James Bovard, author of Public Policy Hooligan, discusses the legislative “cluster-bombs” exploding under unsuspecting Americans; the IRS’s seizure of tax refunds from individuals who allegedly were overpaid by Social Security decades ago; how government theft is legalized through civil asset forfeiture laws; evidence that the war on drugs is finally winding down; and Americans’ increasing awareness of police brutality.
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Hey y'all, Scott here.
You like coffee?
Me too.
Hey, if you're a true connoisseur, you need to try an amazing new roaster out of LA, Tonks Coffee.
These guys are fanatical about delivering the best coffee beans in the world.
They get the beans directly from the growers, roast them, then ship them to you within 24 hours so they're as fresh as can be.
Tonks is a subscription only service and they're offering a free sample to listeners of this show.
Give it a try.
If you like it, you can sign up.
Then every two weeks, you get a new batch of incredible coffee beans roasted to perfection.
If you're hitting the cafe or drive-thru most mornings, this is a better and more economical way to get great coffee.
Go to tonks.org slash liberty.
So me and Jim are sitting here talking off the air and he's dropping these horrible curse words.
No, just one, but it was the big one.
And then that reminded me, I actually dreamed about Jim being on my show and cursing.
And me going, oh no, he keeps saying bad words and I can't make him stop.
I'm kind of a kook, I guess.
I think I already guessed that and now it's certain.
I'm a kook.
All right.
Well, anyway, Jim still likes me.
Welcome to the show.
How are you doing, Jim?
Hey, doing good, Scott.
I'm sorry that your memories of our past shows are giving you nightmares.
All right.
Well, you just behave yourself, all right?
Well, yeah.
No, I'll try to be a boy scout.
Yeah, well, sure.
Hey, you guys ought to read all of Jim's books.
They're really good.
You got The Fair Trade Fraud and you got The Farm Fiasco and you've got Lost Rights and Freedom in Chains and Terrorism and Tyranny, The Bush Betrayal and Attention Deficit Democracy, which is so freaking good, man.
You got to read that book.
It's so good.
And then also his great memoir as well.
And then it's right on the tip of my brain, the memoir is Public Policy Hooligan.
And he's called that because and seriously, go check out Jim Bovard's Wikipedia page.
You can see the collected denunciations of the heads of virtually every bureaucracy, every federal bureaucracy in Washington, D.C.
They absolutely hate this guy's guts.
And for good reason.
Just because they suck.
And he's always writing about it in places where important eyeballs can read, like in The Wall Street Journal or here.
This one is in The Washington Times.
Our cluster bomb Congress plants legislative IEDs under unsuspecting American citizens.
What are we talking about here?
You gave the horrible example here, which I had only seen headlines of and didn't really read up on.
But I was glad to see that you covered it here, Jim.
What is this?
Well, the cluster bomb, our cluster bomb Congress, refers to how Congress passes these very thick laws and they're full of hundreds or thousands of different provisions.
People don't really pay attention to them.
And then years later, it's like they've scattered bombs across the landscape.
And like with a cluster bomb, it can be dropped and six months or a year later, you can have children outside playing.
The children get too close, the bomb explodes, the kids are maimed or killed.
In the same way, you've got these provisions and laws that scatter across the landscape and wreck people's lives.
For instance, there was a one-line provision in the 2008 Farm Bill, which basically waived the statute of limitations for the government going after people that supposedly overpaid in the past.
And because of that, you've had federal agencies going after people for debts that were more than 10 years old, often what the government didn't have any evidence that people actually had been overpaid.
And in many cases, they were going after children for money that their parents had received, even though their parents had died long ago and there was no evidence, there was no way to find it.
And what the government would come in here and do is just seize people's tax returns.
Their state returns, their state income, state income refunds, their federal income tax refunds.
And so people would simply get a notice that the government had taken their tax return and put it in its pocket, and it would be almost impossible to fight this.
Yeah.
Well, first of all, we've actually covered the cluster bombs laying all over the ground in Laos that spot hundreds of people a year on this show.
That's a real thing, man.
Afghanistan too, cluster bombs laying around.
Afghanistan, Iraq.
The first time I focused on that was in Kosovo, because I was absolutely mortified that the U.S. planes were dropping these cluster bombs on marketplaces in Serbia.
It was barbaric.
It was serving no military purpose, it was simply to terrorize the Serbians into surrendering Kosovo to the U.N. and whatever.
And I was amazed that there was not a far greater backlash by the American media and the American public against the U.S. government, you know, dropping cluster bombs on marketplaces.
Yeah.
I mean, the fact that it's 45 years after the bombings over Laos, and that they're still killing hundreds of people every year.
You know, farmers, and of course, it's little kids that pick them up, even though they've been told 10 times, don't ever touch that.
What's a little kid do?
Pick it up.
Torn apart.
That's what little kids do.
True.
Huge.
And it's a great analogy, because, you know, I think for whatever reason, people are just, you know, it's kind of out of sight, out of mind for some reason.
Maybe it's not the neighbors that you knew that these terrible things happened to, but there's a way, like, you mentioned somebody owns some wetlands property or something, and the government just comes and pulls out some arcane rule and completely ruins them.
There's a certain part of the population, at least, that just assumes some kind of guilt or greed or sin or something on the part of the persecuted here, because, you know, sort of like Iraq through a 9-11.
Or else, why would we be invading them?
Why would the government be clamping down on this rancher or on that, you know, fish farmer or whoever if they weren't really threatening this animal or doing some terrible thing?
And people really don't, they just don't recognize the actual suffering, you know, I mean a cluster bomb is only a little bit dramatic compared to people going to prison, being fined for their entire life savings and more than they'll ever be able to pay in their whole life, their business destroyed, their family maybe split up over it, and this kind of thing.
