02/11/14 – Mike Maharrey – The Scott Horton Show

Hey y'all, Scott here.
Anti-imperialism is at the center of libertarianism, as long as we keep it that way.
So if you're part of a libertarian group, how about having me out to give a talk on the wars?
I work cheap and I'm good on everything.
I've even been known to change a mind or two with some of these things.
Check out some examples at scotthorton.org slash speeches and email scott at scotthorton.org for more information.
By the way, this February 15th, the Future Freedom Foundation is having John Glaser and I give a talk at the International Students for Liberty Conference in Washington.
Come on out and say hi.
I'll tell you what, man, it's times like this when people really show their true political colors, you know?
I just went and googled off now and up came all these warnings from liberals talking about how if a coalition of leftists, rightists, and libertarians can succeed in rolling back the beyond Orwellian, illegal, unconstitutional surveillance state, well, the next thing you know, those terrible right-wingers are going to take away all our welfare.
So therefore, do not work with them in trying to roll back the NSA and their illegal spying.
Hilarious.
And of course, there are a lot of right-wingers who feel the same way.
A lot of right-wingers like to pretend they believe in liberty when democrats are in power, but then up comes an issue like this and they have to choose who do you love more, the military or yourself?
And it's hard.
It's a hard choice for conservatives a lot of times.
But anyway, yeah, the NSA, that's the military.
But anyway, so it's good that the totalitarians on the right and the left are showing their true colors, what they're really about and where their priorities are, because libertarians, we get to form our new coalition for peace and for liberty with all of the good liberals and good conservatives, leftists and rightists, who get sick and tired of the power mongers and the compromisers and who would like some peace in their Bill of Rights back.
And so congratulations to us.
Welcome to the show.
It's Michael Meharry from the Tenth Amendment Center off now.org.
How are you doing?
Scott, good to see you.
Or not see you, but hear you.
Yeah, well, it's good to hear you, too.
I appreciate you joining us on the show today.
And I don't mean to be too mean to rank and files of the left and the right, really, because it's those who actually seek power among the left and the right who I really have such a problem with and who have such a problem with the liberties that I hold so dear.
But I think the average kind of rank and file Democrat or Republican would tend to agree that they would prefer peace in the Bill of Rights, too, if they had a chance at it.
What do you think?
Yeah, absolutely.
I think you're right.
I think that your average man and woman hanging out on the street and doodling around on Google on their computers don't want the federal government spying on them, and that doesn't matter whether they lean toward the political left or the political right.
It sounds like you got into the ThinkProgress article that came out a couple of weeks ago about the off-out campaign.
Well, this one is crooks and liars saying, hey, go and look at this.
Crooks and liars, of course, just mean the Republicans, I guess, not the people who are currently keeping a database of everywhere your cell phone has been for the last five years.
Exactly.
You know, it's interesting.
There was a really good rebuttal to that ThinkProgress piece published in another progressive blog, and I can't remember which one it was.
But they made the point that state action can and has been used by folks on the left to advance their agenda, and it has resulted in the collapse of all that progressives hold dear.
And they pointed out the trust act out in California, where basically the state authorities are saying, you know what, we're not going to hold these minor criminals so that ICE can come deport them.
So, you know, this state-based kind of action works both ways.
Sanctuary cities is what you're talking about there, right?
Yeah, exactly.
And they have the trust act that they passed out in California, basically.
The state authorities – you know, it was set up so that if somebody came in and they were deemed to be illegal, they would hold them regardless of what crime they had committed until the immigration people showed up.
And Governor Brown signed the trust act into law, and basically if it's a minor crime, they're going to let them go.
They're not waiting for any federal immigration officials to show up.
Yeah, good deal.
Yeah, that's an important example, and I'm not sure if this is the same one that you're talking about because there's been a few good refutations of that ThinkProgress piece from the left and the right, but there's a good one in Counterpunch where they talk about, hey, look, we're talking about the NSA completely not just violating the Bill of Rights, but they're violating the Patriot Act that they're invoking.
You know how I know?
The author of it said so.
They never intended for a minute to legalize bulk collection of everyone's metadata like this.
And Sensenbrenner, the quote unquote author of it anyway, was really the Department of Justice that authored the damn thing.
He's on board for and has his own, I think, legislation in the U.S. Congress to repeal that part of the Patriot Act that they're pretending to invoke the color of law here.
So we're not talking this is like we're talking about nullifying completely illegal unconstitutional behavior here, not a public education for minorities or something like in the bad old days of the 1950s.
That's a good point.
Anybody who can't see that is either neurotic or else they're lying because they want the power, because anybody that can't see this NSA data collection and the extent that it's extending into everybody's life is not a violation of not just the Constitution, but just basic civil liberties and human dignity.
If you can't see that, then I'm really going to worry about you.
