09/08/14 – Adam Morrow – The Scott Horton Show

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All right, guys.
Welcome back to the show.
Up next is our friend Adam Morrow on the line from Cairo, Egypt.
Welcome back, Adam.
How are you?
Good, Scott.
Thank you.
Glad to be back.
Very happy to have you here.
Adam writes for Interpress Service.
It's IPSnews.net, although honestly, I forgot to even check your archive and see if you have any new ones up there, Adam.
Yeah, that's fair enough.
Do you have any new ones up there?
I haven't.
I haven't been filing anything lately, unfortunately.
But like I promised you last time, I will definitely get on that.
Yeah.
You've got a history to report on going on there.
I know you've got a real life and a real job, too, but it is what it is.
We've got to know.
Anyway, at least I get to have you on the show and you get to tell us about Egypt's march back to democracy since the military, thankfully, overthrew the elected government of that country in order to restore it, according to our Secretary of State.
Going pretty well?
Yeah.
Well, not so.
Not so much, actually.
The last time we spoke, and we haven't spoken in a while, I think it was probably before the whole Gaza stuff.
Yeah, I think so.
I think it may have been before ISIS sacked Mosul.
I think it was probably after that, but not very much long after that.
It was probably the last time we spoke.
Yeah, a couple months.
But if you remember, even then, I was saying that after a very euphoric beginning to the military takeover here that happened, what, about 14, 15 months ago in July of last year, since that time, President Sisi, Abdel Fattah al-Sisi's popularity has waned really, really badly because, I mean, he was expected, like his predecessors, he was sort of expected to immediately solve all these longstanding chronic problems that Egypt has had all of these decades, and he hasn't been able to do that.
So his popularity has waned a lot in the last year alone.
And I think in an effort to do that, they're sort of taking steps now on the domestic front that they're focusing on two things.
And one of them is to sort of distract everybody's attention with talk of terrorism, both domestic and regional.
And the other is to embark on maybe these, you know, these glory projects.
Like they just unveiled, two or three weeks ago, they just unveiled a vast new Suez Canal project that will allow several more ships to dock inside the canal or something like that.
And that's been sort of rolled out amid tremendous fanfare and is being touted as a huge achievement by the leader.
I mean, it hasn't been built yet or anything.
It's going to be built over the course of the next couple of years.
But I mean, a lot of economists and stuff like that have come out and saying that there was actually no real reason to even build this thing and that it was, I mean, it's entirely a vanity project.
And it's being interpreted largely as a, you know, as a sort of a desperate attempt to sort of to bolster his popularity, which, as I said, has been on the wane for the last couple of months.
You still have skyrocketing inflation is out of control.
You just had big subsidy cuts on fuel prices, which sent fuel prices going up by 50 percent, 70 percent in some cases, which just, you know, just affected inflation further.
So you have all of these traditional complaints that still haven't have yet to be solved.
You know, so so we're basically like, as we said last time, we're basically back in terms of the in terms of public, you know, resentment.
We're sort of back to where we were right before the 2011 election.
It's almost as if that that never happened, you know, with a lot of promises from the new government that things will get better.
And, you know, people, you know, the public is being urged to wait and be patient and all of this sort of thing.
But but we're right back where we were on, you know, January 24th, 2011.
At this point.
Yeah.
And of course, the problem is my funny bone is just completely shattered at this point.
And so the sarcasm, I guess, wasn't apparent to you, probably or anybody in the audience either.
Of course, I was just trying to mock the position of the U.S. government that it was the restoration of democracy when the military canceled the results of the presidential election and put its winner in prison.
Not that I was ever pro-Muslim Brotherhood or anything, but it seemed like that was the progress of the Arab Spring in Egypt.
We're going to have elections, real ones now.
But no.
Maybe I've been in Egypt too long, but that's here.
A lot of people wouldn't wouldn't take that sarcastically and would, you know, would just, you know, would would take it seriously.
What you said about the return to democracy.
It sounds like.
