06/05/14 – Jeffrey Tucker – The Scott Horton Show

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Hey, guys.
Welcome back to The Thing here.
I'm Scott Horton.
It's my show, The Scott Horton Show.
I'm on the Liberty Radio Network at lrn.fm.
Weekdays here, noon to three, Eastern.
Next up is Jeffrey Tucker from liberty.me.
Oops, wrong button.
Welcome back to the show.
Jeff, how are you doing?
Hey.
Great, Scott.
What's going on with you?
I'm doing great.
You've got a good microphone there.
I'm doing a radio show.
We're going to get back to my paranoia about the third or fourth generation of Al-Qaeda crazies now here in a few, but I wanted to talk with you about liberty.me because I like it.
Unfortunately, I have not had the time or quite the inclination lately to write a lot, but it seems like if I was writing things, I'd be publishing them there.
It's a little bit better than a libertarian Facebook.
It's something.
Why don't you tell the people a bit about it?
What we are is a full-blown social platform and publishing platform with a mission.
The mission is to help people get off their duff and start creating freer lives.
That's what it's all about.
It's not just about education.
It's really about action.
We've got a massive archive of books and book discussions coming together as a community to share ideas.
It's quite spectacular.
We've only been open about four weeks, but the amount of contributions that I've seen are just vast and really super high quality.
I spend a good part of my day on it, not just because it's my business, but because it's just a fantastic place to hang out.
I think we really needed something like this, and I think we've done it.
I'm really excited to see it grow and see it expand.
Also, just this morning, Scott, we implemented a 30-day free trial.
You've got to do that in this world, and we're happy to do it.
Anybody can just go in and join for free.
You can see what you think for 30 days and see if you like the community.
We've had zero unsubscribed since we went live, so I think we're doing something right.
Yeah.
Wow.
Really?
Zero unsubscribed so far.
That's great.
Zero.
That's really great for me, because it's not just like, yeah, I want to sell stuff.
I really want people to be given a beautiful service, to be introduced into a new world.
Sometimes a world of liberty can be depressing, and it shouldn't be.
We should be looking for opportunities and ways to build things and creative solutions to the problems in our world today.
I don't know what your view is, Scott, but my own sense is, I was just writing about this this morning, that the way that we're going to find a freer world is not going to be through the conventional channels.
It's not going to be through lobbying, protests, or even demonstrations, much less just electing the right people.
We're going to have to build this world for ourselves.
We're going to have to out-compete the state and be more amazing than all the crap the state's giving us.
That's the way it's going to happen.
I think that's the way it's always happened.
This is kind of a new revelation for me, so I built the site up around this idea.
Right.
Well, and there's a lot of ways to help make them obsolete, starting with just quit calling 911 on each other and this kind of thing.
Oh, that's a good point, yeah.
But then there's a million more.
That's a giant road.
You can go down different places where you can think of ways to withhold your support and find other ways to do things, like Bitcoin, for example, which I know is a big interest of yours.
Yeah, right.
I was writing about that too recently.
It's very funny.
One of the articles I wrote a couple of days ago is about how suddenly everybody gets really interested in Bitcoin when the price goes up, and then they sort of lose interest when it goes down.
I just wish I'd bought them back when they were worth .0002 cents each or whatever it was.
Oh, if only I'd known.
Yeah, and you know, the thing about Bitcoin is the point of Bitcoin is not its exchange rate.
It's its functionality as a technology.
Well, it's both.
Yeah, I kind of get, you know, the thing is that technology has to be introduced into the real world, so it has to kind of go through this sort of messy process of markets and speculation and, you know, plenty of scam artists and all the rest of it.
It was the same way with railroads and the light bulb and everything else.
So Bitcoin's taking that same route.
But if you look at the long term here, you know, we're talking about a technology that just totally crushes national currencies in every way.
So yeah, Bitcoin's a great example of that, but we're surrounded by examples like this.
You know, peer-to-peer technology is taking off all over the world in every way.
I mean, the private sector these days in the market economy is generating solutions, brilliant solutions at the very time that all the state services all over the world, all over the world are becoming ever shabbier and sort of stuck in the past and ever less able to serve the human population with what they really need.
So that to me has very interesting implications for the future of freedom.