And I think also part of it too is – and I'm guilty of this as well, although I try to – I try.
I should put that in italics.
I try to only shoot up and give regular people the benefit of the doubt.
But it's hard to not assume bad motives among people who you don't know, whose politics you think are just horrible and would lead to whatever horrible consequences.
They just must be horrible too.
And so when a progressive hears a libertarian being really good on a lot of things that leftists and progressives are supposed to be really good on, like say the Fourth and the Fifth Amendment, for example, the Eighth, things like that, they can't help but suspect that what are you really up to?
Like you're a part of a secret communist cell back in the McCarthy era, right?
You're only pretending to be a liberal Democrat.
You're really trying to create a Bolshevik tyranny here.
So the suspicion falls on you.
That's true.
You do get a lot of that.
And this has really been a neat thing for me to be able to actually be involved in a trans-partisan coalition and actually work shoulder-to-shoulder with folks that I may not agree with politically on a whole host of issues.
But to be able to come together and focus on this issue and to work together, and to work together in a friendly way, it's really neat.
And you find out that some of these people are actually pretty cool.
You might not agree with all of their politics, but you start to realize that there's a lot of people that just want peace.
They just want freedom.
They just want prosperity for themselves and for their families.
And sometimes there's some misguided ways to go about it, but it's neat being able to connect with people on that level and kind of get away from that.
Well, you believe this, so you must be this kind of attitude.
Right.
Yeah, you know, I remember this poll years ago now, but I bet it's the same result.
It was 91% say the Constitution is important to them.
And what they really meant by that, and when you're talking about 91%, you're talking about people who are not very political, but what they really meant by that was they're under the impression that that's the last thing holding their government back from wholesale violations of their rights.
But at least in America, we have the Bill of Rights.
We have something like a Matlockian fair trial where we have a chance to have our say and they can't just kick in our door because they feel like it or drone us because they feel like it, that kind of thing.
And so, you know, I mean, and really look at it.
The only person that I even know of who, you know, public so-called intellectual or bureaucrat or anything, who is outright proposed revamping the Bill of Rights is Cass Sunstein, Samantha Power's husband and cognitive infiltrator or whatever the hell he calls it.
He's the only one who says, hey, we need to rewrite the First Amendment because we need to ban your speech.
Nobody is for that.
Everyone would at least pretend to agree that the Bill of Rights is sacred.
It's the last thing to get rid of when we finally get rid of the national government, right?
Exactly.
I mean, it's designed to put restraints around the federal government.
And, of course, you know, there's people in the federal government that don't like that very much.
And maybe that's the Sunstein case.
But, yeah, for those of us, the only one who will admit it publicly, right?
No one else admitted publicly that they don't like the Bill of Rights because it's in their way.
Exactly.
But, yeah, you know, I don't know.
In other words, we should win because we're right.
And every but we have the consensus on our side.
First Amendment.
Yeah, we like that.
And the second and, for that matter, the third and the rest.
Exactly.
And it's true.
And that's the thing that we really need to tap into.
And I think that's been the failure of a lot of political movements is that it becomes a movement of political movers and shakers as opposed to a movement of people.
And that's one of the things we really want to do with the Off Now campaign is get your average person involved, get your average person cognizant, get your average person aware of what's going on.
So that we can tap into that sentiment and use that power that comes from people banding together across the political spectrum to fight something.
You know, that's an extremely powerful thing.
And we really need to tap into that.
Right.
All right.
Well, when we get back from this break, we'll be talking more with Michael Meharry from the Tenth Amendment Center and the Off Now campaign about this day, February the 11th, the day we fight back.
What people are doing.
It's a very broad coalition.
Speaking of the realignment, supporting this thing and how you can get involved and really help take this short window of opportunity that we have to roll back the National Security Agency and the surveillance state.
Offnow.org.
We'll be right back after this.
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All right, y'all.
Welcome back to the show.
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All right.
Hey, you know what?
We're at Daily Paul Radio too.
Okay, we're talking with Michael Meharry from the Tenth Amendment Center.
And today is the so-called Day We Fight Back.
There's this huge coalition, left, right and libertarian, at thedaywefightback.org pushing for what exactly?
And are you guys a member of this thing or just in spirit or what?
I guess we're a member of it in spirit.
It's really, I think, a focus to try to get people to call Congress and get those critters up there to do something about the NSA spying.
And I'm all for anything that, number one, raises awareness.
And I think this has been really effective in that area.
I can't go anywhere on Facebook or any place without seeing something about the day we fight and dealing with the NSA.
So I think that's a positive thing.
I'm rather skeptical of any type of activity that tries to get Congress to do something because they're apt to not do something.
So we would really want to focus our attention on working at the state and local level.
But we're definitely partners in spirit with what's going on, and we stand by the sentiment.
