04/14/14 – Eric Margolis – The Scott Horton Show

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All right, you guys, welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton.
This is my show, The Scott Horton Show, streaming at APS News Radio, Daily Paul Radio, my own site, scotthorton.org, Anomaly Radio.
I love this goddang place.
This is my show, The Scott Horton Show.
Keep all the interview archives there at scotthorton.org, more than 3,000 of them now, going back to 2003, including a whole bunch with Eric Margulies, because he knows a lot of things.
He's the author of War at the Top of the World, as well as American Raj.
He writes for himself at ericmargulies.com, for lourockwell.com, and also for unz.com.
Welcome back to the show, Eric.
How are you doing?
Happy to be back with you.
The news just keeps pouring out.
Yeah, I don't know what to make of it all.
I guess, first of all, let's start with Ukraine.
How about this?
I'm scared to death, you tell me to chill out.
Seems like my government's going to get us into a war with the Russians.
Well, it is very possible.
It's frightening.
People who are thinking and looking at this situation are worried as hell.
You're right.
This just reeks of World War I, the days before World War I, which I've studied in great depth.
In fact, I have a Swiss degree in the subject.
It just gives me the willies, because there's so many possible sparks that could ignite a shooting war over this ridiculous confrontation in Ukraine, where we, the United States, really have no business and no interest whatsoever.
All right, so we've got these protesters.
I don't know who all.
Some say there's Russian troops involved.
Maybe they are Russian intelligence or Russian-sponsored locals or, I don't know, maybe local locals, seizing buildings and saying they want to vote on a referendum to secede from the Union over there in eastern Ukraine.
Some of them even calling for Russian peacekeepers to come in and protect them from the Ukrainian government.
At the same time, the Ukrainian government, the junta that America installed there, anyway, if you call them the Ukrainian government or not, they say that, you know, your time is up.
I think they keep changing their deadlines, but they're saying or they've threatened war, right, that they are going to rule eastern Ukraine, whether the eastern Ukrainians like it or not.
And then it seems like pretty easy to see that at that point Putin would go ahead and intervene in the name of protecting pro-Russians and ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine from the West, at least.
No?
Well, fortunately, President Putin is very cautious, and I'm hoping that he has the good sense not to get involved in a military clash there.
If he does, I think he'll use Russian special forces and these kind of guys in unmarked uniforms and things.
Don't you just hate it when the commies do exactly what we Americans have been doing for so long, that is subverting governments, overthrowing them, sending special forces into Libya to pretend there's a revolution going on there when in fact it's us overthrowing the government, like we did in Iran, like we're trying to do in Syria.
It's the pot calling the kettle black, and it really annoys us when the Russians take a page from our book.
Right, well, and especially when they're doing the exact same thing, seizing the buildings and holding these mass protests and whatever, and to see John Kerry say, oh, well, you know, these aren't protesters, they're backed by a foreign power and whatever.
Come on, give us a few weeks before you're that hypocritical, you know what I mean?
They haven't caught anybody from Moscow talking on the telephone with the Kremlin about who they're going to appoint as the new leader in eastern Ukraine.
They've got better operational security than the Americans.
You know, that's actually, for me, that little part of the story is a big part of the story.
In fact, maybe we talked about this before, just the hubris of Victoria Nuland and Jeffrey Pyatt to go on the way they did about orchestrating that regime change on what was apparently an unsecure line.
Like, these people really think that they're, you know, 12 feet tall and live on Mount Olympus and all this, and how could mere mortals tap their phone, even if they're on an open line, you know?
One of my favorite books was written by the late Polish author Ryszard Kapuscinski, and he wrote this wonderful book called King of Kings about the court of Haile Selassie, and he perfectly describes this phenomena of these people, once they get into power, suddenly their voices go down and their bodies become more square, and they don't look you in the eye, they're looking at the horizon, and it's just pulsating self-importance.
And that's what these two-by-nothing neocons are doing in Washington.
But I don't know how Kerry or any of these other people can accuse Russia with a straight face.
After all, you know, we're not talking about Kansas or Texas.
This is an area that used to be part of Russia.
And every invader that's tried to undermine and weaken Russia, the first thing they've done is tried to detach Ukraine.
