For Antiwar.com, I'm Scott Horton.
This is Antiwar Radio.
I'm happy to welcome back to the show, Mohamed Sahimi, writes for us at Antiwar.com, and he's a professor of chemical engineering and materials science at the NIOC, professor of petroleum engineering at the University of Southern California, and he's published extensively on Iran's nuclear program and its political developments.
Welcome back to the show, Mohamed.
How are you?
I'm fine.
It's great to be back in your program, Scott.
I'm very happy to have you here.
Let's talk about Jandala.
What is a Jandala?
Well, Jandala is a Sunni group that is active in Iran, a province of Balochistan, which is in the southeastern part of Iran on the border with Pakistan.
Pakistan also has a Balochistan province on the other side of the border, and there has always been a strife in that area.
The Jandala claims that they are fighting for the rights of the Balochis in Iran, who number about one million, and they are mostly Sunnis.
So this is basically a Sunni group that is active in Iran.
But the Iranian government and many people, including myself, believe that Jandala is actually funded and supported by Saudi Arabia and very possibly by the CIA.
Definitely during the George W. Bush administration, there was much evidence that Jandala was supported by the CIA.
And in an article on Antiwar.com that you mentioned, I actually outlined the evidence for the support of the CIA for Jandala.
Right.
Now let's go through some of that.
Your article at Antiwar.com is Jandala and the Geopolitics of Energy.
You should go to original.antiwar.com slash sahimi, S-A-H-I-M-I, and it should forward right on there to this latest article here.
And now you go through.
Let's calculate all our footnotes.
Again, we're talking about this Sunni extremist group, whatever you call them, terrorist group, if they were attacking us, of Sunni radicals who are blowing things up in Iran.
And you're saying there are indications.
We have all these reports that they're actually backed by the CIA.
So let's go down through that list of footnotes like librarians here and make sure that everyone will have the opportunity to double check this highly controversial subject here.
Well, the ABC News reported in April of 2008 that U.S. officials have told ABC that the CIA indirectly supports Jandala by giving it funds through Iranian exiles that are in the Persian Gulf and Europe.
Seymour Harris in June of 2008 had an interview with National Public Radio in which he also said that his sources in the intelligence community and the Pentagon have told him that Jandala and other groups that carry out terrorist attacks within Iran receive support from the United States and its allies either directly or indirectly.
Then there was Robert Barr who told Seymour Harris in an article that Harris published just a week after his interview with National Public Radio.
And remember that Barr is a former CIA agent who was working in the Middle East for 25 years.
And he also told Seymour Harris that he believes that groups like Jandala receive support from the CIA.
Then in October of 2008, almost a year ago, I organized a symposium at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles where I work.
It was about Iran-United States relationship.
And one of the speakers that we brought to USC to speak about the issue was Robert Barr.
And during his speech and the discussions afterwards, he again mentioned that he believes and his understanding is that Jandala receives support from the CIA.
Vice President Cheney went to Pakistan in February of 2007 and met with General Parviz Musharraf who was the president of Pakistan at that time.
And Pakistani officials reported that during the meeting with Musharraf, the subject of Jandala and his operation in Iran's Balochistan came up.
Then when he came back to the United States, he had an interview a couple of weeks after that that I personally watched during which he actually mentioned Jandala.
But instead of referring to them as Jandala terrorists, he referred to them as Jandala guerrillas.
So he was basically trying to give them some sort of legitimacy, distinguishing them from being a terrorist and claiming that they are some sort of freedom fighter or something along those lines.
So there is much evidence that at least during the George W. Bush administration, there was a relationship between the CIA and Jandala.
Okay.
Now, a couple of things here.
I'm not sure.
I might have missed it.
Did you mention the Telegraph article from...
Exactly.
That's another one that you're absolutely right that I mentioned in the article, but I forgot to say.
Well, Andrew Coburn, Alex Coburn's brother at Counterpunch, also had an article.
He actually beat Hirsch to the punch by I think a month or more about the finding that the Democrats on the Intelligence Committees had authorized.
And this is part of what Hirsch's discussion is about on that Fresh Air interview, is that they were using the Joint Special Operations Command to run all this stuff, but they needed the help of the CIA in order to do languages and different logistics and what have you.