You know, what happens if they build a state and no one really uses it?
Do you understand what I mean?
Absolutely.
And, you know, I'm very familiar and I can really sympathize with the Walter Blockian argument that every libertarian ought to get on as much welfare as he can to deny that money to the government.
And if they're a libertarian, then by definition, they're going to be spending it in ways that's superior to the way the government would have spent it anyway.
And they already stole or inflated the money anyway.
But my counterargument to that, I don't live my life that way because I just don't want to be the demand for their supply.
And if they can invoke me, you know, claim, you know, taking their, quote, help, then they've used my hate against them and my speech against them.
So I've decided to just try to go around as much as I can as well, you know.
Yeah.
Everybody has to fight their certain battles, you know, first things first for everybody, you know.
That's true.
There's always a different path for everybody.
We have to be really creative.
But if you just kind of look at the general trends, you know, whether it's whether it's housing or communication or transportation and city security, money and banking, lending, you can just go through the list, you can see that the private alternatives that we've seen just invented in the last, say, five years are spectacular compared to the same services offered by the state.
I mean, so this this is a very significant fact.
I was I mean, the U.S. mails is a good example of that.
You know, people are using it less and less than the post offices is in a panic.
And that's very interesting to me.
And in China, for example, like like there is a government mail system, but like virtually nobody uses it at all, you know.
And so what does the state do?
First, we have to ask the question, why does the state have services anyway?
We want to just steal our money and live off of it.
You know, why do they why do they pretend to give it back to us in the forms of the form of services that supposedly benefit us?
I mean, I think the answer to that question is it's propaganda, right, is to buy our loyalties and to fool us into thinking there are benefactors instead of being our robbers.
You know, right.
Like Sheldon Richman always says, hey, it was Bismarck that invented Social Security.
And it wasn't because he loves your grandma more than you do.
It's because he was trying to separate you from her and make her first loyalty to the Kaiser.
So, yeah, that's a great point, right?
This is what the state does.
So the less we use their services and really the less impressive their retirement systems are, the mail systems or transportation systems, everything less impressive they are, the less they serve human needs.
You know, the the state the state actually does kind of go into a crisis of legitimacy.
You know, I think that's what we're witnessing.
You know, in the U.S. and all over the world today, the state just cannot keep up with what the market is doing.
The markets have become too amazing.
We're in this 21st century digital age now where we're expecting vast improvements and everything.
And the government is not really doing anything except sort of taking stuff away from us, taxing us and making our lives more miserable.
I can't find anything to even play devil's advocate about.
You're just right, Jeff.
You're just right.
Hang on, everybody.
We're going to be right back with Jeff Tucker right after this break.
Phone records, financial and location data, prism, tempora, X-key score, boundless informant.
Hey, I'll Scott Warren here for off now dot org.
Now, here's the deal.
Due to the Snowden revelations, we have a great opportunity for a short period of time to get some real rollback of the national surveillance state.
Now, they're already trying to tire us by introducing fake reforms in the Congress and the courts.
They betrayed their sworn oaths to the Constitution and Bill of Rights again and again and can in no way be trusted to stop the abuses for us.
We've got to do it ourselves.
How?
We nullify it at the state level.
It's still not easy.
The off now project of the 10th Amendment Center has gotten off to a great start.
I mean it.
There's real reason to be optimistic here.
They've gotten their model legislation introduced all over the place in state after state.
I've lost count more than a dozen.
You're always wondering, yeah, but what can we do?
Here's something, something important, something that can work if we do the work.
Get started cutting off the NSA support in your state.
Go to off now dot org.
I wonder when the vert contest is.
I want to go and see that.
The X Games is in Austin this year.
I love me some vert contests, I sure do.
All right, anyway, it's my show, it's the Scott Horton show.
I'm him and I'm talking with Jeffrey Tucker from Liberty dot me, and I think I'm going to have to write up a 30 second script and do a spot for Liberty dot me because is this for a limited time only or this is a real thing where people get a referral fee for getting others to sign up for Liberty dot me.
No, it's not for a limited time.
It's yours.
So you get people, you get your your referral code in there and tell people to put in whatever is going to be Scott Horton, Horton, Scott, whatever it is.
And, you know, you're going to get you're going to get money for signing and signing people up.
Awesome.
