12/17/14 – Bob McCarty – The Scott Horton Show

Hey, Al Scott Horton here to tell you about this great new book by Michael Swanson, The War State.
In The War State, Swanson examines how Presidents Truman, Eisenhower, and Kennedy both expanded and fought to limit the rise of the new national security state after World War II.
If this nation is ever to live up to its creed of liberty and prosperity for everyone, we are going to have to abolish the empire.
Know your enemy.
Get The War State by Michael Swanson.
It's available at your local bookstore or at Amazon.com in Kindle or in paperback.
Click the book in the right margin at scotthorton.org or thewarstate.com.
All right, y'all, welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton and it's my show, The Scott Horton Show.
Coming up on the show, Eric Margulies to talk about Pakistan and Cuba today.
And I'm still working on Global Post Lady on that Iraq story, but anyway, we'll see what happens.
Next up is Bob McCarty.
He's at bobmccarty.com.
That's M-C-C-A-R-T-Y.
And he's the author of Three Days in August, The Clapper Memo, and The National Bet.
Welcome back to the show.
How are you doing, Bob?
Great, Scott.
Thanks for having me.
Very happy to have you here.
Very happy to have you paying attention to this Oklahoma City bombing case, which means basically you're pulling the slack of every other journalist in America who couldn't give a damn about this, but it's incredibly important to me.
It always will be.
And you have taken the opportunity of this FBI agent getting himself in trouble.
A cop was arrested for something?
I've never heard of that before.
So there's something interesting right there.
But the cop who was arrested has a tie to the Oklahoma City bombing case that's going, well, a Oklahoma City bombing case that's going through the courts right now.
Opportunity for you to bring it back up.
Opportunity for me to have you back on the show to talk about it.
So who is Agent Adam Grant Quirk?
FBI agent Adam Quirk, he's notable in this Oklahoma City bombing trial because he was recently alleged to have engaged in witness tampering with one witness that was supposed to testify during Jesse Trinidad's trial.
Of course, he denied it and the FBI denies it, but that's the same FBI that last month was threatened by the federal judge to be held in contempt of court for not following his orders and conducting thorough searches of their evidence inventory for materials that Jesse Trinidad has been trying to get for more than five years now.
So this FBI agent, after allegedly engaging in witness tampering, over the weekend he allegedly engaged in assaulting his girlfriend in a very painful and ugly sort of way out there in Salt Lake City where the trial is taking place.
So, you know, either way you slice it, this guy's getting hit, coming and going left and right with bad news.
Well, he's under a lot of pressure right now.
Now, I'm sure you've seen all the same e-mails as I have from the court documents in this case where there seems to be, you know, I don't know exactly the legal definitions or whatever.
That's the other Scott Horton, that's the lawyer.
But it sure seems like probable beyond the shadow of something that there actually was some improper communication between this FBI agent and this former FBI asset, if I understand it right, that yes, you should take every opportunity you can to avoid testifying in this trial.
He's not allowed to do that.
No.
But I read his e-mail saying that.
Yeah, that's what really I think set the judge on fire because, you know, basically the FBI agent said it'd be best if you take a vacation and don't show up to testify, you know, or else.
What's the or else there, which for citizens of this republic, you know, or else, those are two huge words infringing on your civil liberties.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We're talking about a government agent here.
It's not just a person talking to someone, which that's still a credible threat, but a government agent making a threat like that is not threatening individual action.
They're threatening bringing down the weight of the state against you, an entirely different question.
Much more dangerous.
So, OK, so now get to.
And of course, we're having to work backwards in a short amount of time on this story here.
But thanks for humor in me.
Who is it that Agent Adam Grant Quirk was trying to encourage to not go to court and testify?
And why might he be doing such a thing?
The guy's name is John Matthews.
And according to the documents that Jesse has presented to the court over so long, he was engaged as an FBI informant back in the days before the Oklahoma City bombing.
He was allegedly an informant inside a white supremacist group that some believe has a tie to the Oklahoma City bombing conspiracy.
And, you know, whether he does or not, I haven't decided.
But Jesse thinks he does.