And the CIA wouldn't participate without a finding authorizing it.
And so they had to go to the Congress and the Democrats gave them, I believe Andrew Coburn originally reported that it was maybe $300 million and then Hirsch upped it by $100 million or something like that.
But basically it was a few hundred million, I believe, were being appropriated by the Congress to be spent on not particularly just Jandala, but certainly they were mentioned in his reporting there.
Yes.
And that's just one angle.
There is another angle, and that is the Saudi Arabia-Iran relationship, which has deteriorated over the past few years.
And given that Jandala is an extremist Sunni group that people believe is of Salafi type, and we know that the center of Salafism is in Saudi Arabia, it is very likely, in my opinion and based on my reading, in the opinion of other people, that Jandala also received support from Saudi Arabia.
For example, there is a sort of an internal war in Yemen in which the Yemeni government is supported by the Saudi Arabia government, but the majority of Yemeni people are some sort of Shiites.
They are not the type of Shiites that Iranians are, but they are one branch of Shiites.
And it is said that the Iranian government has supported the Yemeni Shiites in their fight with the Yemeni government.
And Saudi Arabia is actually upset about this.
At the same time, Saudi Arabia is worried about Iran's nuclear program and the fact that Iran-United States relationship may improve, which if that happens means that the role of Saudi Arabia and its significance in the view of American policymakers may decrease and Iran may be on ascendance, and that also upsets Saudi Arabia.
So there is an angle of Saudi Arabia here in play that, in my view, is very much linked to what Jandala does.
The other point that I would like to point out is that Jandala emerged in 2003, just when George W. Bush administration invaded Iraq, and he was thinking that just as easily that he thought that he defeated Iraqi regime and occupied Iraq, he could also do the same thing with Iran, and therefore he just started making trouble for Iran and other countries in that region.
And it was just then that Jandala emerged as a terrorist organization and started bombing governmental buildings in Iran in the province of Balochistan.
So there are all sorts of evidence and links that indicate that Jandala is not a group that is operating on its own.
Rather, it is basically an organization that is being used by foreign governments, including the United States and Saudi Arabia, to pressure Iran and probably cause instability in the government.
Now, I would like to point out that this does not mean that the Baluchi minority in Iran has not been discriminated against.
Iran is a country, a large country, with many ethnic groups, one of which is Baluchis.
But these problems have always existed in Iran for many, many decades.
It's not something new.
And Iranian ethnic minorities first consider themselves as Iranian and then consider themselves as belonging to their ethnic group.
So ethnic groups in Iran have always existed.
They have always been complaining about some sort of discrimination.
But they have never actually taken arms the way that Jandala is doing to carry out these terrorist operations, killing a lot of even civilian people.
In one attack, they attacked an ambulance that was carrying injured people in a car accident.
They killed many, many people in that attack alone.
So these are all evidence that Jandala is actually being used by foreign governments to create instability within Iran.
Well, now, would you say that the Americans and the Saudis had created Jandala?
Where's this thing come from?
I seem to remember reading that this guy, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he and Ramzi Youssef, this was their group.
His nephew, Ramzi Youssef, this was their group.
And then what, he broke with them to go join Osama, or what?
That is what I have also read.
And then at what point does the CIA help for this group come into play here?
Well, based on my understanding, Rigi, who is the leader of Jandala, was part of Taliban.
And then around 2001 or 2002, they moved towards Iran because Rigi is a Baluchi.
And they decided to concentrate on what they were doing in Baluchistan.
At the same time, we have to remember that there is a lot of narcotic trafficking from Afghanistan to Pakistan to Iran, province of Baluchistan, that they sent to Iran to pass through Iran to Central Europe.
And my understanding is that the Rigi group, Jandala, has also been involved in drug trafficking.
So there is a very complex web of things that are happening, and it takes time to sort everything out, but your point is well taken.
Rigi used to work or be part of Taliban that was operating in southern Afghanistan and part of Pakistan.
And probably at the beginning of 2001 or 2002, they shifted towards Iran.
Well, now as far as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Ramzi Youssef are concerned, they are from there.
That is established.