It's the way we're going to kind of network this out.
You know, we've been growing dramatically, actually.
Our traffic is just just screamingly high and the memberships are rising.
And we're only four weeks into this.
But we want to put this on fast forward.
You know, I'm going to cut a spot for you tonight.
And maybe we can email back and forth a little bit about what all we wanted to say.
Just go to your profile.
You got I'm down.
Sounds good to me.
I already liked it, but now you're going to pay me to tell people how much I like it.
Well, fine.
Right, right, right.
So we're all capitalists here, man.
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
Well, that's the whole point.
Commerce is about about mutual benefit and innovation and making life better.
So, you know what?
I hate Facebook so much.
And I'm not trying to make the exact parallel, but it's somewhat alike.
And you think I mean, I would like to see a mass migration from Facebook to Liberty dot me.
Why not?
Yeah, or at least or at least, you know, let's let's have a place of peace and sanctuary and quiet, you know, where we have decent place, people without trolls and everybody has a good faith.
That's what I like most about Liberty dot me.
And everybody says that's what I talk to our members.
Like, why do they think it's cool about it?
It's that they feel a sense of like decompression, like, wow, this is cool.
Everybody's everybody's sort of on the same team.
We're sharing ideas.
We're getting along.
I don't have to worry about being flamed and hectored and trolled and ads slapped in my face all the time.
You know, I like to think of it as a kind of a sanctuary, but with a big global mission, you know.
Right.
Yeah, I think I saw Sheldon Richman make a comment just like that.
Hey, it's kind of nice in here.
All right.
You know, sort of looking around, making himself comfortable and things.
I get them every day.
I mean, every day when I fire up my machine, you know, I've got a dozen messages from people going, thank God for this, thank God for the site.
I mean, it's just changed my life.
And and people are just finding stuff every day, you know, on the site because it's so big and so massive.
The other thing is we have nightly classes, which is really fun.
Like last week, I was not just like, well, last week and this week, I went to firearms training class on Liberty Me.
We have a live classroom that we have like nightly classes.
So we had a, you know, a former Marine firearms trainer, you know, actually come in and train everybody in firearms.
And I watched the whole thing.
Yeah, I'm not really like a gun guy or whatever, but I actually loved, you know, my respect for what guns are and what they mean and stuff just just went through the roof.
I was like, I would never do that on my own.
I would never go out and sign up for a firearms training class.
But I can sit at my laptop and watch this stuff and ask questions.
You know, that's just that's really cool.
Yeah, it is.
Well, it's the miracle of the Internet.
There's just no doubt about it.
You know?
Yeah, I wanted to Scott, can you mind?
You said that I could I could take some time and interview you, right?
Yeah, sure.
Actually, I was even thinking if you have the time, I would keep you one more segment if you want to do that.
And I still want to ask about Liberty me some more.
Yeah, we could talk about it.
I mean, also, I have these like crazy questions I've had for you for like two months and I've not been able to kind of get get your attention.
OK, great.
I'd love to talk with you about anything you want.
OK, well, so now this is just a minor stupid thing, but it's the thing I'm looking at right now.
And that is that right under my discount code, there's sort of two overlapping sentences.
This is, again, a minor technical point.
And if I highlight the sentence, I can read one of them.
Your friends save five dollars a month when they use this code to join Liberty.me.
However, I can't see the code because it's written right over that very same sentence in a different frame or some kind of weird.
Yeah, it sounds like maybe it's a browser compatibility issue.
I didn't.
Yeah.
You know what?
That's just Chrome.
I'll try it later in in Mozilla.
I bet it's just Chrome on Mac.
And it was it was great.
So yeah, Chrome on a Windows seven.
But that's a web link, you know, that you can share, but you can actually define the the code that you want.
What this means is like if your code is Horton.
Yeah, well, I made it Scott Horton Show.
Oh, that's a long word.
That's a long word.
But, you know, if that's OK with you.
But also you have to worry about people misspelling it.
Right.
But actually, probably not.
Your name is pretty easy.
Yeah.
So that way, if anybody goes to Liberty.me and put Scott Horton Show, you know, in the the checkout page, then, you know, they're not going to get 30 days free.
They're going to get this discount and then you get a referral fee.
So that's sounds good to me.