We're talking about the government ruining people's lives.
The one shot they got out of life, and a bunch of thug feds coming and having their way with them over nothing.
People who aren't criminals, people who are just regular people.
And so I think it's important to call it like a cluster bomb like that.
Like, hey, this matters, man, even if it's not you or your cousin, it's still somebody and it ain't fair.
And a part of what's really nasty about this is that it's done through administrative procedures and the government simply seizes the money, puts it in government accounts, and then the person's later sent a notice, and it's very difficult to fight this court.
There was a front page Washington Post piece on this last Friday, and also on Monday afternoon the Social Security Administration said it was going to temporarily desist from seizing the debts of people that were more than ten years old.
In many cases these were alleged debts of parents that the government has passed on to the kids.
I'm blindsiding the kids on that.
But the law is still there, and the Social Security could resume this at any time once the media spotlight shifts to someplace else.
And now, by the way on this, when you say overpaid, it sure doesn't sound like there's even an implication of fault here.
And then of course, like you said, no proof required, but it's not true.
It's just a claim that they make.
Absolutely.
And in many cases you have overpayments that were not due to the...
First of all, there's a lot of overpayments that probably never happened.
And second, a lot of the ones that did happen were probably the fault of the government, not of the person that got the money.
But it doesn't matter because the government has this notion that it can go in and just seize people's money on any reason, and that there's nothing more important than maximizing government revenue.
Yeah.
Well, and you know, you can see how they would have a case, if we were talking about a one in a million shot, where the computer spit out the wrong decimal point, you know, bottle turned to toddle, and somebody accidentally got $10 million dropped into their account for no reason or something.
You don't have a right to that.
Yeah.
I mean, something like that.
Yeah, that's happened to me a couple of times with money from Nigeria.
Yeah, I know.
The government is always giving me $10 million accidentally too, you know.
But yeah, I mean, if it was something like that, but that's not what we're talking about.
We're talking about...
I mean, what you're talking about literally sounds like a nightmare, sounds like something out of East Germany or something, where they're coming to people and saying, listen, we paid your mom too much in the 1970s.
She's long dead, we can't prove it, we don't have to prove it, and all your money belongs to us now.
And that's it.
Simple as that.
Yeah, I mean, it's the way the government conceives an unlimited amount of a person's tax return this year, and maybe the next year, and the following year.
It's a good reason to make sure that you don't have a tax refund coming.
But there's such a brazen contempt for due process here, that a lot of folks don't realize this is how the government plays the game.
The same thing happens in asset forfeiture proceedings, where the government comes in and seizes property, and then the innocent owner has got a huge legal and financial burden in order to recapture the property.
Right, yeah, all this civil forfeiture.
It's funny, I mean, you can certainly see the bureaucratic interest in it from all agencies at all levels of government, that if there's a way that, you know, I'm sure once somebody got the idea that they could take criminal forfeiture and make it civil and still get away with just basically robbing people all day, that, you know, you can see why they would all want to do nothing but that all day long.
But jeez, is it the attention deficit democracy?
What is it where that's just the way it is then?
If that's the institutional interest, then that's the end of the argument.
It seems like there would be some kind of pushback.
I mean, I know from personal experience and like anecdote-based stuff that there are people who, you know, like the Waco fire or something, civil forfeiture is what really woke them up to the fact that you're not living in the Bill of Rights country you thought you were living in here, man.
Things are corrupt and out of control, and how could it be that some poor Honduran lady gets her $50,000 that she worked so hard for and saved up for years to bring home, gets it all nabbed at the airport and can't ever see it again?
And when even all sides admit that she probably wasn't really doing anything, but they can do it if they want and just shrug.
I mean, where in the hell is the outrage over civil forfeiture after all this time, after a thousand examples, 10,000 of innocent people being victimized like this?
Yeah, I mean, this is something which I was embarking on in the early 1990s and sporadically since then, but the horrendous outrages are still occurring, and every now and then there's some media coverage, some very good coverage by some journalists, by some TV stations, and some of the think tanks and legal groups have done great work on this, but this BS keeps going, and it's partly because government profits, and as soon as the government starts profiting, congressmen say, well wait a minute, here's some money for us to buy a re-election.
It's hard to overestimate how complacent congressmen are about government crimes that profit the government.
Stay tuned, and I'm going to come up with some actual good questions for him, and then it's going to be rad.
Jimbovard.com.
Hang tight.
Hey y'all, Scott Horton here for CashIntoCoins.com.
So you want to buy some bitcoins, CashIntoCoins.com makes it fast, easy, and safe to get bitcoins.
Just deposit the money into their account at any of the major banks they support, and then just email them a picture of the receipt and your bitcoin address, and you get your bitcoins almost always the same day it clears.
In a tough competitive new market, CashIntoCoins.com has the advantage, a great system, and great customer service to keep you coming back.
That's CashIntoCoins.com.
Just click the link in the right margin at ScottHorton.org.
All right, you guys, welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton.
This is my show, The Scott Horton Show.
I'm talking with Jim Bovard, Jimbovard.com and Amazon.com.
He's got a whole bunch of badass books for you there, really good ones, man, I'm telling you.
The most successful libertarian journalist in world history, I'm pretty sure.
How do you like that, Jim?
Well, Jim, I hope that's not true.
I hope someone else has done better.
No way, man.
Well, thanks.
That's very kind.
No, seriously, Attention Deficit Democracy, that thing is a masterpiece.
You guys ought to get that.
You ought to go to audibletrial.com slash scotthortonshow and get Attention Deficit Democracy by James Bovard.
It's killer.
You'll love it.
And it's years out of date now, but that doesn't matter.
It's still so good.
You'll want to hear it.
And then, of course, his great new memoir.
It's really a riot.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