Do you mean to say that they're the people who really hated the Muslim Brotherhood that much, even though they had won the elections, are you saying?
I'm saying the media did such a such a job on the public here for months and even years, even since Morsi's time and before Morsi, Morsi being the president who was ousted a year ago, Mohamed Morsi.
The media has been consistently attacking the Brotherhood.
For example, we have these we've been suffering from these intermittent power cuts.
We're getting four or five.
It's better now.
But at the height, maybe two or three weeks ago, four or five power cuts, hour long power cuts a day all across Cairo.
And that went on for a week, two weeks, three weeks.
I mean, it was really, really getting bad.
And then I think three or four days ago, there was a massive, massive power outage.
The grid, the entire grid was somehow affected.
And there was a huge, huge, like, semi country, wasn't countrywide, but it was like a large swath of the country when power went down for several hours.
So that's and that's something that Morsi was consistently being, you know, was consistently being blamed for during his time.
The media was constantly attacking him and in the media for being unable to provide a simple, a simple basic service like electricity.
And now you have, you know, a year after his ouster, you still have the same problem.
And it's even worse.
It's even getting worse.
In fact, CC came on television yesterday and sort of made an appeal to the public to be patient about these power outages.
And and you even have, you know, the hardcore elements of the government and the and, you know, and the and the, you know, the pro army camp were actually were actually saying that it's like Muslim Brotherhood cells that are that are that are sabotaging the power network.
So it's like every single thing, you know, this is a demonization of the Brotherhood has been going on for so long now, for months, years.
But and unfortunately, there are large swaths of the population that really, really buy into this stuff.
Like, I want some of this stuff.
Let me ask an educated Egyptian, an educated Egyptian watches some of this stuff and he'll laugh at how ridiculous this and the anti the anti when propaganda is, you know, but for what you can't forget that at the same time, tens of millions of very simple Egyptians who maybe aren't as educated, actually buy into it.
I learned, I sort of learned that recently, I didn't realize how powerful the draw that the state media has here, but really tens of millions of people rely on the state media here and actually believe it's it's, you know, these ridiculous lies, most of which have been aimed at the Brotherhood for the for the past two years.
All right now, so one of, I guess, what sounds at least to my Western ears, like one of the more powerful pieces of propaganda against them is that they really tried to not just put all their guys in every appointed position they possibly could, you know, change over to their thing.
But they really tried to, you know, talibanize the government and enforce, you know, as much of their Islamist doctrine as they possibly could in terms of clamping down on people's kind of personal and and professional behavior in a way that was considered way out of bounds, where they really should have been just working on solidifying their power, making as many alliances as they could, even with the liberals, as we've talked about before, that they, you know, basically it would be like having Pat Robertson come to power with super majorities in both houses of Congress and just, you know, legislate every right-wing born-again Taliban thing they could come up with against the rest of us in America.
That's at least the way it's portrayed.
But is that not true, that the Muslim Brotherhood?
That's actually a huge misconception.
That's actually a huge misconception.
That's something that that's the sort of thing that I see all the time repeated ad infinitum in the media about Morsi's disastrous year in power, in which he showed himself to be this authoritarian and tried to like foist Islamist rules and make everybody, you know, follow his way of thinking.
You know, that's actually not the case at all.
They actually were bending over backwards.
Morsi in particular and the Brotherhood in general were bending over backwards to ensure everybody or to reassure everybody that they were not going to, that they weren't going to change anything that would affect personal freedoms.
There was no intention to go after alcohol, the sale of alcohol, for example.
There was no intention to touch dress codes in any way.
Now, a valid criticism.
Remember, the Brotherhood have always been gradualists.
All right.
Now, I'm sorry.
Hold it right there.
Hold it right there.
A very important point to pick up on on the other side of this break.
We're on the phone with Adam Morrow from Interpress Service, IPSnews.net reporting live from Cairo.
The restoration of military rule in Egypt.
Hey, all.
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All right, you guys, welcome back to the show here.