Yeah.
So sign up, everybody.
First of all, it's free for the first 30 days.
And second of all, I get money.
Doesn't that sound wonderful?
That's right.
And also, like with this discount, you know, it costs about, you know, four per month, like a bag, like the equivalent of a bag of potato chips or something.
I mean, this is this is crazy stuff.
Yeah.
I got my monthly bill from, you know, the PayPal receipt in the email.
And I thought, oh, yeah, good.
That's fine.
At first, I thought, what's that?
And then I thought, oh, yeah, good.
OK.
Liberty.me thing.
No problem for me.
Skeptical.
And I'm broke.
I'm epically, famously flat broke and I'm happy to pay it.
I don't care.
But we're going to change that.
Right.
So you get people into the site, then you won't be broke anymore.
There you go.
All right.
So now let's talk about how there's this publishing site, which is the most obvious difference immediately.
You know, just structurally with, you know, the combination of Facebook and then sort of with a WordPress blog, basically the same sort of software that one would use to publish blog entries.
And so then it's if I understand it right, it's everybody's publishing site where they go ahead and write up wherever they want, whatever they want.
That's what's open to the public.
And then if people want to participate in the social network kind of back end of it, that's where you sign up to participate.
Is that correct?
Commentary.
That's more or less right.
I mean, there's other public spots, too, like we've got a news feed, Liberty Media slash news that's entirely public.
But if you want to submit links to it, then, you know, you've got to be a member.
But otherwise, anybody can read all that.
And I love it.
The news feed is just great.
Oh, yeah.
No, that's great.
Now, wait a minute.
Where do I find that?
Just just go to.
I think it's a list under Hot Stuff.
Ah, Hot Stuff News.
There we go.
See, man, I haven't done enough clicking around on this.
I mean, it's like it's like a city, you know, I mean, it's like a manual.
Laura, I like that guy.
Yeah, I see him.
These are all news things submitted by other people.
But I could spend all day just reading this new stuff.
And then, you know, obviously the articles which are coming in, I think yesterday we had this is sort of like a Reddit almost.
I don't I'm sorry.
I don't mean to reduce your thing to everybody else's other thing, but it sort of kind of is like that.
And what we try to do is take all the coolest things on the Web and integrate them all under one kind of authentication system that they all belong to you as an individual.
Yeah, so this isn't just a news feed.
This is really a very interactive news feed in the very best way.
Yeah, so it is like Reddit or it's like there's there's other services out there like that.
But but this one's like specifically liberty oriented.
And I have a lot of technology stuff there.
And then another thing is like the events, you know, like if you look under connect, you can go to the events and like every liberty event is listed there, along with maps and and registration links and all kind of stuff.
And you can submit your own events if you want to there.
Another thing that's open to the world is the organization's chart, which is really great.
You can go to all these organizations and and and and under the organizations we have RSS feeds for all their news content.
So you don't have to be browsing all the Web.
We just feed the content to you.
So you can see that there's like a ton of incredibly innovative things in this.
I really tried to make it like like a city, you know, a city for liberty and positively oriented in the sense that we're looking for solutions.
You know, as a way of kind of building out a world of freedom.
And I want it to start with Liberty Me.
You know, this is our the Internet is our frontier.
It's our scalable world where we where we're moving because the state has destroyed some of the aspects of the physical world.
Hey, we got the Internet now, you know, and we can own this place.
Right.
All right.
Now, what's karma?
What are these stinky hippies doing on my Liberty Me thing here?
Yeah, it's really funny because this is a kind of a competitive thing.
Like every time you answer, you know, you start a discussion on the forums or you reply to a discussion or post an article or like a news feed or appreciate somebody's post or any activity you do gain to karma.
And so you just crawl higher and higher and higher to the right.
That has been a lot.
You finally got me clicking through all this stuff.
I'm going to go ahead and take a real good look now.
I dig it.
It's Liberty dot me.
And you can find me on there.
I'm Scott Horton Show.
When we get back, Jeff Tucker is going to interview me about man, technology and state.
It's the Scott Horton Show.
Hey, I'll Scott Horton here for cash into coins dot com.
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It worked, right?
This welcome back.
This is Jeffrey Tucker.
You're on my show, the Jeffrey Tucker Show.