Well, the hard part, too, is, and you know me, I'm an American, and so my biggest problem is with the American government.
That's always getting my country into trouble and that kind of thing.
But, well, in this case, they're getting the Ukrainian people into trouble.
You know, as we talk great power politics, there are a lot of people in Ukraine who, you know, the reason that so many people in Ukraine speak Russian instead of Ukrainian is because the communists made it that way.
The Russians, under the communist government, made it that way, and they rained holy terror on the people of Ukraine for, what, 75 years or something like that?
And so there are a lot of people in Ukraine who are scared to death about the Russians coming back in there and ruling them like the battle does.
And in the Baltics and in Poland as well.
Well, we harken back, as we've discussed, to the frightful mass genocide of the 1930s when Stalin murdered between 6 and 7 million Ukrainian peasants in this folk memory state.
But there also, look, eastern Ukraine was part of Russia, very much was part of, was hardwired into the Russian economy.
And I've long said that partition Ukraine, that western Ukraine, which looks and thinks to Europe, go and let eastern Ukraine go back and rejoin Russia, where it really belongs.
Well, and you talked before, too, about the immediate interests of the eastern Ukrainians to keep out of economic union with Europe, because they're protecting their inefficient old industries, but it's still the basis of their local economy, and they like it the way it is, and they certainly can't compete with a bunch of mass-produced crap coming in from the west.
That's right.
All the local factories and mines in eastern Ukraine would close if they joined Europe.
You know, there's another function, too.
This isn't addressed as much.
And that is that the per capita income of Russians in today's Russia is much higher than in Ukraine.
Ukraine is a failed state.
It's been a failed state ever since it's proclaimed independence in 1991.
It's been ruled by or misruled by a bunch of totally inept people, infighting, corruption.
Behind the scenes are 13 or 14 immensely powerful oligarchs who have brought all the politicians and are looting the wealth out of the country.
Ukraine is a mess, and when pro-western leaders have been running it, it's just been just as bad a mess as when the pro-Russian ones like that big thug Yanukovych.
Yeah, I saw where, at least in Crimea, they were saying, wow, all the old people's pension just doubled, and military pay just doubled, and a lot of Ukrainian Crimeans are thinking, maybe I will join the Russian Navy if only for a little while, make a little bit of money before I go home.
That's right.
That's one of the other problems.
This is not just a political question.
It's an economic question.
And now the western powers are frantically trying to figure out where to come up with $35 billion to pay off Ukraine's debts.
It's bankrupt.
It can't pay its gas bills.
It owes the Russkies millions for unpaid gas.
Don't worry, the American people are good for it.
We'll bail out the Russians and everybody.
Every banker Ukraine owns.
Well, that's what we're doing, and we're just loading more debt onto our already bankrupt debt structure.
It's incredible, really.
It was funny, right, the way they talked about, it reminded me of Bush going into Iraq, and everybody was shocked when he announced it was going to cost $87 billion, you know, for the first couple of months of operation over there.
And everybody was like, $87 billion?
In this case, they were like, oh yeah, we're going to give them $1 billion.
$37 billion.
And it was there, right, in Bloomberg and whatever financial news.
If you look two or three times at Google News, you could find one with the real cost of what the IMF was giving them.
And in loan guarantees, it's over $30 billion, I think they said.
That's right, and a lot of this is to protect Western financial institutions.
Right, yeah, that's what John Paul said.
All this money is just going back to New York and London.
It does, so that they don't default.
Otherwise, we'd have to admit that the emperor has no clothes in the Ukraine, and then it's a basket case.
The Russians had offered them $15 billion.
I wonder if Vlad Putin isn't happy that, he said, let the Americans take care of Ukraine.
Well, do you think that we can count on Barack Obama being a coward?
I mean, sometimes he lives up to being a coward at just the right moment, like Syria last summer, that kind of thing.
So maybe even if Putin does push it, which I agree would be stupid, and he's not stupid, but maybe it'd be all right anyway?
It could be all right.
You know, Russia has a very capable foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, whom I have great respect.
Putin is a very clever, wise politician.
As I wrote a column once saying, you know, Putin is playing chess while Obama's playing checkers over Syria.
But the problem is that the plot is thickening now, because the American Republicans are involved.