We want the NSA spying ended, and whatever can be done to get that done, we're all for it.
Well, yes, certainly having this going on in the background sets a nice stage for you when you go and meet with the state officials and you, meaning the people involved in your movement.
So tell me how this works.
And I don't know, don't be dishonest or anything, but tell me how well this is working, how possible, how surprised you are to find out just how possible it is to get a state legislator, maybe not all of them or a majority of them, but some of them, to do what you want and to introduce this kind of legislation that could help to interpose and nullify the federal surveillance state.
Well, I'll tell you what.
I mean I'm extremely pleased with the progress of the OffNow campaign to this point.
When we got together in November and really started putting together the Fourth Amendment Protection Act, which essentially denies any material support from the state to the NSA… …and can include things like any state entity supplying water or electricity turning it off, and also prohibiting data sharing or the use of shared data in state courts, two very important provisions.
When we first started talking about this, we were kind of thinking if we could get ten states on board with this movement, that would be pretty positive.
That would be pretty good for something that basically we're putting together here within a six-month period.
At this date, we're at, I believe, 13 states that have introduced some type of Fourth Amendment Protection legislation.
Are you kidding me?
Yeah, and the real biggie was yesterday a delegate in Maryland, right there on the NSA doorstep, introduced the Fourth Amendment Protection Act.
Actually, he introduced it last Friday, late, and we went public with it yesterday.
And the cool thing about the Maryland initiative is I talked to this delegate on the phone.
His name is Delegate Smiegel.
And I was saying, look, realistically, do you think you can move this?
And he said, you know what?
I think I can at least get it out of committee.
And when you get something out of committee, then who knows what's going to happen?
And this guy has a history of working with Democrats on civil libertarian issues.
So this is a bill denying material support to the NSA in the NSA's backyard that actually has a good shot at getting some legislative legs.
So that's extremely exciting just in and of itself.
And the real biggie still hadn't dropped yet.
Everybody's waiting for Utah because they've got the data center and they've got that water contract sitting out there.
And I'll just tell your listeners that Utah is very, very close.
It's going to happen.
I just can't tell you when because I don't know yet.
But Utah is going to happen.
And also another state.
So we're going to have at least 15 states.
Is going to happen, you're saying, is going to pass both houses of their legislature?
I think it's going to be introduced.
It's going to be introduced.
Get the bill introduced.
The legislative fight, you know, that's a whole other ball of wax.
The success that we've had on that front is the Arizona passed out of its first committee on, I think it was last week.
So, you know, we're actually seeing a bill moving forward.
So that's the next step.
Once the introductions will start slowing down now as we're getting into the legislative sessions, then we'll start seeing the hearings and the committee votes.
And so then we'll start to get a feel of which of these bills are going to actually be able to get some legs and keep moving.
And Arizona was the first victory having a passage out of the committee.
It was 5-2, Tulsa.
So it wasn't even close.
Now, you know, I'm not one to really ever participate in this kind of politics or, you know, messing around, talking with or trying to lobby state or federal representatives or anybody like that.
Not that I, you know, advise people not to.
It just hasn't really been my thing.
But, you know, it occurs to me that as detached as I imagine, say, for example, the Texas state capitol is for my influence, and of course, you know, the NSA has their thing in San Antonio, and the federal government has a lot of influence over the government of the state of Texas, no doubt about that.
But it doesn't seem, as far as I know, I mean, I guess there are a lot of telecommunications firms and stuff here, but it seems like, you know, maybe the surveillance industrial complex is not so thick here, you know, that it can outlobby just the regular people and businessmen of Texas who have their own interests and keeping their own matters private and would rather not live in a totalitarian society and that kind of thing.
It makes me wonder whether, in other words, what I'm trying to get at is if a bunch of, you know, ideological coalition types came together to really push something like this, would anybody show up to try to stop them?
You know what I mean?
Well, it seems like maybe it's doable.
It is doable.
You know, there is some resistance.
You get people that don't like to have their apple cart bumped around, and that happens with any piece of legislation.
And having gone through the committee process in Arizona, we're kind of getting a feel for where some of the opposition comes from.
And of course, state law enforcement, they don't like bills like this because, you know, they like getting unconstitutionally gathered data from the federal government so that they can have an investigation.
But, you know, you get the police that come in and say, oh, if you do this, there's going to be pedophiles running loose on the streets.
Well, it's ridiculous stuff that they come up with.
And then we've had some university backlash that – I didn't realize that the NSA had abolished that from our society.
That's great news.
Thanks for filling me in.
And, you know, we've had some pushback from some universities that, you know, they like getting the NSA funding to do research and they don't have a problem with selling their souls for some research dollars.
So you get that kind of kickback.
But here's the thing.
It's a tough sell.
Most people don't believe the law enforcement officer when they tell you that, you know, crime is going to run rampant if they can't use unconstitutionally gathered data for the NSA.