I'm Scott Horton.
This is my show, Scott Horton Show.
And I'm talking with Adam Morrow from Interpress Service, living in Cairo, Egypt.
And, you know, in a way, it's my fault.
I'm sure I forget at which point I screwed this up, Adam, but this whole conversation we're having is beside the point.
Nothing would justify the Egyptian military overthrowing the government as they did a year and a couple of months ago there.
So talking about what I'll choose, I'm sorry, I mean, would justify it, Scott, if crimes were being committed against the people and that sort of thing, if there were actual crimes being committed by this elected government, then there would be a there would be a legitimate reason for the military to step in.
But there were there weren't.
Well, even then, even then there ought to be civilian processes for exchanges of power, you know, like impeachment or that, you know, something along those lines without a coup.
But anyway, point being that, you know, they can demonize the Muslim Brotherhood all they want.
And you're saying that, you know, a whole lot of that, the mess of it is not even really true.
You're conceding that.
It was just a massive exaggeration.
It was a massive exaggeration, Scott, that the Western media actually sort of played a big part in.
There was very, very little critical analysis of what there was very little explanation of why Morsi was doing some of the things he was doing.
For example, a decree that he he issued that basically overrode the judiciary and gave him gave him greater powers in November of 2012 was was almost inevitably described as a power grab in the Western media without any real explanation as to why he was he needed he needed to override the judiciary, the Mubarak judiciary in the first place, because the Mubarak era judiciary was stalling all of this legislation that he needed in order to get parliamentary elections going, etc, etc.
So there were valid reasons he had valid reasons for doing some of these things.
And they were just entirely either, you know, they were misinterpreted, or they were willingly misinterpreted, and certainly spun in a very dishonest way, both especially in the domestic media here and in the international media.
Yeah, which is interesting, because, you know, if you read the New York Times closely, you'll see that they would concede that the judiciary is simply a bastion of military power within the government that absolutely was an obstacle in every way.
That's not really in dispute.
It's just not included in the narrative.
Right.
Yet Morsi is Morsi is constantly criticized for his the main criticism was that he tried to get all the all the power in his hands by issuing this decree that overrode the judiciary.
And that's the main point why everybody always says his authoritarian rule, you know, that was his rule that was marked by authoritarianism.
They're constantly harping on the authoritarian thing.
And it's really, yes, he did make an that wasn't a total authoritarian move to make, but there were reasons for it.
There were there were valid reasons for it.
And unfortunately, in this era, you know, in the current era of mass media that we have now, you seldom hear the real reasons why if they don't want you to know them, you won't hear what the real reasons why people are doing things, you know, they'll just be sort of casually written off of the power grab or something, something very simple that doesn't convey the actual, you know, the actual meaning behind them.
All right.
And now, when Field Marshal Sisi did the coup last year, is it your understanding that America was really behind that or with a wink and a nod, or they actually supported it Iran 53 style or what?
Well, we've we've debated this in the past.
And it's not sure it's until now, it's sort of uncertain.
It's sort of an open question, just how much they knew.
I personally think it's impossible that they didn't know.
Um, I mean, all signs would point if they didn't want it to happen.
I mean, I don't think it would have happened.
It was done with the explicit it was it was it was done.
It was quarterbacked by is America's very, very close allies in the region being Saudi and the Emirates in particular.
So I mean, the American connection is the US didn't play much of a role, but I'm sure they I'm sure they knew it.
Well, you know, the reason I asked it that way, there's been a lot of what they said.
Well, it's interesting if you look at what happened in the wake of the coup as well, similar things sort of happened that happened in the wake of the January 25th revolution in 2011.
The US sort of didn't know which way to go.
You know, it was sort of caught between supporting an elected president and supporting what the Egyptians were calling this popular revolution.
You know, so they the US itself sort of went back and forth.
But up until now, it continues to say it continues to describe Sisi as the guy who's going to bring bring democracy to Egypt and the guy who's back on the democratic path.