And our special guest today is my esteemed colleague, brilliant antiwar activist, intellectual professor Scott Horton.
Scott, welcome.
Thank you very much, Jeff.
Appreciate it.
I really enjoyed that, actually.
No, here's my I've been wanting to ask you this question for a very long time because, you know, first of all, I'm grateful for the Division of Labor because, you know, I'm very interested in foreign policy.
I'm interested in all this stuff, but I have other things.
I focus on technology, domestic issues and that sort of thing.
So I'm so glad for you because you have massive expertise in areas that I don't.
So I want to ask you something that I've been very curious about.
And I would like you to tell me your realistic, honest, true sense of things, because you watch this stuff so carefully.
What I'd like to know is over the last, say, five years, when we've seen global communication just take off in a peer to peer way where we can all have our own blogs and share information and connect with each other all the way all over the world.
What has this done to the power of the state to trick us into war?
Do you think has made a difference?
I think it's made some, but I wouldn't, you know, I don't know.
It's kind of a difficult thing.
I mean, it depends on the example.
My favorite example, if you want spin, is, yeah, we whooped them last summer on Syria and we made them back down.
But the truth is, Obama really didn't want to do that.
And neither did the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff or the leaders, really, of the military.
They didn't want to get involved in another record in Syria over there.
And so the president had drawn this stupid red line.
And in fact, there was a New York Times report that I thought was credible enough about how they had talked about, OK, whatever you do, Mr. President, don't say anything stupid like red line or anything like that.
And then he went right out there and sort of blurted out the phrase as a George W. Bush ism about, oh, if there's any chemical weapons, then that's the red line.
And he just went, oh, no.
And everybody backstage went, oh, no, he wasn't supposed to say that.
And he just went, oh, no, he wasn't supposed to say that.
Oh, he wasn't supposed to say that.
And so they never really wanted to do it.
It's also true that 99% of the American people were absolutely against it, or 91%.
They found one poll had 9% support for doing anything about it.
And people were angry about it.
And they were active about it.
And they communicated with each other on social media.
And they communicated with the Congress on the telephone and by email and by tweets.
And they said, absolutely not.
We are so against this.
Just forget it.
And they came out to town hall meetings.
I mean, that was where the rubber really met the road, I think, was a congressman.
And this was the first clue that Obama didn't really mean it, was that he said, go ahead and vote your conscience, Congress, which meant go ahead and vote against me if you want.
And then they all went home.
And all their constituents came and said, absolutely not.
And in right-wing districts, people just said, if it's just because they hate Arabs too much to want to help them with bombs or because they hate Obama too much to trust them with a rifle or whatever it is, they just, eh.
So it's kind of all those things sort of came together.
It would be nice if I could be more dishonest and just stick with the, yeah, America, America, face down the government on that one.
It would sound better.
But I think that their heart wasn't really in it.
And I would like to, at the same time, you can see where, look at Egypt, for example, where the military, by way of the media and their sock puppets, were able to convince enough people to show up in the town square to justify a coup d'etat and overthrow the elected government and install themselves back as the military dictatorship and cancel the Arab Spring.
Or look at the way that they seem to have really gotten away with the narrative that everything going on in Ukraine is Russia's fault rather than America for doing the coup d'etat in the first place.
So I mean, it's better.
People have access to information to the contrary point of view, to the truth, if they want it and if they're looking for it.
And that's what I'm doing here is trying to be a place where people can go to find it.
But it's not, you know, our truth is not ubiquitous yet as far as, especially when it comes to government narratives in real time.
And that's all that really counts to them, is that they can fool you today.
And they don't care if you know that they're a liar the day after tomorrow or tomorrow.
But as long as you believe their lie today, then they can get away with the thing they're trying to get away with.
Well, leave aside the propaganda and the Ministry of Information and all this crap and how we can overthrow them with blogs and all this kind of thing.
What about just the peer-to-peer contact between all people in the world?
I mean, almost everybody in the world is doing business with everybody else in the world these days.
Doesn't that, those commercial contacts and the fact that we actually know people in these countries that are variously demonized, doesn't that make a difference, make war less likely at some level?
Yeah, I mean, it has to.
It absolutely must.
And really, you know, I don't know about the hearts and minds of the people at large.