Most normal people sit there and go, that's bull crap.
And so it's a pretty tough sell for these people that are opposing this.
And I think that the committee vote, even after all these people get up and, you know, they tell their horror stories, it still ended up being a – like I said, I think it was either a 5-2 or a 4-2 vote.
It wasn't close.
It wasn't contested.
So these kind of arguments fall pretty flat.
So I think you're right.
You know, in a state like Texas, you'll get some pushback.
But I think when this comes up, and I do think it will come up in the legislative session next year, I think it's got a good shot of making it through and passing.
And, again, you know, it's all – ultimately, even if every one of these individual initiatives fail, it's all still to the proper end of educating people about, first of all, like you said, what's going on, and secondly, how wrong it is, and thirdly, avenues that can be taken to try again, get it done next time then.
Exactly.
I had a conversation with Tom Woods a few weeks ago on his radio show, and he made the point – and I think this is a really good point – is if nothing else, what this does is it gets people to start thinking in a more decentralized way.
Instead of running to Congress or running to Washington, D.C. with every problem, to start thinking maybe we can find a solution at the state level.
Maybe we can find a solution at the local level.
Hey, maybe we can find a solution at the individual level.
And to get people thinking more locally and more decentralized, and not everything has to be done through this one giant conglomerate in Washington, D.C.
And I think that's – from the overall big picture, I think that's very important.
I want people to start thinking outside of this giant glob centralization paradigm and start thinking about decentralizing and giving individuals and communities the freedom and autonomy to make their own decisions.
Right.
Okay, so now tell us all about this movement, the group, the organization, the model legislation, how people can join, who they can contact.
Maybe they don't want to talk to their state rep, but maybe they know someone who they think might.
We can get all the information that anybody would ever want at offnow.org.
That's kind of the virtual center of the OffNow campaign.
And there's actually a tab there if you want to get involved.
You can actually click that and we'll find places for you to get involved in the movement.
Essentially what the OffNow campaign is, it's a transpartisan coalition of groups.
It was primarily started by the Tenth Amendment Center.
That's the organization I work with, and then also the Bill of Rights Defense Committee, a great organization based out of D.C. that focuses on civil liberties issues, and a whole bunch of other organizations that have joined the coalition, antiwar.com is on board, Downsize D.C.
I can't even think of all of them.
There's a whole bunch.
And essentially what we're doing is exactly what we've talked about, state and local action to make it more difficult for the NSA to violate your rights.
And the centerpiece of this is the Fourth Amendment Protection Act, which denies the material support to the NSA from any state entity.
We're going to turn off their water.
We're going to turn off their electricity.
We're going to make sure that our public universities aren't being used as research facilities and recruiting grounds.
And perhaps what I think is one of the most important parts of this is that it denies all of this info that's being shared around by the NSA to state and local law enforcement, makes it inadmissible in court.
Oh man, and that's the most important point right there.
Everybody just mull that one over.
Remember about them laundering this information and rewriting how they came upon it, that kind of thing.
Offnow.org, thank you so much for your time, Michael.
Thanks for having me on, Scott.
That's Michael Meharry of the Tenth Amendment Center.
Offnow.org.
Hey y'all, Scott here.
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Hey y'all, Scott Horton here to tell you about this great new book by Michael Swanson, The War State.
In The War State, Swanson examines how Presidents Truman, Eisenhower, and Kennedy both expanded and fought to limit the rise of the new national security state after World War II.
If this nation is ever to live up to its creed of liberty and prosperity for everyone, we are going to have to abolish the empire.
Know your enemy.
Get The War State by Michael Swanson.
It's available at your local bookstore or at Amazon.com in Kindle or in paperback.
Just click the book in the right margin at scotthorton.org or thewarstate.com.
Don't worry about things you can't control.
Isn't that what they always say?
But it's about impossible to avoid worrying about what's going on these days.
The government has used the war on guns, the war on drugs, and the war on terrorism to tear our Bill of Rights to shreds.
But you can fight back.
The Tenth Amendment Center has proven it, racking up major victories.
For example, when the U.S. government claimed authority in the NDAA to have the military kidnap and detain Americans without trial, the nullifiers got a law passed in California declaring the state's refusal to ever participate in any such thing.
Their latest project is offnow.org, nullifying the National Security Agency.
They've already gotten model legislation introduced in California, Arizona, Oklahoma, Missouri, and Kansas, meant to limit the power of the NSA to spy on Americans in those states.
We'd be fools to wait around for the U.S. Congress or courts to roll back, big brother.
Our best chance is nullification and interposition on the state level.
Go to offnow.org, print out that model legislation, and get to work nullifying the NSA.
The hero Edward Snowden has risked everything to give us this chance.
Let's take it.offnow.org Transcription by CastingWords