They're screaming for war.
The Israelis have gotten involved, because they have suddenly found a very large interest in Ukraine.
You know what, I think that's where we're going to have to start this conversation, on the other side of this break.
It's Eric Margulies, everybody.
Ericmargulies.com, lourockwell.com, unz.com.
Back after this.
Phone records, financial and location data, PRISM, Tempora, X-Keys, Score, Boundless, Informant.
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All right, y'all.
Welcome back to the show.
It's my show, the Scott Horton Show.
We're talking with Eric Margulies, and we're talking about Ukraine.
We're fixing to head over to Afghanistan, which is all part of the same big story here.
But first of all, Eric, right before we had to go out to that heartbreak there, you brought up Israel's role in America's Ukraine policy.
Is that right?
Or at least Israel's role in Ukraine.
Tell us about that.
Ukraine has, I believe, the third largest Jewish population in Europe and a sizable number of people.
It's traditionally sort of the cradle of the European Jews is in Ukraine.
And Israel has been expressing great concern, first, over the threats of anti-Semitism coming back.
Secondly, a lot of Israelis are outraged over the rise of the extreme right wing in Kiev.
But the Israelis are making clear that they don't want to see the Russians come back into Ukraine.
When Israel speaks, Congress jumps to attention.
So the U.S. Congress is hearing what the Israelis are saying and pro-Israeli influence makers in the states.
And it's hardening Congress's position on the Ukraine, certainly bolstering the party that wants to confront Russia over this really formerly totally obscure subject.
So I guess they may not like Svoboda and the right sector over there, but they don't fear them enough to want the Russians to come save them yet anyway, huh?
Not yet.
And I did read in Haaretz that hundreds of Jews, what, 300 or 400 a week, I think they said, are moving back to Israel right now.
Well, a lot of the Ukrainian oligarchs, most of whom are Jewish, have, like the Russian oligarchs used to be, have joint Ukrainian-Israeli citizenship.
So they fly back and forth.
We saw the same phenomenon in Georgia, by the way.
When Georgia was confronting Russia, the Israelis came in, provided them with intelligence and training, and most important, provided them with arms.
All right.
So, well, other than the fate of Jewish Ukrainians, do they have any other major interests there?
I mean, America's big deal is the pipeline routes, right?
Overriding concern and NATO expansion.
But what about the Israelis?
Well, Ukraine plays an important role in producing weapons.
It could produce nuclear weapons again, possibly.
But the Israelis are just nervous about it.
They regarded Ukraine as an important beachhead for them in Europe, and now they're wondering.
All right.
Well, so now here's the thing that nobody ever talks about when it comes to discussions about Russia, and that is that Vladimir Putin was the very first foreign leader to call George Bush after September 11th and say, hey, I'm with you, anything you need, let me know.
And then, well, I hope you can report this to me, Eric, or if you know about this, I believe I've read before about how Putin had a real fight inside Russia with politicians and their supporters on his right for supporting the United States and telling George Bush, yes, you can use our former bases in the stands and you can use our invasion routes and supply routes and everything else to invade Afghanistan.
And he said, yeah, I mean, it is a real problem opening up the soft underbelly of Russia to the Americans.
But on the other hand, I think it's worth it to make friends with them and use this opportunity to really help America out in a way that can, you know, help our relationship move forward.
And America's done nothing but accept their gift this whole time, but still since, you know, at least, what, 2004 or 2005, maybe before that, done nothing but spit in their face.
Well, I keep saying that.
I've written column after column.
Why are we kicking sand into Russia's face?
This is very true.
There was a strong opposition in Russia to Putin's opening of supply routes into Afghanistan, which brings me to the next point.
You know, if we keep confronting the Russians and slapping them in the face, sanctions and things like that, Russia is holding 30,000 American troops hostage in Afghanistan.
It wasn't completely selfless of Putin to make that allowance, was it?
He's sort of got a trump card over us now, too.
Well, he does because the southern routes to supply and for exiting U.S. troops from Afghanistan are very, very shaky because of fighting along the Khyber Pass and Molokan Pass in the south.
So the main supply and withdrawal route now is the north route, as it's called, which goes all the way to the Caspian and Black Seas and all the way to the Baltic in some cases, uses Russian rail network and Russian airspace.