I wanted to ask you about whether well, the reason I had asked you about America's role in the coup was just because there was, you know, had been some hype about how all America's diminished influence now even Egypt, our former loyal sock puppet, you know, dictatorship under Mubarak is now closer to Saudi and UAE, as you said, and they don't even pay much attention to America anymore.
And, you know, part of that is just, you know, right wing hype about Obama is a feckless president and this kind of, you know, red herring stuff.
But I wonder whether there was some truth to that.
But then again, I would also add that it doesn't seem like there's any daylight whatsoever between Egypt and Israel right now.
So if that's any indication, they're just as much in America's pocket as ever.
But what do you think of that?
Yeah, it's a very weird dynamic.
I mean, there's definitely distance between Israel and, and the US as well.
Because in the wake of Gaza, I mean, during Gaza, you had that you had written you really had the US was getting like really embarrassed by Israel's actions.
You know, it was getting I mean, they were really getting they were I mean, even even the US was getting pissed off, you could tell, you know, with John Kerry getting caught saying that he said something on the sort of got caught on camera, you know, very upset about something that had happened.
And then there was the US was actually using some unprecedented language, I think they described something as something that Israel did as I can't remember the exact word, but it was an unprecedented use of language by the US, you know, in criticism of, you know, critical of Israel.
So there's definitely space, space has definitely opened up over there.
And I definitely think there is some truth to the idea that Egypt is moving away from the US orbit and moving closer to these Gulf states, which are also very closely aligned with Israel.
Now, I think there is there is I mean, I it's incredibly confusing.
So I mean, but there is something to that there is something to the idea that Egypt is moving away from is moving out of the US orbit, though.
And now closer to other other to go other Saudi and the Emirates, and they seem to be sort of more in line with the hardcore, you know, the hard right Israelis than they are with with Obama's Washington, at least.
All right.
So tell me a little bit about the domestic police state in Egypt now.
Sorry, say that again.
Tell me about the domestic police state there, the emergency laws and torture and that kind of thing.
Well, it's really bad.
I mean, reports are constantly emerging of torture.
There have been torture videos are popping up on YouTube all the time.
You've got constant criticisms and condemnations coming out from human rights organizations and things like that.
But I mean, none of that seems to they don't seem to care.
They don't seem to care.
You know, this the way they spin it is like this, you know, this is they're in they're in the middle of like an existential fight with terrorism.
Yeah.
Giuliani said, it all depends who's doing it.
They're trying to draw a parallel between the Brotherhood here and the Islamic State phenomenon in the in the Levant, you know, so they're they're trying to they're trying to turn the whole and the and the Libyan, the Libyan Islamist militias in Libya.
They're trying to draw them all as part of this huge international Islamist onslaught that like only these like, you know, hard ass, you know, hard ass generals can can can stop.
And even CC has just recently come out just within the last day or two talking about like a pan Arab, some kind of pan Arab alliance that, you know, military alliance in order to fight extremism.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's sounding pretty grim.
Yeah.
I mean, they're saying that ISIS is in Sinai now.
So not just terrorists, but the Islamic State is there.
I mean, do you think there's any truth to that?
Doesn't surprise me at all.
Personally, I am extremely suspicious about the whole Islamic State phenomenon.
And and I think it's highly, highly dubious that they would have guys in Sinai.
I mean, basically, you can attribute anything to Sinai, because Sinai is like locked down and we have like a war zone and we have no idea what's going on there.
And because it shares borders with both Israel and the Gaza Strip.
So it's like incredibly sensitive and you've got the smuggling tunnels and you've got all this stuff going on.
Like anything can be attributed to Sinai.
You know, I mean, there was this phase where people were calling it Egypt's Tora Bora.
I mean, just typical sensationalist, you know, nonsense.
So like anything could be doesn't surprise me at all that that ridiculous people would say that the Islamic State is now beheading people in Sinai.
That wouldn't surprise me at all.
But I mean, that's ridiculous.