I mean, obviously, Laurie Milroy, the crank who says that Ramzi Youssef was really an Iraqi or something, all that has been completely and thoroughly debunked by Peter Bergen for one.
So we know that here are these two guys, the nephew and his uncle.
They're both from this region, but can you tell us what all evidence there actually is or what all reporting there is that they were actually part of Jandala?
Jandala, because that to me is, I don't like conflating Al-Qaeda and the Taliban and Jandala and whatever together.
I like to parse things into the smallest parts I can to understand what the real truth is, you know?
I mean, I don't know whether Jandala or its members or leaders had any direct connection to Al-Qaeda or Al-Qaeda, but my understanding is that they had close cooperation and even part of Taliban or sympathizers of Taliban in Pakistan and southern Afghanistan.
That is established.
I don't remember the exact reference, but that's established.
So there is no question that Jandala members and leadership have had contacts with, have had working relationships and links with Taliban.
Now whether they were linked with Al-Qaeda, I don't know.
I cannot say that that's definitely for sure.
I don't know, but their link with Taliban is for sure and it has existed.
And in fact, the Iranian government used Jandala as another way of Taliban wanting to pressure Iran, because remember, Taliban has always hated Iran.
And in 1998, they killed eight Iranian diplomats and journalists in the city of Mazar Sharif, because of which Iran almost went to war with Afghanistan in 1998.
And so the Iranian government actually used Jandala as sort of a branch of Taliban that is trying to pressure Iran through, you know, stirring up resentment among minorities, Baluchi minorities in southeastern Iran.
So that part I think is well established.
Yeah, it's funny.
It's like Greg Pallas says that really it's the Americans who want the Islamo-fascist Sunni caliphate in the Muslim world run by Saudi Arabia.
And if you're Osama bin Laden, that's kind of coincidental with your interest too.
Obviously, there's a difference over which, you know, who ought to run the thing, a difference of opinion and who ought to run the thing later.
But for both the Zawahiri types of the world and the Republicans and Democrats of the world, big giant Shiite controlled Persia is a giant geographical obstacle to Saudi Arabia dominated, meaning Houston dominated, you know, oil colony in Central Asia.
Oh, I totally agree with that.
They blow up the so-called Iran threat way out of proportion in order to justify what they are doing.
Now, there is another angle to Jandala that I mentioned in my article briefly, but later on I expanded on it.
And that is the fact that the United States oil companies, in particular UNICAP, which is now owned by Chevron, had always wanted to build a pipeline from Central Asia to Afghanistan to Pakistan.
They actually wanted to build it through Iran, which is more economical and shorter and easier to build because Afghanistan is a mountainous country and it's difficult to build it.
But the Clinton administration opposed it.
So they had lobbying in Washington led by Zalmay Khalilzad, who was at that time a consultant for UNICAP oil company and who later became, as you know, ambassador to Afghanistan, Iraq and the United States.
And he was clearly the one in charge telling Karzai what to do all day long when he was there.
But he's not there anymore.
No, he's not there.
But they wanted to build the construct, that pipeline, which would bring the natural gas for Turkmenistan and oil from Kazakhstan to Pakistan and to international markets.
And the Clinton administration actually wanted to sign the agreement, but the Taliban overthrew the government of Afghanistan in 1996.
And when they did that, the State Department issued a statement saying that we regard this development as positive for people of Afghanistan.
That was when Taliban entered Kabul and overthrew the government.
And they wanted to actually sign that agreement to construct a pipeline to Afghanistan.
But then there were a lot of revelations about how women and other groups are treated by Taliban.
And of course, with Madeline Albright, a woman, being secretary of state in the Clinton administration, it was just too embarrassing for the Clinton administration to sign an agreement with Taliban regarding the construction of the pipeline while its own secretary of state was a woman.
So that was put on hold.
Now, on the other hand, there was a competition for that pipeline, which is the pipeline that Iran and Pakistan and India wanted to build, whereby Iran's natural gas from southern Iran would be transferred to Pakistan and India, and perhaps later on to China.
The United States and the George W. Bush administration pressured India to withdraw from the pipeline, at least for the time being.
But Iran and Pakistan went ahead anyway and signed the agreement for constructing the pipeline.
