04/10/14 – Jason Leopold – The Scott Horton Show

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All right, everybody, let's talk about the CIA torturing people to death.
Next up on the show is Jason Leopold from America.
Aljazeera.com.
Revealed!
Senate report contains new details on CIA black sites.
Welcome back to the show, Jason.
How are you doing?
Doing well, Scott.
Thanks for having me back on.
Well, good.
I'm very happy to have you here.
And tell us more about the black sites.
I see that the former Nazi, then Soviet, then CIA, then revealed by my wife Larissa Alexandrovna, torture prison in Poland is part of your story here.
What can you tell us about that?
Sure.
What more can you tell us?
Yeah, well, you know, first of all, I just want to make it clear that a number of these assertions, claims that have been leveled about what is going to wind up in that Senate report, that five-year study that they did on the CIA's rendition detention and interrogation program, that for people who have been following this, who have been watching it closely, this is not any new news, but it does mean it's the first official sort of confirmation that, for example, the CIA had a black site at Guantanamo, that there has been a black site at Poland, that there has been one apparently in Diego Garcia, which the British government has vehemently denied that existed.
And over the past 10 years, maybe a little longer, you know, a number of journalists, as you mentioned, your wife, Larissa, and human rights organizations, I mean, the Associated Press, the Washington Post, they all have reported these stories.
They've noted this in published reports, attributing the information to anonymous sources, government officials, you know, intelligence officials.
But now the Senate has gone through 6 million pages of records from the CIA, documents from other government agencies, a small set of documents from other government agencies, and even documents that other groups turned over to, you know, to the Senate committee.
And this is what they found.
So it's finally, you know, this confirmation that, you know, the CIA has been operating this network of prisons, secret prisons across Europe, that dozens of high-value prisoners, those deemed to be low-value prisoners, were held in these prisons, where some of the more, you know, brutal torture techniques were used, ones that never really even had any Justice Department authorization.
And that, you know, the CIA then would dump some of them at Guantanamo, or hand them off to foreign intelligence services.
And this is a pretty shocking claim that, you know, the Senate apparently just, you know, tried to, using the CIA's records, tried to find what happened to them.
And they're unaccounted for, or at least some of them, and presumed dead.
Yeah, well, but you know, I think I read in the Washington Post, at least before, that only two CIA captives were ever tortured to death, and that that was it.
And then we learned that Eric Holder, actually, that was the one case where Eric Holder had appointed a special prosecutor to investigate whether he ought to investigate the CIA agents what did those murders.
And then he decided that, no, he would, his preliminary investigation found that, no, he should not have an investigation into those murders.
So what about that?
That's not correct?
Well, that's what, you know, that's clearly what we were told.
And that is how Eric Holder sort of set it up, where, you know, review these cases to see if there's any evidence to bring, you know, criminal charges.
And those deaths were in Afghanistan and Iraq, if I'm not mistaken.
And one of them was a, you know, an Iraqi police officer, I believe.
So that seems to be debunked by the Senate report.
Now, you know, the Senate report, by the way, it only looked at, or I shouldn't say it only looked at, but it looked at about 119 prisoners that were in CIA custody.
As far as I could tell, these are not ghost prisoners.
That's a different designation.
Those are prisoners who actually were kept off the books in Iraq.
So, for example, in Iraq, the CIA was, you know, sort of going back and forth, and they'd have some prisoners actually at Abu Ghraib that they never, you know, were completely off the books.
I don't believe, don't have that information, but I don't believe that this pertains to that, this Senate report.
It pertains to about 119 prisoners that were more or less kept at, you know, the various black sites, Poland, Romania, Lithuania, Thailand, Morocco, and Guantanamo, again, apparently Diego Garcia, and Afghanistan was the, where the majority of these prisoners were held.
And then it goes through the, you know, there's some real shocking details, if you can believe it, we haven't been shocked enough as it is, about the first high-value captive, and that's Abu Dhabi.
You know, it seems to, the Senate report seems to confirm that really what was being done to him was more or less like, you know, kind of an experiment, research to help sort of set the stage for the interrogations and torture of prisoners down the road that, you know, that really would be kind of part of this legal guidance that John Yoo put together.
And what I mean by that is that the Senate, again, this is coming from, you know, people who have been, who have read portions of the report, and I should also note that there's a lot of leaking going on in Washington right now, and Diane Feinstein, who hates leaks, seems to be sort of like, you know, just remaining silent because the CIA is leaking their side of the story to certain reporters, and of course, you know, we're getting another look at it.