And he wanted to hear this guy testify in court because for those not familiar with why there is an Oklahoma City bombing trials, you know, going on now, what, nearly 20 years after the the event took place, it's because Jesse Trinidad is trying to find out why his brother was killed in federal custody several months after the bombing.
And he's trying to get copies of videotapes that would show John Doe, number two, and possibly others getting out of the Ryder rental truck in downtown Oklahoma City seconds before the bombing.
And the FBI, though documents show the FBI had possession of the videotapes.
And local officials, you know, testify that they had seen the videotapes that showed more than what the FBI says.
More people than what the FBI says were in the truck.
The FBI has kept those tapes, denied they exist.
Even after paperwork showed they did, they denied the tapes exist.
Even after other witnesses said they'd watched the tapes and they denied having any knowledge of where the tapes are, even though all records point to the FBI evidence storage areas.
So Jesse's fighting this.
He's going to win, I think, in the long run.
It's just it's kind of like legal jihad.
How long will the FBI force him to fight?
It's it's going on well over five years now.
Well, and I think I don't know exactly how unprecedented I think I read that.
It's unprecedented that he has now taken a FOIA case all the way to trial further than any FOIA case has gone before or something like that.
And he's suing for the right to search through the evidence lockers himself.
I'll find the damn tape.
Right.
Right.
And, you know, he not only is following that line, but he's asked the judge, the federal judge, not just a Salt Lake City judge.
He asked the federal judge to appoint a special master to oversee, you know, the court's relationship with the FBI, because the FBI has been acting in such an untoward manner and disrespectful manner toward the court.
Right.
Yeah.
And that's one thing about this judge is he's way out there in Utah.
And apparently for some reason has it in his head that he's somewhat independent from the Justice Department and doesn't tend to see things their way for years on end here.
Now, it's a damn near miracle in this day and age.
And and and I want to get back to what you mentioned there real quick, just for people who have no idea how the Oklahoma bombing has anything to do with this.
What you mentioned there about Jesse trying to find out who killed his brother and why his brother kind of trying to do the most likely explanation.
Jesse seems to think.
And this also is according to a letter that he got from Timothy McVeigh and was also J.D. Cash, the investigative reporter's conclusion that the federal agents must have.
It's still speculation, but they must have mistaken Kenneth for a man named Guthrie, Richard Guthrie.
And he had the exact same red headed mullet and upper body build and dragon tattoo and was coming across the border from Mexico in the same kind of red pickup truck.
And it was just the most perfect case of mistaken identity possible where this guy just fit the other Guthrie's description in such a tight way that the feds must have just convinced themselves that that's who this was.
And then it was in their interrogation of this Oklahoma City bombing suspect that he ended up in a fight for his life and lost it.
And of course, Guthrie, the real Guthrie, died in his prison cell just a few months later of another supposed suicide that they tried to claim this one was, too.
Right.
They tried to claim he committed suicide after breaking so many bones that I doubt if he could have stood up, more or less hung himself.
But you're talking the real Guthrie now?
No, I'm talking Kenneth.
Kenneth.
I'm sorry.
Too many he's now.
Hold it one second.
We've got to take this break.
When we get back, we'll have more with Bob McCarty on the heroic Jesse Trinidad fighting for justice in the case of the death of his brother, Kenneth, and for the truth of the Oklahoma City bombing.
And we'll be right back after this.
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All right, guys, welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton.
I'm talking with Bob McCarty.
He's at Bob McCarty dot com.
Author of the Clapper Memo.
And this article is a short blog entry.
FBI agent accused of witness tampering arrested not for witness tampering as OKC bombing trial continues in federal court in Salt Lake City.
So try to make a long story short.
All these different crimes within crimes.
Part of the cover up of the Oklahoma City bombing continues to this day with this FBI agent telling his former asset informant guy by e-mail to not show up in court, even though he subpoenaed to be a witness for Jesse Trenadue in his trial to get the judge to force the FBI to allow him to go digging through their evidence lockers to look for the tapes that they swear they can't find of multiple John Doe's with McVeigh at the moment of the attack.
