02/27/15 – David Hardy – The Scott Horton Show

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Our next guest on the show today is David Hardy, and he is the author of the book, This is Not an Assault, Penetrating the Web of Official Lies Regarding the Waco Incident.
Welcome back to the show.
How are you doing, David?
Oh, pretty good.
Thank you.
Anyway, so listen, Michael McNulty has died.
Who was Michael McNulty, David?
Mike was probably the man most responsible for reopening the whole Waco investigation in an official sense.
He was a filmmaker from Colorado.
He was producer of a film, Waco, the Rules of Engagement, and later directed two more films on Waco that I recall.
Anyway, he became extremely interested in Waco and engaged in a number of investigations spread over years.
And one of the most critical ones was that he convinced the federal prosecutor, prosecutor of the Davidians, to let him into a warehouse that was unknown until that point outside of the government.
There was an entire warehouse full of evidence.
And in it, he found evidence that burned out pyrotechnic gas grenades.
They're basically pyrotechnic and non-pyrotechnic tear gas projectiles.
And the non-pyrotechnic ones are designed for use against buildings.
The pyrotechnic ones are not, because they'll start fires.
They burn a gunpowder-like mixture to shoot the tear gas dust into the air.
And they can set things on fire if they wind up wedged up against something that's flammable.
So on the packages, it says, do not use against buildings.
Well, he found some burned out in there.
Somebody had been shooting pyrotechnic tear gas that day into the Davidian house.
So that was an absolutely critical discovery.
And it played a role in the subsequent appointment of a special prosecutor, which didn't yield much results, but it at least kept the investigations alive.
So that was Mike's role.
He summed up very briefly a role that extended over many years.
All right.
Now, so there's a lot to get back to there, but we got a little bit of time.
But if you could, can you tell me about your history with him, how you met him?
And do you know the story of how it was that Mike became interested in doing a documentary about the Waco massacre in the first place?
How he became interested?
He once mentioned to me that it had something to do with his Mormon faith.
He's Latter-day Saints, and that in the early history of that church, there were conflicts between them and local and eventually federal government aimed at destroying them or driving them out of the areas where they were.
And he became sympathetic to the situation in Waco, which faced much the same attempt to destroy or drive out a religion that was out of mainstream at the time.
And I first met him, I must have known him before this.
And he once told me we'd met at a gun show, but I can't sum it up in any memory of that.
I met him during the House of Representatives hearings on Waco in, I think it was 1995.
He and his director, William Gizzecki, had a camera crew there to film various witnesses.
Actually, they were filming in a hotel room, but they were very good at laying out the camera so it wasn't obvious.
They had some congressmen in and also a lot of the witnesses who testified came over and were filmed.
And I remember he showed me a photograph, an aerial photograph taken of the Davidian place Mount Carmel, while the armored vehicles were assaulting it, where they had basically at that point destroyed the portion at the back called the gym.
And he showed it to me and said, well, what do you see?
Well, I'm very nearsighted.
So I took off my glasses so I could focus down close.
And I said, oh, you found a body.
And he said, what body?
And I said, well, why were you showing this to me?
And he said, that big red splash at the back, I think it's blood.
And I said, no, no, it's a red flannel lining of a coat.
There's somebody down on the ground, face down.
And his arm, his right arm seems to be caught in the tracks of the tank.
It must be backing up because his arm is being pulled up toward the sprocket.
And I looked at it with a magnifying glass and said, I've been looking at this for weeks.
And it takes a blind man to tell me what's in it.
Then he called for the autopsy of one of the Davidians, Jimmy Riddle.
Jimmy Riddle was found dead with a bullet wound and his right arm traumatically amputated, the right arm never being found.
And the evidence was that, well, the photograph of the body in place showed that its clothing was only slightly singed, but it was inside the building, which meant that the wooden floor would have burned underneath it and the whole building collapsed on it.
But clothing only slightly singed.
It was fairly obvious the body died outside the building.
And after the fire died down, his body was laid back inside.
And that was critical because one of Mike's theories was that there had been shooting from the government positions on the last day of the siege, the day of the fire.
So it was a rather interesting discovery.
Yeah.
One note from those days, Gazecki told me that he filmed in Hollywood, so he's accustomed to dealing with big egos.