But, you know, the Senate report, from what I'm told, it seems to show that Abu Dhabi was being tortured way before that memo was written.
And in fact, the techniques and certain methods that were used on him, notably sleep deprivation, took on a sort of, a form of research, and it was that research, that guidance, that was later given to John Yoo to write the memo, which he used in there, for example, saying, oh, you can keep Abu Dhabi up for 11 days, and that's based on research that you've done, you know, keeping Abu Dhabi up for 11 days.
So, uh...
Listen, Jason, you're not going to make me lose face on this Zubeda thing, are you?
Come on.
Yeah, in terms of what?
That he was tortured in August?
Well, no, I mean, that was the, that was the quote from Ron Susskind about George Bush complaining to George Tenet, when George Tenet...
Oh, yes, yes, yes, I'm sorry.
...was telling Bush that this guy who you keep invoking, it turns out that he's a nobody, and he's half crazy, and he never was Osama bin Laden's number three guy.
Yeah.
So you should be careful about saying that.
And Bush got mad, because he'd already been saying that.
And so he said, you're not going to make me lose face on this.
That's right.
Yeah, I took you a little too literally there.
Let me say this.
Yeah, sorry, I'm really not that funny most of the time, so...
Abu Dhabi, though, he was not crazy.
He was not, you know, Susskind got that...
What he wasn't also was Osama's number three guy.
And that's what's more important, because even if he was crazy, it's more likely that they made him crazy by torturing him at Hitler's former torture base in Poland.
Right.
Yes, there's an important point.
And he was not, you know, bin Laden's number three.
In fact, you know, again, some of the material that the Senate looked at, and, you know, try to imagine, I mean, it's been difficult for me to imagine what six million records looked like.
I mean, that is just unbelievably...
You know, you could imagine what's probably in those records.
But, you know, they found evidence of, you know, the CIA officials lying to Congress about promising members of Congress that they were not violating the ban on cruel and unusual punishment with regard to these prisoners that, you know, when questions came up about certain interrogation techniques, they were told one story, and now the lawmakers found out another story.
So, and again, you know, just getting back to Zubeda, they found out that, you know, the CIA was doing things to him that they were never told about, and they claimed that they asked about it.
So perhaps, you know, most troubling at this point, though, is that, you know, the report is going through a declassification review, and there have been promises made to, you know, to these countries like Poland and the UK, I believe, and some others that they basically won't be identified in the report.
So while the report sort of, you know, is broken up into three volumes and takes a look at, you know, the genesis of this program, you know, how they were captured and detained and the value of the intelligence, it still remains unclear if we're actually going to see, you know, first of all, any of the names of the prisoners themselves in there.
You know, whether those, when that executive summary is declassified and released, whether that will actually be revealed or whether it'll just be sort of a compilation of what was done.
Right.
Well, you know, even then, good journalists like yourself will be able to read through the lines and say, oh, yeah, we already know whose genitals you cut with razor blades in Morocco to get him to make up a dirty bomb plot with Jose Padilla.
We talked with his lawyer on the show yesterday, so you can blank out his name all you want.
It's Binyam Mohamed and you guys are guilty.
And I mean, what kind of crime is that?
If you were a federal prosecutor and a civilian did that kind of thing to anyone under any circumstances, what kind of prosecution would happen?
It'd be over in a day and it would be decades in prison.
Anyway, so I wanted to get back real quick, Jason, before the break here and whatever.
And I'll give you I'll turn the whole mic over to you at the end.
But I wonder about what you're hearing from your sources here about the dead.
At least 10 of these guys turned over to the CIA.
Did they say to Egypt?
I was thinking about, you know, what Robert Baer said about the rendition program, even going all the way back to the Clinton years, that, well, if you want them tortured, you send them to Bashar al-Assad in Syria.
If you want them to disappear forever, you send them to Mubarak in Egypt.
Yes.
You know, I didn't put in my story because, but I feel comfortable talking about it.
You know, I did hear Syria, Egypt and Libya, obviously, and those are countries that, you know, we we have stood up and said, you know, we're involved in torture.
And here we are, you know, turning some prisoners over to them as well.
Yeah.
Thanks for suiciding out Libby for us.
We didn't want him interviewed by Jason Leopold.
No.
