot of time has gone by.
A lot of water under the bridge since then.
You know, I mean, as I said, I've become friends with Janie Coverdell.
And her grandsons would be 18 and 20 years old if they were alive right now.
You know, they just had the memorial, the 15th anniversary just passed.
And, you know, so many lost so much.
But it seems to me that Oklahoma City and what happened there has been somewhat forgotten because of what happened on 9-11 in New York City.
And that's not to say that one is any worse or any better than the other because they were both horrible things.
But, I mean, the people in Oklahoma City, the country, everyone should still care about what happened 15 years ago because it very well could be that if lessons had been learned in Oklahoma City, 9-11 might not have happened.
Well, and specifically, I think it's worth mentioning that Rick Ojeda has told me on this show years ago about his leads that led him to Elohim City and his belief that there should be a real investigation of all of this very same stuff that we're talking about, or at least the Aryan Republican Army angle on it and Andre Strassmeier, et cetera.
And as you mention in your book, Danny Colson and Danny Deffenbaugh, two FBI agents who were on the second rung of this investigation, you know, in some kind of supervisory role but not the top guys, they have called for a new federal grand jury about this.
And so this isn't just the convicted con artist and murderer on death row here.
Again, there's a lot of corroborating evidence and information and points of view here that would seem to bear quite a bit of scrutiny.
Well, let me ask you, as long as I still have you here, what exactly is your motivation?
I mean, why do you care about the Oklahoma bombing?
Why should you any more than any other American who doesn't?
Well, you know, I care about the Oklahoma City bombing, but I care about people.
I care about people that it affected that I've come to know.
You know, I didn't start out just—it was more of a curiosity as to why McVeigh blew up the building.
I mean, when I first started talking to him about writing a book, it wasn't just about him.
I was going to write about death row and the various people here on death row, and so that's pretty much it for me.
There's something I want to ask.
Scott, what do you think about the Oklahoma City bombing?
Do you believe the official version?
No.
I mean, whatever J.D.
Cash says is what I believe.
I don't necessarily have it all in order in my head, and I have a million more questions than answers, but, I mean, to be honest, geez, it's been since at least 1995, 1996 that we've known about Carroll Howe, and, of course, a lot of the radical right, so-called, or the populist right, after taking the heat for it, of course, a lot of them, by way of, you know, association, a friend of a friend of a friend, they knew who did it, and they blamed, you know, if you read, for example, the John Birch Society stuff, as you know, the New American Magazine, they've been telling the real story about this all along, and mostly following J.D.
Cash's lead.
He's really the one that did the yeoman's work.
It's been clear to me all along that the neo-Nazis who, some of whom were cops, some of whom were informants and flip states witnesses, et cetera, were the conspirators who did it, and that there was a massive cover-up, and the only real question to me is whether the government did it on purpose and sent Strassmeier, et cetera, to make this happen, sent McVeigh to make it happen, as he told you, or, you know, whether that's kind of the more extravagant interpretation.
That's the part that remains unsolved.
But, no, of course, they've been lying from the very beginning.
I mean, from the time the ATF claimed to have actually been inside the building, when, of course, they weren't.
They lied from the first five minutes after the attack.
Well, one other thing that always struck me, and McVeigh was adamant about this, is that he needed a body count.
He needed, because I asked him, you know, I really quizzed him about the kids and how he could do that to the kids, and, you know, his standard stock response was, well, look at Waco.
But when you would quiz him, you know, more directly and engage him and say, okay, well, that happened at Waco, but how does two wrongs make a right, those kind of things.
But he was adamant that nothing would have changed and the mission would not have been successful unless there was a large body count.
And I said, Tim, this is not a body count.
These were innocent people.
They weren't armed.
You know, you weren't facing them like you were facing people in the Gulf.
This was a cowardly deed.
And, of course, that would set him off.
You know, how would you like to be sitting on a 7,000-pound bomb, et cetera, et cetera.
But, you know, that was one of the things that guides his so-called official story.
And the other thing is, I'll never forget this, and I wrote about it in the book.
One of the first conversations that they had with us here on death row as a group is when we were in the holding cell shortly after arriving here, and he made the comment about the score is 168 to 1.
And, you know, that was a killing comment.
It struck me as odd there.
It was not well received even amongst a group of convicted murderers sentenced to death.
Well, you know, as long as I still have you here, I'd like to ask you about something that's come up in the Jesse Trinidad documents, and that is this undercover operation called PATCON, Patriot Conspiracy.
And it seemed to be that was the code word for the investigation into bomb rob, the investigation into the bank robbery ring, that for some reason the name of that investigation has the word bomb in it.
Now, I guess maybe they might explain that away as saying, well, because they would use fake pipe bombs in their robberies, et cetera, like that maybe.
I don't know, but that's a side issue anyway.
But what about this PATCON?
What do you know about this?
Well, as you said, I just know about it through documents that Jesse Trinidad has uncovered.
And it seems to me that that could have very well have been the code name for the operation or part of the operation that McVeigh was involved in.
It seems to me that that would have been a way, the Oklahoma City bombing was a way to take away the heat that the government was feeling for what happened at both Ruby Ridge and at Waco.