Getting out of the writer truck with McVeigh at the moment of the Oklahoma City bombing attack because they killed his brother, Jesse's brother, in a possible case of mistaken identity, thinking that he was apparently thinking he was this guy, Richard Guthrie, who may have been responsible, partly responsible for the bombing and setting Jesse on what Bob called this legal jihad.
I guess that's their their legal jihad against him.
He's he's defending himself or they're they're forcing him to just fight absolutely tooth and nail every step of the way for more than a decade now to get a little bit of truth and justice in the case of his brother and the bombing.
And and boy, wouldn't that be something, Bob, if we could actually see the videotape of McVeigh and his co-conspirators getting out of that truck that day?
It would be.
And, you know, people did see that tape and they've been interviewed by several authors and other investigators, you know, put out books about it.
But the FBI would rather it be kept secret because it destroys the narrative that has been pushed ever since Bill Clinton was in office, that this was a, you know, a homegrown terrorist, i.e.
McVeigh and Nichols.
It was a homegrown terror activity and, you know, that's all there was to it.
But, you know, if if John Doe number two actually comes out or others come out in that tape, then it tells us that the administration then and really everyone since then has been lying about the truth of the Oklahoma City bombing.
Well, yeah.
And you and I have differed before on the matter of homegrown or not.
I've been paying attention to this ever since 1995 and and almost immediately after the bombing, other right wingers, militia types, patriot movement types, the John Birch Society and all of these people on the, you know, outside of the acceptable Republican conservative movement on the right.
They all immediately were saying, come on, it was Dennis Mahon and Andre Strauss Meyer did it.
Everybody knows that basically every patriot movement, non Nazi was saying it was the Nazis.
Everybody knows it was the Nazis.
And then, of course, it turns out that the Nazis, they were all compromised by the feds.
But that means that the feds were all compromised by them, too.
They were all a bunch of informants and flip states, witnesses and other people that the feds had made deals with at one time or another.
The ATF was going to roll them up and the FBI stopped the ATF from rolling them up before the attack happened.
And so they had to cover it up.
And in fact, in the new book, Oklahoma City by Gumbel and Roger Charles, they got great quotes from members of the Justice Department describing in detail the fight inside the Justice Department over whether we want to just pin it on McVeigh or whether we want to go after the rest of these guys, too.
And they decided, no, let's not.
And so I know you think that it's Hussein, Husseini and the brown pickup truck and all of that.
I think the brown pickup truck belonged to the Arizona gold miner, neo-Nazi fellow traveler.
And, you know, even when they executed McVeigh.
Oh, by the way, a neo-Nazi leader was being executed that day, April 19th, 1995.
And it was also the anniversary of a previous attempt to attack a federal building in Oklahoma by those same Nazis.
And the day McVeigh was executed, he had his head shaved to the skin.
And everybody said, oh, wow, that's interesting.
It's almost like he's a Nazi or something.
And they decided to pin the entire bombing on the entire American right wing and especially the militia movement.
But really, anybody to the right of Rush Limbaugh was said to be responsible for the damn thing.
But when it came to the actual Hitler loving Nazis who did it, they all got away with it scot free.
And it was because they were all already in trouble with the cops.
The cops knew them and they knew the cops.
And so what a messy story to tell.
You know what?
Let's give them O.J. Simpson instead.
They'll eat that up.
Oh, well, that's a stretch.
But yeah, I like it.
Hey, I mean, I'm not saying they made O.J. did it.
I'm just saying that was the reason nobody cared about the Oklahoma bombing after it happened is because everybody cared about the O.J. trial instead.
That became the true crime story of 1995 and 1996, as opposed to the Oklahoma bombing story.
Which if O.J. had never done that and the reporters had had nothing else to do but wonder about what this Carol Howe lady was saying and whatever, we might have seen a couple of 2020 episodes more and seen a difference made at the time.
Well, you know, I haven't read Rogers Charles book, but I did read Jaina Davis's.
See, that's my problem.
I haven't read hers, but I have read his.
So you and I need to have a meeting someday and read each other's recommended reading, I think.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, Jaina Davis, she pinpoints Iraqis who came over here through asylum, but they were actually members of the Iraq Revolutionary Guard.