All right.
Well, we'll be right back after this with more from Jason Leopold on the CIA kidnapping and torturing people to death.
And the new Senate report that we may get to see some of its summary.
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All right, you guys, welcome back to the show.
I'm Scott Horton.
This is my show.
Scott Horton Show.
I'm talking with Jason Leopold.
Writing for America dot Al Jazeera dot com and he's talking to people who have seen this summary of the Senate torture investigation.
The one that is now being turned over to the CIA to be scribbled on with black magic markers before they release it.
So as he said, you know, we don't really know what we're going to get here.
But it sounds like the State Department is also, by the way, weighing in on this.
And that's they're having they're getting they're getting an opportunity to make recommendations and that you can imagine that obviously will have to do with identifying, you know, certain countries.
Now, same thing I've been saying all along is that somebody's just got to leak the whole report and then that'll just be it.
Go ahead and put it on WikiLeaks and let the world see it.
And if a lot of Republicans and Democrats have to go to prison, including people currently in the U.S. Congress, fine with me, fine with the law, if there's such a thing as the law after all.
Well, you know, it's it's kind of interesting, Scotty, at the same time, while I'm reporting on this, I also have an active Freedom of Information Act lawsuit for this for this report.
And, you know, I've been battling the government for almost a year for this report, where they contended it's a congressional record and not an executive branch record, which would make it subject to FOIA.
So now that the report has been that there's been a vote to declassify and that it's been given up or it's being handed off to the White House, CIA and others for a declassification, the judge in my case is actually saying, well, you know, well, let's talk about this.
So, you know, my point in saying this is that, you know, I feel like I can possibly sort of wage a little bit of a battle if they say that, in fact, yes, this should be released under FOIA to try to have, you know, further unredactions made.
But, you know, in terms on the transparency front, I also want to make a note that when you release a document like this, and if it does contain the revelations that we've been promised, that we've been told by Dianne Feinstein and Mark Udall and Ron Wyden, one can then make a case to try and have other material that has been kept under wraps, that has been classified for the past 10 years, to try to pry that loose.
So this could sort of open up the door to, you know, trying to gain access to other records.
And I certainly would hope that other journalists sort of, you know, take advantage of that opportunity.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, you're really a pioneer in that.
And I'd like to mention that Kelly Vlahos at Antiwar.com has a great write up about Jason that you guys might want to take a look at.
And this is sort of part of the chilling of sources since Obama's war beyond Nixon against sources and journalists in Washington, D.C., that you've just decided, you know what, I'm just going to sue your ass for the hard proof all day.
And then I don't need two sources and confirmation.
I got your document where you admit it yourselves, you bastards.
So that's it.
You're setting a great example for journalists about, you know, mileage that can be gotten there.
You know, a lot of it.
Yeah.
I mean, that's funny.
That's sort of what I say, what I say to my wife when she's asking me, like, why are you doing this?
You know, yes, that's exactly it.
I mean, look, you know, when I put this report out yesterday, it's, you know, she let the listeners know.
I mean, these are these are unnamed officials.
You know, I spoke to on Monday, spoke to a CIA officer and he was providing me with some information as to, you know, what his what his feelings were about this, why he said, you know, why he felt that, you know, that that torture did not work and that, you know, people like Mike Hayden and John Rizzo and Jose Rodriguez, you know, these top CIA officials, you know, they're going out there and making all these claims, but they're they're just false.
And I said, well, why don't you go on the record?
Can you go on the record?
Can you talk about this?
And he said, are you nuts?
You know, he said, once you go on the record, once you talk about this, you're you're completely marginalized.
The CIA marginalizes you and you're in what he said was you're unemployable.
Your life is turned upside down.
And so, you know, you sort of get stuck in this position where, you know, you rely on anonymous sources.
I obviously don't have this document.
I have no idea what it says.
I trust what they say.
But, you know, getting back to that, what you were talking about with regard to FOIA, you know, it's and getting the government documents.
Yeah, that's that's the battle.
That's the fight that that as a journalist, you know, I'd like to wage because, you know, it's in the public interest.
The public has a right to see it.
And, you know, at that point, it's it's like, you know, you can't dispute a document.
So, you know, I I still have a role directly related to this issue, to the CIA's program, black sites, et cetera, you know, other law suits.
And I do hope that, you know, the material will come out and I'll be able to share it with everyone.
Yeah, well, I sure would like to see it.