And it was a way to turn the general public against the Patriot movement and those who believe, like David Koresh or Robert Millar at El Juan City and others of that ink.
So I believe that that could have been the beginning or at least the code name for the operation that McVeigh said he was involved in.
And now it's the documents that say PATCON at the top that mention the Southern Poverty Law Center.
And as you mention in your book, Morris Dease did confirm to J.D.
Cash that, yes, he did have informants inside Elohim City before the bomb.
Yes, and not only that, but there's also documentation that almost immediately following the bombing, the Southern Poverty Law Center notified the various law enforcement that this was a domestic terrorist operation.
They told them about Elohim City and the fact that their informants had heard there was going to be a bombing.
So there seems to be a connection there.
And what I found really fascinating once the documents came out was the teletype from the director, Louis Freeh, where he confirms the fact that the Southern Poverty Law Center had an informant in Elohim City and that the FBI knew it.
Well, and, you know, I've often wondered for years now, in fact, I've wondered why there I mean, maybe every alphabet agency just goes after something like this.
But it seems strange that there were so many documents that seem to originate or at least reference the Secret Service.
And perhaps that is explained by the Secret Service's investigation.
After all, they're under the Treasury Department and these guys were bank robbers, so they would be at least helping the FBI, perhaps, in looking into something like that.
And they had at least attempted to flip Peter Langen against Richard Guthrie, right?
And there was a whole Secret Service connection to the bank robbers from that angle.
Well, there were.
There was.
And, of course, they claimed that their interest in Richard Guthrie was an alleged assassination plot against the first President Bush, and that that was their interest in him, at least initially.
But that doesn't, you know, there are over a thousand pages of documents from Secret Service investigations, and that doesn't explain why they would have been involved in investigating the Oklahoma City bombing as well as the ARA and that group.
And also, all the time while officially the FBI and others were disavowing any connection between the ARA and the Oklahoma City bombing or Timothy McVeigh or the various players, we now know from all these documents that they were investigating the two separate groups, the McVeigh group and the ARA group, or the bombing and the robberies.
They were connecting them as early as April of 1995.
So, you know, why disavow that publicly, especially why disavow it once you had the ARA members in custody, or at least most of them in custody?
It just doesn't make any sense, unless they knew there was a connection in advance and they were trying to protect their informants.
Well, and you know, one of those, as you know, one of those Secret Service documents is the proof, or at least strong compelling evidence, that it's a description of what can be seen in one of the videotapes.
And, of course, it includes a second John Doe with McVeigh as the truck is parked and as they flee the scene of the crime.
Well, you know, I have no doubt that someone was with McVeigh on the morning of the bombing.
And I have come to believe, not only based on what McVeigh told me, but based on other documents, witness statements, people who saw more than just McVeigh in the truck, I have come to believe that it was Brezhnev and Guthrie.
And if that's the case, then, you know, why won't the government just admit that, okay, we didn't get everyone?
We made a mistake, and go after those who are still alive but haven't been brought to justice.
And I think that's what the people in Oklahoma City want, and that's what people all around the country should want.
I know that that's what Janie Coverdell and people like Mrs. Coverdell want to see happen.
And, you know, they strongly believe that others were involved and weren't brought to justice.
And if what McVeigh told us is true, then that's factual.
And, you know, if you look at the whole Andre Strassmaier situation and how he was, you know, he had warrants out for his arrest at the time of the bombing, and as we alluded to or talked about earlier, you know, they had a sting operation ready to go in and arrest him, and the FBI spokesperson called it off, it just doesn't pass the smell test.
Well, and that's another thing that has Louis Freeh's signature on it, is a document titled Oak Bomb in the category at the top, the name of their investigation there, and it's about Andre Strassmaier and his progress in fleeing the country in the summer of 1995.
Right, before the FBI or any other law enforcement ever questioned him.
And then the only people to ever question him from the government was a telephone call from a prosecutor and, I believe, an FBI agent after he was already back in Germany.
I mean, having dealt with the criminal justice system for many, many years, I know that's just not how it works.
Well, and again, as you point out in your book, Andre Strassmaier all but admitted his role to, or, you know, maybe he was bragging about something he didn't do, to Ambrose Evans Pritchard of the London Telegraph, the author of The Secret Life of Bill Clinton, where he talks about how easy it was to infiltrate the right and basically comes right to the edge of admitting his role in it, and then he chokes and says, I gotta go.
I remember several years ago when I was investigating this thing with J.D.
Cash and Jesse Trinidou and others, we thought we had it set up at one point for Strassmaier to provide us with a written declaration, but it fell through.
We were supposedly engaging with his girlfriend on his behalf, and things fell through, but I know there have been some reporters that have interviewed Strassmaier, and I don't think he's been able to keep his story straight either.
Well, Scott, it's been good talking to you.
I'm going to have to get off the phone here.
Well, I sure appreciate your time.
You're more than welcome, and thanks for telling people about my book.
All right, everybody, once again, that is David Paul Hammer, McVeigh's former celly, so to speak, on Death Row from Terre Haute, Indiana.
The book is called Deadly Secrets, Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing.