And he said, but the ones here in Washington make those look like nothing.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's real power over there on the East Coast.
Now, OK, so I want to mention here, if people go to Scott Horton dot org slash documentaries and I guess you got to go to page two or three to find them, I got quite a few there for you, but you can find YouTubes of all three of these movies now.
It's Waco, The Rules of Engagement, Waco, A New Revelation.
And then the third one is called The FLIR Project and The FLIR Project.
It's only that one's not really a documentary film as much as it's a 30 minute beyond a shadow of a doubt kind of proof.
Of what you see in the most controversial aspects of the first two, which is what you were just referring to there, David, the the federal agents shooting people at the back of the house.
And and it goes to and it's and it's a refutation of that 1999 investigation by Senator John Danforth, the former Senator Danforth that you mentioned there, and shows how that was really nothing but obstruction of justice.
That was an absolute, you know, contrived.
They set up a test to mimic the conditions, only they deliberately set up the test to fail in the most obvious way.
And and McNulty definitely showed that in The FLIR Project.
And just briefly, they what they had done was they sprayed water all over the ground to keep all the dust down.
They gave the guys in the test rifles with extra long barrels to suppress the flash.
And also gave them flash suppressant ammunition.
And then they there are a couple other things wrong with the description to use the wrong cameras.
And then they said, OK, action now, let's see if we can replicate exactly what we see in the FLIR footage from the from the day of the fire.
And of course, it doesn't replicate it at all because they set it up to fail.
And then that was their that was their excuse that there was no gunfire at all, they claimed.
Oh, yeah, yeah, I remember all that stuff.
You know, there was another FLIR, which should explain infrared imaging, forward looking infrared.
There was another analyst hired by the government House Committee on Government Reform, Carlos Gigliotti.
And he did he was a real expert in the field and he went over it and said, yes, those are gunshots from the government positions.
Dr. Edward Allard, too, who had helped invent it.
It is shown in the in the films talking about it as well.
I'm sorry to interrupt right there, but we got to take this break.
But when we get back, we'll talk more with David Hardy about the late just recently died Mike McNulty and his heroic work on the Waco massacre.
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All right, so welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton talking with David Hardy about Mike McNulty.
And from reading Bovard and from reading this New York Times piece that you sent along here, I'm only just recently learning how much of a role you played in helping Mike McNulty get all this information that ended up in the movie.
And I'm sorry, I haven't read your book.
I don't think I even knew about it from back when I was reading Waco books.
And I've read quite a few.
Oh, yeah.
But anyway, so so thanks for that.
And you want to talk about how it was you guys worked together, especially, I guess, on the second one to get the the real proof nailed down in Waco, a new revelation, right?
Yeah, well, we had worked pretty well.
I see my skill as I was an attorney.
So from my standpoint, bringing a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit was, well, you're out of pocket the filing fee and that's it.
From there on, you can do the work yourself.
And also, I'd been a government employee.
I was a GS-14.
And so I handled the Freedom of Information Act from the other side.
So I knew it from both ends.
Mike on the other hand was a great investigator.
And so he would dig up something, come back to me and go, can we get this?
And I'd take off on the legal end.
And when I got it, I'd send it to him because he was doing all the investigation.
Probably the best example of that was, in fact, the warehouse full of evidence.
I started in with a Freedom of Info request to Department of Justice.
Department of Justice responded, we don't know anything about that warehouse.
It's presumably under the jurisdiction of the Texas Rangers who collected the evidence.
So I sent a request to the Texas Rangers and they responded, what is it?
They responded, no, that's not the case.
When we picked it up, we were acting as deputized federal officials.
So it actually does belong to the Department of Justice.
So then I packed that up and sent it to the Department of Justice and said, apparently you do own it.
And they wrote back and said, no, no, it's the, was it the federal marshals?
So I wrote the federal marshals and they said, no, Texas has it.
Well, by the time we got all of that together, it was obvious there was this whole warehouse full of evidence and the federal and state agencies were passing it back and forth.
And let's see, now someone, Bob, a friend of mine in Texas, friend of ours in Texas, Bob Bear, got to another shooter.
They were in a shooting match and he told what was going on.