And, you know, she traced where they lived, the businesses they ran, how they were involved.
And, you know, I think it's as credible an explanation as any anyone could.
And, you know, the guy that really applauded her work was the guy who served as a chief investigative counsel during the Clinton impeachment hearings.
A guy named David Shippers, an attorney in Chicago.
And, you know, yeah, but so did the raving lunatic and former FBI director.
I mean, CIA director under Bill Clinton, World War Four, James Woolsey, who right after 9-11 went to Britain to compare fingerprints to try to prove that Ramzi Youssef was not Ramzi Youssef, bin Laden's man, but was an Iraqi imposter.
And this is all tied up with Judith Miller, the lady that hoaxed us into war with all the weapons of mass destruction lines.
She was like the mentor to Jaina Davis in putting all this together and implicating Iraq in this.
The American Enterprise Institute guys, you know, is Dick Cheney's wife, is the head endorsement on Laurie Milroy's book, Saddam Hussein's Unfinished War with the United States, that tries to pull the same stunt and say that Al-Qaeda is just a front for Iraq and did Oklahoma.
Come on.
Well, you know, obviously you didn't read, this is, you know, off the subject, but the New York Times published a piece just a few, a couple months back.
But, OK, so there were weapons of mass destruction.
Oh, yeah, but those were all leftovers from the Reagan era.
That was why the Bush administration didn't publicize them.
None of those were manufactured after 1991.
All of those were declared and just duds and leftovers from the Reagan era when Saddam Hussein worked for the United States of America and was buying those weapons from our European allies with our tax money.
Well, we could talk for a long time.
None of that verifies a thing that they said about, a thing that they said about active weapons to manufacture chemical or biological or nuclear weapons anywhere or a warehouse anywhere full of weapons to use.
And we're talking about duds found in the ground that soldiers went, oh, look.
But all of it declared to the international inspectors, all of it known by the international inspectors.
Same as the uranium that was there under IAEA lock and key.
Everybody knew it was there.
They later moved it to Canada and everybody said, oh, look, uranium.
But it wasn't secret uranium.
It was uranium left over under seal, left over from the 80s when Saddam Hussein was a good guy.
Fighting Iran for us before we fought him for Iran under Bush in the name of fake weapons of mass destruction.
You know that, come on, right?
You remember the last decade, don't you, Bob?
I do, and I was actually in the Air Force at the time we first went to war.
In the first Gulf War?
Yeah.
Yeah, so you know that they discovered his nuclear program after that war and they completely destroyed it and that no part of it ever came into existence again after 1991.
That's in the Dulfur Report.
Wow.
While the government was claiming that, oh, look, he's buying these centrifuges for his active nuclear weapons program.
Come on, they were lying.
I won't try to argue with you on this.
I'm sorry we got off on the tangent, man.
It was supposed to be an Oklahoma bombing interview, but all this stuff about Saddam Hussein at war with the U.S. is just...
What it is is it's a complete and total inversion of the truth.
America backstabbed their loyal fascist sock puppet dictator and they've been killing his former people ever since, by the millions now.
Well, you know, you could say that we freed 4.5 million Iraqis and then they fell back...
Freedom from who?
They fell back into their own trap.
Well, they were under a dictator named Hussein, but, you know, they fell back into their old ways, not knowing how to run a country, kind of like the way our country is being run right now.
We kind of raised the whole place to the ground.
It's sort of hard to build up a nation from nothing.
But anyway, all right.
Well, thanks for the coverage and I appreciate it.
Everybody, it's bobmccardy.com.
The Clapper Memo is the book.
Thanks again, Bob.
Thanks, Scott.
Hey, Al.
This is Michael Swanson, The War State.
In The War State, Swanson examines how Presidents Truman, Eisenhower, and Kennedy both expanded and fought to limit the rise of the new national security state after World War II.
If this nation is ever to live up to its creed of liberty and prosperity for everyone, we are going to have to abolish the empire.
Know your enemy.
Get The War State by Michael Swanson.
It's available at your local bookstore or at Amazon.com in Kindle or in paperback.
Just click the book in the right margin at scotthorton.org or thewarstate.com.
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