05/07/14 – Daniel McAdams – The Scott Horton Show

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Our first guest today is Daniel McAdams.
For years and years, he was foreign policy advisor to Dr. Ron Paul in the House of Representatives, and now he is the head of the Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity at RonPaulInstitute.org.
Welcome back to the show, Dan.
How are you doing?
Thanks, Scott.
It's great to be with you again.
Good.
It's very good to have you back on the show here.
And in the midst of all this Ukraine crisis, I sure do like reading your stuff.
You obviously already knew a lot about Ukraine going back.
I don't know if you knew a lot before the last time America did a coup d'etat in Kiev, but you've certainly learned a lot.
Maybe you can tell us about your background knowledge of this kind of thing, and then maybe steer us toward...
Well, I don't know.
We don't want to do a whole summary here.
I want to skip.
Tell us anything interesting about your background in this subject matter, and then we'll skip ahead to what's going on here with the attack on the building in Odessa the other day.
Sure.
Well, actually, I spent most of the 90s living next door in Hungary, so I did a lot of traveling, a lot of election monitoring.
Didn't actually get into Ukraine, but quite familiar with the very complex historical and ethnic makeup of Ukraine.
As you know, a tiny tip of Ukraine had been in historic Hungary, so you do have a Hungarian minority living there as well.
So it's always been a very touchy situation.
And also, you know, the whole sort of Soviet succession states has never really completely played itself out.
So you did always have a tinderbox there.
But, you know, as you mentioned, I was working for Dr. Paul back in 2003 and 2004 when the Orange Revolution 1.0 took place.
And you remember, we even ran some on the site, some of Dr. Paul's statements at the time, telling the US to butt out, stop sending all these millions of dollars and doing all this training to people over there who are trying to overthrow the government.
So, yeah, we've been watching this for a long time.
And then, so I guess, you know, most listeners to this show, if not, they can go back, catch up.
They can go to ronpaulinstitute.org.
They can go back to scotthorton.org, go through the archives and catch up a little bit.
But we've basically got, I don't think it's really a right-left thing as much as a east-west thing.
And there are clearly, you know, hardcore right-wing nationalists on the western side, which include these groups, Svoboda and Right Sector, who are pretty much outright neo-Nazis.
I don't know what would distinguish them, the different kind of SS logo that they brandish compared to the lightning bolts or something.
I don't know.
So, and then I don't know if it's really kind of a left-wing-led thing on the pro-Russian side at all, or whether they're, you know, pretty much conservatives too, but just with different loyalties or how exactly that works out.
Maybe you can fill us in.
But we certainly had a building that was occupied by pro-Russian protesters in Odessa, which was attacked by, according to The Guardian and other sources, Right Sector.
It was a pretty big crowd of people attacked and set the fire there.
So I guess, tell us everything you know about what actually happened there.
And then how many people were killed and all of that.
And then we can get into the media criticism here, which I think is, you know, really, it's exceptional what the degree of dishonesty and lie by omission here.
It's really notable in its own right.
Not quite as bad as the mass murder itself, but still pretty drastic.
But so anyway, so tell us what you know about this protest and how it turned into this riot.
Yeah, I think Odessa is a really interesting situation.
It's a terrible tragedy.
I don't know that we will know everything that happened.
I probably, probably by mistakenly, I've watched so many minutes and hours of video taken from every angle of everything that happened.
And from what I could see and from what, you know, other people who shot the video could tell, there was, there had long been an encampment in front of the trade union building.
The anti-Kiev people, the people who are opposed to the US-backed coup in Kiev in February, they sent up sort of a mini tent city there, as they had done on the Maidan, the other side, and had been camping there for a while.
And apparently there was a soccer game, a football game that day.
And the groups, from what we could see in the video, came running down the street.
They torched the tent city.
The guys who are occupying it then went into the trade union building.
You know, the video looks, it looks pretty wild, like they were pretty, you know, intent on violence.
I think there had been some violence at some point from the pro-East, you know, the anti-Kiev people.
So it was sort of a give and take for a while.
And then these groups went into the building.