And the shooter knew, I don't know how to remember his name.
Now this Bob Bear, not the former CIA officer on CNN all the time.
No, no.
Just making sure there.
He's a Texas oil explorer, that sort of thing.
Anyway, the Bob Bear's friend got to a Texas official whose name slips my mind at the moment, but he knew the head of the Texas Department of Public Safety, who was over the head of the Rangers.
And so that guy broke the story open at that point that there were some serious problems here.
And got, I think he talked to the judge in the civil case where the Davidians were suing and said, essentially, we have an entire warehouse full of evidence that no one has seen before.
And so that was how we related on one level.
And Mike, in turn, did get into the warehouse himself, taking the direct route.
But we wanted access to the stuff where we could actually make copies of it and that sort of thing.
But that was it.
It took, I think it was three years of Freedom of Information Act requests and lawsuits before we had something approaching the real thing.
Well, I think that's just such a great advertisement for activism in general.
If people don't do the work, it doesn't get done.
That evidence was just going to sit there if it hadn't been for you and him doing what you did.
So, you know, I hope people are picking up on that lesson there.
It's a very important one.
And I want to get back to what you're saying about the pyrotechnic rounds, because as part of that same cover-up, you know, reinvestigation, so-called in 1999, aside from the faking of the test of replicating the machine gun fire, they also, I think, latched on to a few incendiary rounds that had been fired earlier in the morning.
And there was one that was a picture of one that had landed in a puddle of water, or at least at some point a puddle of water was created around it, maybe.
But anyway, and they said, yes, we did fire a few incendiary rounds, but that was way before the fire.
And none of it was at the origins of the fire.
None of the ones fired.
And they had the records, apparently, to prove it.
And so, OK, big deal.
And yet that was an entire red herring, because as you're talking about, what you guys found, what Mike found at the DPS evidence room, the Rangers evidence room, were these pyrotechnic rounds that delivered tear gas that were not the more sophisticated military incendiary rounds, but could still light a house full of children on fire, all right, and that those three were all found at the origins of the fires?
Yeah.
And the clues were out there, because when they testified before the house, the Davidian Clive Doyle talked about the incoming tear gas rounds and how they landed under furniture, and he could hear them hissing.
Well, only pyrotechnic rounds hiss.
The other type do not.
And he suggested that they throw them out of the building.
And one guy said they're too hot to pick up.
Again, that's only true of a pyrotechnic round.
So there was direct evidence.
And Clive didn't even know what he was saying at the time.
He didn't understand the difference.
But clearly, pyrotechnic rounds were getting inside the building.
And it just goes to show how cynical these people are with their ridiculous lying cover up, as though we can't tell the difference between the rounds.
Because remember now, everybody in the chronology here, McNulty found the pyrotechnic rounds, and then they said, oh, look, everybody, incendiary rounds.
After we already knew that's not what the claim was in the first place, and they pretended that that debunked it.
So John Danforth is just simply a despicable liar.
It's a scientific fact.
And there's no way around it that he was lying.
And he knew he was lying.
Well, it would really hack me off about the Danforth investigation more than anything else.
He they only took action against one federal employee.
They prosecuted him.
And you know who that was?
Bill Johnson, the Davidian prosecutor who let Mike into the warehouse.
Yeah.
They drummed up a charge against him of perjury or something like that, because he left one page off one document.
Everybody else in that case, some of whom committed serious perjury and provable on paper, they said, oh, well, mistakes were made.
Yeah.
So the only guy they went for was the only honest man in the bunch.
Yeah, of course.
All right.
Well, again, back to McNulty.
We're out of time here, but I'll let you have the last word about the honor of Mike McNulty and the great work that he did here.
I join with everybody else who describes him to simply say he was a great patriot.
I mean, this man broke the Waco case open and he did it working usually at his own expense over a period of five or 10 years.
I mean, he just would not stop.
And without him, that investigation would never been reopened.
And we never know three quarters of the things we now know about Waco.
All right.
Thank you so much, David.
Appreciate it.
Yeah.
All right.
So that's David Hardy.
This is not an assault is his book.
And tomorrow's the anniversary of the raid, 22 years.
So go watch Waco, the rules of engagement, et cetera.
Please.
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