I don't know the answer to that.
But I know that, I was just saying this on the show to the people yesterday, I think, that I saw Bill Gates years and years ago at a thing on MTV where a kid said, what about the rise of China?
And Bill Gates said, it's the most wonderful thing that ever happened, that Maoism is dead and long live the rise of China.
And the better they do, the better we do.
And there's no such thing as China.
It's just a billion human beings.
And let's all get rich and be friends and trade.
And it was the most, you know, wow.
A CEO of a giant welfare corporation, welfare receiving corporation like Microsoft believes like that.
That's cool to me to hear.
And if that's the future of how American business thinks of China, then so much the better.
And also, you know, it's true.
So I don't think you have to be a libertarian really to understand it.
That was why it was so brilliant for Nixon and Kissinger to do what they did and go into China.
It wasn't just splitting them off from the Soviet Union.
It was that, you know, if you want China to be a little bit less of the world's worst nightmare that ever happened, then let's open them up.
Let's start trading with them.
Let's show them the benefits of liberty.
And they'll want it more and more, you know?
Have you ever done a counterfactual in your mind and imagined how the aftermath of 9-11 would have been different if we had had all the technologies that we have today?
You know, I don't know.
You know, we would have had a much better fighting chance.
But then again, you know, people turn fear and, you know, ignorance of what they're afraid of into, you know, rage pretty quickly.
So, you know, really, it took years for that feeling to go away.
It took years.
I mean, the way I remember it, you still couldn't even imply that George Bush was the one who was a jerk until after Katrina and New Orleans drowned.
And that was in the summer of 2005 after he'd been re-elected and re-sworn in, you know, after the entire absolute catastrophe of his first term.
Still, you were the jerk for saying that there was anything, you know, fundamentally wrong with this guy, his regime, and what they were up to until after, you know, until the fall of 05 or something.
So that spirit of fear and hate among the American people, I mean, face it, they love that stuff, Jeff, you know?
Yeah, it's pretty grim.
It's pretty grim.
You've been tracking this for a very long time.
What is your best recommendation for sort of avoiding war hysteria?
Because we know it's going to come around.
It's not been vanquished on the planet forever.
There'll be some new atrocities, some new demon out there that the US has to slay.
What's your best?
It sounds silly, but the best answer is learn geography, man.
There are only so many continents with so many countries in them out there.
So once you figure out that there are no even possible enemies anywhere south of Texas, now move over to Africa.
There are no powers in Africa.
Okay, so forget them.
And then there's Europe.
There are allies and best friends all the way to Russia's frontier.
And Russia is no longer the Soviet Union.
There are frenemies at worst.
And same with China, are frenemies at worst since before I was even born, back, you know, when Richard Nixon was the president, as we talked about.
And Australia, you know, the entire, you know, British Commonwealth is basically the American empire's satellite, first tier satellite states.
And so that's it.
There's Antarctica, but ain't nobody live there but scientists and things.
And so we're out of even possible enemies in the world other than the horrible jihadist suicide bomber killers that the American government creates everywhere they go and slaughter innocent people.
So really, you know, there's just no reason to believe anything that they say about any enemies because it just couldn't really be.
And you look at, for example, it's easy to whip up war hysteria against Vladimir Putin because what a serious looking face, but come on, has he been on the rampage conquering and invading and regime changing countries?
No, he is not.
And this thing in Ukraine that they build up all this propaganda against, again, it was an American coup d'etat that happened in Kiev first before Putin did anything to make sure that Crimea was gonna stay within the Russian's sphere of influence, et cetera, and the rest of what's happened since.
So, you know, people ought to just internalize the lesson that there are no enemies other than the jihadists.
And the best way to solve that problem is to stop killing people right now.
Right.
So what was your sense of this prisoner swap?
Have you given a show on that?
Oh, you know what?
I'm for it, but we're out of time for this segment.
And then you know what?
I'm sorry, cause then I gotta go to Adam Morrow from Cairo.
But he doesn't have anyone on the show.
We could follow up on this.
Shoot me an email or a Skype message or something.
Thank you for your time.
Thank you for doing my show and asking me questions.
I'm sorry I went on so long.
I should've went on shorter.
The great Jeffrey Tucker, everybody.
Liberty.me.
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