And you can, this is, you know, the media, which we'll talk about in a minute, you can clearly see the people outside, the pro-Kiev people, as you say, the right sector types, the extreme rightists, you can clearly see them throwing Molotov cocktails.
Tragically, you can see some young gals, some young women filling up these Molotov cocktails with gasoline.
So they happen, you know, they have to be considered accessories to murder, really.
But you can see these guys throwing them in.
And then we've seen some videos lately of the guys, the people who are trying to escape from the window as they were being burned.
They stepped in front of the window and they were shot at by some of these right sector people.
So this is clearly an act of mass murder against these anti-Kiev people.
And as you point out, the way it's been covered in the West is very different from anyone.
These videos are available to anyone to see.
You know, it's not like this is not some kind of secret.
So, yeah, I mean, in the footage from, I guess, the roof of a building across the street, something like that, you can see that as soon as they arrive, they just completely ransack all of the tents and all of that.
And then, blam, goes the Molotov cocktail, was ready to go.
It goes soaring through the air, lands right on the front porch of the building there, right at the front door area there.
So, you know, there are many things that I can't figure out.
And a lot of people are speculating.
There are things that, frankly, I just don't know.
I don't understand why it seemed like there were pro-Kiev people in the building.
I don't understand why so many of the victims had been shot in the face.
And I don't understand why so many people were only burned from their neck up.
You'll see pictures of them, and it's quite gruesome, but you'll see pictures of them where the, you know, from the neck down, they look completely normal.
But from the neck up, they're completely burned.
So there are so many strange things I don't understand.
There are rumors that some sort of noxious gases were used to kill these people.
Then they tried to burn them to cover the evidence.
You saw one gruesome image of supposedly a woman who had been raped before she was burned alive.
So it is very difficult to see the full picture, but clearly something very strange happened.
And you have to wonder, who did the planning behind this?
I don't know.
Well, I mean, it may not have been that well planned to be planned, but then again, you never really know.
Well, what's interesting is...
Maybe you will, but not yet.
Yeah.
I mean, it's troubling because you do, and I don't want to get into too much speculation here, but there were, I'm sure you saw the article in the German press over the weekend that the CIA and FBI had sent in dozens of people to advise the government in Kiev on how to put down these insurgencies.
Right.
Or these protests.
You know, there's no evidence that they were directly involved in what happened in Odessa, but you do have to wonder if some of these guys...
I mean, the CIA operative guys are not schoolboys.
You know, they're some pretty tough characters.
So who knows?
Right.
All right.
Well, and so then the big question there is, before we get to the whole media thing, which is just a disaster, but it really, you know, more to the point, the more important question is, you know, what this symbolizes on the road to some kind of Ukrainian civil war.
I mean, it had seemed to me that the new junta doesn't really have enough power to try to really take over the East.
They've made somewhat half-hearted attempts and have been, you know, mostly foiled.
And so it seemed like, you know, maybe there's not enough for those who would reject their rule to push back against.
And maybe the, you know, the bad spirits here can sort of, you know, wind their way down and cooler heads can prevail rather than the thing escalating.
But it seems like, you know, the government in Kiev keeps trying to push it.
And things like this, where it's, you know, dead civilian activists, not battles among even quote unquote militants, but basically dead activists at the hands of brown shirts.
This is the kind of thing that makes it much harder for cooler heads to prevail.
But, you know, I don't know.
I don't want to be too bad of a doomsayer.
You think that maybe it could be negotiated?
What if the Americans and the Russians really tried, you know, really wanted to, and really tried to hammer this thing out and come to a peaceful agreement?
You think they could?
Well, I think one of the big problems is that the U.S. side has been so disingenuous from the beginning.
You know, they've insisted that we know for a fact that the Russians are involved in these protests.
They've been infiltrating them.
They've given them weapons.
And they know it for a fact.
Yet every single time they've come forth with a piece of evidence that's been refuted.
If you remember General Breedlove a while ago came forth and said, oh, we have this satellite image of all these tanks and this buildup.
It turns out it was a couple of years old.
Then they came again and said, oh, we've got these pictures of these guys, you know, the same guys who were in Georgia and Russia and Ukraine.