And China has also shown interest in continuing the pipeline from Pakistan to China.
So now, if that pipeline is going to go ahead, that will be in direct competition with the pipeline that someday may be built from Central Asia to Afghanistan and Pakistan.
But that's another angle that many people believe that troubles are being made in Balochistan, because that's where the pipeline will pass through in order to get to Pakistan.
Well, you know, there was the whole thing where Connelisa Rice went and made the deal with the Indians, where even though they have nuclear weapons and they're not members of the Non-Proliferation Treaty, she went and made a deal that we'll help them with their nuclear program, as long as they will not participate in this peace pipeline.
And, you know, the peace pipeline is a good name for it, because, you know, as we all know, where goods do not cross borders, armies eventually will, and all that kind of thing.
If there's one thing that you could do to try to lessen tensions, say, over Kashmir, between India and Pakistan, get their economies wholly dependent on each other, get them trading with each other as much as possible, get a bazillion dollar pipeline running through both countries, so that the people who are invested in those pipelines in both countries will have so much more incentive to pressure their government to maintain cordial relations and not, you know, throw atom bombs at each other, and things like this.
I mean, this is absolutely horrible that the motive, or at least a major part of the motive for all of this, is obstructing something that could, you know, help, you know, save lives.
I mean, there are millions of lives on the balance in that nuclear standoff between India and Pakistan right now.
I mean...
I totally agree with you, and in fact, you mentioned the angle about Pakistan and India, but there's also an angle about Pakistan and Iran, because Iranian leaders, although they don't say it publicly, they are worried about the fact that Pakistan has a nuclear arsenal.
And therefore, they think that by integrating their economy and making extensive commercial relationships with Pakistan, and making them dependent on Iran's energy resources, such as natural gas and oil, the possibility that some radicals in Pakistan may use those nuclear weapons against Iran would be lower, and therefore, as you pointed out, the construction of this pipeline would be a, you know, would be a true contribution to making the people of that region more interested in stability and developing their economy.
And by the way, as you mentioned, the peace pipeline, the pipeline was a peace pipeline, not by Iranians or Pakistanis, but by George Perkovich of Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, named an American who advocated the construction of the pipeline.
Huh, that's interesting.
Usually they're just trying to foment wars.
That's good to hear them back away from that.
Well, we just talked with Donald Lossman, who works for the Department of Defense, although his opinion was solely his own and not the Department of Defense's, but he said, and basically proved it, that the oil will be available.
The American people don't need to worry about which way the pipeline goes.
It's a liquid, it's a world market, and there's a lot of ships, and we'll always be able to buy oil.
The only difference that it makes, which way the pipeline goes, is in state power, and governments control over each other, and of course the cut that the Houston oil companies get to make at the end, or whatever, you know, their particular profits.
But it is not, at all, no American should believe that it's to their personal detriment if the oil is controlled by somebody else, or the pipeline goes this way or that.
This is not the American people's interest that our government is fighting for here, Mohamed.
I totally agree, and in fact, the Iranian government itself has invited the American oil companies to go to Iran, invest in Iran's oil industry, but it has been the United States that has prevented it.
At the same time, as you said, the free flow of oil is there.
There is no impediment to it.
But what people don't realize is that the problems that we have with the Middle East is that the United States government wants to control the energy resources of that area, even if there is no need for the United States to import oil from that part.
Even at a massive loss of, say, trillions and trillions of dollars.
Exactly, and because China and India, that are rapidly coming up as world power, are energy hungry, and they need to import oil and natural gas from the Middle East, and therefore by controlling the Middle East, basically the United States government wants to control access to energy resources by India and China.
In my view, that's one of the root causes of the problem that we have in the Middle East.
Alright everybody, that's Mohamed Sahimi.
You can find what he writes at original.antiwar.com.
The latest article is called Jandala and the Geopolitics of Energy, and you can find the links to virtually all those articles we discussed, the footnotes about Jandala there, and you can find the one other that I brought up, if you just Google Andrew Coburn and Jandala, you'll find it.
Hey, thanks a lot for your time on the show today, Mohamed, I really appreciate it.
Thank you for having me on your program.