So if Putin puts the screws on there, the Americans are going to be caught in a very frightening situation in Afghanistan.
Well, we can always make peace with Iran and use their routes into Afghanistan, right?
No, that's not going to happen.
I really don't think it should happen, but it doesn't look like it's going to.
Some forces within the U.S. government are going to sabotage that if there's any chance of really a major opening.
Fitz in the chat room says, take my Afghanistan, please.
Yes.
Go ahead.
I like the old vaudeville, only funny.
Hey, so, well, we already talked about the Afghan election results there.
We can talk about it again.
Yeah, the last I saw, Abdullah Abdullah is in the lead, but maybe they'll have to have a runoff.
What do you think?
Well, it's me.
It's totally meaningless.
We've we've already approved the winner.
I suspect it's going to be Abdullah Abdullah, who is half Pashtun, but half Tajik, the two major ethnic groups in Afghanistan.
He he is long been a front man for the Northern Alliance, which was a communist organization, largest drug dealer in Afghanistan.
Very tied in with the Soviet and Russian intelligence services.
But it looks like the Americans have decided on him or his rival Ashraf Ghani.
These guys, you know, I was just thinking, watching TV today.
Anytime you see an Afghan in a very well tailored suit with his shirt cuffs just peeking out from the sleeves and perfectly tied, not speaking blow dried hair, speaking perfect English, you know, that says CIA Academy all over it.
Yeah.
Well, and I'm sure the locals are really impressed.
Right.
Wow.
What does he lead us someday?
They say they know this whole thing is a fake, this election.
And the Americans really can't decide who they want.
It's what would really disgust me watching this fake rigged Afghan election.
You know, the Russians, the Soviets, when they were there, used to run much more honest elections with real opposition parties.
No longer.
But it's the American media and the British, the BBC has gotten no better.
They're lauding the election and pretending like they're reporting on a real election.
When anybody who does anything about Afghanistan knows that it's not a real election.
Yeah, you know, Anand Gopal and Matthew Aikens had a piece in Harper's about how, yeah, they have elections in the cities, but not out in the countryside.
The whole thing is completely rotten.
That's right.
And in many places it's not even being held at all.
It's about Temkin Village being staged for outsiders.
So.
All right.
Now they're drawn down the surge.
They're down from 100 and something thousand back down to 50,000 or so American troops there, right?
It's either 30 or 50.
I can't remember offhand.
There are a lot of civilian government personnel there, CIA people, AID, the usual, you know, not armed, but influential bureaucrats.
I wonder if you think that they're in danger at all of some kind of, you know, fall of Saigon type moment here where the Taliban just says, you know, you guys have been deliberately undercounting us all this time, but now here we are at the gates of Kabul and you better run like hell because it's your last day occupying this place.
It seems to me like I mean, what's stopping them at this point?
The U.S. Air Force.
Oh, yeah.
America's control of Afghanistan is exercised by air through the air by the U.S. Air Force Naval Air Arm that we've we run seven days a week, 24 hours a day combat air patrols.
That means that the bombers and fighters are circling overhead all the time at Titanic expense for fuel.
The fuel has to be flown in to air bases into Central Asia, probably Manas is the main one.
And the minute there's any contact with the with the Taliban or other resistance groups, the U.S. Air Force is vectored and attacks and bombs them.
Too hard for them to just infiltrate into Kabul.
I mean, they set off bombs all the time.
They just can't do a real kind of front.
Infiltrating large numbers yet is difficult.
The more effective strategy.
Not that I'm cheering for them or anything.
I'm just, you know, I'm interested in it.
It seems like the Americans are being very kind of deliberately ignorant about the position that they're in over there.
No, well, they don't.
We don't want to admit that the Taliban is as strong as it is.
The Taliban is being cautious because didn't want to irritate the Americans even more.
Now that they said they're leaving, they made to change their mind and stay.
So if the Taliban are wise, they'll just let the Americans go and then take over.
Right.
Well, let them call it victory.
It's fine with me as long as they end the damn thing.
Thanks so much for your time again on the show.
You're welcome.
Appreciate it.
That's the great Eric Margulies.
We'll be right back.
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