Well, the guy who took the picture said, that's bogus.
That's not true.
Right.
And on and on, you know, several times.
In fact, the New York Times had a thing where they really investigated and said, no, these are really all Ukrainians.
They may be pro-Russian, but they're two of a man.
I mean, to their credit, they actually sent someone in there.
And the New York Times is definitely not a pro-Russia paper.
Yeah, well, you know, Robert Perry called it a sort of retraction because they didn't really say we were wrong the other day, but they were definitely contradicting themselves.
As you put it, admitting it that like, yeah, we're sort of sure.
And the not quite fast enough.
I'm sorry.
Hold it right there.
We got to take this big break, but then we'll be right back.
With Dan McAdams from the Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity.
Right after this.
Hey, y'all, Scott here.
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All right, you guys, welcome back to the show here.
I'm Scott Horton.
This is my show, The Scott Horton Show.
I'm talking with Dan McAdams.
He's the director of the Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity at ronpaulinstitute.org.
This piece is called The U.S. Media Covers Up Mass Murder in Odessa, Ukraine.
And again, it's a murder at the hands of the right sector, brown shirt, Banderas types.
Well, it seems like, you know, the Americans, well, or the Western side, if they've thrown in their lot with the West, I mean, they've got to know how unreliable we are or our governments are, of course.
But it seems like if they can make matters worse, so much the better for them to a point.
I mean, if the assumption is that the worst that they could do would be to lose the East to Russia, at least, you know, they would hope that that would solidify their support from the Western side, something.
I mean, I don't know when that leak of the gas princess, Yulia Tymoshenko was released and she was saying, yeah, you know, nuke East Ukraine and all of those pro-Russian bastards, whatever, she didn't really mean kill them all, but what she meant was she hated them all and she was basically, I don't know if it probably wasn't, I don't know if it was a provocation by her, but it was, you know, basically an escalation.
It was a renunciation of any pretended legitimacy that she might have or her party might have to rule them by declaring them basically all outlaws and enemies of the state who, you know, might as well be Russians or whatever.
And so she repeated that yesterday, where she said that, you know, we need to get a militia together.
We need to get volunteers together to come out and go out to the East, you know, and basically take care of these people, you know.
So the government, yeah, they're not trying to work this out.
They're trying to, you know, prove that they're the state, that they have a monopoly here and they're gonna go and do an anti-terrorist operation.
I guess the Americans could make them cool their jets, but the Americans are encouraging them to go ahead and follow through like this.
But yet at the same time, they claim that the Russians need to deescalate.
Well, as you know, as a New York Times story, the lack of evidence, everything else demonstrates there's really nothing to deescalate because believe it or not, the Russians aren't in there, you know?
I mean, I can imagine Putin pulling his hair out, saying, how many times do we have to tell you?
You know, and it comes to the point where the U.S. is irritated with Russia for having troops on its own soil.
This, from a country with troops, in what, how many, 120 countries across the world?
But what I think is interesting- Well, in fact, the AP is reporting right now that Putin is claiming, at least, which this is pretty verifiable, that his troops, he has called his troops to back off from the Ukraine border.
He's trying to deescalate for his part, at least that much.
Exactly.
Well, there was a meeting between Putin and the current head of the OSCE, who happens to be the president of Switzerland.
And basically, three huge steps back on the part of Putin, which I think are going to irritate people who, on both sides, because some people think that Putin is going to rush in and save the day, and anyone who studies his behavior in the past knows that that is not how he operates.
You know, they're the Putinistas or whatever you want to call them, who think he's going to do the smackdown.
That's not going to happen.
But anyway, what happened today is Putin said the referendum in Donetsk should be postponed and to allow negotiations to take place.
The presidential election scheduled for later this month might be a good step in the right direction in Ukraine.
And as you pointed out, he said, we'll pull back our troops even further.
These are three pretty significant climb downs on his part.
And what does the State Department spokesman, Jen Psaki, say?
Oh, he's not doing enough to deescalate.
Is this clearly not satisfactory enough?
They're not pulling the troops back enough.
He hasn't gone far enough.