Do you have your own kind of encrypted secure drop thing where people can send documents straight to you?
Oh, yeah.
Yes.
I have that all set up.
You can see that on my, you know, Twitter profile.
I mean, it's very easy to set that up.
Or rather to to get in touch with me that way.
Let the word go forth.
Yeah.
Leopold writes about documents.
Yeah.
Give him documents to write about.
And just a, you know, on the same note, if I may, you know, on Monday, I put this report out on again on Al Jazeera, you know, since the Snowden leak, since the the the the leaks by Edward Snowden last June, you know, the NSA has been inundated with Freedom of Information Act requests, 600 percent increase.
They have seen since the first Snowden leak, five thousand two hundred FOIA requests compared with about eight hundred or so, you know, I believe the the previous year.
And it was great to see.
I got these FOIA logs.
We're able to see what the post Snowden FOIA requests are.
And it's incredible.
People are you know, they saw these stories, they're they're they're journalists, the public, you know, research groups, they're they're contacting, you know, the NSA filing these FOIA requests saying, hey, you know, I want this.
Unfortunately, the the NSA is virtually exempt from FOIA and, you know, they they mostly issue GLOMARS.
But, you know, the point being that documents we're at a time right now where documents primary source material is so valuable and the public really, really crave that information as as you know.
So it's a worthwhile effort.
Right.
And you know what?
It's worthwhile for the reaction to as Julian Assange wrote in his manifesto that, you know, the more stuff is leaked, the more they clamp down.
That also means that the government can't share information with each other about how to get away with all the horrible things that they get away with all the time.
And so, right.
Their power becomes that much less effective.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
That's exactly right.
That's true.
And they don't have the right, you know, anytime they declassify anything, you can tell that all they're trying to do is protect themselves from any accountability.
I mean, you know, I don't know what would be considered a legitimate secret, but there are not many.
Most of them are just about the American empire and other people's countries, none of which is legitimate at all.
Each and every aspect of which is a scandal that, you know, deserves to be revealed to the people.
Yeah.
Yes.
And look, you know, it's not as if we're at a point where all the secrets have been revealed or, you know, all the information is out there.
I mean, if anything- No, it's more secrecy than ever before.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And, you know, so it continues to, you know, demand, you know, aggressive reporting.
And so, you know, just again with this Senate report, you know, they have a 6,600 page report and they're releasing 480 pages in an executive summary.
And while that is a nice chunk of material, I mean, you know, Scott, 6,600 pages, you know, that's not that much out of, you know, what they put together.
And so that really should be out there as well, even if it is declassified, but it should be out there.
And it doesn't seem like, you know, there's going to be any effort to release that.
So here they have, you know, this voluminous report, 6,600 pages, and to just sort of satisfy the public or to, you know, keep people quiet or to say, hey, now it's over, you know, they're going to give up 480 pages.
You know, at the same time, it should note that there's no, it doesn't come with any sort of recommendation for accountability, for investigation.
You know, back in 2009, and you and I have spoken about this before, the Senate Armed Services Committee released a parallel report.
And that parallel report pertained to the treatment of detainees in custody of the U.S. military.
And there was a lot of info in there about the, you know, the overlap with the CIA.
And Carl Levin, who was the chairman of that committee, he recommended in that report, he said, I am making a recommendation to Eric Holder to investigate and hold people accountable.
Now, of course, that never happened, as we both know.
But the point being that the Senate Intelligence Committee report contains no such recommendation.
Right.
Yeah.
And then the Judiciary Committee, which you almost said there, they never looked at it at all.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So there's no recommendation from them either.
So this report comes out, and it's like, well, you know, what next?
And basically there, you know, there isn't a next.
Well, and that's the most important point here is that, listen, if these guys have the authority to torture people to death, or at least the president has the authority to turn that on or off like a switch or a tap there, then there's nothing that they can't do.
And if there's no accountability for this and there's no accountability for anything in what's supposedly a democratic society here, I mean, this is torturing people to death.
Right.
That's the end of it.
And now we're out of time.
I keep doing that to everybody's interview, talk until the end of it and not having time for any more questions.
Sorry.
Thanks very much for your time on the show, Jason.
It's always great.
Hey, always appreciate it, Scott.
Thank you.
That's Jason Leopold.
Everybody.
He's great.
He's at America.
Al Jazeera dot com.
Senate report contains new details on black sites.
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