Well, I don't even I don't think they went that far necessarily.
What I read didn't have beheadings.
But yeah, I mean, all it takes is one goofball raising a black flag and then you can spin it however you want.
You want a whole new war?
Exactly, exactly.
No, a couple of decapitated bodies were found in Sinai about a week ago.
And immediately the first thing everybody did was being like, oh, but there's still no evidence that ISIS is in Sinai, you know, but still managing to raise the specter.
Right.
And, you know, Netanyahu, of course, equates Hamas with ISIS.
And yet when an al Qaeda loyal group poked its head up in Hamas about two or three years ago, I guess now, I mean, in the Gaza Strip, Hamas went and killed them in a day or a couple of dozen of them.
That's right.
Completely.
That's right.
I remember that.
Listen, it's very important for your for your listeners to understand.
Maybe I know a lot of Americans are getting extremely confused right now by the plethora of Islamist groups and all of these crazy different, you know, one is more one is more extremist than the next, you know.
But it's very important that that the listeners understand that the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, which is the which is the group that of which Morsi was a member of, which the ousted president was a member, and Hamas in the Gaza Strip, which is the one which is the group that just fought off the 51 day Israeli onslaught.
Both of those groups are entirely different from these other wacko groups like al Qaeda and ISIS and all these other crazy groups that cut off people's heads and call for, you know, call for, like, you know, international jihad and all of this stuff.
I mean, the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas, Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood.
And these are groups that have like participated in elections, you know, have participated in and won internationally recognized elections.
They have very specific political programs.
You know, they have very specific visions and mission statements.
And for the most part, you know, I mean, it's different with Hamas because because of the because of the occupation thing and the resistance.
But it's certainly in the case of the Muslim Brotherhood.
They do not espouse violence, you know, domestic violence for any reason whatsoever.
And the key is, of course, the key out there is what you said about standing for election that they have made the decision basically permanently at the highest strategic kind of level that they are playing the Western game, just like, you know, Iran with the IAEA and the nuclear program.
Hey, look, we're going along with the deal.
And that's what Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood have tried to do here.
That's why I'm in Al-Zawahiri has always denounced them as a bunch of sellouts and Westerners for playing the game because they keep trying to play the game.
And so just like with the the joint government there between Hamas and the PLA in the West Bank, it was basically before the Israelis started a war over it.
It was basically Hamas signing up for the PLA's approach to dealing with Israel in the United States toward, you know, a Palestinian state.
That was that was Hamas basically seeding their goals in order to join up with the PLA.
And then the punishment for that is war.
You know, it's crazy.
Right, right.
Well, it's almost like the more moderate they become and the more reasonable they show themselves to be, the more the more in danger they put themselves, the more of a danger they become, like Israel will want to hit them immediately before they, you know, before they sort of reinvent themselves in a moderate as a reasonable force or a moderate force, because then they would actually be, you know, then they wouldn't have an argument against them.
They wouldn't be able to use force against them.
They would have to deal with them, you know, as a political force.
So before they even before they even have a chance to do that, they're there.
And now, you know, this is a group that has used suicide attacks against civilians in the past and that kind of thing.
I mean, nobody's saying they're great guys, but the point being that, well, certainly the U.S. and Israel have arranged it to where they're the only political force the people of the Gaza Strip have.
They don't have anybody else to choose from, really, you know.
And let's not forget that they, too, came via elections in January 2006, legislative elections that they swept.
Right.
This is Hamas in Gaza I'm talking about.
Right.
That that America and Israel arranged.
Right, right, right.
All right.
Anyway, so listen, man, I better let you go.
I kept you over time here, but thanks so much for your time, Adam.
It's great to talk to you.
Hey, thanks, Scott.
I hope to talk to you again soon.
All right.
See you.
That's our friend Adam Morrow, everybody, reporting from Cairo there about the situation under the dictatorship of Field Marshall.
Is it Fatah al-Sisi, I think?
Hang on, I got a cough.
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