So it's just, you know, they're not allowing diplomacy to take place whatsoever.
They're too busy doing selfies and putting up hashtags on Twitter to actually sit down like adults and try to talk this out.
Right.
Well, and you know, of course, the other headline is that how many, 30, more than 30 terrorists killed in fighting yesterday and four Ukrainian soldiers.
And so, I mean, they really keep escalating this from the American side before, you know, just the other day, it was five killed at a checkpoint somewhere by some right sector guys.
But in most of the places where the military had attempted to intervene, they'd been turned back and even disarmed by the civilian protesters who just said, absolutely not.
You're, you will not pass kind of thing.
And they kind of said, all right.
Yeah.
That happened a few times, but it looks like Kiev ain't backing down here at all.
Even as Putin is, as you're saying.
Yeah, well, a lot of these poor guys said, all right, by the way, do you have any bread?
Because we haven't been fed in a while, you know?
So I think when, where you did have regular military go in, that's when you did see a lot of them turn, a lot of them back down.
But what I think the danger, and I think you alluded to it, they're not able to count on their military.
So they're having to recruit some of these right sector types.
They have been training from what I understand in military and paramilitary techniques for quite some time.
So these guys are quite dangerous.
They're quite violent.
And these are the kinds of people that they're able to recruit, to send to the East.
And it's just a recipe for disaster because the people in the East feel like they're fighting for their homeland and their way of life.
You know, they feel that the government that went into power in Kiev is not legitimate.
It was put together by a coup supported by the West.
So therefore, if that's accepted, then they have the same right to dissent as the original guys did in Kiev.
And the US who supported the guys in Kiev, all of a sudden, they're talking about how you have to crack down and let them know the law.
I mean, this is a government that is using its own military against its own people.
They're using helicopter gunships to shoot at some of these checkpoints.
They're killing people with helicopter ships, with RPGs.
This is the kind of thing that the US, when it's a government it doesn't like, uses as a pretext for an invasion.
You know, you remember Gaddafi is killing his own people.
But somehow it's okay when the people that the US wants killed are getting killed.
That sounds a bit extreme, but- Hey, we saw it in Egypt last summer, where, you know, Morsi, nobody better get hurt under Morsi, but Al-Sisi, Field Marshal Sisi can kill whoever he wants.
Yeah, well, there was well over a thousand, wasn't it?
Now there's another thousand sentenced to death.
Yeah, I mean, that's not controversial, honestly.
As horrible as it sounds, the facts of the matter are pretty clear there, you know, as far as, you know, what human rights means doing what you're told by the USA.
But now, so two things in very, very short order to discuss left here, which is, Ken, do you think that the Americans and their buddies in Kiev can make this bad enough that they really do provoke a Russian invasion?
Or how likely do you think that is, that Putin ever would actually go ahead and invade Eastern Ukraine?
You got to admit, it'd be nice to control Odessa, whatever empire you're the head of, right?
And so there's that.
And then the other thing is about just the larger context of creating a new Cold War at all costs, almost it seems like is the real agenda.
And you have virtually no time to answer both of those.
Go ahead.
Okay, well, I saw an article the other day that Lockheed Martin is thrilled by what's happening in the region.
And they're rolling out a bunch of new products to sell to these countries.
So that tells you a lot.
Ken, can they provoke a Russian reaction?
I think it's possible, but I don't think Russia wants East Ukraine.
They want them as a trading partner, but they don't want to own it.
The place is a mess.
Who would want it?
It's broken.
And I think Putin understands that.
The third thing, Odessa, if you know, is the home to one of the largest, if not the largest Jewish community in Russia.
And I think they've got to be scared crapless over what's happening with these right sector thugs coming in.
So I think if you see these guys doing something in that respect, I think you might see Russia getting a little bit more upset.
Yeah, well, I don't know.
I don't know who's supposed to come down and make the most powerful people in the world cool it.
They're the highest ranking leaders Earth has, the American and the Russian presidents.
So let's hope they can figure this out.
Thank you so much for your time and your information, Dan.
I appreciate it.
Thank you, Scott.
That's Dan McAdams, everybody.
RonPaulInstitute.org.
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